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Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)

14 Aug 02 - 05:45 AM (#765013)
Subject: Lyr Add: JOHN BALL (Sydney Carter)
From: DG&D Dave

JOHN BALL or JOHN BULL
(Sydney Carter)

Who will be the lady,
Who will be the lord,
When we are ruled
By the love of another? Tell me,
Who will be the lady,
Who will be the lord,
In the light that is coming
In the morning.

CHORUS
    Sing, John Bull
    And tell it to them all -
    Long live the day that is dawning!
    And I'll crow like a cock,
    I'll carol like a lark,
    For the light that is coming
    In the morning.

Eve is the lady,
Adam is the lord,
When we are ruled
By the love of another, oh it's
Eve is the lady,
Adam is the lord,
In the light that is coming
In the morning.

CHORUS

All shall be ruled
By fellowship I say,
All shall be ruled
By the love of one another,
All shall be ruled
By fellowship I say,
In the light that is coming
In the morning.

CHORUS

Labour and spin
For fellowship I say,
Labour and spin
For the love of one another.
Labour and spin
For fellowship I say,
And the light that is coming
In the morning.

CHORUS

@religious

Written by Sidney Carter
Recorded on Steeleye Span album: Lovely In The Dances - Songs Of Sidney Carter

Submitted by: DMB

14 Aug 02 - 05:54 AM (#765017)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball or John Bull
From: McGrath of Harlow

John Ball, nothing whatsoever to do with John Bull. An interesting variety of mondegreen.

Here is a link to William Morris's Dream of John Ball.Well worth reading.

14 Aug 02 - 06:04 AM (#765020)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball or John Bull
From: DG&D Dave

Thanks for the info. I was confused by the chorus lyric containing John Bull or is that a misprint on the steeleye lyric website?

14 Aug 02 - 06:45 AM (#765030)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball or John Bull
From: IanC

Just for info. John Ball was a C14th "Hedge Priest" involved in the English "Peasants' Revolt" of 1381. There's a good summary of the background here with links to manuscript versions of John Ball's texts.

The song is essentially taken from Ball's most famous text ("John Ball's Sermon Theme"):

"Whan Adam dalf, and Eve span, Who was thanne a gentilman?"

:-)
Ian

14 Aug 02 - 09:13 AM (#765074)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball or John Bull
From: Malcolm Douglas

See also this earlier discussion: John Ball. As you may know, the song used to be in the DT but was withdrawn at the request of the holders of the American and Canadian rights. (JOHN BALL)

14 Aug 02 - 09:22 AM (#765082)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball or John Bull
From: Snuffy

As were all the other Sidney Carter songs in the DT.

14 Aug 02 - 10:42 AM (#765109)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball or John Bull
From: Alio

Just for interest as I sing that song, why was it withdrawn?

14 Aug 02 - 11:22 AM (#765140)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball or John Bull
From: McGrath of Harlow

Because that's what the people who own the copyright wanted.

The background to that probably relates to the hassles with Michael Flatley over his assumption that it was a traditional song and that he needn't pay anything for using it in his dancing circus.

Not that getting a song withdrawn from the DT makes any sense at all. What would have been sensible would have been to require that a notice saying that it is a composed and non-Public Domain song makes any sense. But that's lawyers and business people for you, sense doesn't come into it. Getting it out of the DT wouldn't have had anything to do with Sydney Carter, who always delighted in the idea of his songs being sung in folk clubs by people who had no idea they were his songs. (Sydney Carter is still alive, but he has Altzeimers, I understand.)

12 Mar 08 - 11:04 AM (#2286370)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball or John Bull
From: GUEST

quagmire likes it so it must be good

12 Mar 08 - 04:57 PM (#2286749)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball or John Bull
From: GeoffLawes

There is a nice performance of this on the new Chris Wood Cd Here

11 Aug 10 - 12:36 PM (#2962962)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: GUEST,Alternative Church Dave

In the mid-1980s, our vicar taught us this song with slightly different words but I don't know where he got them from. Unfortunately he died a few years ago so I cannot ask him.
What is DT?
In the version I was taught, it lost the 1st verse and began with:

"Eve is a Queen and Adam is a King,
All shall be ruled for the love of one another
Eve is a Queen and Adam is a King,
in the light that is coming in the morning.

(Chorus) Sing John Ball and tell it to us all,
Tell of the day that is dawning
I'll crow like a cock and I'll carol like a lark
For the light that is coming in the morning."

Verse 2 became "Labour and Spin ..."
There was another verse that you have not put above as verse 3.
Last verse was "All shall be ruled by fellowship at last..."


Given the sentiment of Sydney Carter's lyrics - and I was never told who wrote it at the time - it deserves a wider airing in these troubled economic times.

11 Aug 10 - 12:48 PM (#2962974)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: McGrath of Harlow

It's as likely as not that Sydney Carter might have sung the verses that way sometimes. He liked to change around the words of his songs, and he didn't mind it when other people did the same with them. "Having made a song you sing it; but to write it is another matter. Particularly if, like me, you seldom sing it the same way twice; fresh possibilities will keep appearing...What you put down, in the end, is nothing but a variant."

11 Aug 10 - 01:04 PM (#2962987)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: Joe Offer

Hi, Dave-
Searching Google for "Eve is a Queen and Adam is a King" doesn't come up with a whole lot, but it does bring up this (click):

    Lent 19: Sydney Carter

    Sing John Ball, and tell it to us all,

    Tell of the day that is dawning,

    I'll crow like a cock and I'll carol like a lark

    For the light that is coming in the morning.

    (From: Gentle Angry People, 10)

    Sydney Carter was a Quaker and his best known hymn is probably Lord of the Dance.  We used to sing this one, Eve is a Queen and Adam is a King, in the Sheffield Liberation Congregation, about 20 years ago.  It had its origins in the 1981 500 years commemoration of the Peasants Revolt.  John Ball was a priest who is best known for the saying: 'when Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?'  Gentle Angry People was published by the late lamented Alliance of Radical Methodists in 1987.

    'All shall be ruled by the love of one another' has been the cry of radical Christians down the ages.  Reflect upon how readily Christians sacrifice the rule of love for the rule of law.

    (picture of John Ball)
So it's clear that you're not the only one who learned it "Eve is a Queen and Adam is a King." I wonder if the Gentle Angry People songbook has it that way. I tried to find a copy of the songbook to buy, but didn't have any luck.
-Joe-

By the way, the DT is our Digital Tradition Folk Song Database. You can search or brows it with the grey search box you'll find on most Mudcat pages.

11 Aug 10 - 01:37 PM (#2963007)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: Terry McDonald

I always think the line 'Labour and spin' was rather prescient.

11 Aug 10 - 05:52 PM (#2963196)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: GUEST,Alternative Church Dave

Thanks Joe,
I think it likely that the source of the version I know came from either the 'Gentle Angry People' book or wherever the A.R.M. got it.
Although our vicar wasn't a Methodist, he did do an MA at the Urban Theology Unit at Sheffield in the 1980s so that seems a good connection.
Perhaps tracking down an old A.R.M. member would bring the song book to the surface. I feel sure that some Methodists are still radical.

"Green are the leaves and merry is the May,
long is the night and the winter that is over"

The song popped into my head as I was cycling along today.

11 Aug 10 - 05:55 PM (#2963199)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: Herga Kitty

Yes, Terry, for a decade or so it made me think of Alistair Campbell! (But you could have knocked me over with a feather when I heard that AC plays Northumbrian pipes, albeit not as well as his brother.)

Mike Sparks, the Herga Folk Club secretary, has performed shows based on Sydney's songs, and so do Keith Kendrick and Sylvia Needham (Derby Ram and Sylvia N).

Kitty

12 Aug 10 - 06:57 AM (#2963496)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: mattkeen

Nothing to do with anything really but my mate Gerald Claridge plays acoustic bass on the version Sidney recorded in 1981 on "Lovely in the Dances"

Its available again now on Amazon

Got Marton Carthy, John Kirkpatrick and lots of others on it - but you probably all knew that already

09 Sep 10 - 05:55 PM (#2983467)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: GUEST,Chris Sissons

I'm the author of the blog post quoted on 10 August 2010. Gentle Angry People is long out of print and has a number of radical hymns. The chorus of Sing John Ball is as above. There are 3 verses in GAP:

Labour and spin for fellowship, I say
Labour and spin for the love of one another
Labour and spin for fellowship, I say
In the light that is coming in the morning.

Green are the leaves and merry is the May,
Long is the night and the winter that is over
Green are the leaves and merry is the May,
In the light that is coming in the morning.

All shall be ruled by fellowship at last,
All shall be ruled by the love of one another,
All shall be ruled by fellowship at last,
In the light that is coming in the morning.

09 Sep 10 - 09:51 PM (#2983607)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: Bob Bolton

G'day Joe Offer,

Re your:Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:04 PM
"...
...
...
Sydney Carter was a Quaker and his best known hymn is probably Lord of the Dance ..."

Sydney Carter was raised Anglican ... and was a "Charity Boy" at a London Anglican School. He described the experience of going to school wearing the prescribed blue cloak, with 'gold' trim as being a "proper training for an English eccentric".

I think he described himself as a "free-wheeling Christian" when I met him and photographed his performance in Sydney (post Easter 1972 - after he performed at our National Folk Festival, in Canberra that year).

Many of my Quaker friends enthusiastically sing a number of his songs that refer to the Quakers ... but he was no more of their congregation than of any other in humanity.

Regards,

Bob

19 Dec 11 - 07:10 PM (#3276828)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: GUEST,Metaphoric john

There's a group callled the young un s that do a great version of john ball.

19 Dec 11 - 07:23 PM (#3276835)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: Reinhard

A few minutes ago I posted a link of the Melrose Quartet performing John Ball at Banbury Folk Festival in another thread where their new EP was announced (see Kerr, Fagan, Arrowsmith new CD)

19 Dec 11 - 07:33 PM (#3276839)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: Herga Kitty

Mike Sparks sang it this evening at the Herga folk club's Christmas party.
Kitty

02 Jul 14 - 02:46 AM (#3638242)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: GUEST,Geoff Boxell

I have my own song about John Ball. If I can find out how to post it to this site I will.

02 Jul 14 - 08:03 AM (#3638297)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: Richard Bridge

Put it in the next box on this thread, Geoff. At some point a mod may add it to the database.

02 Jul 14 - 10:16 AM (#3638328)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: Sandra in Sydney

if you do, change the subject to LYR ADD John Ball (Geoff Boxell) so it is easier for moderators to find.

sandra

03 Aug 14 - 09:30 AM (#3647955)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: GUEST,Alternative Church Dave

Sydney Carter's song got an airing during Melvyn Bragg's BBC2 programme Radical Lives, specifically about John Ball, broadcast on 3rd August 2014.

11 Sep 14 - 09:51 PM (#3659523)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Geoff Boxell)
From: GUEST,Geoff Boxell

John Ball

When Adam delved and Eve span,
Who was then the gentleman?
Listen one and listen all …
To the words of good John Ball.

Read the Bible, those who can,
Know you now that we are but man.
The glitter of your world one day will pall:
So say the words of good John Ball.

In God's eyes equal are all –
Written in the letters of Apostle Paul.
Dread lords and ladies, you may fall:
So say the words of good John Ball.

Sons of Adam, daughters of Eve,
Those of low rank ne'er should grieve:
Jesus saved us all from the Fall –
So say the words of good John Ball.

You masters all, tread with care,
Hand us justice and be most fair,
For we may rise and take it all –
So say the words of good John Ball.

When Adam delved and Eve span,
Who was then the gentleman?
Listen one and listen all …
To the words of good John Ball!

If there any way I can upload an MP3 of my friend singing it?
e-mail me on grboxell@xtra.co.nz if there is.

14 Sep 14 - 10:41 PM (#3660284)
Subject: RE: Lyr Add: John Ball (Sydney Carter)
From: GUEST,Geoff Boxell

A story that involves John Ball:
http://geoffboxell.tripod.com/SCA/Ball.htm

other tales about my Lollard Household are at the bottom of this page:

http://geoffboxell.tripod.com/SCA/RobertMiller.htm