Review: Waltzing Matilda

24 Jul 02 - 08:01 PM (#754073)
Subject: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Jim McLean

Has any one considered that Waltzing Matilda was based on a song by Robert Tannahill? Cheers, Jim Mclean

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24 Jul 02 - 08:07 PM (#754082)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens

Well, no, Jim. Great start to a thread, though.More, please. I will chuck in the often observed fact that the tune of the chorus is only slightly changed from Mozart, cant remember the name of the piece.

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24 Jul 02 - 08:22 PM (#754091)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Jim McLean

Clue! Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielea words Robert Tannahill Air James Barr.

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24 Jul 02 - 08:38 PM (#754098)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

Mozart? - "Experts disagree on who wrote the music but most believe that it's an arrangement by Thomas Bulch of an old Scottish tune called 'Craigielea'."

Consult - http://www.urbanlegends.com/songs/waltzing_matilda.html

Lots of previous mudcat discussions.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

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24 Jul 02 - 08:45 PM (#754103)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens

Well, is there a theory that the tune of Waltzing Matilda is a bit like the tune for Craigielea? From what I recall of the Craigielea tune there's no very obvious connection. But I havent heard the song for a while so I couldnt swear to that, maybe I just never noticed. Did Banjo Paterson say it was to be sung to Craigielea, perhaps? But I guarantee anyone would recognise the connection between W.M. and the Mozart piece, I'm sure whover came up with the tune must have had Mozart in mind, it's too close for coincidence. Tell us more, Jim.

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24 Jul 02 - 08:48 PM (#754106)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens

Anyone able to provide blue clickie's to relevant sheet music?

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24 Jul 02 - 08:53 PM (#754109)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Stewie

As Gargoyle says, there have been previous forum discussions on this. I felt sure there was a fairly recent one, but a forum search failed to unearth it. However, here is a link to a thread a couple of years old with some links to even earlier ones:

Click

--Stewie.

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24 Jul 02 - 08:59 PM (#754114)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

Waltzing Matilda is covered pretty thoroughly in this website from the Australian National University: Matilda
Copies of original score, Ms, the three major variations. The article notes that it is quite a stretch to Barr's "Craigielea." versions and history
There is a thread, several months back, that covers the story in some detail.

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24 Jul 02 - 09:10 PM (#754121)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

Thread 46011 has discussion: Waltzing Talk

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24 Jul 02 - 09:33 PM (#754130)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

The best discussion was:

Craigielee/Waltzing Matilda

www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=3857

Blue Clickys are for Wusies - learn to cut and paste.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

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24 Jul 02 - 09:39 PM (#754133)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens

All very interesting. Like a lot of stories about folksongs (if soemthing as well documentedas this could be called a folksong)thevarious accounts leave unanswerable questions. Christine McPherson's tune is reputedto have been said by her to be what she remembered of the Craigielea tune, as arranged by a man called Bulch, played at a concert some time previously. We dont know how good her memory was, but the fact is that her tune isnt the Craigielea tune. Another fact is she hadnt mastered musical notation, and her manuscript doesnt make sense(in the chorus anyway).Howeer, you can see roughly what shemeant, and it is undoubtedly the basis of the modern tune. I would guess that, whether or not she could or couldnt remember anything of Craigielea, she certainly had a bit of Mozart in her head for the chorus. Or possibly the bloke who reworked her tune was remembering the Mozart, as his version of the tune is closer to Mozart than hers was. A lot of ifs and buts!
However, going back to the original topic, what is undoubtedly 100% certain true is that Robert Tannahill had no hand in Waltzing Matilda, words or music. Well, probably.

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24 Jul 02 - 09:40 PM (#754135)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

3857: Craigielea
Born-again Wusie

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25 Jul 02 - 01:26 AM (#754211)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Sheila

What's a "Wusie?"

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25 Jul 02 - 02:58 AM (#754239)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

Considering that she played the "tune" on an auto-harp - there is a lot of latitude.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

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25 Jul 02 - 10:01 AM (#754370)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton

G'day Greg and Gargoyle,

Considering that she was a pianist, attempting to play a tune from memory on someone else's auoharp ... she did bloody well!

In another thread, I mentioned that I have arranged each stage of the tune, from Barr's original to the well-known Marie Cowan arramgement in sequence, in the same key and MIDI voicing) ... and the progression is obvious ... and typical of a tune being moved into new arrangemets &c (Bulch's was a "quick march' arrangement of a miltary band version).

Anyway, if you PM an e-mail address to me, I will send a PDF or GIFF image of the dots and a MIDI file of the notes for you to compare.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

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25 Jul 02 - 10:08 AM (#754377)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens

Bob have you included the bit of Mozart in your medley?

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25 Jul 02 - 10:15 AM (#754379)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST

Bob, thank you, this sounds interesting your e-mail address is?

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25 Jul 02 - 10:36 AM (#754393)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

Greg - you are certainly insistant that she certainly had a bit of Mozart in her head for the chorus.

What is your chapter and verse for this statement AND most importantly, what is the identity of the Mozart piece you believe was purloined? i.e. Don Giovanni Scena 6 Atto II Scena: 1

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

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25 Jul 02 - 11:08 AM (#754404)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens

Gargoyle, this is the problem. I had hoped by now someone would have written in and pointed out the name of the piece. I am relying purely on memory, possibly from as long as 40 years ago. My father put this record on and said"Gregor( as I was known in those days) what is that the tune of?" And I said "Waltzing Matilda", as would anyone else who heard it. And he went on and referred to is as a familiar fact/hypothesis in musical circles that this piece must have influenced the composer of Waltzing Matilda. And the trouble is I dont listen to a lot of Mozart, and I've never heard (or heard of) this piece of music since. I would guess it was chamber music, a string quartet or a piano quintet, something of that nature. And Iam damn sure it was the chorus of WM it was like, not the verse.And I'm almost certain it was more like the Cowan than the McPherson version..
I fully appreciate that may have dreamed thewhole incident, which is why I'm hoping for corroboration.I did once dream that the tune"Immortal Invisible" was the original tune for the song "The Princess Royal" so I know these things can happen.

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25 Jul 02 - 01:01 PM (#754467)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

I've got Don Giovanni and I will check it. My ear is not the best, but I'll try to catch the tune.

Here are Patterson's original words and a midi of the "Queensland version" on the University of Queensland website: Waltzing Matilda

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25 Jul 02 - 01:16 PM (#754474)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

Reread the posts and realized that I mis-read- the Mozart was not identified. Too much Mozart; it would be the needle in the haystack jobbie.

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25 Jul 02 - 01:40 PM (#754490)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

The original score of W. M. is shown on the ANU website. Maybe MacPherson's tune is different enough to be considered "original." The score includes the chorus: Original score

Neither website I have linked to mention Mozart in connection with the tune. The one linked here says it is not easy to pick out the relationship to "Cragielea."

Notice the comment about "copyright." The Cowan version is still © in the United States. There is discussion about that in the website (also discussed in one of the previous threads).

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25 Jul 02 - 02:08 PM (#754499)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,greg stephens

I have to say that I find it highly curious thatno-one else in the world seems to be familiar with this piece of Mozart.Perhaps my father was taking the piss out of me He was a classical musician, and disapproved of my skiffle/folk obsession). Maybe he had one of those joke recordings, "Fantasia on Waltzing Matilda" in the style of Mozart. But I'm sure I can remember looking at the sleeve: and I'm surethe melody was only like Waltzing Matilda, not variations on Waltzing Matilda. I've had a huge search on Waltzing Matilda/Mozart things and failed to find anything.i dont think I suffer from False Memory Syndrome: surely I'd have come up with something more wild than this.
Unfortunately my father is not immediately available for consultation, though I suppose I could get him to rap out the k-number on the table.

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25 Jul 02 - 02:20 PM (#754505)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Jim Mclean

I'm sorry I started this latest discussion as I didn't know it had been thoroughly researched earlier. I was born just around the corner from Tannahill's cottage in Paisley and our tenement building faced the graveyard where he is buried. We used to hide there after stealing apples from the Minister's garden! My mother was Paisley born and bred and used to sing Thou Bonnie Wood of Craigielea often. I first noticed the connection with Waltzing Matilda over 50 years ago as they both share obvious passages in verse and chorus. Waltzing Matilda is an original tune in its own right but your ears have to be painted on if you can't hear the similarities with Carigielea.

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25 Jul 02 - 03:08 PM (#754528)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

Greg, unless you find someone who is very familiar with Mozart's music- an authority, no less- finding the bit of melody again is, as I said, a needle in the haystack search. He wrote so many tuneful melodies and bits of melody (some borrowed from folk song or composed melody and developed into something else). Then again, if the melody is simple, it could just be coincidence. I have quite a bit of Mozart in my cd -lp collection, but it is only a fragment of his output.

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26 Jul 02 - 02:33 AM (#754783)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

Jim Mclean - PLEASE do not be "sorry" for starting this thread...it has provided precisely what you asked for "a review" (and a good one at that - easily in the top 20% of all mudcat posted threads IMHO.)

Greg - the good news is....there are now 20 more attentive ears listening for the Mozart phrase....perhaps the source will re-surface over the next three years...I know I will begin listening for the obsure tune blended into an unplayed CD.

PublicBroadcastingServiceRadio (US) airs a weekly series about music (BBS???) about music trivia - this sounds like precisely one of their type questions. Anyone know the name of the classical music radio quiz show?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

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26 Jul 02 - 03:21 AM (#754791)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens

thanks for ideas, Gargoyle. I seriously want to find this, though it feels like chasing a will-o-the-whisp(that doesnt look right, spelling or punctuation). I am writing to the Ned Sherrin Music Quiz on BBC Radio 4.... they must have the listeners who know this sort of thing.

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26 Jul 02 - 09:35 AM (#754909)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton

G'day Jim McLean, Greg, Garg and GUEST,

Christina wasn't listening to Mozart ... she had heard Bulch's quick march arrangement at Warrnambool races the year before. What she played ... at least what she wrote out for various people (I have examined two or three holograph versions) has either been "mis-remembered" ... or adjusted to the words.

The well-known Waltzing Matilda - the Marie Cowan arrangement is three steps away from Barr's original ... and progressive changes appear at each step. If you can't PM (eg GUEST) send you e-mail address to me at and I'll give you the several steps in whatever form you can comprehend.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

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26 Jul 02 - 09:42 AM (#754912)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens

McPherson or Cowan may well have listened to Mozart.Obviously I dont know that they did, but I dont know that they didnt either.

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26 Jul 02 - 01:40 PM (#755041)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

Bob, almost sounds like the citation for the music should be Barr arr. Bulch arr. MacPherson rearranged Cowan for the currently used version- or some such string.

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26 Jul 02 - 03:08 PM (#755085)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: EBarnacle1

This issue of common sounds [not necessarily origins] is the sort of thing that Peter Schikele loves to hunt for.

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26 Jul 02 - 08:44 PM (#755243)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

The BBC's Ned Sherrin Music Quiz

That's the one - I think they will love the question, and know the answer.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

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27 Jul 02 - 10:29 AM (#755459)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton

G'day again Jim McLean,

To get way back to your original post

... the Belfast group/family The McPeakes sang the song that almost beacame the standard last song in folk clubs in the 1960s/'70s Will Ye Go Lassie, Go? ... and it is based on a song from Tannahill's Braes of Balquidder

... and the Republican Irish have a deep and religious respect for the song (written for a Dion Boucicault play) Wearing of the Green - tune borrowed from another setting of a Tannahill poem!

What is it about Tannahill that unites us all?

Regards,

Bob Bolton

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27 Jul 02 - 12:04 PM (#755479)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Jim McLean

Hi BoB, As a record producer I recorded Nigel Denver singing The Braes O' Balquhither (as Tannahill spelled it) to the original tune suggested by him The Three Carles O Buchanan. The McPeakes version obviously 'went over the water' to the Northern Irish who are sometimes called Ulster Scots. I knew the McPeakes very well, even old Francie who is sadly gone. His son, youg Francie has also passed away leaving another 'young Francie'whom I last saw in my house here in London about 10 years ago. You bring back memories! I also recorded Jimmie Logan, the Scottish comedian, singing the McPeakes' version. I think the connection is immigrant Scottish/Irish travellers(?) in Australia. Cheers, Jim Mclean

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27 Jul 02 - 12:21 PM (#755488)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: greg stephens

Jim. interested in your comment about a tune called the "Three Carles of Buchanan" being Tannahill's chosen tune for Braes of Balquidder". Is this the same tune hat you see "Braes of Balquidder" set to in standard Scottish song books? I ask because that tune(which is also related to the McPekes version) is itself a varaition on a much earlier pre-Tannahill tune also called "The Braes of Balquidder"..earliset version I have seen was spelt "Brays of Bochiter" c1730). So is the "Three Carles of Buchanan an alternative title for this old tune?

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27 Jul 02 - 04:52 PM (#755589)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Jim McLean

Hi Greg, The only other tune I know other than the McPeakes' is the one in Johnson's Musical Museum and supplied by Robert Burns to a song called 'The Braes O Balquidder' but this is unlike the McPeakes' or The three Carles O' Buchanan. The Three Carles ... is the one used for The Braes of Balquhidder in The Songs of Scotland, melodies edited by Colin Brown. I merely extended the song where the final refrain ends ' ..'mang the bonnie bloomin heather' last note Fsharp, I repeat Fsharp, E, D. to the phrase Will ye go. Cheers, Jim

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28 Jul 02 - 03:48 AM (#755833)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton

G'day again Jim McLean,

You are, of course, right in pointing to the Scots immigration in many new coutries (and we'll stop stirring the Wearing o' the Green pot ...). The early keenness for Craigielea in Australian circles is clearly traceable to Gov. Macquarie ... and more so, to his wife who loved the song/tune and made sure Lachlan supplied the music to the Marine Corps bands.

One problem in Australian folk circles (and we are not on our Pat Malone) is that so many people ... and bands - think the Irish wrote everything and ignore the Scots ... and the English ... and the Welsh ... and the Germans ... and the Poles ... and the Dutch ... and the the rest of European settlement in the this country.

(As for the people who were here for 60,000 years before all this ... who?)

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton

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28 Jul 02 - 09:20 PM (#756125)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

Reminds me of a program I once heard about the Grand Old Opry- the favorite American country-bluegrass venue for many years. Quite a few of the performers or their parents were from eastern Europe, some with changed names. People forget that good fiddle players and other musicians were widespread in Europe outside of those coastal islands we talk about so much.

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29 Jul 02 - 06:39 AM (#756278)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: rich-joy

When Ewan MacColl recorded Tannahill's "The Braes o' Balquhither / Balquither" on "Traditional Songs and Ballads" (with Peggy Seeger - Folkways, FW 8760, 1964), he remarked that it had "passed into the Scots country singer's repertoire" and that the Nthn Ireland's "Wild Mountain Thyme" "appeared to be a version of Tannahill's song". MacColl says he learned it from Betsy Henry of Auchterarder.

The '97 Mudcat posting of "The Braes o' Balquidder" by Bruce O., says that there was a recording on Folk Lyric by Betsy Miller, "Ewan MacColl's mother".

Wolfgang, in a '99 posting, say that it's pronounced "Balwhither" (according to the Tannahill Weavers website).

The "robokopp" folk lyrics site, mentions the melody as "The Three Carls o' Buchanan" when they posted the lyrics ...

Oh Sorry, was this a "Waltzing Matilda" thread???!!!
(now I wasn't the one who started Waltzing Matilda out the door here, you know!!!)
It's just that I've always liked this song - and grew to HATE that old chestnut "Will Ye Go Lassie, Go"!!!

Cheers! R-J

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30 Jul 02 - 04:58 AM (#756806)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Percustard

I know a band who performs Craigielea and Matilda as a medley (tunes seamlessly joined together). Starts in 4.4 goes to 5.4 then to 12.8 and back to 5.4 (percussion didge cello flute vocals acoustic guitar).

It works very well live. Proof of the pudding and all that!!

Tursacan is the band, by the way.

Keep and ear out for us!

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30 Jul 02 - 05:01 AM (#756809)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Percustard

By the way Bob...I'd like a copy of your MIDI file.

I will go back to the Mudcat instructions and try and figure out the Personal Message thing again.

Seeya

Mark

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30 Jul 02 - 08:27 AM (#756860)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton

G'day Percustard,

They're on their way to you ... 5 stages of the tune (but you can ignore the last one!).

Regards,

Bob Bolton

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30 Jul 02 - 08:11 PM (#757240)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Percustard

Thanks Bob.

Got 'em.

And, everyone else, I do recommend having a listen to Bobs Midi compilation of the tunes for Waltzing Matilda and its origins.

It is quite interesting to hear and read about 200 years of song evolution in 5 minutes!

I find this kind of thing fascinating.

That last tune Bob, more info please?

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30 Jul 02 - 09:49 PM (#757249)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

Bob - Please post your e-mail address to this thread.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

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30 Jul 02 - 10:26 PM (#757264)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Percustard

I suggest joining Mudcat and using the personal message system.

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30 Jul 02 - 11:22 PM (#757285)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton

G'damn ... er ... G'day GUESTing gargoyle,

It looks like the address fell off my 26 July posting! Maybe I bracketed it with 'chevron' brackets and left out the safety spaces.

Here is it - free of traps (I hope):
bobbolton@netspace

Regards,

Bob Bolton

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30 Jul 02 - 11:27 PM (#757286)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton

Ooops ... except the trap of paying too much attention to the lunchtime yoghurt ... and not enough to typing (and proofreading!

That should have been:
[e-mail]

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton

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31 Jul 02 - 10:41 PM (#757873)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Percustard

Far be it from me to advise on membership.

I drop in and out of guesthood all the time.

Sometimes I just get too cocky.

seeya

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01 Aug 02 - 08:30 AM (#758045)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Teribus

Over the years I've bought a number of editions of "The Man from Snowy River and Other Works" by A. B. Paterson. In one of them the tune is stated has being taken from a soldiers marching song from the time of Marlborough.

If that is true it would most likely be from the period 1702 - 1712. Mozart lived between 1756 and 1791.

I have heard Waltzing Matilda sung to three different tunes and do not know the one referred to in the notes mentioned above.

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01 Aug 02 - 09:04 AM (#758058)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton

G'day Teribus,

The furphy about Who'll ba a Soldire for Marlborough has been discussed a number of times in this forum. It arose from post WW I memories of the descendants of soldiers who may have remebered Dad or Grand-dad singing such a song. It has never been heard of before Australians sang Waltzing Matilda widely in WW I ... and probably started as a British Army parody ... and was misunderstood by later hearers.

No such song has been collected earlier, despite intensive interest in UK song on the part of the Cecil Sharp, the EFDSS and other romantics of that era. Back when the actual story of the composition of Waltzing Matilda was murky (for a lot of even murkier reasons!) speculation "invented" this false tale. I currently lack the energy to dig out and link the older threads ... but I may have to, in the end!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

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04 Aug 02 - 09:00 PM (#759826)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Percustard

There are many threads on the mixup between tunes for Waltzing Matilda.

Here's a start:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=3857#241337

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=21239#226918

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=28379#351946

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=13177#108322

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=29578#374716

The tenacity of myth and half truth and the power of PR.

I reckon Waltzing Matilda was actually based on hunting tune from Tierra Del Fuego and the words were written by Henry Lawson Norwegian Grandmother!

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04 Aug 02 - 11:35 PM (#759869)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton

G'day,

Percustard: "... I reckon Waltzing Matilda was actually based on ..." Not bad - I've just heard that the new Trad & Now folk magazine (about to be launched) has asked Dave de Hugard to write up his ideas on the origins of Waltzing Matilda ... That should be good for a new Swedish origins theory at the very least!

Gargoyle: I got your e-mail ... I will send you the music files, but I've been trying to unearth the references you requested ... somewhere in my book files (about 2985 more to look through!). I will get back to you.

Regards(les)s,

Bob bolton

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05 Aug 02 - 12:32 AM (#759878)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

Jumpin Jehosephat Mr. Bolton! There is a misunderstanding.

My e-mail was unclear. I am not seeking a dissertation with references...only what you agreed to send to Percustard Date: 30-Jul-02 - 05:01 AM

By the way Bob...I'd like a copy of your MIDI file.

And YOUR replay to Percustard They're on their way to you ... 5 stages of the tune (but you can ignore the last one!).

Send them at your convenience - just forward what you provided to Percustard.

Sincerely greatful,
Gargoyle

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05 Aug 02 - 02:31 AM (#759900)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Teribus

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your posting above. The "Soldier for Marlborough", or the "Bold Recruiting Sergeant", I know is fairly recent and is not the original. One of the regulars at a folk club in Portsmouth, knows the guy who wrote it.

The first copy of Paterson's works I had was given to me by an Australian who was on the same Ops & Weapons Course as myself when I was in the navy. In the second book I bought there was a note about the tune I referred to in my post above. By the date of that edition the note would have pre-dated the writing of "Soldier for Marlborough" by at least fifteen years.

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05 Aug 02 - 08:55 AM (#759977)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton

G'day Teribus,

I probbaly got a bit incoherent there ... I should emphasise that the rumour of a separate, older, "good honest English" source for Waltzing Matilda has lurked about since the end of WW II ... and been mulled over by a number of folklorists.

I believe it simply arises from the active parody instincts of soldiers in the interminable boring times between the moments of panic. Probably as a parody by English soldiers tired of Aussies singing Waltzing Matilda yet again! The later misinterpretation arise from quite common extensions of antiquity given to immediate ancestors' stories and songs.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

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05 Aug 02 - 12:35 PM (#760094)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: IanC

For a bit more history of "The Craigielee March" and its writer (uncertain whether it's based on Tannahill's song, but seems likely), there's a useful web page about Thomas E. Bulch (1863-1930). In summary, Bulch wrote under the nom de plume of Godfrey Parker and the Craigielee March was dedicated to his wife's grandmother, born Elizabeth Craigie.

It looks as thought the original sheet music may have survived in some brass band's archive - possibly whatever became of Bulch's Model Band, Ballarat. He appears to have been a well known brass band composer.

:-)
Ian

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14 Sep 13 - 08:37 AM (#3558852)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Iain Pollock

As you all appear to be aware, the song Waltzing Matilda, which is NOT a waltz by the way, originated from a song written for the Craigielea poem by Robert Tannahill. I have in my possession the book of Tannahill poems published in 1817, which contains the Craigielea poem, and other works written by him. It's called 'Poems and Songs chiefly in the Scotish Dialect by Robert Tannahill'. Note the spelling of the word Scotish! It also contains a fairly long biography of the life, and death, of the great poet as a preface. It is the fourth edition of the works, which I think gained popularity as Tannahill died in 1810, probably sparking off renewed interest in his works. He apparently destroyed his manuscripts before committing suicide, but, thankfully, his friends still had copies, which they collated for publication. (Big Yellow Taxi Syndrome!). I have just had the book professionally re-bound, at great expense, as it was getting a bit time-worn. Interest, and comments, anyone?

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14 Sep 13 - 10:12 PM (#3558986)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Sandra in Sydney

Gidday, Iain

That book is a treasure, you are lucky to have it. 30-odd years ago a cousin had the family bible re-bound (also at great expense) so it can survive another century or 2 or 3 ...

By-the-way, the term "Waltzing Matilda" refers to wandering about looking for work (or not looking for work, just a handout) - it's not a dance tune. The definition given in the Australia Dictionary is "To walk or wander aimlessly in the bush or country."

My friend Dennis O'Keeffe has spent 20 years researching the song & you might like to have a look at his Waltzing Matilda site

sandra

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15 Sep 13 - 04:41 AM (#3559026)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Jim McLean

I'm certain this has been covered before. Tannahill wrote the words to Thou Bonnie Wood o' Craigilea only. The music was written by James Barr. I noticed the connection between the melodies of both songs many years ago.. I was born and brought up in Paisley, living just over the wall from Tannahill's grave, and passed his cottage every day when going to school. A marvellous poet whose footsteps in Paisley and its environs I have trod in my youth.

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15 Sep 13 - 08:20 AM (#3559051)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Iain Pollock

I also have a book of about the same vintage as the Tannahill one, and it is a collection of poems by Robert Fergusson, who was a contemporary of Tannahill's. They must have been hard up for names back then, as they were both called Robert, and they also knew Robert Burns, who is the most famous 'Robert' of all, as you will be aware. When you read Tannahill or Fergusson you can hear Burns coming through loud and clear, as they all had the same style, which was probably par for the course back then.   I say this at the risk of offending Burns fans and scholars, but the words speak for themselves. I understand that they knew each other, and this is not surprising due to the proximity of their haunts in Scotland, and the slow speed of communication in those days. The Tannahill book also has a copper-plate signature of one James Ferguson 1823 in the flyleaf, and I assume that this would have been the first owner of the book, probably received as a gift, thereby further authenticating it's origin.

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15 Sep 13 - 10:47 PM (#3559170)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton

G'day Iain Pollock,

Tunes set to several of Tannahill's poems have persisted for centuries in various localities ... which have adopted whatever word / tune setting as a "local" song of regard (in ... at the very least: Australia / Northern Ireland / Canada if I recall the various different song/settings).

The story of the composition of Waltzing Matilda is now dragged out of most of the obfuscation arising from Paterson's relationships! One of the separate elements that has been lost under the destruction brought on Germany by their involvement in two World Wars is the German element - recognised by Paterson.

This is the German Journeyman's period "Auf der Walz" ... travelling round acquiring skills before being allowed back home to set up as a tradesman. Such journeymen carried their tools and belonging in a composite blanket roll / pack ... called by the soldiers' cognomen "Mathilde". I'm assured the song exists ... even persists ... but I have not found a reliable German source for it!

This associates withPaterson's surreptitiously slipping in a jibe at Bob MacPherson and his probable complicity in the death of the Germanic "swagman" - 'Dutchy Hoffmeister ... who had been involved in torching the MacPherson woolshed.

It appears, from later police evidence (gathered by three troopers and the squatter MacPherson ...!) that 'Dutchy' committed suicide ... by somehow shooting himself in the back of the head with his own rifle!

It is also interesting that, in later poetic works by Paterson, there are several (different) snide references to (different ... ?) persons of (~) the surname MacPherson!

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton

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16 Sep 13 - 09:21 AM (#3559308)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Iain Pollock

Dear Bob, thank you for further enlightening me on the WM saga! Isn't it incredible how much information begins to surface once you start digging a little deeper? I teach music, and it saddens and alarms me that few, if any, young people even know about Banjo and Waltzing Matilda, not to mention The Man From Ironbark (my favourite!). I'm afraid that our culture is quickly being diluted, and we are going to lose it altogether if some of us don't try to keep it alive! I certainly try to do my bit whenever I can. "What are the schools doing?", I ask. It only takes one generation, and the gap becomes un-closeable (is that a new word I have coined?). Cheers! Iain.

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24 Sep 13 - 11:28 PM (#3561042)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton

G'day again Iain,

It just struck me (as I was looking to leave a "trace" on this thread) ... that on "14 Sep 13 - 08:37 AM", above, you referred to: ... "the song Waltzing Matilda, which is NOT a waltz by the way ...:. Of course I did then drop in a reference to the German Journeyman's period "auf der walz" ... making a 'circular' visit around distant trade workshops - to pick up extra trade skills before he is allowed to return to his home town ... and progress to "tradesman" status.

I was probably skirting around the fact that Paterson's 'crush' on Christina MacPherson had obviously strained quite a few relationships ... and Paterson seems to have been accusing Bob MacPherson of complicity in "removing" one of the militant shearers who had been involved in 'torching' his woolshed - during the Shearers' Strike.

He had heard the Germanic phrase "Auf der walz applied to swagmen, looking for piecework ... and the Germanic name of the deceased / suicide ... ? / ??? is clearly intentionally linked!

I'm afraid this popular Australian song has a shadier history than any of the convicts / 'transports' of the initial (convict) era of Australia!

Regard(les)s

BobB

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13 Oct 13 - 02:50 AM (#3566473)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,Iain Pollock

Dear Bob,
         I just think it's funny how WM nearly became our National Anthem, and how 'only in Australia' could we have a NA which tells us nothing about ourselves apart from a bloke committing suicide after stealing a sheep, and which is called Waltzing da-di-da, and isn't even a waltz! It also makes me smile, tempered with not a little alarm, when I realise how few people actually know all the words, and how even fewer know what a billabong, jumbuck or squatter are! I get a bit worried when I find that our national culture and heritage are quickly disappearing under the pressure of so many influences. We don't even have a national dress, apart from shorts, thongs and a beer-can in a stubby-holder! Cheers! Iain.

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13 Oct 13 - 08:38 AM (#3566525)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GUEST,gutcher

Ian Pollock--I see from your last post that you reside in Australia, The name Pollock is of course well known in Scotland especially in the parishes of Lochwinnoch and Beith which are both within walking distance from where Tannahill resided in Paisley.
Tannahill knew the area well and indeed, following the death of his father, his mother moved to Boghall, Gateside, Beith, to keep house for her brother, Mathew Pollock, the last of the name of a long line of lairds of that small estate and Tannahill when walking to visit his mother passed the warlock craggy and the linn mentioned in his song "Are Ye Sleepin Maggie" both of which lie about a third of a mile bellow my house.
A small point, in one of your previous posts you mentioned Fergusson, Burns and Tannahill as if they were contemporaries this is of course not the case.
PS--am at present some forty miles from my books etc. so I may have mixed Mathew up with his father and have not worked out yet how to retrieve the emails from my home computer.

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13 Oct 13 - 11:37 AM (#3566556)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Jim McLean

Gutcher, The Linn mentioned is a small pool which suddenly appears in the 'Glen', an area just off the Neilston Road which leads to the Gleniffer braes, going West. It's not really a wild place but compared to the gentleness of Paisley's Braes, it would be easy to imagine, (poetically) in a bleak, wet night that the crags (rocky places) were menacing, highlighted by owl noises! I spent my childhood running around the Braes as an escape from tenement life in Canal Street and can easily identify with Tannahill's feelings.

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13 Oct 13 - 12:02 PM (#3566561)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Jim McLean

After his father's death, Tannahill's mother lived with him in Paisley until his own tragic demise.

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13 Oct 13 - 03:06 PM (#3566599)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Gutcher

Jim,my information on Tannahill came verbally from my late neighbour, George Kerr, Hill of Fullwoodhead, Beith. These Kerrs were descended from the Kers of Kersland, Dalry.[just down the road] who were counted the oldest family of the name in Scotland. George had his matriculated coat of arms and like myself was keenly interested in the traditional lore of the countryside with his lands marching on the lands of Mill of Beith on which lands are the falls and linn mentioned in the song. The Warlock Craggy stands about one hundred yards North of the falls on the lands of Knowe on the other side of the burn which forms the boundary between Ayrshire and Renfrewshire.
His oral story on Tannahill I found confirmed when I purchased a copy of "Ponts Cunningham" and I believe there is some further information on the subject in a computer article on Lochwinnoch.
When I get back home I will dig out chapter a verse in Pont.
Joe.

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13 Oct 13 - 04:32 PM (#3566618)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Jim McLean

I await your reply, Gutcher. I did a considerable amount of research on Tannahill and I know his parents were married in Beith but everything else I have read, Motherwell, Ramsay, R A Smith, shows that he moved into his mothers's house in Queen Street, Paisley, after his father died. The Linn, is well known to Paisley people and a hundred years after he died the people of Paisley celebrated his birth with a huge procession which took in the Linn, and most of Central Paisley. Without doubting your friend, verbal tradition is often coloured with agenda.
Regards,
Jim

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13 Oct 13 - 08:36 PM (#3566662)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bob Bolton

G'day again Iain Pollock,

It's not particularly relevant to the discussion of a SONG... but you have (~) reiterated that the song: "...tells us nothing about ourselves apart from a bloke committing suicide after stealing a sheep, and which is called Waltzing da-di-da, and isn't even a waltz!"

Of course ... it's a song, not a dance ... and it clearly isn't about any dance. The phrase heard by Paterson "... auf der waltz ..." or, maybe, Australianised as "on the waltz" was a term used to descibe, in Australia of the day - and, particularly that area of Southern Queensland, the dreary circuit of casual jobs and (hoped-for) handouts that sustained the swagman ... or any unemployed wanderer.

Historically it was ( ... and, in some German trades / areas, remains...) an expression covering wandering enforced, or at least required, by economic or trade requirements - something rather characteristic of the hard-working and strictly organised Germans!

The associations that accrued through Paterson's lovelife's mishaps are not really our concern ... except that they do lurk beneath and inform the history of one of our best known songs!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

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13 Oct 20 - 06:00 AM (#4075348)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: GerryM

An actual (humorous) review of Waltzing Matilda: http://www.valerieparv.com/paterson.html

It starts,

Dear Ms Paterson,

Reference: your manuscript Waltzing Matilda

We regret that it has taken us two years to get back to you on this but we did want to give your manuscript every consideration. Twelve editors, the postman and the cleaner have now appraised it and we offer these comments:

You did well to get the hero on stage as quickly as possible, within the first four words in fact. This is commendable but we have reservations about your description of him as 'jolly'. This is hardly a heroic image and having him camp (admittedly by a billabong) can have unfortunate connotations, given our readers' preference for demonstrably heterosexual heroes.

The location, under the coolibah tree, is fine, provided you supply clear definitions of such terms for our overseas readership. While the hero's name, Andrew, is acceptable, we find your repeated usage of the diminutive, Andy - as in Andy sang, Andy watched, Andy waited while his billy boiled - tends to demean him as a hero. We would advise usage of his full name in future drafts.

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26 Oct 20 - 01:53 AM (#4076866)
Subject: RE: Review: Waltzing Matilda
From: Bruce D

After re-reading this thread on Waltzing Matilda, there are a couple of points to be made.

- At the time that Paterson was meant to write Waltzing Matilda he was touring Australia and collecting material for his book "Old Bush Songs" - Australian premier Folklorist John Meredith, in researching his book (co-authored by Hugh Anderson)"Folk song of Australia and the men and women who sang them" found a number of older people (1940/50's) who had remembered alternate verses and versions of Waltzing Matilda and they claimed to learnt them prior to Paterson publishing Waltzing Matilda (note most were fragments and not a complete song). BTW, Back in the 1980's prior to the Australian Bi-centenial the decenants of Paterson took legal action against anybody who questioned if Paterson wrote Waltzing Matilda.

Bruce D

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