|
24 Aug 02 - 07:35 AM (#770714) Subject: Statue of Michael Collins From: Fiolar On Thursday August 22nd 2002, a statue of Michael Collins was unveiled in Emmett Square, Clonakilty, County Cork by actor Liam Neeson. The ceremony took place around 8pm, the exact moment when Michael died at Beal na Blath in 1922. I was fortunate to be one of the thousands from all over the world who packed the square to hear the various speakers and to applaud Liam. A moving experience and a fitting tribute to a man who was one of the greatest Ireland ever produced. |
|
24 Aug 02 - 08:35 AM (#770729) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Peter K (Fionn) Dev admitted that history would do justice to Collins, at his own expense. It's beginning to happen at last. |
|
24 Aug 02 - 08:40 AM (#770732) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: JedMarum I would like to have been there. |
|
24 Aug 02 - 11:33 AM (#770778) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: The Pooka Ohhh, boy, so would I. Thanks Fiolar. Did Bertie & other politicoes orate? Will ye tell us more? (How is *SF* handling this well-deserved rehabilitation of The Big Fella?) |
|
24 Aug 02 - 11:43 AM (#770785) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Sorcha I think it's wonderful, but I can't help but wonder how long it will take for some fanatic to vandalize it...... |
|
24 Aug 02 - 06:55 PM (#771004) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: The Pooka Did de Valera in fact bear responsibility in regard to Collins's death? I'm thinking of the movie. What is the historical truth? |
|
24 Aug 02 - 07:09 PM (#771012) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Sorcha I think that Del said that history would vindicate The Big Guy and that is certainly happening. |
|
24 Aug 02 - 08:21 PM (#771045) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Big Mick Describe the statue, would you? And what has public reaction been? The Big Fella, and his relationship with the Long Fella, is facinating. As to whether Dev actually had a hand in his death, I don't know that we will ever know. Mick |
|
25 Aug 02 - 12:48 AM (#771132) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: The Pooka Hm. I suppose not. Fascinating relationship: I liked the movie dialogue when Collins is trying to spring Dev from (Brixton??) prison. Bigfella (through cell door): "Dev! The fookin' key broke!" Longfella: "There is no need for such profanity, Michael." |
|
25 Aug 02 - 05:42 AM (#771177) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Fiolar Bertie wasn't there. The government was "represented" by Joe Walsh, Agriculture Minister. Tim Pat Coogan who wrote a book about Michael gave what I thought was a long winded speech which went over the designated time of 8pm. Liam Neeson received the best ovation of the night. Michael Collins' two nieces Joan Burnworth and Nancy Hurley were also present and laid two wreaths the foot of the monument. His grand-niece Nora Owen was also present. The statue itself was designed and cast by sculptor Kevin Holland and is approximately seven feet high and is on a granite pedestal. It shows him in civilian clothes and is based on a photograph taken when he attended an election rally in Clonakilty in 1922. Impossible to get near it on the night due to the crowds but I managede to get some great photos thanks to the zoom facility on the camera. An additional souvenir of the day is a reproduction of the newspaper "The West Cork People" of which his brother-in-law was editor. All in all a tribute which was long overdue and which I wouldn't have missed for the world. Pooka: Dev was in Lincoln jail and there are some including myself who reckon that Michael should have left him there. mind you, I suppose it's all immaterial now. No comment so far from Sinn Fein (as far as I am aware). My brother was quite annoyed at what appeared to be scant coverage by RTE as he said there will be something like five hours given over to the upcoming "Rose of Tralee." |
|
25 Aug 02 - 10:00 AM (#771247) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST I'd be quite surprised to see Sinn Fein well represented at such an event, considering what happened to the six counties as a result of Michael Collin's London shenanigans. As to the anticipated vandalism of the statute, and why should this one escape the time honored Irish tradition? |
|
25 Aug 02 - 11:27 AM (#771271) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim "London shenanigans" bears little relation to historical reality. Dev was a wily old bugger, always in Ireland when needed in England and in the US when needed in Ireland, leaving others to take the tough decisions and carry the can. The Irish London delegation was threatened by all-out War by Lloyd George, one of the most skilful, powerful and toughest politicians of the 20th century. You have to take into account the utter determination of those who organised the Curragh Mutiny, the formation of the old UVF, the Larne gun running and the signing of the Ulster Covenant, some with their own blood. Remember too, Ireland was partitioned by the Government of Ireland Act of 1920, not the Treaty of 6 December 1921. Collins hated Partition more than most but what, dear GUEST, was the alternative? I think recent history has vindicated Collins realistic assessment of the religious and cultural differences that are still so important today. Thanks Fiolar for all the info on the Statue. |
|
25 Aug 02 - 11:30 AM (#771273) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: The Pooka Why *should* it, as distinguished from 'why *would* it', escape? Because, Guest, we *should* all declare that tradition (like some others) to be time-DIShonoured, henceforth. OK, so we got some chuckles from the recent decapitation of marble-wrought Maggie Thatcher in London. So, let that one be the last. And speaking of London, Michael's "shenanigans" were undertaken at Dev's behest, and himself likely knowing he could do no better & so distancing himself. And the days of the Statelet are numbered now anyway. 32-County Republic by 2016: Martin McGuinness. Let all the patriots of all the factions rest, and their statues stand, in peace. Fiolar, Thanks!! for excellent detailed report. So glad you were there---for your own sake, plus I feel like the Mudcat was, very appropriately, represented. / 5 hours for the Rose of Tralee, oy. Reminiscence: naively thinking to drive through, I once got stuck in the midnight aftermath of that fine festival. The pale moon was rising above the green mountains, and hundreds---t'ousands?---of lovely lurching lasses & Stout-hearted lads were all dressed up & bobbing & weaving in raucous pedestrian gridlock. Was that the Truth I saw, in their eyes ever dawning? Thought I was Back in Nyew Yawk City. :) |
|
25 Aug 02 - 12:11 PM (#771279) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST Some of us are neither Fine Gael or Fianna Fail, and have supported neither Dev or Collins. Some of us have remained Sinn Fein all along. I'll leave it to the Irish blue shirts and liberals among you to fight for the low ground. |
|
25 Aug 02 - 12:19 PM (#771283) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: The Pooka "Some of us have remained Sinn Fein all along" SF *all along*! Well anyone who has reached such a great age is entitled to great respect, venerable guest. Slainte, indeed! :) --Liberally BlueShirted, JacketedGreen, OrangeOrdered, RedWhite&Bluenosed Pook Mahone, sailing for the lowlands low. |
|
25 Aug 02 - 12:44 PM (#771295) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST I think you are being pretty dismissive there Mr. Liberal Blueshirt. OK, my remarks were pretty tongue in cheek, but so what? I was merely commenting that many Irish republicans and Irish nationalists trace their nationalist roots back through Sinn Fein and not through the Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, including many in the six counties, and the border counties. We don't all agree on the republican and nationalist histories as they have been rewritten and canonized by Free Staters... |
|
25 Aug 02 - 01:06 PM (#771304) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: The Pooka Fair enough, guest. Let us agree to disagree. My apologies for committing dismissiveness. For what it's worth, this Yank thinks SF's political gains in NI, and in the recent Republic elections---up from 1 (border-county) seat to 5 including Dublin & North Kerry, & just missing a Dublin Central 6th---are a good thing. Politics are the way to go. Ultimately, it is the ballot that will unite Ireland. |
|
25 Aug 02 - 01:09 PM (#771311) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Peter K (Fionn) Collins (a 29-year-old post office clerk) and Co were up against not only Lloyd George - a tough enough politician on his own - but also several other of the toughest politicians in the British Empire including Austin Chamberlain, Lord Birkenhead and Winston Churchill. For Dev not to lead the Irish delegation was folly. Or given his disposition, sheer bloody-minded arrogance. The British delegates had the dilemma of being in a coalition government that depended on continued support from the Tories, then led by a man who was probably clinically mad (Bonar Law). The Tory conference coincided with the treaty negotiations, and a powerful faction were in favour of bringing down the government and going for war with Ireland. What our guest calls "shenanigans" were put to the vote in the independent Irish parliament, over which Dev presided. Dev should not have allowed that if he was not prepared to abide by the result. The treaty won majority support in the Dail (parliament) and Dev, instead of recognising he'd lost the argument, opted for a catastrophic civil war, in which Collins and many thousands of Ireland's finest died. Hindsight supports Collins and the treaty. Few would try to argue now that the civil war did anything but set back the cause of a united Ireland. It would have been achieved long since, much as Collins foresaw, but for Dev's fantastic petulance. |
|
25 Aug 02 - 01:18 PM (#771317) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST Just like we don't all agree to the Free State histories, not all of us are looking backwards either Fionn. The most recent election results were quite good for Sinn Fein, the oldest political party in Ireland, and the most forward looking. Sinn Fein is one of the few parties in Ireland pulling in serious numbers amongst young voters. Young voters who aren't buying the Fianna Fail or the Fine Gael histories, as they know how destructive both Blueshirt fascism (Fine Gael) and conservative Catholic nationalism (Fianna Fail)and it's descendant the Celtic Tiger, have been to Ireland. The new day dawned back in September 1994, Fionn. But you seem to be one of the begrudgers. That is your loss, but thankfully it isn't Ireland's. |
|
25 Aug 02 - 01:58 PM (#771332) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: The Pooka Spot on, Fionn. / Awww now, Guest. I still say (granted, a bit quietly) C'mon the Shinners, for their democratically-won gains; and "conservative Catholic nationalism", OK, close enough. But "Blueshirt **fascism**"? Re *today's* FG (or, what's left of it after the last elections)? And, that awful national disaster the Celtic Tiger, fascism's decendant?? Agreeing to disagree, I disagree. Capitalism may not be a good thing but it is hardly an exclusive attribute of fascism. Nor do Rightists have any monopoly on public (and private) corruption. Shall we smite all SFers as damned atheistic Red hooligan terrorists and/or their descendants? Let us de-escalate the rhetoric. |
|
25 Aug 02 - 03:56 PM (#771373) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Peter K (Fionn) I don't think we disagree that much, most recent guest. It was a guest, maybe not you, but certainly not me, who leapt to judgment on Collins and the treaty, so I think I was entitled to address the point. I'm all in favour of looking forward, but it's worth remembering where we've been. History is experience: we learn from it. My only quarrel with SF is its petty nationalism. Nationalism isn't worth the candle. |
|
25 Aug 02 - 04:29 PM (#771384) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Allan Dennehy Collins was the best of them all, in my book. Maybe, had he lived to a ripe old age, he would have admitted in hindsight that our pathetic priest ridden Free State had nothing to offer the protestant man up north. I believe that, given the chance, that we would have treated the protestants up north just as disgracefully as they treated the catholics. Sadly Allan |
|
26 Aug 02 - 06:16 AM (#771641) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim You can't make retrospective value judgements about Irish, or any other, history. "Pathetic priest ridden" is accuate enough to the MODERN mind but takes no account of the historical circumstances which produced it, i.e. the Reformation, the Ulster Plantation, the 1641 Rebellion (and the anti-Catholic black propaganda arising thereof), the Williamite Wars and the Penal Laws, not totally repealed until 1829. I'm glad tho that this interesting and valuable discussion is being conducted civilly. |
|
26 Aug 02 - 08:02 AM (#771660) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST,Marian, Lnodon I don't have much information here and I'm a novice at this stuff so I hope you will all forgive me if I transgress any of the etiquette rules. Perhaps I should be starting a new thread. During a conversation about Irish Republican songs (or "rebel songs" as one of the participants succinctly described them) someone mentioned a song about Michael Collins which he had heard somewhere. His point, I think, (the conversation took place in a pub) was that this song at first appeared to be very much in the Republican Song tradition but was actually a bit more complex. (I'm not trying to start an argument here about the nature of these songs.) He mentioned something about the lyrics quoting George Bernard Shaw. Sometime later I came across a thread in here where someone quoted a verse of a song. And now I can't find it again. Later again I read Shaw's letter to Collins' sister after his death. And I came across the phrase "…hang up your brightest colours…" Having finally put two and two together I went back to look for the thread or posting or whatever it's called. Couldn't find it. None of my friends remembers the conversation in the pub. Big surprise. Can anybody out there help me? This message seems to be getting a little bit long. Sorry. If anyone wants to advise how to do this stuff better I'll be grateful.
|
|
26 Aug 02 - 09:11 AM (#771677) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST I agree that petty nationalism isn't worth the candle, but I wouldn't say that nationalism has no positive function in modern democracies. Nonetheless, it's the capitalist excesses of the past decade that are the much greater threat to Ireland, not petty nationalism. All that changed with the IRA ceasefire in 1994. Sinn Fein has a meaningful role to play north and south, as a serious alternative to Labour's and Fianna Fail's political and economic ideologies. They certainly backed the right horse on the EU vote in the Republic, and they have been one of the few voices on the political landscape that has dared to challenge the Celtic Tiger propaganda. BTW, I would disagree that Sinn Fein is the worst party when it comes to petty nationalism. Historically speaking, Fianna Fail and Fine Gael managed to drive that stake through the nation's heart without any help whatsoever from Sinn Fein, which was never a viable party (or even a political force) until 1996. You can't argue the fact that it is one of the few parties in Western Europe to make any meaningful gains on the traditional parties in recent decades. Most countries, like Britain and France, are moribund in that sense. Europe's success will only come with as substantial an infusion of new blood to the political landscape as Ireland has seen with Sinn Fein and, to a lesser extent, the Greens. The Greens could have had a much broader impact in Ireland, if only they hadn't absorbed the morally bankrupt position on the north of Fine Gael, Labour, and the PDs. Terrorist or not, Sinn Fein has been the only party that ever put forward realistic solutions to the Troubles and institutional discrimination in the north. The reason why their platforms were more realistic than any other party's is quite simple: they actually represented the constituency which was the aggrieved party, north and south. |
|
26 Aug 02 - 09:30 AM (#771687) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: JedMarum thanks for the discussion, all ... those of us with a keen interest who live far removed from the situation can only guess which histories and what rhetoric hold the truth. Perhaps we end up accepting those points of view to which we are most predisposed ... in any case, your discussion here on the subject is most helpful. |
|
26 Aug 02 - 09:45 AM (#771696) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Peter K (Fionn) Marian, have a look at Paddymac's and Fiolar's comments in the Foggy Dew thread. It's a cracking thread anyway - Big Mick, Jimmy C etc in great form! I can't find any references specifically to a song, either at Mudcat or anywhere else. But someone will know it. You might get better results if you start a thread with "hang out your brightest colours" in the title. In the meantime I'll send a personal message to Martin Ryan in the hope that he will see it soon and chip into this thread. Is suspect that if he can't help, no-one can. |
|
26 Aug 02 - 10:04 AM (#771704) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Peter K (Fionn) Not sure what's morally bankrupt about the Greens' position on the north. Unification of Ireland would have come faster if it hadn't been such a colossal and corrosive obsession. Re-unification of Germany was not the result of any campaign to that end. Sinn Fein might look to countries like Hungary, who would have much more to complain about than Ireland if they wanted to waste their time and lives trying to undraw changed boundaries. It was you, guest, who debunked history. So just settle for the republic as it is now. And roll on the day when Ireland and the UK countries are merely regions of Europe. What the hell does it matter which country owns which territory? What's critical is not who governs, but how. |
|
26 Aug 02 - 10:27 AM (#771712) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST Fionn, I'd counter with no country "owns" any territory, they conquer and rule it, much more often with bullets and bombs than ballot boxes. The history of so-called democracy hasn't changed that fact either. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying, does it? I didn't debunk history though Fionn. Just challenged some poster's versions of it. There are as many disastrous cases of attempted reunification from partitioning by the European imperial powers as not. India and Pakistan. The Middle East. A French and American example is Vietnam. Then there is the colonial/post-colonial struggles in Africa. No, it's been a bloody campaign worldwide to rid it of Europe's colonial excesses, Fionn. A damn bloody campaign. And with India and Pakistan, those conflicts rooted in partition are being played out with games of nuclear brinkmanship. Get your head out of the oppositional British vs Irish mindset, which Fianna Fail and Fine Gael and Labour and Tory and SDLP and Unionist and all the other British and Irish parties are hopelessly mired in, take quite a few steps backward, and have another look at the geopolitical ramifications of European empire building which still remain. I think any reasonable person would take the Troubles in Ireland over the Troubles in Kashmir any day. |
|
26 Aug 02 - 10:59 AM (#771721) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST,sorefingers What bothers me a lot, Guest, is that you seem to think SF would be better for the ROI. It is not that the country deserves less after all the suffering of ecomomic boycott - 1949 - unitl fairly recently. Indeed nobody, Nigerian or otherwise, would have wanted to live in such misery; rather it is the almost confederate attitude of so called Nationalists of those days - we see them again today! - that could again turn the Island into The Banana Republic of Slaintebackshooting. You see Guest the reason why it was in such a mess after the end of WW2 was not because the British had continued an embargo but the very folks who were supposed to be helping the people were busy - see Argentina today - lining their pockets from the few bob the Emigrant workers on British building sites sent back. The lazy nationalist heros got well paid jobs in Aerlingus, RTE, Bank of Ireland, the Garda Shiochona and so on, and to make what was a bad situation worse these great err men ... made certain Ireland would remain isolated, ignorant and POOR! by making travel to it a RANSOM, by deliberately destroying native Industry, by kissing foreign = American and British ass - in legaly banning the public accesss to the technologies that would have empowered them, ie Radio and Electronics YES SIR they did this and more! While the good people of that country slaved away in Britain they seen people like you attack with bombs and guns the very people who put food on their tables - the British - the very people who were it not for Dev and his eejit mentality, would have given the wee island a leg up long long ago. At home the SF mentality worked at shoving a dead language down their throats and made that the condition of employment - Joe Stalin would've been proud of them! - by telling little children the cause of all the misfortunes in their lives was the British they guaranteed yet another 50 years of mayhem, pogram and murder. It was folks like you who on the one hand went around spouting hatred and division - I am surprised the Church of Ireland did not organise it's own rebellion - all the while sucking the pockets of a poor nation until she almost BLED TO DEATH. SHAME SHAME SHAME SHAME on you and you kind! Allowing the North to be goverened by eeejits like you will never ever happen and here is why. Not only do the Loyalists majority not want it, but the Irish diaspora in the UK as well, because they of all the Irish best know what a croc of shit you and your kind are! Now I feel slighly better - pass me a large Brown Ale and a pack of Crisps.
|
|
26 Aug 02 - 11:48 AM (#771757) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: The Pooka Guest Marian, From 1996 article in The New Republic: Collins was killed on August 22, 1922. By strange happenstance, just three days earlier, he had dined with Mr. and Mrs. Bernard Shaw, who were visiting the Free State. (Collins was an avid reader of Shaw.) On August 24, back in London, Shaw wrote to Collins's sister, Johanna: "Don't let them make you miserable about it: how could a born soldier die better than at the victorious end of a good fight, falling to the shot of another Irishman--a damned fool, but all the same an Irishman who thought he was fighting for Ireland...? I met Michael for the first and last time on Saturday last, and am very glad I did. I rejoice in his memory, and will not be so disloyal to it as to snivel over his valiant death. So tear up your mourning and hang up your brightest colors in his honor." There's also a documentary film about Collins entitled Hang Up Your Brightest Colors. Song: From http://www.eirefirst.com/m.html - author not listed, I think - MICHAEL COLLINS The bark of a dog breaks the silence like a bitter last hurrah And a raven spreads it's wings for flight over fields near Beál Na mBláth With a rifle still clasped to his breast, but hanging low his head A black August day in the County Cork, Michael Collins is dead Hang out your brightest colours, his memory now recall Each one wants a part of him but no-one wants it all Working over in London town when he joined the I.R.B. Sworn to use, both, deadly force, his native land to free His squad is ready and willing to strike, his love for his ruthless charm The Laughing Boy smiles at the castle, it's a smile to cause alarm Chorus A British intelligence agent is working from a Dublin room Michael Collins adds a name to a list that will take men to the tomb A spy slowly rises from his chair and walks across the floor A man with a parabellum is knocking at the door Chorus Returning then to London town, who will take the blame? The Treaty lies before him, Michael Collins adds his name A darker time lies across the land, who will bear the load? An awkward hero in an armoured car on an Irish country road Chorus The bark of a dog breaks the silence like a bitter last hurrah And a raven spreads it's wings for flight over fields near Beál Na mBláth (Derek Warfield wrote a different song with same title, honoring Collins. Derek is, or was, of The Wolfe Tones, the premiere entertainment corps of SF/IRA republicanism. So, it *must* be OK to like Michael: I rest my case.) Lots of links to Collins-related websites. |
|
26 Aug 02 - 03:49 PM (#771871) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim The lyrics of about 4 or 5 MC songs were posted a couple of months ago, some by me some by Fiolar, from memory. The song posted by The Pooka has been recorded by "Cormac O'Moore" (not his real name), an excellent vocalist. It appears on two different albums, "A Rebel's Heart", and "Patriotic Names", both still available, tho not in Virgin Megastore and places like that! |
|
26 Aug 02 - 03:51 PM (#771872) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Jim McLean "And yet De Valera is partly to blame For shirking his part in the Patriot Game" Dominic Behan's The Patriot Game Jim McLean |
|
26 Aug 02 - 07:21 PM (#771987) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST Guest sorefingers, Upon reading your post, I immediately dispatched to you, as requested, a large Brown ale, one packet of crisps, and (as my gift) a year's supply of Valium. Do write when you get work. |
|
27 Aug 02 - 05:49 AM (#772204) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Declan There will be a feature on the unveiling of the Collins Statue on "Nationwide" on RTE1 TV at 18:30 Irish time tomorrow night (Wed 28th). It will probably be no more than 10 minutes out of a 30 minute program. I managed to avoid most of the first half of the Rose of Tralee coverage last night (8pm until 11:20, with a half hour break for the news)- the coverage will be at least as long tonight. RTE have been giving this level of coverage to this competition for about twenty years now. I'm sure its very important to the girls in the competition and the communitities which they come from, but in my book it makes for very boring television |
|
27 Aug 02 - 09:31 AM (#772282) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Jimmy C Guest sorefingers. What a tirade, where are youfrom ?. The loyalist majority in the 6 counties at the moment stands at 51%. SOME MAJORITY. The Irish diaspora in england have no say in the matter, it is the irish who reside in the country that will decide. Whether it is good or bad for the country is not the point. Democracy is the goal and in the not too distant future the democratic process will ensure a united Ireland - for better or worse and all the loyalists and irish exiles in the world will not be able to prevent it. It is coming - live with the fact. BTW, ther is no such thing as a dead language as long as there are 2 people who can speak it. Irish is an official language of the country, it is not shoved down anyones throat, many people are working who don't have one word of Irish. |
|
27 Aug 02 - 10:22 AM (#772311) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST In the Republic, many contemporary Diasporans are allowed to vote by absentee ballot. While I am an enthusiastic supporter of the Irish language (and speak it as badly as the next Irish person), I do understand the resentment among many English speaking former students of the Republic's Irish language campaign. Making Irish the official language was the right decision, IMO. When you look at other cultures in similar fixes with their languages (ie surrounded by English speakers, English as the language of commerce, etc), Ireland did seem to get it more right than wrong, because the language has come back to a certain extent. You can't say that about very many other languages, particularly in North America, where the native languages have all but disappeared. Double edged sword, I guess. |
|
27 Aug 02 - 11:02 AM (#772340) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST,Marian, London This is amazing.More than I could have hoped for.And so quick.But I feel I have interrupted a serious discussion.The lyrics are pretty interesting tho a couple of phrases dont make too much sense to me.Is the word I'm looking for ambiguity or ambivalence.If I cant find the recordings mentioned by big tim I may be back again to interrupt the intelligent people.That sounds sarcastic, not my intention, I'm really grateful. |
|
27 Aug 02 - 11:17 AM (#772348) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Peter K (Fionn) Jimmy C, I suspect your 51 per cent is wishful thinking. No doubt you support Trimble's call for a referendum, which is the sensible way to find out. Marian, this is first and foremost a music/lyrics forum which sometimes gets misappropriated for natters like this. You'll find that interruptions like yours are welcome anytime. |
|
27 Aug 02 - 12:14 PM (#772379) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Jimmy C Fionn, It is not wishful thinking, but it is fairly accurate. This is one reason I suspect why the census of 2001 has not yet been released, they don't want to frighten the loyalist population, some of whom think they are still running about 3 to i. Granted it may be more in and around Belfast and parts of Co. Down but in the other 4 counties especially Derry the loyalists are probably in the monority. When the day comes , hopefully the protestant population will not be subjected to the kinds of bigotry and racism that was practised on their catholic neighbours for so long, but if they are, all I can say is it's the faulkt of their fathers and grandfathers who took such great delight in keeping the catholics in their place, and it's also the fault of the Westminster government for allowing it to go on for so long. Being born and reared in North Belfast and having been subjected to many forms of bigotry from being "lifted" on a regular basis just because (1 I could speak a little Irish, 2) I carried a hurley stick going across town to a game and 3) belive it or not just because I did irish dancing - these things were enough to be considered a suspect for every burglary, hit and run, purse snatching , you mention it. There was barely a Tuesday night passed that a policeman was not waiting on me as I passed down Cliston street. I wast taken to Glenravel St Barracks on all kinds of excuses - line ups being the most common one. Keeping me and others long enough to miss whatever functions we were headed for. BTW, all of us in the line up were catholic from the same district, even when the crime was committed somewhere up the Shankill. Many times I believe there was no crime at all, but it was a way to antagonise us.
One example I will give about the bigotry of some loyalists (I am not talking about everyday decent protestants here) but dyed in the wool orangemen. I got a job as an insurance agent. The premiums had to be collected door to door in those days (1965). The office manager in his wisdom assigned me to the Tiger Bay area of Belfast, a staunch orange community. When these families discovered I was a catholic almost 40% of them cancelled their policies within 2 weeks of me getting the job. When I asked them why, right to my face they said " We do not deal with catholics and we do not deal with any company that employs catholics". The company was based in England. These things occurring year after year made me decide to leave, thankfully I came to Canada, one of the best countries in the world. Years later we got the bad news that my wife's brother had been shot and killed at his own door by loyalists. The gunmen were able to get into his street by passing an army patrol and 2 policemen on duty at the next corner, they also get away by the same route after firing 3 shots. My wife and 2 daughters went home for the funeral, of course everybody made a big fuss about their canadian nieces whom they had never met. The family planned a party for them the night befoe they were due to return to Canada. By a strange coincidence all the uncles were lifted for questioning that day and not released until the plane had departed for Toronto. These are only a few examples of what happens there and has been happening for many years, sheer unadulterated bigotry and racism at it's worst. What galls me is that the British government knew these thing were common for almost 50 years and did NOTHING about it. When the sh-- hit the fans and demonstartions started somehow the catholics were blamed and branded terrorists etc. Why any catholic there would want to be british is beyond me. Why any Irishman or woman would want to go England begging for work is beyond me. I was in London for 4 hours waiting on a ship and that was enough. I guess you know where I stand. |
|
27 Aug 02 - 12:32 PM (#772398) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Big Mick Good man, Jimmy. This is why I get so angry when the "I had a brother in a pub that was bombed" stories start. I ache for anyone who has lost a loved one to armed conflict. I understand that reality all too well. But all the IRA/dirty thug comments always exclude or play down the years of horseshit that caused them. I don't make many of these statements on this site these days, but yours deserved a "well done, lad". Now.........pray like hell that the peace that all the people of the North holds and the dream comes true. And why the hell haven't I met you on my forays to Toronto????? Sounds like a good reason for another visit. All the best, Mick |
|
27 Aug 02 - 01:02 PM (#772413) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: ard mhacha Jimmy C, I am with you all the way. We all have our stories of opression in these six counties in north east Ireland. Some of these stories are very hard to relate again, raking over them only brings back bad memories. I know a few others on this Site can relate similiar tales, what really annoys me is the know-alls that have all the solutions and have never set foot in this part of the world. The bigots will be with us for a long time and yes, Jimmy regarding the Census the manipulators are at their old games again, there must be something in the returns that won`t please the Loyalists, we await this Census with interest. Ard Mhacha. |
|
27 Aug 02 - 01:07 PM (#772417) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Airto Guest, Sinn Fein states, like yourself, that it is the oldest political party in Ireland. This is not strictly accurate. According to the SF website, it was founded in 1905. It goes on to explain that the name came into use in the early 1900s for a federation of nationalist clubs and that eventually all those to the left of the Irish Parliamentary Party became known as Sinn Feiners. The Ulster Unionist Party, however, was also founded in 1905. It seems even the high ground occupied by purists such as yourself fails to straddle both parts of Ireland. |
|
27 Aug 02 - 01:24 PM (#772429) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST Fair enough Airto. You seem to desperately need to find some way of countering my remarks, and so have come up with this one. Can you provide us with the evidence please? Verifiable dates and places. It is my understanding that the Ulster Unionist Party is not an all Ireland party as well. Shall we split hairs over that one too? So what is the rub with you Airto? That I support Sinn Fein and you don't? That you are a Mudcat member, and I an anon guest? What exactly is your gripe with my remarks? |
|
27 Aug 02 - 06:25 PM (#772520) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST,sorefingers I love the American expression 'chill out' it surely applies to this debate. JimmC, sorry you had to endure all that stuff. Hey Canada is a great trade up. There was an ould crow sitting on the top of the new statue on Monday morning and it took a dump. So what are we going to do? Guest a Christian would probably sign in here for they are not fed to the Lions any more - so what I want to know is what are you scared of? The diaspora is families split by emigration and certainly the folks still at home know what is wrong about letting the problems of the North swamp them. They have said not once but many times - No - keep it out of the ROI. |
|
27 Aug 02 - 07:51 PM (#772567) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Jimmy C Big Mick, Let me know when you are coming a bit in advance. I live about 45 minutes outside Toronto but would love to have a pint with you. Sorefingers, I don't really think you understood my posting, the problems in the north are all Ireland problems. The people living in the republic will have very little say in the outcome. If by some stretch of the imagination the majority there try to block the possibility of a united Ireland, after we were sacrificed so that they could have their "republic" (something I am sure Collins would have opposed if he had lived) then screw them. The Irish in the 6 counties will go it alone. Having said that I am confident that the vast majority in the 26 counties will welcome us with open arms, after all their ancestors did not fight to gain independence for only a part of the island. It's really sad that the likes of Mick Collins is not alive today, when we need more like him. |
|
27 Aug 02 - 09:02 PM (#772613) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST,sorefingers Dear JimmC, you could be right, I read the Irish Papers almost daily and report what they say. Best regards, hey do you recall a song went like "The sea oh the sea ... " |
|
27 Aug 02 - 10:59 PM (#772665) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Blackcatter What started out as a simple thread to report an event that would be newsworthy to many of us Mudcatters was trolled. It's a shame. Petty minds always seem to cry out the loudest. Still, all in all, I appreciate the fine words, opinions and facts shared by most in this thread. Collins is a hero of mine - not in a rose-colored glasses sort of way, but he was someone who appears to have done what he thought needed to be done and what a great many people consider needed to be done. The movie was a wonderful look at his life, albeit refashioned. The sequence of his death interspersed with Kitty looking at wedding dresses is, I'm sure not terribly accurate, but is certainly fine cinematography. "She Moves Through the Fair" has long been one of my favorites and when I first saw the movie, O'Conner's rendition chilled me through that scene. I also laughed at the scene where he's chiding the volunteers to no "riddle" the targets with bullets. Bullets being hard to come by and he talks to them in the same way my 4th grade teacher - who was from Cork - talked to us. pax yall and I'm glad that the Mudcat was represented at an event that has a lot of meaning in many of our lives. I was lucky enough to attend the funeral of Alan Lomax last month and it felt good to "represent" the Mudcat there. |
|
28 Aug 02 - 02:05 AM (#772748) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: The Pooka Hear hear, Blackcatter (& others of good heart). A fairly-recent NI poll showed somewhat (not much) over 50% for continued Union, low-30s-percent (I think) for joining the Republic, and the large remainder undecided. I say the first referendum will uphold the Union; and the second one, some years hence (wisely, there's a minimum interval in the Good Friday Agreement), will reunite Ireland's 32. In both, ROI will vote for unification. Inconceivable not to. Though a sizeable Republic minority will vote No, partly for economic reasons. |
|
28 Aug 02 - 05:53 AM (#772800) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Airto Regarding the date of the Unionist Party's foundation, Guest, I am merely quoting from its website. Have you any reason to question its accuracy? The purpose of my intervention was to point out that even Sinn Fein's thinking has been coloured by partition and engages in double think about what is Ireland and what is not. Your implication that somehow the equal claims to antiquity of the Unionist Party shouldn't count because it is not an all Ireland party is an illustration of this. In any case, at the time of its foundation the Unionist Party was an all Ireland party and many of its members, including Carson, opposed partition. |
|
28 Aug 02 - 07:11 AM (#772820) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim According to Brian Feeney's new bok "Sinn Fein:a hundred turbulent years" (O'Brien, 2002) the party was founded in 1905. He lists the Presidents as follows: Edward Marten (1905-08), John Sweetman (1908), Arthur Griffith (1908-17), Eamon de Valera (1917-22 and 1923-26), J.J. O'Kelly ('Scellg') (1926-31), Brian O'Higgins (1931-33 [author of many well-known rebel songs- BT], Fr Michael O'Flanagan (1933-35), Cathal O Murchadha (1935-37), Mrs Margaret Buckley (1937-50), Padraig MacLogain (1950-53), Tomas O Dubhgaill (1953-54), Padraig MacLogain (1954-62), Tomas MacGiolla (1962-70), Ruairi O Bradaigh [Rory Brady] (1970-83), Gerry Adams (1983-). Of the Ulster Unionist Party, the Oxford Companion to Irish History says ""the governing party of NI between 1921 and 1972. The Party evolved in 1885-86 as a protest movement, united by a broad antipathy to Home Rule but otherwise highly fissile". [this entry was written by Alvin Jackson, Reader in History at Queens Univ Belfast). Jimmy C: I'm truly sorry for your troubles. Enoch Kent is here at present for the Edinburgh Festival, he appeared on the Archie Fisher BBC radio folk show last week, gave an extensive interview and sang a few songs. It was great to hear him again.
|
|
28 Aug 02 - 07:58 AM (#772831) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Peter K (Fionn) As far as I know, no information from the English, Welsh and Sccttish elements of the UK census has been published either. The first was due in August, but I've not seen anything and there have long been rumours that the whole process of data collection was seriously flawed. Pooka, that analysis is probably dead on. I'm just not absolutely sure about the republic vote first time round. They've been having the time of their lives in recent years, so there will be some reluctance to bring nearly a million belligerent, seige-mentality prods into the equation. They could do as much damage to the republic as the Provos ever did to the north. Jimmy, I don't doubt a word of your experience. And I agree about Westminster's 50 years of indifference. That was shameful, as was nearly everything to do with the British Empire. But blaming present-day Brits for that is as facile as Brits thinking present-day Germans are Nazis. Good luck to you in Canada, but what you overlook is that over the years Westminster treated many Brits as badly as it treated people elsewhere in the empire. The Irish have always been entitled to vote in British elections, and their influence along with that of other pissed-off people helped shape British politics for the better. People change. Nations change. But for some reason many diasporic Irish just don't see it. Your casual acceptance of any mistreatment of prods, on the grounds of what their fathers and grandfathers did, is the kind of negative vibe that feeds conflict. Any demagogue can whip up a mob to that frame of mind, but you should be able to come up with better than that in the cold light of day. My guess is that the present-day prods will do enough themselves to earn any mistreatment they get. But let's recognise that their crazy (sometimes self-defeating) behaviour is driven by them having their backs against the wall, in the context of the whole island, and knowing this full well. (The idea that any think they have a 3-1 majority in the north is sheer rubbish.) Once people believe they have nothing left to lose, they are beyond the reach of rational argument. People in the republic could hardly be blamed if they decided to leave those northern prods as someone else's problem. They are a bit closer to the practicalities than those who cherish a homeland that exists only in their dreams. By the way, northern catholics are now heading to the republic in fistfuls, attracted by the booming economy. And the census is likely to show a declining catholic birthrate as catholics have become better off. You can count on notten, Jimmy! The show ain't over till the fat lady sings. |
|
28 Aug 02 - 08:00 AM (#772832) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST Well that would make the Unionists the oldest party in Ireland then, wouldn't it? So I suppose the history books best get reprinted to correct the error. Or are we, perhaps, not looking at the modern Unionist party which ruled NI between 1921 and 1972. I find it rather difficult to accept that their rulership ended in 1972 as well. As to the accusation of trolling, well...it looks like a case of the Mudcat "member/anon guest" bunker mentality that michaelr spoke of in another thread this week. I think the conversation is every bit as civil now as it was 48 hours ago. Disagreement is not trolling, despite the desperate efforts of some to present it as such. |
|
28 Aug 02 - 09:30 AM (#772876) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Fiolar Getting back to the unveiling ceremony - Liam Neeson said that Michael had helped him when he was in hospital in New York following a serious accident. He asked himself:"What would Mick do?" and in a great rendition of a West Cork accent, Liam declared: "You were told to do one-hour physical therapy - you will do two hours and be thankful for it." Liam went on to say that, "If my presence here today will help to keep alive his memory, I will be doubly honoured." |
|
28 Aug 02 - 11:00 AM (#772942) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Airto I agree with you, Guest. There's a difference between stimulating discussion and looking for an argument. I'm sorry for straying off the subject of Michael Collins, but one of the purposes of his commemmoration is to encourage some fresh thinking about our situation. I personally think we underestimate the effect 80 years of partition has had on all of us in Ireland and on those who left. The day the Catholic population in the North reaches 50% plus one, if it ever comes, won't change the need for both traditions on the island to co-exist peacefully.
|
|
28 Aug 02 - 12:18 PM (#772976) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Peter K (Fionn) Been menaing to say thanks for the eye-witness accounts, Fiolar. Almost feel I'd been there |
|
28 Aug 02 - 01:03 PM (#773004) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Jimmy C Fionn, I am not accepting ill-tratment of prods as casual, what I meant is they will be treated as they treat others, and if they follow or try to follow the same path that their fathers and grandfathers followed they have to live with the results. I agree that the both communities have to learn to live together, my God I pray for it every night. I still have 4 brothers, 1 sister and a daughter there ,plus numerous nephews, nieces and in-laws. I worry about their safety. As far as blaming present days brits is concerned, are you saying they are not part of the problem ?. when in reality they treated the problems in northen Ireland with apathy as if it was another planet UNTIL the bombs started going off in England. They should have taken steps to nip it in the bud much earlier, what they did do was send over an army that by their behaviour actually helped create the I.R.A.. The nationalist population could never depend on the police for protection and after a few months of the army coming in it was shown that they could not depend on it either so they had to take steps to protect themselves and the only avenue open to them was the resurrection of the I.R.A. Their behaviour in the nationalist areas of Belfast and Derry was disgraceful, their behaviour in South Armagh in particular was disgraceful and the acceptance of this behaviour by senior officers and politicians was disgraceful. I firmly believe that if the British army had acted in a non-partisan manner and tried to fulfil their mandate as peacekeepers the I.R.A. would not have had the hundreds of young men and women flocking into their ranks. instead they came into some districts like soccer hooligans with guns and uniforms, so yes they were and still are a big part of the problem This will be my last posting to this particular thread - I would much prefer to get back to music. Take care everybody. |
|
28 Aug 02 - 01:14 PM (#773012) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST I've a close friend from a well known Ardoyne republican family, who once said to me that if the Brits had only been just and fair in ending the systemic and institutionalized racism and bigotry in 1969, and opened the way up for the civil rights reforms which are now being implemented, none of the Troubles would have happened. Even in the republican communities in 1969, people wanted peace, security, living wage jobs, and decent homes and schools much, much more than they ever wanted a reuinited Ireland. |
|
28 Aug 02 - 11:01 PM (#773353) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: paddymac Thanks to all who have meaningfully contributed in ways big and small to this very informative thread, and to hell with the trolls. My 2p in re SF is to suggest that today's SF can not be fairly compared to the earlier versions. The party has substantively metamorphosed more than once, which probably explains its current vitality. |
|
29 Aug 02 - 06:48 AM (#773489) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim Good point Paddymac. I haven't read Feeney's book yet but I do know that SF wasn't a republican party until after the 1916 Rising, in which it didn't participate. Griffith supported a dual monarchy, making him non-republican by definition. Tom Clarke's widow Kathleen has some very scathing things to say about his politics (not the man himself) in her memoirs. Although he possessed an "old Howth gun" and was picked up in the big post-Rising sweep, he was quickly released. I guess abstentionism was another major policy change. Count Plunkett and De Valera, SF's first two MP's (TDs), both stood on abstentionist tickets, ie not sitting at Westminster. There's a great pic of Brady and Adams shaking hands in Feeney's book after abstentionism was ditched, captioned "The parting of the ways: following his defeat in the ard fheis on abstention, Ruariri O Bradaigh gives a less than cordial handshake to Gerry Adams. The two men's facial expressions say it all ". (Brady is looking resigned and beaten, Adams is smiling broadly). The book also as another good quote, among many, "Hello Sinn Fein, Westminster" - Gerry Adams answering his London office phone, 2002. |
|
29 Aug 02 - 02:44 PM (#773782) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim Most of you probably know this but...I've dipped a bit further into Feeney's book: abstentionism, both Westminster and Dail, was abandoned in 1986. |
|
29 Aug 02 - 04:12 PM (#773816) Subject: RE: BS: Statue of Michael Collins From: Peter K (Fionn) Jimmy, I think you accept that when Callaghan committed the army in 1969 it was to protect catholics, because the RUC had gone native with their prod brethren. The soldiers were welcomed on that basis, and yet as you indicate, they soon became the enemy. Why? In no small degree, this was the doing of the IRA, which had been deeply, deeply humiliated by the arrival of the British Army. They had simply not been there when needed -provoking graffiti on some catholic streets which said: IRA = I Ran Away. Now I'd be the first to say that any standing army is a clumsy instrument to deploy on the streets, whether Brit, Israeli, American, or any other. And there's no defending the response to the IRA campaign. Their strategy, so far as they had one, was to get the IRA out on the the streets so they had a chance of shooting them. Any time the Provos went quiet, the Army would searh a few hundred catholic homes (that is, trash them at three or four in the morning, ripping out floorboards, bathrooms, pissing on beds etc, while terrified kids and mothers looked on) in the hope of forcing another gunfight. Some of the soldiers and some of the officers were simply thugs, such as armies tend to attract. But even with the army I would hesitate to generalise. I know people in both the Turf Lodge and New Lodge areas who had great respect for some individual officers. My only point is that the way it all evolved was more complex than Westminster simply selling catholics down the river. That was never the intention, not even of the Tories, and not even with their biggest blunder (which you forgot to mention, Jimmy!) which was giving Faulkner his way on internment. With Northern Ireland spilling on to the agenda in Westminster at last, the Tories soon regarded their unionist pals as a monumental embarrassment. (Incidentally although it was a Labour government that tried to implement the Sunningdale agreement - wrecked by loyalists - it was drawn up while the Tories were in office.) Yes, the politicians cocked up and yes, they did listen too much to their own army chiefs. And yes, they were as soft on their criminal squaddies as most nations sadly seem to be. But to condemn a whole nation for these failures - and to condemn fellow Irish who have been welcomed in that nation in their thousands - seems a tad mean-spirited to me. Especially so in the present climate. Not every government (witness Spain) would allow a political party to play a full part in the democratic process while it still kept at its disposal a private army, under arms. If you want to see reconciliation, Jimmy, don't waste your time praying for it. Let's start trying to understand other people's points of view, as I believe Martin McGuinness and David Irvine are both trying to do. (If any of us had been born and bred on Sandy Row, there's a good chance we'd be die-hard loyalists now, or a least supporting Rangers.) |