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18 Aug 02 - 07:20 PM (#767644) Subject: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: JohnnyBGoode I have quite an aversion to it, especially when passing the guitar around. This aversion is getting worse. I can't even say the name anymore... |
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18 Aug 02 - 07:23 PM (#767647) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Mark Cohen I think there's a twelve-step group for that, Johnny. But whatever you do, DON'T get stuck on the 11th step! Aloha, Mark |
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18 Aug 02 - 07:25 PM (#767648) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Murray MacLeod I am with you on this, JbG. Major sevenths are the devil's trademark. They conjure up images of smoky lounge bars and crooners with hunched shoulders. M.Ted may well disagree however and I look forward to his input. Murray |
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18 Aug 02 - 07:34 PM (#767653) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Sorcha Why? What is the problem? Granted, I only play fiddle, not guitar, but I use 7th all the time when chopping. We fiddlers only have 2 strings available for chording so our options are sort of limited. |
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18 Aug 02 - 07:39 PM (#767656) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Murray MacLeod Sorcha, Johann Sebastian Bach would have expected you to have four strings available for chording. How do you play a major seventh on two strings? G on the fourth string and F# on the third ? Are you not thinking of flattened sevenths, Sorcha? Murray |
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18 Aug 02 - 08:08 PM (#767669) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Mark Clark What kind of question is that? Notes, chords and rhythms are the language of music. Are we going to limit our use of language? This reminds me of the rules for writing product documentation for products being delivered to the military services. Elaborate software is used to evaluate the text in manuals to guarantee that the vocabulary and usage don't go beyond what can can be easily understood by someone with an eighth grade education. Perhaps no music should be written by people whose education has exceeded the eight grade. Even then we might be in trouble. Eighth graders who have also pursued a musical education commonly play major seventh chords. They may not realize it, but they do. I guess if all you want to play is old-time string band tunes or British music hall tunes you can get by without major seventh chords. As a good friend and professional fiddler is fond of saying: “Playing old-time music is the next thing to not being able to play.&rdequo; Of course he also enjoys playing the old-time tunes but he can also play anything else he cares to play. Long live the major seventh chord! - Mark |
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18 Aug 02 - 08:17 PM (#767671) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST Agree with Mark Maj7 chords (in the right place) can be wonderful Kinda a dumb thread |
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18 Aug 02 - 08:25 PM (#767674) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: toadfrog Not necessarily a dumb question. Major seventh chords, except in blues, do not sound right to me. I don't have enough theory to say why, but to me there is something phoney about the sound of a major seventh in a dominant chord. Am not sure why, but I'll bet there is a reason. |
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18 Aug 02 - 08:31 PM (#767676) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Mark Clark Well of course you aren't going to hear a major seventh in a dominant chord, are you? Dominant refers to playing a flatted seventh so you're probably not going to hear a dominant seventh chord played with the major seventh added as well. - Mark |
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18 Aug 02 - 08:32 PM (#767677) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Nancy King Mark -- "Playing old-time music is the next thing to not being able to play.&rdequo... Umm. What? Who makes the rules about what chords we can play anyhow? Is this a new trend? Major 7ths are uncool? Cheers, Nancy |
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18 Aug 02 - 08:37 PM (#767679) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Justa Picker Without them Jobim music wouldn't sound the same. |
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18 Aug 02 - 09:12 PM (#767685) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Sorcha Hmmm. Now I don't know what I play....D maj is D/F#; the 7th I use in Dmaj is F#/B. In Gmaj, I use G/b and C/Fnat or F#/B. Are those true 7th's or flatted 7th's? No fiddler can bow all 4 strings at once--if the bridge is shaped right and you're good, it is possible to get 3 at once; or you can rock the bow to get a full chord and it sounds like you played all of them at once but you didn't. It's called (I think) a "rolled" chord. When "chopping" I just don't think it is possible to get more than 2 notes at once. Chopping is that thing that Allison Krause does while she is singing--fingering and sort of beating at the strings way low on the bow. |
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18 Aug 02 - 09:17 PM (#767688) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Bee-dubya-ell I don't have anything against maj 7th chords in the right setting. In fact, one of my compositions uses five of the little buggers. But, I think that is the only piece I do that even has a single one. They're not very versatile things are they? You can't substitute a maj 7th for a more common chord the way you can a 9th or a minor 7th unless you want some really funny looks from the rest of the band. |
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18 Aug 02 - 09:19 PM (#767689) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Malcolm Douglas It's a matter of taste. 7ths work in some kinds of tunes and not in others; they hardly ever work in British or Irish traditional music, for example, though a lot of people who don't perhaps understand the idiom do seem to insist on using them. They tend to screw up the tune. So far as traditional music is concerned, the golden rule is never to use a note in an accompaniment that doesn't occur in the melody you are accompanying; unless you really know what you're doing. |
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18 Aug 02 - 09:21 PM (#767690) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Mark Clark Nancy, my friend is just venting. He's a brilliant fiddler who had recorded professionally with many of the best players around and he just gets tied of too many jam sessions attened by people with too few skills. He has in fact recorded his own albums of old-time fiddle tunes and loves the music as much as anyone here. He's just tired of people who artifically limit their musical horrizons. He teaches fiddle as well and has great patience for those who are genuinely tring to improve. Sorcha, your view of chopping is correct, short bursts of double stops on two adjacent strings. Some fiddlers bounce the bow in a normal playing position and some hold the fiddle like a mandolin, grasp the bow by the frog and chop downward almost like a flatpick motion. I imagine you already do it both ways. - Mark
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18 Aug 02 - 09:34 PM (#767694) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Sorcha Yea, Mark, and then there is the "hold the fiddle way down below the shoulder" method. I can also pizz my chords in either a fiddle or guitar position. Or left hand pizz, for that matter. We have a great tune called Bear Creek Hop that begins with pizz/arco x 4. I thought I knew theory but I am still confoozeled about this Maj7th/flatted 7th stuff..........I thought flatted 7th was only in Mixolydian mode (here we go on modes again..........) |
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18 Aug 02 - 10:24 PM (#767705) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: khandu As a fingerpicker, I use Maj7th and just about every chord I know. Chords that sound just awful when strummed are sometimes the best chords to use fingerpicking. "To everything there is a season..." khandu |
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19 Aug 02 - 02:18 AM (#767770) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Genie Toadfrog, You say "...Major seventh chords, except in blues, do not sound right to me... . " Have you ever tried to play "My Favorite Things," or "The Christmas Song," or "La Vie En Rose," or any number of popular or jazz songs or show tunes without a major 7th? Granted, there may be few "folk songs" that use or need a major 7th, but a lot of popular, jazz, and show tunes do-- not just blues. Personally, I love major 7ths (though I don't try to insert them into "Wildwood Flower"). There are some chords that send shivers down my spine, and major 7ths are among them. I actually have an arrangement of "Wild Mountain Thyme" that I do just for the fun of it that uses a major 7th, 2 minor 7ths, and a minor 6th. Doesn't sound real "folky," but I like it, just for a change. khandu, I'm with you: there are chords that don't sound so hot when strummed but sound really neat as arpeggios or when finger picked. Genie |
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19 Aug 02 - 02:44 AM (#767783) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Mark Cohen Sorch, let's say you're playing a folk song in G. The chords go G-C-D-G, but you want to show off, so when you get to the D you'll play a seventh chord. That would be D7: D-F#-A-C. (This is assuming you play a chorded instrument, which you don't, but let's not get hung up on details!) Since the C is a half-step below the normal 7th note of the D scale, it's sometimes called a flatted 7th. It's also commonly called a dominant 7th, since the D is the dominant (V) chord in this key. Dmaj7, on the other hand, is D-F#-A-C#. You can think of it as a chord that includes the 7th of the major scale, in this case, C#; hence, major 7th. It doesn't work as a dominant 7th (playing G-C-Dmaj7-G in a folk song will definitely get you strange looks), but it's often used as a substitute for the tonic chord in "jazzier" styles (along with the 6th). Are you any less confused now? Aloha, Mark |
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19 Aug 02 - 06:08 AM (#767828) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Catherine Jayne You can play chords on the fiddle you just have to spread them. If you don't Maj 7th chords try something else I like the Neopolitan 7th chord.....it adds a different colour. But I have to admitt that I do like the major 7th chord. Composers such as Mozart and JS Bach wrote chords in their violin music. The difficulty is playing fugues on the fiddle!! Cat |
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19 Aug 02 - 10:27 AM (#767909) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: allanwill I agree with Genie - I love major 7ths, especially a Cmaj7 - Fmaj7 progression. They're also great for a final chord on slow, moody songs. Allan |
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19 Aug 02 - 10:46 AM (#767922) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Jim Krause The Rule of Chord Substitution says: Any chord may be substituted for another chord of the same function as long as the melody permits. If the melody permits, I say use 'em. |
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19 Aug 02 - 11:10 AM (#767942) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Catherine Jayne I meant to suggest Neoploitan 6th chords....they can be fun!!! cat |
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19 Aug 02 - 05:10 PM (#768117) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST,Fred Miller I'm a regular user, it's part of some songs I like. But I think it's interesting and idiomatic how some people just set certain things aside that they don't feel right about. I play guitar and hardly ever play in Emaj, which is odd. Go figure. |
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19 Aug 02 - 07:04 PM (#768193) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Murray MacLeod The Rule of Chord Substitution says: "Any chord may be substituted for another chord of the same function as long as the melody permits."
Jim, nothing personal here, but 1) Vho wrote that rule ? 2) Wnat the hell does it mean? What is a "chord of the same function"? Murray |
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19 Aug 02 - 07:06 PM (#768195) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Benjamin Man, I'd forgotten all about those N6 chords.Those are fun! The IV chord actually sounds great as a M7 chord. M7s also work great in cadential 6/4 chords. I personally love the sound. The other one is the minor 7th chord. That is the most underused 7th chord. |
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19 Aug 02 - 07:10 PM (#768199) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Murray MacLeod Benjamin, sometimes you are just so full of shit. The danger is, some people mught take you seriously ... Murray |
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19 Aug 02 - 09:59 PM (#768272) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: michaelr Jim -- what Murray said! And: "as long as the melody permits"? How long does it permit? What about after hours? And how do you apply for permission? Seriously, you may think your post clarified the issue, but I for one am mystified. Please explain! Michael |
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19 Aug 02 - 11:17 PM (#768307) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Genie How about that F flat Major 7th augmented sustained flatted 5th diminished chord? Now there's a beaut! *BG* |
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20 Aug 02 - 02:16 AM (#768358) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Benjamin Murry, That hurts! Seriously! How am I not suppose to take that as a personal attack? It's not my fault if you never bothered to put yourself through school and therefore can't follow a word I say! Didn't your parents tell you that if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all? |
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20 Aug 02 - 03:25 AM (#768371) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Steve Parkes Sorcha (and any other fiddle player): the violin bow was originally bow-shaped (whence the name, I suppose), which made it possible to play three- or even four-string chords. Don't ask me whether that well-know guitarist JSB would have had an old-style or modern bow, though ... Steve |
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20 Aug 02 - 09:17 AM (#768500) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Catherine Jayne Benjamin I know what you mean minor 7th chords can be so juicey ( a phrase my university lecturer used) I quite like diminished 7th chords, augmented 7th's can be quite weird!!! Cat |
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20 Aug 02 - 11:32 AM (#768555) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Jim Krause Murray, It's a standard textbook rule of music theory, and is quite well known by jazz guitarists, bassists, and pianists, less well known by folkies.
Simply put, all seven chords in the diatonic scale (the white keys on the piano) can be divided up into four categories or functions. These are:
Probably clear as mud without my little hand out sheet that I usually use to teach this subject. But I hope this helped some. |
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20 Aug 02 - 11:46 AM (#768564) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Grab Nothing wrong with major 7th - just about anything that has a descending run uses a major 7th in it, usually as the second chord in the sequence (eg. "C, Cmaj7, Am"). Stairway to heaven, Time in a bottle, Whiter shade of pale, etc, etc. Where the major 7th is in the bass (eg. a bass run) then it may be labelled differently, eg. C/B. So the same bass run may be marked "C, C/B, Am". Graham. |
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20 Aug 02 - 12:00 PM (#768578) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST,Bagpuss I know the difference between 7ths (which I don't like very often)and maj7ths (which I use quite a lot and generally like). However, I am now confused as to which one the person who started the thread dislikes.... Bagpuss |
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20 Aug 02 - 12:00 PM (#768579) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Kim C Steve, you're right, baroque-style bows have a curved stick, like a.... bow, in a D shape. But the hair is still straight, so I'm not sure I understand how the shape of the stick would allow a person to strike all four strings at once. Bridges are curved, putting the strings in an arc, and hair is flat - maybe there is something I am missing in the geometry. The best I can do is 3 strings at once. Anyway, as regards chords, play what you feel and forget about the rest. UNLESS the person who wrote the song is also playing with you, and says otherwise! ;-) You'll know what sounds right and what doesn't. |
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20 Aug 02 - 12:15 PM (#768586) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: bob jr that major burns use to make me laugh on mash but that major winchester was alot less funny |
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20 Aug 02 - 12:30 PM (#768594) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: C-flat I don't really understand the problem with playing a Major7th chord provided it's in the right place. As Justapicker rightly says, you'd struggle to play "Girl from Ippenema" without one! The only time I object to them is when they're used as a cheesy closing chord. |
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20 Aug 02 - 07:57 PM (#768815) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Murray MacLeod Benjamin, sorry for any offence caused, I had assumed your post was humorous. If it wasn't, then we need to talk.... Jim, I cannot get to grips with your concepts. How does Ddim feature in the scheme of things in the scale of C Major? Ddim contains a G#. Bdim is essentially just another way of describing Bdim, or Fdim, or G#dim. If you are regarding the triad formed by B-D-F as a diminished chord, IMHO you are way off-beam. It makes much more sense to regard it as part of a G7 chord, (G-B-D-F)the dominant seventh chord in the scale of C Major. Diminished chords need FOUR notes to define them. Murray |
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20 Aug 02 - 08:01 PM (#768818) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Murray MacLeod "Bdim is essentially just another way of describing Bdim, or Fdim, or G#dim
What I meant to write, of course was "Bdim is essentially just another way of describing Ddim, or Fdim, or G#dim" Murray |
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20 Aug 02 - 10:03 PM (#768856) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Benjamin Murry, my post was serious (though I may have been trying to have some fun). However you take it, you don't need swear at me for it. I honestly don't see much to talk about here. |
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20 Aug 02 - 10:06 PM (#768859) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Benjamin Oh, and Murry, diminished chords need 3 notes to define them. Diminished and half diminished 7th chords need 4 notes to define them. That 7th makes a difference. |
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20 Aug 02 - 10:29 PM (#768873) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: michaelr All that theory makes my head spin. Play me a G-demolished! |
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21 Aug 02 - 08:53 AM (#769045) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST toad, a maj7 chord in a blues tune would sound pretty wimpy to this ear...remember the pop band "America?" Think 'Ventura Highway,' ... these guys launched their careers from the maj7 chord. Perhaps you were thinking of the so-called 'dominant' 7th chord? Now we're talking blues... |
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21 Aug 02 - 11:52 AM (#769130) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: JohnnyBGoode I know they have their place...however, I was passing my guitar around at a party the other night, and was more in the mood for stronger, harder-hitting songs. A maj7 kick got started, "America" style. Got tired of it! It became a joke, etc...now I'll have to find some maj7th contexts that I'm comfortable with! Something by the Beatles is one I can think of off-hand.
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21 Aug 02 - 01:10 PM (#769171) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Don Firth Reading through this thread, I get the sense that not everybody is talking about the same thing. I've heard people refer to an ordinary Dominant 7th chord as a "major 7th" because the basic triad is major. Not accurate. A Dominant 7th is a major triad with a note added. The added note is an interval of a minor 7th above the root [Example—G, B, D, plus F]. A major 7th chord would be a major triad with an added note a major 7th above the root [Example—G, B, D, plus F#]. For all practical purposes, there is no such thing as an interval of a diminished or augmented 7th. A diminished 7th would be the same as a major 6th and an augmented 7th would be the same as an octave. Classical musicians and musicologists consider that the triad B, D, and F does constitute a diminished chord. A triad is a basic chord stripped to its bare bones. Jazz musicians and people who learned what music theory they know out of a guitar manual usually assume that a diminished chord has to have the 7th added because that's what the chord diagrams usually show, and that's the way they usually use it. A diminished 7th chord a sort of "catch-all" chord. Since any one of the four notes can be taken as the leading tone, it can resolve to any of four different chords, making for easy modulations. A dominant 7th (which contains a diminished triad) resolves to only one chord (the tonic). To further add to the confusion, the 7th in a diminished 7th chord is the exception to the idea that there is no such interval as a diminished 7th. The added note is a diminished 7th, (enharmonic with a major 6th), but if you don't "spell" it that way, it could lead to endless confusion in the way subsequent chords would need to be written—assuming you're writing a fairly formal composition. This is sort of the "basic spelling" part of music theory. Knowing all this would be beyond the practical needs of most folk musicians. But not knowing it can lead to confusion when trying to communicate with other musicians. I do use major 7th chords from time to time, but sparingly and judiciously. They're very lush. In the version of The Braes of Yarrow that I do, I use an F major 7th (F, A, C, E) just before the final Am in each verse. It would give a purist wall-eyed fits if he knew what the chord was, but boy, does it work! The ultimate test is how does it sound? Don Firth |
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21 Aug 02 - 01:42 PM (#769188) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: JohnnyBGoode My fault on some confusion -- should've specified CHORD in the thread title... |
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21 Aug 02 - 08:13 PM (#769366) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Murray MacLeod I am getting rapidly tired of this discussion. I have listened to the whole recorded output of Blind Blake enough to know the difference between a diminished chord and a triad which forms part of a dominant seventh. A diminished chord is a chord comprising notes each separated from the next by an interval of three semitones. And it goes all the way up from low tonic to high tonic. An augmented chord is a chord comprising notes each separated from the next by an interval of four semitones. And it goes all the way up from low tonic to high tonic. That's it , period. Murray |
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22 Aug 02 - 12:29 PM (#769686) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Don Firth On the question of the distinction between diminished chords and diminished 7th chords, check HERE and HERE. And there is a wealth of good information HERE. And some more HERE. If you search for "music theory" in google.com, you'll be inundated with good stuff. The sites I've linked to are just a few of the ones available. They can provide the answers to most questions about music theory (scales, modes, intervals, chords, and the terminology that trained musicians use). They are specifically for guitarists, but the information is consistent with formal music theory. I recommend highly. Don Firth |
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22 Aug 02 - 02:01 PM (#769731) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST,guest one more time. In the key of G, D is the dominant chord. C is the seventh note above D. Because we are in the key of G, C occurs naturally. So the seventh of the dominant is not flatted, but natural. If we added a seventh to the tonic (G), it would be a major seventh because F is sharped within the G scale. We can flat that F# to F natural. Then it would be referred to as a flatted seventh. We then can resolve the resulting chord (G7) to the subdominant (C) of the key. It is also possible to resolve the chord to A minor (known as a deceptive cadence). We could also resolve to an F# chord or B chord treating the minor seventh as an augmented sixth. |
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22 Aug 02 - 02:01 PM (#769732) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST,Boromir one more time. In the key of G, D is the dominant chord. C is the seventh note above D. Because we are in the key of G, C occurs naturally. So the seventh of the dominant is not flatted, but natural. If we added a seventh to the tonic (G), it would be a major seventh because F is sharped within the G scale. We can flat that F# to F natural. Then it would be referred to as a flatted seventh. We then can resolve the resulting chord (G7) to the subdominant (C) of the key. It is also possible to resolve the chord to A minor (known as a deceptive cadence). We could also resolve to an F# chord or B chord treating the minor seventh as an augmented sixth. |
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22 Aug 02 - 02:32 PM (#769746) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Mark Clark GUEST,Boromir In any diatonic major scale the interval between the 7th and 8th (octave) is a half step. You can test this on a keyboard playing only the white keys beginning with C. In a D7 (the dominant 7th chord in the key of G) it is indeed a C—the flatted 7th—that is played. C# is the major 7th to a D triad. In your post you said “...C is the seventh note above D” but in fact it's the flatted 7th. - Mark
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22 Aug 02 - 02:37 PM (#769748) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Don Firth A large part of the problem is that self-taught guitarists, or guitarists who were taught by self-taught guitarist (who, in turn, were taught by….ad infinitum) use such a mish-mash of terminology that it's hard for them to communicate with each other, much less carry on a reasonable discussion with other musicians, especially those with formal training. Classical guitarists run into this all the time because they usually have a foot in both camps. Don Firth |
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22 Aug 02 - 02:47 PM (#769754) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Don Firth Wait a minute, Mark. I think we're confusing "flatted" with "minor" here. "Flatted" only if it takes the seventh note above the root out of the key signature. In this case, it should be described as an interval of a "minor 7th." Don Firth |
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22 Aug 02 - 05:33 PM (#769821) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST,boromir Mark Clark In the key of G, the diatonic scale begins on G, not D. You would be correct on calling the interval between D and C a minor seventh, but it certainly is not a flatted seventh. |
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22 Aug 02 - 06:46 PM (#769858) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Murray MacLeod I find myself drawn to this thread like a dog is drawn to its vomit....
GUEST boromir, you were the one who said If you meant to say C# then admit a typo and apologize to Mark. If you did in fact intend to say C, then your post makes no sense. Murray |
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22 Aug 02 - 08:23 PM (#769887) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Benjamin Actually Murry, his post makes perfect sense. He's talking about the key of G. A D7 chord in the key of G major is D F# A C. There is more than one kind of 7th out there. Maybe you shouldn't be so fiesty on a topic you weren't educated in. |
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22 Aug 02 - 09:07 PM (#769900) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST,Lucius In the key of G, there is one sharp, F#. G is the tonic, and D is the dominant chord-a fifth away. A dominant seventh chord build with D in the root position would be D, F#, A and C. Hence dominant seventh. The F# usally resolves as all common practice dominant sevenths does by leading up to G. The C resolves downward to B--the third of a Tonic G chord. The C does not need to be flattened, as it naturally occurs in a G diatonic scale. However the interval of D to C is a minor seventh. A seventh chord built on the tonic G would be G, B, D, F#-- It uses the interval of a major seventh. No diatonic tones were altered in the creation of this chord. As far as being ok to play these chords, ask Eric Satie.
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23 Aug 02 - 08:14 AM (#770077) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Boromir Thank you Benjamin and Lucius. Mark was merely mistaken and need not apologize. Murray, however, might lose the taste of crow if he admitted he was wrong. |
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23 Aug 02 - 08:22 AM (#770079) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Boromir By the way, Murray. A diminished seventh chord is a diminished chord (B D F) with an added diminished seventh (G#). Diminished sevenths built on D and F do not include a G#. Any bilious matter contained in this thread has been your emesis. |
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23 Aug 02 - 08:26 AM (#770080) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Boromir Correction. A diminished seventh chord built on B does not include a G# either. The only diminished seventh chord that does include a G# is the one that is built on G# and includes G#, B, D, and a lowered F# (F natural). |
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23 Aug 02 - 09:03 AM (#770104) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Murray MacLeod Boromir, could you kindly list the notes which comprise a diminished seventh chord built on D ? Amd also, if you would be so kind, the notes which comprise a diminished seventh chord built on F ? Murray |
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23 Aug 02 - 12:37 PM (#770267) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST Murray Diminished 7th beginning on D. D F Ab Cb Diminished 7th beginning on F. F Ab Cb Ebb(E double flat) |
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23 Aug 02 - 12:43 PM (#770272) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Mark Clark On the contrary, I think an apology is probably in order. I hope I'm never too proud to apologize. You correctly observe, and I have readilly adimited elsewhere, that I have no formal (i.e., university) education in music theory. I have studied theory in an individual lesson setting with a very experienced professional jazz guitarist and it's from that and from forty years of playing with other musicians of many stipes that I derive any (possibly flawed) knowledge I have. (N.B. This does not mean that I actually am a jazz guitarist; I'm definately not.) Let me explain my own thought process and perhaps you will find the source of the error in my thinking. I understand, for instance, that there is such a thing as a diminished chord separate and distinct from a diminished 7th chord. In practice however, for the sort of tunes I might play (traditional folk, blues, bluegrass, jazz) the notation “dim” (also °) always refers to a diminished 7th (the four-note chord in which each note is a minor third above the previous one). A G#° chord (G#dim7) contains the notes G#-B-D-F. For the guitarist, by virtue of inversions, this chord may also be called B°, D° or F° because the intervals are all the same, even when crossing octaves. This would seem to suggest that there are at least four dim7 chords containing the note G#. (N.B. A pedant may prefer referring to G# as Ab to maintain the theory of using evey other note name.) Similiarly, the notation “7” always refers to the use of the flatted 7th with respect to the root of the chord name (and without respect to any specific key). Often, this is called a dominant 7th chord even though that designation isn't strictly true unless the root of the chord is a major fifth above the tonic of some reference key. I agree that some confusion arrises from the apparant shift in terminology used when moving the discussion from chords to scales. In a C major scale, the interval from C to Bb is commonly termed a minor 7th meaning that the 7th is flatted. The same Bb note, however, when played with a C major triad (C-E-G) is never referred to as a minor 7th. It's either called a 7th or perhaps a dominant 7th. C-7 (Cm7) would be C-Eb-G-Bb, a minor triad with a flatted 7th added. You can see that I tend use both the terms flatted and minor to mean lowered in pitch by one semitone when speaking about scales and intervals. I understand that in an academic setting there are specific reasons for using one term or the other but outside of that setting nobody much cares. I can appreciate what Don is talking about because I know that a formally trained classical guitarist will use the terminology of theory in a most pedantic way. That's appropriate because the classical guitarst is trained to a much wider range of music and situations than many of the rest of us. Not many classical guitarists would prefer to listen to much of the music we discuss here so I'm always grateful for the few who take the time and patience to add their insights. That said, outside of universities and studios devoted strictly to classical music, I think my rude understanding of theory is what passes for notational communication among the vast majority of professional and amateur musicians. I also use the practice (common among working musicians) of referring to chords by number rather than name. The tonic chord of any key is a I chord, the dominant a V chord, etc. Extensions and ornamentation are often left to the creative descretion of individual musicians and relys on their experience with the genre. - Mark
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside, it's too dark to read. |
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23 Aug 02 - 02:04 PM (#770331) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST,Boromir Mark Your understanding of theory is excellant and you should make no apologies. I take issue with very little of what you say in the context in which you say it. A 7 above any chord does refer to a minor seventh. A 7 above the dominant (or V) chord is referred to as a dominant seventh because it is the dominant chord in the key in which you are playing. The sound of the chord is relatively the same as adding a minor seventh over the tonic or the subdominant chord (I or IV). By adding the 7 above a chord which is not dominant you are modulating temporarily. For example if you are in the key of C and you play the following chord progression: C D7 G7 C The D7 is not the dominant 7th. In theory notation it be II7 over V or the dominant of the dominant. It's like being inside a nested if in programming. These are distinctions that are important to the writer and reader of music, not especially the player. It is more important for a player to feel his way through a score than to think his way through. That is the reason any inversion of a diminished seventh chord suffices as long as it has the root in it somewhere when you are playing. However, to a writer or reader it is very important how a chord is spelled. If you are in the key of A, the leading tone (VII) is G#. It would not be correct to have a diminished seventh chord with an Ab in it because Ab does not "lead" to A. There is no difference in pitch between Ab and G# but they are not interchangeable in the key of A just as cord and chord are not interchangeable in a sentence. But also remember that when we "spell' chords, they must be spelled with the key in mind. In C Major, the fully diminished chord is only accomplished by a flatted A. Without the Ab you have a "half diminished" chord. In c minor, the fully diminished chord occurs "naturally" because the A is flatted in the key signature. I hope I haven't confused you or bored you. I also know that you are not disparaging pedants by your comments. I have heard the statement, "I took some music lessons until it started to affect my playing" more than a few times and it rankles me every time I hear it. Everything has its importance including music theory for composers. |
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23 Aug 02 - 02:09 PM (#770335) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Benjamin Murry, could you of been a bit more kind from the begining?
And Boromir, a diminished 7th built on B does contain an Ab, the same tone as a G#. |
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23 Aug 02 - 02:15 PM (#770338) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Boromir Benjamin "And Boromir, a diminished 7th built on B does contain an Ab, the same tone as a G#. " I believe I corrected myself but thank you so much anyway. |
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23 Aug 02 - 02:37 PM (#770354) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Boromir Benjamin The last time I looked, G# was not the same as Ab. By themselves they may sound the same, but in the context of a key they are a long ways apart. As I stated previously, cord sounds just the same as chord. |
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23 Aug 02 - 05:21 PM (#770453) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Benjamin Ab is the same pitch, spelled differently. Your right, but it gets much more complicated when you start studing modulation and enharmonic spellings. I won't get into that stuff now. |
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23 Aug 02 - 06:35 PM (#770485) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Murray MacLeod Benjamin, I think we can resolve our misunderstanding.
The first line of your original post read I assumed this was a deliberate attempt at irony on your part ("N6 chords"?) but I now realise that it was a typo. Hence my response,which was in fact intended to be jocular...
But, when we get to GUEST'S post
"Diminished 7th beginning on F. F Ab Cb Ebb(E double flat)" I'm outta here, but fast ... Murray |
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23 Aug 02 - 06:47 PM (#770491) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: C-flat Aspirin, anybody? Cb |
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23 Aug 02 - 11:36 PM (#770623) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Benjamin typo? N6 is a short way of writing Neoploitan 6th chords which catsPhiddle brought up. That is a chord built on a flatted 2nd degree of the scale. I studied about them a couple years ago in college and forgot about them untill they were brought up. If your just trying to be "jocular," you can try using less offensive language. It might also help if you could understand what I said in the first place instead of just telling me my words were irony or a typo. |
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24 Aug 02 - 09:41 AM (#770742) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST,boromir "I assumed this was a deliberate attempt at irony on your part ("N6 chords"?) but I now realise that it was a typo"Careful Murray, your ignorance is showing (again). |
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24 Aug 02 - 10:00 AM (#770745) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST,Fred Miller Um, I think it was Mark Twain, who was sharp, who said "...inside of a dog it's too dark to read." But the same writer might also be called Samuel Clemmons in another context without being diminished--was a major humorist. |
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24 Aug 02 - 10:33 AM (#770761) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: John Hardly to be absolutely sure that I never hit an offending chord again... I have removed all but three strings on my guitar. I have them tuned to C, D, and G.
I promise to never play two strings simultaneously, and I will not use my left hand while playing. |
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24 Aug 02 - 11:59 AM (#770790) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Mark Clark WebFerret turned up eighty references for the quote; I imagine Google would turn up some more. I've included a few below. Each reference returned credits Groucho Marx. But Fred, it was certainly nice of you to offer your opinion. - Mark
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24 Aug 02 - 02:50 PM (#770851) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST,Fred Miller Lesson learned, never trust a Twain impersonator. Thanks. In a few years I hope to retire and in Proust-like seclusion research the accuracy of the random bits of fluff in my head. |
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24 Aug 02 - 05:54 PM (#770971) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST,Fred Miller I'm sorry, Mark, everyone, I really didn't care much who said it's dark in a dog, I was trying to joke that the tone of this discussion might be a little unnecesarily pissy. But I could be wrong about that, too. |
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24 Aug 02 - 06:19 PM (#770988) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: McGrath of Harlow "Less is more" is pretty good rule. If you can manage to get by without it, you're generally better getting by without it. |
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25 Aug 02 - 12:45 AM (#771131) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Genie Well, like most rules, that one has lots of exceptions (especially if a "diminished" chord is considered "more" than a major chord). Personally if guitarists use just chords (as opposed to melodic runs) as background, I get awfully tired of hearing the same 3 to 5 of them all the time. Is close harmony necessarily "more" than harmony that consists of 3rds and 5ths? Again, so much depends on the particular song you're playing/singing. |
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26 Aug 02 - 12:13 AM (#771564) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Ian Darby Listen to 'Something' by George Harrison. It was worth inventing Cmaj7th for this song alone. (It starts off C/Cmaj7th/c7th.) |
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26 Aug 02 - 12:15 AM (#771565) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: JohnnyBGoode Yeah, I like that one a lot, Ian. |
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26 Aug 02 - 03:00 AM (#771607) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Genie In the song "My Favorite Things," the melody for the first line is the same as that of the second line. If you play the same chords for the two lines, it's musically very uninteresting. It is the use of different chords -- C major 7th instead of a simple E minor chord (in the key of G) -- that brings life to the (repeatd) melody in the second line. To me, this is an example where "Less Is More" doesn't apply. (You could use a straight C instead of Cmaj7, I guess. But play it both ways and tell me which sounds better.) |
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26 Aug 02 - 09:45 PM (#772040) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Genie And, oh, the melody lines are the same in the third verse as in verses one and two, but the chords change from minors and major 7ths (or 9ths) to straight major key chords, thus making the tune sound different. Again, applying the "less is more" rule, wouldn't you just use the same chords every time you play the same melody? (Of course, I realize that it is the harmony, not the melody, that changes within this song. But that's where chord variation is born.) Genie |
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04 Jul 07 - 04:10 AM (#2093741) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Big Al Whittle If I were a chord, I would object to all these labels people kept putting on me. |
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04 Jul 07 - 04:13 AM (#2093744) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Peace Marketing, wld, marketing. |
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04 Jul 07 - 06:05 PM (#2094276) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST,Jim Grab suggested the progression C, CMa7, Am (The Mr. Bojangles run). This progression appears in several folky songs, usually waltzes, but not always. |
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04 Jul 07 - 06:08 PM (#2094278) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: Peace BUT, without a C13b5b9, life is sooo droll. |
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04 Jul 07 - 06:20 PM (#2094289) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: The Sandman WLD,Itsagoodjob you are not a dyad,you might be mistaken for dead. |
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04 Jul 07 - 08:38 PM (#2094381) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: JohnInKansas I assume that this thread died a natural death, and someone couldn't resist one more post after a spam refresh, but after the five exceedingly astute posts that have appeared in the current era, perhaps it's not inappropriate to quote Einstein (approximating from memory): "A good theory is as simple as possible, ... but no simpler." A legitimate question was asked that did not receive an answer (which seemed a little rude in reading the thread now but may not really have been in the flow of debate at the time) as to how the "D-shaped bow" permits playing more than two strings simultaneously on a fiddle. The key is that the hair on the old style bow was not tensioned by the bow. The fiddler had to wrap the hair in the fingers to provide (somewhat limited) tension; and by relaxing the tension - or by increasing the pressure against the strings - the relatively slack hair could be wrapped around the curve of the bridge to quite easily(?) contact all four strings at the same time. Played "away from the bridge" with sufficient pressure, a modern bow/fiddle can perhaps play three adjacent strings at the same time, but I haven't noticed this being done much. Only the one who knows knows. The "arc" of the bridge also appears to have been somewhat different on fiddles of the same era, and even now "classical violinists" and "fiddlers" sometimes prefer some slight diffence in the shaping of the bridge. Some - especially the "violinists" - now have been observed to speak in denigrating terms of instruments having a "fiddle bridge" and thus not being "proper instruments." Fiddlers who use a "personally modified bridge" may reply with something that sounds like "suck dew" but an exact translation hasn't been established to my knowledge. The "neck angle" of modern instruments is also quite significantly different than was common when the "slack bows" were used, there being no such thing1 as an "original Stradivarius" since all known instruments have been rebuilt to the "new angle." (Other surviving "notable early instruments" have generally been modified similarly.) I don't recall any comment about whether the bridge arc amd/or neck angle specifically affect the ease of bowing multiple strings, but a detailed debate should consider the possibility. 1 There have been claims that there is one "unmodified Strad," but most experts I've read claim there is not. If one exists, the only explanation would be that "it's not a very good instrument and is not played." John |
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05 Jul 07 - 08:46 PM (#2095189) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: The Fooles Troupe "I assume that this thread died a natural death" John, when you ASS-U-ME, you make an ASS out of U * ME... :-P |
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05 Jul 07 - 09:35 PM (#2095222) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: JohnInKansas Fooles - With no new post since 2002, until a few days ago, and examining the with the additional information that on that date I saw at least 4 other "ancient and honorable" threads brought back up by SPAM posts ..., I don't believe there's much real "Ass-uming" involved, except as a manner of speech. And besides, I've always figured you to be pretty much a "self-made" kinda guy, so it's nice that you recognized the reference and volunteered to be included, even if I can't take any real credit. If you'd like I'll try to spread the word that I made ya what ya are, but I doubt anyone will believe me, since no one who know us both would think I'd be capable of inducing such John |
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06 Jul 07 - 12:37 PM (#2095710) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST,Jim Back to the "bowing more than two strings" topic. I've seen pictures of Joe Venuti bowing with the stick of his bow behind the fiddle and the bow hairs contacting all four strings. I've never heard him do this, though. Has anyone else? |
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06 Jul 07 - 01:14 PM (#2095738) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: JohnInKansas GJim - I've seen pictures of a number of fiddlers doing this, but I've only heard it done by a couple of unidentified players (on separate occasions) in the campground. It generally, I think, requires either "disassembling" the bow to get sufficient slack, or in one case I believe the player just had a "spare" bow specially "haired extra long" specifically for this parlor trick. The sound, as I recall dimly after many years, was akin to a hurdy-gurdy played badly or with a few broken keys, although if an act needs a gimmick it's a known one. John |
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06 Jul 07 - 06:36 PM (#2095974) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST,willie wonka,guest only on full moons,and never in convents. |
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07 Jul 07 - 11:15 AM (#2096364) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: GUEST,Jim I just googled images of Joe Venuti and the first picture was of him bowing with the stick behind the fiddle. |
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08 Jul 07 - 03:03 PM (#2097141) Subject: RE: Do you think it's ok to play a maj 7th? From: birdman blue coming from a jazz background, I have to remark that I haven't seen so many interesting and unique versions of harmony/chord theory since before going to university theory courses back in the early 1970s. I won't begin to try and straighten-out the host of erronious assumptions, unique use of nomenclature or prejudicial slanders against the major 7 chord.... frankly, I'm not sure where I would start though I applaud the efforts of those gallant defenders of theoretical orthodoxy. My congratulations and sympathy to Mr. Firth and the others.... you tried. reading through this post was, however, a real learning experience for this new catter: "stay the hell away from discussions concerning theory" (which completely screws me because I find theory to be one of the most fascinating things about music: the order and precision that can be reduced mathematically from even the most outlandish acoustic furball of a composition.... ) bird please don't start dissing the "13" chord, I live by 'em. (251=4736251 musical mathematics) |