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22 Sep 02 - 10:15 PM (#789299) Subject: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing Bobert, I haven't the info on the congresspeople, yet, but came across this from a few years ago and thought parts of it might still be helpful as far as suggestions go, so will start with it: "Join others pledging opposition to the war against Iraq in a powerful, pro-active peace movement, promoting a more peaceful and just global community. "'A time has come when silence is betrayal. That time is now.' Martin Luther King Jr." I pledge to take the following action: (check as many as apply) ____ Write a letter to the editor of my newspaper ____ Form a delegation to visit a local newspaper to discuss Iraq coverage ____ Introduce a resolution to my organization or faith community ____ Engage at least one new person in conversation about Iraq: ____ Daily ____ Weekly ____ Call the President to urge him not to wage war in Iraq ____ Call my Congresspeople (Congressional Switchboard 202-224-3121 or individual local numbers) to urge no war on Iraq: ____ every weekday ____ weekly ____ Write a letter to my Congressperson and Senators (to their local offices because of problems in DC mail delivery) weekly. ____ Participate in a public event such as a vigil or picket: ____ weekly ____ monthly ____ Other (please specify, be creative and report your efforts so we can post them)" |
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22 Sep 02 - 10:19 PM (#789304) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST kat, you have written this message as being addressed toward 'Bobert' would it be wrong for anyone else to enter comments? |
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22 Sep 02 - 10:30 PM (#789314) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing I was responding to a request of his, but of course the thread is open to any and all. |
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22 Sep 02 - 10:46 PM (#789331) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Another thing that I would suggest is to bookmark DemocracyNow and keep an eye out on things that are coming up that you might become involved with. This is going to be a long stuggle, folks, and those of you who want to be heard, DemocracyNow is a start. I would hope that anyone who has other links that promote peace thru non-violence will add their sites here on this thread. Bobert |
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22 Sep 02 - 11:09 PM (#789343) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing Here is that site: DemocracyNow |
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23 Sep 02 - 12:04 AM (#789357) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: JohnnyBGoode cat, good idea for a thread conversations about war and peace seems right to me. |
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23 Sep 02 - 12:10 PM (#789634) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Now, I hear that there is a liitle grumbling on the Senate side. Senator Robert Byrd, from my home state of West Virgina, who is considered to be the "Constitional Scholar" of the US Congress has come out and challenged the *Resolution* that Bush has sent as so far wide sweeping as to threaten the checks and balances of our system. I still do not have the dates for the October protest but will post them as soon as I know them and where the protests will occur. I would hope that, with such little time to mobilize and organize, that the use of the internet will make the difference in getting folks into the streets. Bobert |
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25 Sep 02 - 04:37 PM (#791246) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing I just read an article which said several Democratic congresspeople are eager to have Jimmy Carter and Clinton both get involved in rallying opposition among the populace. They don't feel they can speak up themselves because Daschle and Lieberman are so gung-ho about backing Bush. A few have stuck their necks out and deserve to hear from any of us who support them: Feinstein, Kucinich, Doggett, and Durbin. Please take a moment to let them and your own congresspeople know how you feel. Once a week is a good way of doing so. Thanks, kat |
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25 Sep 02 - 04:40 PM (#791248) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing Sorry, here's the link to where you can contact each of them: http://www.congress.org/ thanks |
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25 Sep 02 - 04:47 PM (#791250) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: DougR Bobert: get your facts straight, my friend. Your Senator (thank God he is yours and not mine)was courting the Union vote in the coming election in his remarks this morning on the Senate Floor. I heard him. It had nothing to do with checks and balances. The senate is arguing whether or not President Bush should be afforded the same rights every president has had since John F. Kennedy. Bush had them before 9-11. He no longer has them. That was the context in which your senator made his remarks. DougR
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25 Sep 02 - 06:00 PM (#791297) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert I'll have to get back to you on this one, Doug, since all I heard was one or two minutes of Byrd on "DemocracyNow" and that's what he was saying but it may have been out of context, but that what he was saying... Now, folks, there will be a anti-war demonstration this coming Sunday in Washington, D.C.. For those interested in being counted, folks are going to assemble at Dupont Circle at 2:00 pm and march a route that will go by several embassies and end up, fittingly in front of the guy with the biggest drum, Dick Cheney. If you can make it, I'd suggest that you take the subway in because parking and driving in D.C., especially with the folks protesting the IMF in town, is a pain in the butt. See you there. Resist! Bobert |
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25 Sep 02 - 06:09 PM (#791302) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing Please keep the arguments confined to the other threads. This is a thread for suggestions of ACTIONS which may promote PEACE. Thank you. |
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25 Sep 02 - 08:47 PM (#791406) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: DougR Brrr. I don't know about you, Bobert, but I feel properly chastised. :>) DougR |
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25 Sep 02 - 10:26 PM (#791440) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Amos Aw chin up, Doug. It's a knack she has! :>) A |
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25 Sep 02 - 10:35 PM (#791442) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Hey, Doug. I wasn't gettin' chastized 'cause I was talking about an anit-war protest. Sorry you got yourself in trouble, though. Bobert |
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25 Sep 02 - 11:17 PM (#791454) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing Please click here and read my last posting to see one reply which I received after making my phone calls, today, to the congresspeople whom I listed above. Thanks. |
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26 Sep 02 - 09:02 AM (#791668) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Dunkle In the FYI department: Here is a letter recently sent to Mr. Bush from the American Friends Service Committee; I offer it for the sentiments expressed, and for how well I find Paul Lacey can turn a phrase; if you're thinking of sending your own letter, this may be of help. Don Houghton
American Friends Service Committee President George W. Bush Dear President Bush: The Board of Directors of the American Friends Service Committee has instructed me to tell you how deeply troubled we are by the impending war with Iraq. As Quaker pacifists we do not presume to instruct you in tactics or strategy, for we are not experts in making war, but we know from experience war's consequences. For 85 years the American Friends Service Committee has worked with helpless victims on all sides in war--feeding children, helping to rebuild bomb-shattered houses and communities, and working with homeless refugees. Since 1948, we have been actively engaged in humanitarian aid to Palestinian refugees in Gaza and the West Bank and in peace-making between Palestinians and Israelis. Service Committee workers have gone in harm's way and seen war face-to-face. It is from that knowledge we address you. The aftermath of war in Iraq, where thousands upon thousands may die or spend the rest of their lives in pain and wretchedness, will be greater unrest in the Middle East and hatred of America for generations to come. A hasty decisiveness is no virtue. "Collateral damage" is a benign-sounding euphemism for warfare's accidental, unintentional harm. But our children and grandchildren, who will live with the collateral damage done to our constitutional rights and to the fabric of trust which sustains public life, will not forgive us because we did not mean to do harm. Harm penetrates no less deeply into our souls and our institutions for being unintended. And it perpetuates no less damage to civil society. We are relieved that you have turned to the United Nations as an instrument for reducing the danger of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and we pray that the Iraqi leadership will cooperate fully with renewed and unfettered weapons inspection. We urge you to give the United Nations time to work, not try to make it a blunt instrument of American power. We are told you want the United Nations to "show some backbone." We respectfully remind you that Jesus always addresses the human heart as the true center of courage, not the backbone. Time, you say, is not on our side, but we believe time is in God's hands and "to redeem the time" means to free the captives and the oppressed, to feed the hungry, relieve the poor, restore justice and practice the arts of reconciliation. In this period of grave peril to the world's safety and to our nation's very soul, many of your most experienced military advisers and statespeople, even the most hard-headed "realists," are warning against a war with Iraq. Each stanza of our great national hymn, "America the Beautiful," turns from celebration of the bounty and strength which God has granted us to a prayer of thanksgiving and petition. In that hymn we pray: "America, America, God mend thy every flaw, confirm thy soul in self- control, thy liberty in law." That prayer is the burden of this letter. The mark of a truly great power is that it exhausts every opportunity of negotiation and diplomacy, bears even the most excessive frustrations and challenges, rather than resort to its military might. For the great power, war is the very last resort, not the exercise of a preemptive option. We urge you, Mr. President, to show us the self-control, patience and long-suffering appropriate to a great power Use the good instruments of international law, international institutions such as the United Nations, World Court and International Court of Justice to resolve our conflict with Iraq. We would welcome the opportunity to explain our views in more substantive detail, if you could grant us that privilege. We are also writing to President Saddam Hussein, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan, and Prime Minister Tony Blair under this same concern. In friendship, Paul Lacey, chairperson
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26 Sep 02 - 10:51 AM (#791747) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Thank you Kat and Guest,Dunkle, et al. And I read with interest Rep. Lloyd Doggett's letter and speeches and this morning I am bouyed by a feeling that thru the efforts of millions of people quietly telling their representatives how they feel, that democracy isn't quite dead. The Friends letter that GUEST,Dunkle has shared with us above is a must read and when coupled with Amos's letter to the Iragi people, pretty much says it all. Now, back to what we can and must do *now*... For those of you who can get to Washington, D.C., this Sunday, Sept 29th, there will be a non-violent protest march beginning at 2:00 pm at Dupont Circle. There is a subway stop at Dupont Circle so all you have to do is get to any one of the many suburban subway stations and you're there, no fuss, no muss. For further details go to: www.endthewar.org which I hope Kat can convert to a blue clicky thing here for us. I would alos suggest bookmarking this siote as it will be providing information about other upcoming activities for which you may become involved. October 5-7 are designated "National Days of Action Against the War" and specifics can be found at the above site. Hey, I realize that many of you may have never demonstrated or written letters against a war, but if you feel strongly enough to speak here at Mudcat, then it is your obligation to do what you can. Even if its an email to your folks in D.C. *Please* take a few minutes that you would have used bantering about or talking music to do something *today*. Something. Peace thru nonviolent resistance... And *please, please* read or reread the Friends letter above. Bobert P.S. If anyone is coming to D.C. on Saturday for Sunday's march and needs a place to crash, PM me... |
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26 Sep 02 - 11:29 AM (#791772) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing Thanks for all of the info and the link, Bobert. Wish I could be there. Guest, Dunkle, thank you very much for that letter; Lacey does turn a phrase well. It's good to know that such as him and the Friends are bending the prez's ear, or at least trying, as well as those of the others. In Peace Profound, kat |
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26 Sep 02 - 11:36 AM (#791778) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST Well, we are in it, not because we chose it, but because they did. Now it is our business, as Clausewitz said, to know our enemy. Just who are these people and what is their motive? Historically wars have been fought for political purposes with the object of forcing defined courses of action upon hostile groups. What then is their objective? I cannot believe that even they feel that the enforced conversion of the Western world to Islam is a practical objective. What then is their objective? It seems to be dead infidels. The true believer apparently achieves personal satisfaction and religious merit when he kills an infidel - man, woman or child. This killing achieves no political purpose, but it makes the killer feel good. To fight this kind of an enemy calls for powerful philosophical leadership. We cannot just pick at them. (Remember Machiavelli's dictum that one must never do his enemy a minor injury.) But rather we must bring about a change of thought on their part. That is not easy. We must hope that it is not impossible, but we must reconcile ourselves to its difficulty. I must suppose that the underlying motive in this Holy War is simply envy - the root of all evil. We can punish it, but that will not eradicate it. Here is the consuming problem of the 21st century.
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26 Sep 02 - 11:58 AM (#791798) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Yo, GUEST, you are correct in that we can not eradicate differences but we can move mankind a step further down the road toward peaceful resolution. And, yes, we "must reconcile ourselves to its difficulty". Heck no, it won't be easy to stop this war but if we don't then who will? And when? And after how many more wars? Hey, this is our watch, and we must be willing to make the efforts to carve out a new way of dealing with conflict. The movement of people speaking up and offering alternatives that is going on now is unprecidented. The fact that thru the internet millions of folks have let their representatives know their feelings over such a short period of time is *unreal* when compared to how much work it took to mobilize folks during the Vietnam War. Years! But, hey, these are differenet times and the US has different responsibilities and expectations put on it by other nations. We are at a crossraods and blessed with a wonderful opportunity to not only demonstarte the strength of democracy, but to also show a certain humbleness that would go along way toward demonstrating to the world a new order. Can we count on you GUEST, to roll up your sleeves and pitch in in facing what you see as a "consuming problem" thru hard work and communication with others who we may think of as enemies. Bottom line: There's only one planet and we're all in this thing together. Bobert |
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26 Sep 02 - 12:59 PM (#791858) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Sandy Paton Caroline and I are lobbying for MoveOn.org, calling representatives, senators, friends, associates, etc., urging them to oppose Bush's threatened unilateral action. If we must fight to effect "regime change" in Iraq, let us do it only with a coalition of allies acting with the sanction of the United Nations. To do otherwise is to invite an incredible disaster in the already seething cauldron of the Middle East. Frankly, the nation I was taught to honor and respect is not one that would use it's superior military strength to bring about "regime change" in another sovereign nation. Saddam may be a devil, but he's their devil, and they must deal with him. In the meantime, weapons inspection by the UN team, and continued denial of Saddam's access to materials needed to construct such weapons, pressure from the United Nations, etc., must be the methods employed. War should remain only the last resort. Sandy (thinking of his grandchildren!)
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26 Sep 02 - 01:04 PM (#791866) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Thanks for the site, Sandy. Maybe Joe Offer will come along and put the blue clicky thing to it. If not, Kat will. Bobert |
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26 Sep 02 - 01:12 PM (#791874) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST Dear Bobert. You can count on me to defend the sanctity of human life; if that requires me to fight I shall do so. If we can move other people/nations/religions to remove the insane violent enemy threat by peacefull means I am your man too. Human history dictates that we shall have to extract this cancerous growth painfully, and with some agression, before international justice and human rights prevail. The war on terror is not a war on terror at all. Terror isn't an enemy, it's a feeling. Your terror is what the enemy wants you to feel. Describing our efforts in terms of an emotional abstraction not only obscures the face of our adversary, but the nature of our mission. The enemy in this is the radical Islamist who argues that all non-believers in their faith must be killed. Religious wars have been with us for a very long time, and they certainly are more complex than the wars of nations or dynasties. I do not see that we as a nation are properly instructed in the nature of this one. The aim of the Palestinians is to erase Israel, as they have often said in both Arabic and English. That aspect of the current conflict is clear enough, but once a bunch of crazy Saudis blows up major office buildings on the other side of the world from their specific interests, killing thousands of people who did not even know that they were at risk, it becomes our principle and immediate problem to locate and identify the physical enemy. Those people we can kill. Their notion - that we are "kaffirs" and thus worthy of death under all circumstances - is, of course, a psychological problem rather than a military one. Those people on the other side seem to do a great deal of praying. Let us pray that their god will show them the error of their ways so that, pending that time, we can get them out in the open where they may serve as proper targets. |
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26 Sep 02 - 02:49 PM (#791932) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing GUEST, you already said the same thinghere. Please keep the debating in those other threads, rather than this one, as previously requested. Thank you. |
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26 Sep 02 - 03:28 PM (#791961) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Yo, GUEST,StuckRecord. Repeating a lie often enough does not make it true. You are *of the opinion* that Palestinians want to erase Isreal. You speak as if you have spoken with every Palestinian, but we both know that you haven't. The implication is just plainly, incorrect. And you are not a spokeman for the Palenstianian people. I would agree with you about terror being a feeling and would suggest that, in the manner in which folks are loosly useing the term, that people right here in the US have also been terrorized by *supposed* freedom loving citizens. I think the examples are many. Ask just about any black man or woman. Or ask any of the folks who are on the other side of isle, who have been demonized for their views. Ask the folks whoes lives were ruined by Joe McCarthy. Yes, history is replete with examples of man's failures to move manking further down the road toward civility. At some point in time mankind will have to accept the notion that war is the ultimate failure. As long as there a re powerful people who own leaders who profit from war, this won't happen until they are exposed. I'm thinking that time is now. The war that Bush ahs been poundin a drum for isn't about Islam. It's about power and money. It's about politics and greed. It has very little to do with Saddam, who in the past was our allie and who was all but given a green light to take Kuwait. And who profited from that war, GUEST? Hmmmmmmm? If you'd take half the energy following that money trail as you do trying to demonize Islam, you'd perhaps find that good guy/bad guy thinking of yours isn't really yours at all. Yeah, there are a lot of magicans out there with their smoke and mirrors. You gotta watch both hands, GUEST. Don't be a one trick pony in their ring. Think for yourself. Find the gray between the black and white. Find goodness where you see nothing but evil. Free yourself.... Bobert |
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26 Sep 02 - 08:27 PM (#792094) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST Bobert, Go study history (both curent and ancient) then get of your high horse and go see for yourself. I have been there, done that and bought the Tee shirt... If you saw the indoctrination and malignant side of Islamic extremism as I have you would be more afraid than you are. Apparently you people will just spout rhetoric and cry peace (which you may do because others fight on your behalf) pray God you dont meet these extremists on their field, because if you do you will be dead. |
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26 Sep 02 - 08:42 PM (#792104) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST Kat. Please limit the number of threads on the same subject and i'll be delighted to respond to one only. Apparently you dont like opposing viewpoints? But then you have such a high oppinion of yourself and your views that tolerance of others doesnt rate very highly. Carry on dictating to others, I pay no attention to it. |
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26 Sep 02 - 08:51 PM (#792109) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Troll Guest, American Peace Activists NEVER come into contact with people like the Islamic extremists unless it is at a peace march or anti-war fund raiser, in which any extremists present are on their best behavior. Their lives are sacrosanct because their cause is just. Besides, it's bad strategy to kill those whom you find useful. troll |
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26 Sep 02 - 09:14 PM (#792114) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Clint Keller The second most damaging terrorist attack on the US was by a crew-cut born-in-the-USA ex-serviceman who was, I believe, not an Islamic extremist. Clint |
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26 Sep 02 - 09:48 PM (#792127) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert GUEST: You take your extremeist, and probably white, ass on down into NorthEsat Washingotn, D.C. about 2:00 am on a hot Saturday night an see if you come our bragging all that "been there" crap. If you'd "been there" with your rightous-know-it-all attitude your "T-shire" would be looking more like Swiss Cheeze. Yeah, you ordered the T-Shirt. Get real. You can fool yourself with your dogmatic and racist hatred of Isalmic people, but you are not fooling me. I mean, get real... You want me to go kill Islamic people because they are alll the same? You think they are all extremists? Do you really believe that, my poor duped fellow Earthling? Do you. You want to find an extremist? Look in the mirror, GUEST! And don't do no more preachin' about how you did this or did that, 'cause you ain't done nuthin for your fellow man but preach hatred... Screw you and Osoma. You're both the same...... Bobert |
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27 Sep 02 - 06:52 AM (#792282) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Troll Thank you Bobert, for that calm and reasoned argument. If thats the way you argue cases in court, it's a wonder you haven't starved. Just for the record, you don't win any converts with that kind of inflamatory rhetoric- either Guest or anyone else. Or are you at the point where anyone who doesn't agree with your POV is a bigot and a racist? If so, the anti-war movement is in real trouble. troll |
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27 Sep 02 - 09:09 AM (#792330) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert troll: Sometimes you just have to shake your robe a little harder to get the dust off. I have been diddling with GUEST fir several days now on two or three sites and all he or she has done is preach racism while I have put up one argument after another. BTW, I'm not an attorney, but do represent my business pro sea in court and win almost all the time. But then again, I know all the judges, and just as important, the clerks of the court and always make small talk with 'em on the street. And just one other thing which I'm sure you know allready. There are wolves in sheep clothing in the anti-war movement who preach violence and racism and like Mathew said, "there are no secrets that will not one day be public knowledge". So when I sniff one of these infiltrators, I blow my whistle a little harder... Bobert |
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27 Sep 02 - 09:52 AM (#792350) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST So Bobert... anyone who doesnt follow your views is a Nazi Racist Right Wing Bigot? Interesting indeed. I have heard all this before; and many of my Palestinian Israeli African, Indian, Pakistani friends and business associates really enjoy reading it. thank you for confirming what I already know. You sit in relative safety and spout your so called Peace rhetoric, from a viewpoint that only you, and your clan are righteous. Reminds me of one Adolph Hitler and Company. Peace is the goal of all nations. There is not one decent human being who would have otherwise. I have no desire to wish harm on any race or religion. Had justice prevailed, and international law been upheld, non of the present conditions would have existed. Implementing a form of democracy in certain countries in the Middle East, and most of Africa, will take much time, education, physical effort, and money. How much have you contributed so far? |
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27 Sep 02 - 11:13 AM (#792399) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert GUEST: You got more wiggle-waggle in you than a snake. Now, because I tell you to take you single-mindedness and stuff it, I'm now a Nazi and Hitler, is that right. You say you have friends who are Palestinians and you say that all Palestinians want Isreal "erased". Hmmmmmm? A man is judged by the company he keeps. So your friends, but not you, ahhh, want Isreal "erased"? Hey, pal, your word, not mine. Or maybe you too want Isreal "erased". Hmmmmm? Is that so? You're not making a whole lot of sense here.... Let's go over yout position one more time for the record: 1. Palestinians want Isreal "erased". 2. You have friends who are Palestinians. 3. then, your friends want Isreal "erased". Is that it, other than you unwillingness to look beyond Islam as the root of the conflict, with no other factors coming into play? Well, that's the story you've been telling now for days. One problem, and now I read on another thread that the solution is to take out Saddam and his regime. Hey, how about the other Islamis folks? What about them? You think they're all going to become Christains overnight because Bush kills of Saddam? You story lacks credibility. Your lummping all people of Islamic Faith into this evil mass of people who just want to go around erasing other nations is no mpore accurate than lumping all Christains as anti-abortion, pro capital punishment war mongering hypocrits. You need to look at individuals as individuals, GUEST. Now, this may come as a big surprise to you but I have friends of Islamic faith from both Palestine and Pakistan and they don't share youir friend's views. Hmmmmmm? Like I said, one is judged by the company one keeps. Sounds like you got yourself surrounded by extremeist but then that doesn't make any sense since you want Bush to go off and kill extremist? A bundle of contridictions.... Bobert |
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27 Sep 02 - 02:48 PM (#792549) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: DougR Bobert: You don't believe the official position of the Palestinian Authority is that they would like to see Israel disappear? My, I do believe you are part of a much larger minority than I ever imagined. I don't believe that all Palestians, Saudi Arabians, Iranians, all Muslims, all Islamics are causing the current problems. I do believe that the religious extremists of the Muslim faith ARE, however. Someone in this thread reminded us of the tragedy in Oklahoma City. The point being, I assume, that not all terrorists originate in the Middle East. Extremists are not limited to any "one" sector of the world's population. That's what it shows me. Bobert: Continued, but thread creep. Your statement about the justice system in your home state does not offer much consolation to someone looking to receive fairness and justice in your courts. If they knew that their adversary won his cases by chatting up the "Judges and clerks of the court", they might feel they are not playing on a very level field. :>) DougR |
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27 Sep 02 - 02:51 PM (#792552) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: DougR Oops! I posted to a thread that I promised kat I would not respond on. Sorry kat. I guess I'm not the only one though. :>) DougR |
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27 Sep 02 - 03:19 PM (#792562) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy great song for everyone to learn and sing is Schooner Fare's "We the People" see 'Lyric Add: We the People Schooner Fare' thread |
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27 Sep 02 - 06:35 PM (#792668) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing It's okay, DougeR! I gave up! So much for promoting Peace, eh?:-) THANK YOU, Bill Kennedy! |
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27 Sep 02 - 06:51 PM (#792678) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Doug: I win my court battles because I am prepared. Most judges do not have patience with most pro sea representatives, but as I've been reping for my company for 18 years before the same judges, it doesn't hurt that they know that I know my way around. Hey, they are not corrupt judges and deciding cases based on the fact that I say "hey" to them in the streets, it's because I always have my documents in order. As for the clerks, it's nice to know that my case is going to be called early so I don't loose an entire day. Hey, that helps the defendant also because they won't loose a day either. And lastly, Doug, my business is not located in Wes Ginny but in the Republican dominated Loudoun Co., Virgina. They don't even put Democrats on the ballots for local offices. It's just assumed that everyone is a Repub. Yep, all the judges, and Board of Supervisors, the Leesburg Town Council... all Repubs... But, bottom line, your Repub. judges rule in my favor 90% of the time, even though I'm right 100% of the time... Bobert |
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28 Sep 02 - 01:28 AM (#792821) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST Bobert, What do you really do for a living? I am sure if you are involved in the judicial system, we are truly fucked... |
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28 Sep 02 - 01:57 AM (#792831) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: DougR Now Guest, behave yourself. Bobert: I am shocked! Grieved! I had no idea that the judicial practices of bygone days were still practiced in WV or VA for that matter. A wink and a nudge, huh? As an avowed Liberal, I would think that you sleep restlessly knowing that an important court case might be decided on the basis of whether Ole Bopert was liked or disliked. It causes me to wonder about the whole judicial system! And Democrats (who temporarily control the U. S. Senate) feel they are doing the country a favor by not approving well qualified candidates for federal judge positions appointed by our current president? Candidates who refuse to legislate from the bench? Judges that feel their responsiblity is to interpret the law, not make it? It boggles the mind, so to speak. DougR |
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28 Sep 02 - 02:00 AM (#792832) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: DougR kat: Nice of you to be so accommodating. I guess it's impossible to have a pure thread, as much as one might wish to. Some loud mouth like me is bound and determined (though not always maliciously) post regardless of the intent of the poster. Doug |
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28 Sep 02 - 08:36 AM (#792911) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert LOL, GUEST and Doug: Howz about you two starting your own thred on the judical system. This thread is about "promoting peace". And I'm guilty myself of responding to the question. Sorry, Kat... Back to promoting peace, My 17 years old son *is* going with me tomorrow to the D.C. Peace march. I'll get a few pics for ya, Kat. Bobert |
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28 Sep 02 - 06:54 PM (#793188) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Stephen L. Rich I'm on a friend's computer which is why I'm on as a guest, but, Kat, that is a very useful and productive list. Let's all follow through on, at least, one or two items each and a multitude shall be heard!!! |
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29 Sep 02 - 05:22 PM (#793629) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Walking Eagle Some of our church members have requested ( as a group ) a meeting with Sen. Arlen Specters' legislative aide. Group action speaks louder than a single voice, unfortunately. |
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29 Sep 02 - 09:15 PM (#793734) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Kat, Stephen L. Rich, Walking Eagle, et al. Oh, *bless* you all. The way we're gonna stop the war machine is throwing one wrench into the works at a time. Hey, when you think it took 6 years to mobilize against the Vietnam War, we are way ahead of the game BUT we are gonna really ahve to send that extra letter ot email over the next week. I cannot over emphasize how important that email or telephone call is!!!!! Today in London, I am told and maybe some of our UK Catters can confirm, some 400,000 folks assembled to tell Tony Blair to take Bushes war and stick it! In Italy, 100,000. The world is saying "NO" and it's time for Americans to keep up the pressure in any way that they can. There is a serious *lie* being told loudly and often to the the American people with a very sick man who is being led by Satan and who left to his devices is gonna get a lot of innocent people killed. A general speaking recently said that fighting in Iraq will be like watching the last 15 minutes of "Saving Private Ryan". Urbamn Warfare with lots and lots and lots of women and children killed by Apache helicopters firing on apartment buildings and lots of G.I.'s dieing in the streets and in tghe ahll ways of buildings. You kids, your bothers, your fathers, your next door neighbor or his kid. Hey, make the calls. Sent the emails. If you can make it to D.C. October 12th, be here and be counted. Do something todat to be counted. We can stop the war machine if we don't get comlacient. If we don't get lazy. If we just reach way down and do what we each can do... So, please, please, please, just send do one thing today to be heard. This insanity must be stopped. Peace thru resistence. Bobert |
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30 Sep 02 - 06:57 AM (#793918) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Troll "There is a serious *lie* being told loudly and often to the the American people with a very sick man who is being led by Satan and who left to his devices is gonna get a lot of innocent people killed. A general speaking recently said that fighting in Iraq will be like watching the last 15 minutes of "Saving Private Ryan". Urbamn Warfare with lots and lots and lots of women and children killed by Apache helicopters firing on apartment buildings and lots of G.I.'s dieing in the streets and in tghe ahll ways of buildings. You kids, your bothers, your fathers, your next door neighbor or his kid. " Proof please. Proof that Bush is sick and being led by Satan. Proof that we would be fighting house-to-house (that's only ONE of a number of scenarios). If this is the kind of argument you make in court... Well, I don't think you'd be employed much longer. Are you so in contempt of the intelligence of others that you think that all you need is rhetoric to galvanize the masses? Again I say, wheres the proof? troll |
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30 Sep 02 - 11:26 AM (#794010) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Troll: Where's your proof? Where was your proof in 1963? Tell ya' what, pal, I'll strat listening to your war drumbeat when you come back here with proof that you have enlisted, or your son has enlisted in the US Marines or Army. You are nothin' more than a spokesman for the military industrial complex. You want to huff-n-puff and send our kids to kill and be killed just to get your little jollies. Yeah, where is your proof? There are better ways to solve differences than what the military-industrialists want. I find it real intersting, that a lot of folks who are retired military-industrialist are saying no to your not so little war. Hmmmmmm? Wonder what that means? Lastly, though you remain anonoymous, you just keep this thought in mind. A lot of folks are warning you that the stove is hot. Touch it or touch it not... You'll have to live with yourself... There *is* a final accounting... Whose God are you hearing, troll? Bobert |
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30 Sep 02 - 12:39 PM (#794054) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: DougR Geeze, Bobert! Troll has been a mudcatter longer, I believe, than you have! One thing I will never understand, Bobert, is how those of you who share your POV profess to be so liberal in your thinking (not saying you are a political liberal!)but have no tolerance for anyone whose viewpoints differ from yours. And PULEESE, do not elevate Ted Kennedy from Senator to a General. It was Senator Ted Kennedy not a General that made that remark about the "Saving Private Ryan" movie in a speech last week at a University in, I believe, Washington D. C. You folks are so quick to quote anyone and anything you hear or read that favors your cause, whether it is accurate or not. Other than that, how was the March? I didn't see a lot of coverage in the main stream press or cable. No doubt because they are all controlled by the "Military Industrial Complex." :>) DougR |
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30 Sep 02 - 02:35 PM (#794145) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert I believe if you will go back to Kennedy's speech, Doug, you will find that he was *quoting* a general. This was not Kennedy's line. The march was great but the media coverage of it gets a well deserved "F", which was about what I expected. Now, I'm not speaking of C-Span because I just don't watch too much TV, but you'd hardly know it happened by the accounts of the networks and newspapers. Gotta go. Bobert |
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30 Sep 02 - 04:35 PM (#794241) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: DougR Bobert: I stand corrected on the Private Ryan Movie refrence. I should have known Ted Kennedy couldn't have been that creative. You didn't address the second paragraph of that same post though, and I'd really be interested in your comments. DougR |
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01 Oct 02 - 12:47 PM (#794863) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Sorry, Dougie, didn't mean to slight ya. My wife was waiting to use the pudder. Lousy excuse but its a true one. Well, we've had the "liberal" conversation before and you understand that to me its folks like you who *are* the "liberals" but that wasn't your question. But really, I have as much tlerance as I do passion and conviction. Hey, I really do like the idea of democracy. I just wish we had more of it. I think we would all be better off if voices from all corners are heard. Lately, we've been getting an overdose of voices who agree pretty much with your points of view, and very little oppositon. I mean really, think about it. Lets say, for instance that 36% of the population are against a war with Iraq then where are the 36% of the representatives who are speaking out against the war. Hmmmmmmmm? So, heck, I pay taxes but I don't feel as if ZI have ever had anyone who represented me. You pay taxes and you've got people falling over each other to get a resolution passes that will clear the war for war. No, I haven't answered the question directly but somewhere in my rambling I have hit upon some of the driving forces of our passion to be heard. In doing so, I think I and others with similar POV, are also fighting so that you too can be heard. It's the cornerstone of democracy, and as far as I'm concerned, there isn't a better system when it works... I think we agree more on this the one issue, if you think about it, then any other single issue, my friend. Don't hate, Communicate Bobert |
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01 Oct 02 - 12:54 PM (#794872) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: DougR Bobert: One thing for sure. Those of you who share your POV should give daily thanks to the Mudcat. Here just about any POV can be expressed without censorship. I think that says a lot for Max, Joe, Penne, and anyone else who is responsible for administering the "Cat." I think you are right about the majority point of view at the moment. I do believe that there are more people, at the moment, that share my POV in the general population. On the Mudcat, your POV is obviously the most popular with the majority of Mudcatters. DougR |
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02 Oct 02 - 11:09 AM (#795485) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Well, good, Doug, looks like we have a clean slate to muck up once again. With that said, since this is a thread on the peace movement, there will be a large demonstration in Washington, D.C. on October 26th. I hope that the "Ramsey Plan" will not scare too many folks away and just want to remind anyone who is coming to keep non-violence as the key toward being heard. Bobert |
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08 Oct 02 - 07:13 PM (#799167) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing These three days are crucial as Congress debates the resolution giving the president what he wants for going to war on Iraq. The following is not my best effort, but FWIW, I just emailed it to my senator and representatives. Please contact your congresspeople and let them know how you feel. Thanks, kat Dear Sir, According to a text version of President Bush's speech last night, he wants the world to know "that America speaks with one voice and is determined to make the demands of the civilized world mean something." I would like you to know, America does NOT speak with one voice on this issue. There are MANY of us who do not want this so-called war. It is, in my opinion, a War of Obfuscation, something to keep the American peoples occupied and unfocussed on much of what is going on in our own country which should be addressed immediately. I also do not like the fact that the resolution which is now being considered would allow the president 48 hours to "notify Congress" AFTER commencement of military action, and then only to inform them as to "why diplomatic efforts were inadequate." There should be no war on Iraq, especially without the backing of the UN and our allies. Your vote will be watched and remembered the next time you are up for re-election. (Please do NOT respond by mail. I prefer to save some trees and franking costs. My email address is provided. Thank you.) |
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08 Oct 02 - 07:59 PM (#799201) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST Kat: Right on, girl. I've been sending my emails on a regular basis. BTW, anyone who can make it to D.C. on the 26th, we need ya'. Yep, all legal, permits and all. Hey, it would be nice to see at least 30,000 which is just 260,000 shy of the Moritorium but we gotta start somewhere... If ya need a place to crash, PM me... Peace thru resistence... Email you congressfold today... Bobert |
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08 Oct 02 - 10:38 PM (#799250) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Don Firth Well, shucks, kat. It looks like this thread has really gone to hell. But back to your original intent, I just wanted to mention for those in the Seattle area who might care to participate, tomorrow evening (Wednesday, Oct. 9th) at 7:00 p.m. there will be a gathering at the First Methodist Church in downtown Seattle. From there, people will march up to St. Mark's Episcopal Cathedral on Capitol Hill. I have no idea how many people might be there, but I know that a large number of local churches will be represented. At the beginning of the Gulf War, there was a similar candlelight march that consisted of somewhere between 30,000 and 60,000 people, depending on whose estimate anybody wanted to believe (even the minimum estimate, 30,000, ain't to be sneezed at!). It was quiet, it was peaceful, and it was a powerful statement. Local press covered it, but it was pretty much ignored by the national media. Just to make sure the word gets out, I'll post a report when the march is over. Don Firth |
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08 Oct 02 - 10:43 PM (#799254) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing That's great, Don, thanks! Bobert, glad to hear the D.C. stuff is still going strong. |
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09 Oct 02 - 05:57 PM (#799827) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Don: Thanks for your report. The media is either ignoring the resistence movement or outright lieing about the numbers. On last Sunday's rally there were at l;east 10,000 (5 entire blocks, side walk to sidewalk) and the Washington Post buried the rally in t single paragraph and said there were only 1000 peolpe. Hmmmmmm? Same old crap... Bobert |
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09 Oct 02 - 06:15 PM (#799839) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Amos Trol: I can't speak for who is led by which discorporate entity, but I can tell you that the urban warfare scenario is considered likely by ligh level analysts as distinguished from a rerun of an open desert line-of-battle scenario. It would make sense that they would not try that approach after Desert Storm, and given the relative strengths of their air and land forces. But no matter how you cut it, the bottom line is the decision is going to result in some folks being awarded body bags. A |
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09 Oct 02 - 10:01 PM (#800028) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Amos, Amos, Amos... Hey, brother, this is the peace tent. Gotta ignore the trolls. Yeah, I know, I mighta' got sucked in once or twice my ownself but really, lets try to keep this thread about the resistence movement. I know it's not as fun as battlin' with knuckleheads but, hey, its nice to have a peace tent where we can keep up with what's going on. Eventually the trolls will learn to just stay out. So what's next on the left coast... We have a rally this weekend at the Capitol which I will not be able to get to but then on the 26th, I'll be back at it in D.C. and I hope that the arbitrary pre-emptive arrests of weekend before last will not be repeated... But if they are, hey, I haven't been arrested protesting stupid foriegn policy since 1969, so it will be like deja vu. Peace (or anit-war) thru resistence. Bobert |
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10 Oct 02 - 02:48 PM (#800520) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Don Firth TV news coverage was pretty sparse for last night's candlelight march and vigil in Seattle, which is disappointing but not surprising. The emphasis of the local 11:00 news was on a rather brutal murder and the subsequent capture of six suspects—"if it bleeds, it leads." They gave the peace march about three minutes, showing the inside of the First Methodist Church (wall to wall people), a shot of the streets (wall to wall people stretching for many blocks) and very brief interviews with a couple of marchers. They estimated "a few thousand people." ". . . and now for the latest in sports. . . ." The newspapers did a bit better, though. Here are the stories in the Seattle Times and the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. There was a march and demonstration last Sunday, from Volunteer Park (a couple blocks north of where I live) to the Westlake Center in downtown Seattle. About 5,000 people gathered that time. Things are just getting tuned up around here. This run-down in The Seattle Weekly from a week or so ago gives a fair notion of a few of the activities coming up. One of my senators, Patty Murray, delivered a very strong speech during the Senatorial debates last night. She laid it out there point by point, and didn't mince any words. The Congressional Representative from my district, Jim McDermott, has also been very outspoken, engendering the irritation of the Bush Administration a couple of times by having the audacity to go and see for himself, then speaking his mind. I'm still waiting to see what my other senator, Maria Cantwell, is going to do. I'm pretty proud of Patty Murray and Jim McDemott. Hey! That sounds like a great ticket for 2004!! Don Firth |
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10 Oct 02 - 03:13 PM (#800539) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing Bobert, just a reminder, Member Troll, who signs with a lower case "t"roll, is a well-respected member and should not be confused with the nefarious types who dip their bait using a Guest moniker of some kind.:-) |
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10 Oct 02 - 03:33 PM (#800555) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Bobert Sorry, Kat... (Bad Bobert, bad...) Though being a Greenie, Don, anyone who has the courage to stand up to Bush's *war machine* and risk being called a demon or unpatriotic by Bush's *war machine* PR campaign has just won my respect. Yeah, get 'em on the ticket and I'll tell Ralph I'm gonna have to break ranks just this one time... If more Dems had that courage then the Democratic Partyn wouldn't be in the mess it's in... Bobert |
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10 Oct 02 - 10:50 PM (#800808) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Troll Thanks, kat. troll |
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10 Oct 02 - 11:22 PM (#800824) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Sorry, troll... Bobert |
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11 Oct 02 - 12:22 AM (#800851) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing yer welcome, troll....nice ta see ya round here some more |
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11 Oct 02 - 11:59 PM (#801556) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Stephen L. Rich I hate to put a damper on the entusiasm, but our actions may not always be as effective as we might like. For the past three days anti-war demonstrators have held a sit-in in front of the offices of Wisconsin's senior senator, Herb Kohl. Despite tis sen.Kohl has decided to vote for the president's resolution. In the face of such setbacks we must not lose our resolve. We keep working. We continue the struggle. We try new tactics and new approaches. Stephen L. Rich |
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12 Oct 02 - 08:56 AM (#801689) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Bobert Stephen: Good for you guys. Hang in there. Hey, if you need an upper, check out the vote for the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. We're way ahead. And we'll get stronger. The battle line has now been firmly drawn. Just be mindfull that unlike the 60's the media is now, more than ever, on the other side of that line. Peace thru Resistence. Bobert |
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14 Oct 02 - 01:38 PM (#802907) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Okay, folks, October 26th is gonna be the biggie and a solid showing will go a long way to shutting down or slowing down Bush's "War Machine". There will be demonstartions all around the US and in many other countries. It's time to stand up and be counted. Hopefully Kat will follow this post and get these two web sited converted to blue clickies but here's where you can go to find out the nearest demonstration to you: www.unitedforpeace.org www.notinourname.org Hey, just 'cause Congress doesn't have the balls to stand up and be counted doesn't mean that the voters can't. Bush's war is not a done deal. Just think how little resistence there was in 1963. None. And look how far we've come in such a short time with Bush's Iraq-Nam. Also, Kat, if you can do a blue clicky thing for an article in this morning's Wsahington Post entitled "Anti-War Protests Get Louder in Calif.", I'd appreciate it. The "Post" I will point out barely covered the 10,000 to 15,000 of us two weeks ago, but, hey, they blow hot and cold... Peace thru Resistence Bobert |
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14 Oct 02 - 06:15 PM (#803074) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Stephen L. Rich Here are both site as blue clickies. Click Here Click Here |
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14 Oct 02 - 06:30 PM (#803080) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing Thanks, Stephen. I should have scrolled down and looked before I changed them in Bobert's post!:-) Here's the article: Anti-War Protests Get Louder In Calif. _____OnPolitics_____ • Today's Political News • Elections 2002 Coverage • Daily E-mail Updates _____The Iraq Debate_____ • A comprehensive guide to The Debate About Iraq with contributions from Jimmy Carter, George Shultz, Sen. Zell Miller, Charles Krauthammer, Richard Holbrooke, Michael Kelly, Gen. Wesley Clark and many others. _____Primer_____ • Iraq and the War on Terrorism _____News From Iraq_____ • Osama, Saddam and Max? Cleland Cries Foul (The Washington Post, Oct 14, 2002) • U.N. Pressed for Tough Stance on Iraq (The Washington Post, Oct 14, 2002) • The Case With No Easy Answers (The Washington Post, Oct 14, 2002) • More News from Iraq E-Mail This Article Printer-Friendly Version Subscribe to The Post By Evelyn Nieves Washington Post Staff Writer Monday, October 14, 2002; Page A01 SAN FRANCISCO, Oct. 13 -- In all the years he has spent on street corners, talking himself hoarse trying to convince the world that war is hell, Jeff Grubler has never been so popular. Life has become one big anti-war rally. Last Wednesday, Grubler, a volunteer with the American Friends Service Committee, agreed to lead a rally of 200 students at the University of California, Berkeley. On Thursday, he joined 200 people on a march to the Federal Building here to protest the congressional resolution authorizing President Bush to attack Iraq. On Saturday, Grubler spent a good part of the day sifting through a mountain of e-mails about upcoming anti-war events. Today, he led a teach-in at Stanford University. The prospects of a U.S. war on Iraq have prompted so many teach-ins, protests, marches and forums that he can't keep up. "In the Bay Area," said Grubler, a 34-year-old bartender who began working for the Service Committee about five years ago, "there are literally multiple events every day." In the Bay Area, bastion of the most liberal Democrats in the country, speaking out against unilateral action on Iraq is like preaching the dangers of binge drinking at an Alcoholics Anonymous convention. Anti-war rallies on two consecutive weekends drew 10,000 people each, and hastily called protests draw several hundred. Unlike the rest of the country -- or even the rest of California -- activists here can boast that most of their elected representatives (10 of 13) heeded their thousands of phone calls and voted against the resolution on Iraq. But the Bay Area is not, as some pundits would have it, "out there" alone. It is simply the most obvious place, veteran peace organizers say, to see a burgeoning national anti-war movement that is gaining momentum by the day. Peace groups believe they can still avert a war by convincing politicians that the majority of Americans oppose unilateral action against Iraq. Most Americans -- about 61 percent, according to a recent Washington Post-ABC News poll -- support using force to remove Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, but anti-war activists contend that is true only when people are asked the question in the broadest terms. When voters in the Post-ABC poll were asked whether the United States should launch an attack over the opposition of its allies, for example, support dropped to 46 percent. Most polls find that a majority of Americans believe the United Nations should be allowed to try diplomacy first. Approval of the resolution on Iraq, though disheartening to groups that spent weeks organizing citizens to inundate members of Congress with thousands of phone calls and e-mails registering opposition to a war, was expected, peace organizers say. (Even before the final vote, anti-war groups planned national protests on Oct. 26 in San Francisco and the District, hoping for at least 100,000 participants.) In fact, the resolution has increased the anti-war effort, organizers say. Some say politicians who ignored the will of their constituents and voted to approve the resolution will face repercussions, such as more protests and sit-ins at their offices -- and possible retribution in the next election. But the greater effort will be in convincing Congress and the president that war is not the way to go, said Mary Lord, director of the national peace-building unit for the American Friends Service Committee. "I think that the Democratic leadership made a mistake in thinking that voting for the war would get them off the headlines," Lord said. "Now there's going to be accelerated troop deployment. This issue is not going to go away." The latest Pew Research Center survey, taken early this month, found that 88 percent of Americans are following the Iraq debate very or fairly closely. No one can say what will happen to the peace movement if Bush does launch strikes on Iraq and the nation is plunged into a sustained war. But time-tested organizations such as the Service Committee, which is run by the nation's oldest pacifist institution, the Quakers, as well as groups that have sprung up in response to the threat of a U.S. invasion, talk in elated terms about how overwhelmed they are with the sheer number of people who want to join their effort, as well as the multiplying number of anti-war activities. They talk of a rising tide of student activism, of protesting by people who have never protested before and of an engagement on the issue that was absent prior to U.S. involvement in Vietnam. The Institute for Policy Studies, a liberal Washington think tank, had compiled a list of more than 250 anti-war events planned throughout the country over the next two weeks, only to discover it had missed at least 150 others. "People are organizing at all levels," said Amy Quinn, co-director of the institute. "I'm hearing from the older generations that there was nowhere near this level of activism at this stage in the Vietnam War. I'm not surprised that people are coming out against the war. I am surprised at how organized and vocal people are." Global Exchange, the San Francisco-based human rights organization that has been leading many of the anti-war efforts, created a Web site, www.unitedforpeace.org, just before Sept. 11 so that peace organizations could list their events. In the past month, as Bush began increasing his arguments to wage a war on Iraq, the list of anti-war events "in every state" has been growing by the day, said Andrea Buffa, a Global Exchange organizer. "Teach-ins, sit-ins, rallies, you name it -- I think that the nation is seeing a growing peace movement the likes of which we have not seen in a long time." Not In Our Name, an anti-war group based in New York, has been receiving more than 25,000 hits and more than 1,000 e-mails a day from all over the world on its Web site, www.notinourname.org, said Miles Solay, an organizer with the Refuse and Resist Project, an arm of the organization. A call from Not In Our Name for national rallies on Oct. 6 led to more than 40 rallies involving more than 85,000 people, he said. Although those rallies had hoped to affect the outcome of the congressional resolution, Solay said, many more activities are planned. Not In Our Name is organizing the Oct. 26 rallies and others. "There will be lots of response to the no-surprise resolution," he said. "On the day the bombing begins, there will be organized protests across the country. There's a new student movement growing all over the country. Thousands of youth are organizing and getting involved. . . . We are coming together." The American Friends Service Committee has launched an ambitious effort, organizing war protests by faith groups as well as student teach-ins, coalitions among anti-war organizations big and small, and citizen involvement in campaigns where candidates have expressed support for a U.S. attack, Lord said. "We'll be encouraging people to go to candidate meetings and campaign forums to tell them that this is not the way to get elected." That also will mean more calls to more politicians, as well as more protests directed at political leaders. Alpesh Patel, who has been leading protests at the San Mateo, Calif., office of Rep. Tom Lantos, one of the first local Democrats to support the resolution on Iraq, said he has found that there is almost unanimous opposition to war in the district. "With the vote done, we are not done one bit," he said. "We will be back in front of Lantos's office. We want to make it abundantly clear that everybody in this district who speaks for anybody is opposed to Lantos's war." Bill Ramsey, a coordinator for the Human Rights Action Service in St. Louis, who has been leading sit-ins at the district office of House Minority Leader Richard A. Gephardt (D-Mo.) and the state Democratic Party headquarters, said those protests will continue and multiply. "There are hundreds of people here engaging in action they are initiating themselves," he said. "The kinds of responses we're getting are astounding us." In San Francisco, groups are planning sit-ins at Sen. Dianne Feinstein's office to protest her vote for the resolution after the California Democrat expressed opposition to it a few weeks ago. Efforts to persuade her to oppose the resolution failed despite 11,000 calls that her office logged in the week before the vote, with only 150 of those calls supporting the resolution. Even House Minority Whip Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), who opposed the resolution (after receiving 12,000 calls from constituents in three weeks, with only 20 of those supporting the resolution), is getting calls complaining about Feinstein's vote. Brendan Daley, Pelosi's press secretary, said her office had received a few hundred angry calls regarding Feinstein's vote Friday morning. Grubler, who had expected the resolution to pass, said he would probably participate in a few sit-ins in the next few weeks. He specializes in dressing up and performing skits, which explained why he was wearing orange coveralls, a hard hat and rubber boots last Thursday -- his weapons inspector outfit -- as he walked through downtown San Francisco to meet members of the Service Committee at a weekly peace vigil. He was hoping to squeeze in some street theater, but as usual these days, he had no time. "I am sleep-deprived," he said, sighing at the current state of affairs for peace activists. © 2002 The Washington Post Company |
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26 Oct 02 - 10:46 PM (#812177) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Upwards of 200,000 in D.C. today to speak out against Bush's war. I was not able to be at this one but my 17 year old son Ben, bless his peace loving heart and his mother went. This was one heck of a showing considering the bad press with the Washington Post coming out on Wednesday suggesting that the ralley was being organized by anti Zionists. I mean, where do they come up with this utter crap? What were the numbers in your neighborhood? Bobert |
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27 Oct 02 - 03:37 AM (#812267) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Stephen L. Rich Kat and Bobert -- That's ecouraging news. It's good to know that one is not alone. It's also good to know that anti-war protest isn't just a Boomer relic -- that younger people are taking part.You've obviously raised the boy right, Bobert |
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27 Oct 02 - 04:31 AM (#812277) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Stephen L. Rich I just recieved an e-mail from the organization linked below. I'm not sure what to make of it. I'd love to hear other opinions on it. Stephen Lee moveon.org |
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27 Oct 02 - 08:36 AM (#812374) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Well, Stepen, I've been running up on this site over and over and I'm sure that some GUEST will jump in and say it's bogus, and I'm not sure it is or isn't. Being a Greenie, it's tough for me to be supportive of Democratic Party nominees. But then, on the the other hand, there is the distinct possibility of Bush getting the Senate he wants which will mean the working class is gonna get screwed. But then again, there is a part of me that wants Junior to have unfettered access to his agenda which I feel will expose his party as a bunch of mean-spirited redneck corporate rich folks who don't even stop to give lip service to the working class and can't blame Bill Clinton for their screw-ups. I don't think maintaining Dem. control of the Senate will have any bearing on Juniors blood thirst as the Dems seem to falling over themselves top show how ready they are for their piece of Iraqi flesh. Yeah, I really didn'd answer you question, Stephen, but I did give you a glimpse of my thoughts... Bobert |
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27 Oct 02 - 08:37 AM (#812376) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST Estimated 10,000 in St. Paul. I can tell you, that is a huge number for here--estimated as the largest anti-war rally since the Vietnam era. But it is being spun by the media as a "tribute to Wellstone". That way, they don't have to do their job and cover it as what it really is--a huge opposition to the current administration's policy of using the war on terrorism as an excuse to engage in unilateral military adventurism. There were many Wellstone campaign signs present, but it wasn't a tribute to Wellstone. It was most definitely an anti-war rally with all the trimmings. Let us not forget, over a million Iraqis have already died as a result of the Gulf War and the sanctions of the past 12 years. |
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27 Oct 02 - 09:49 AM (#812426) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing Stephen, it is a good organisation. I started doing op/ed pieces about them several years ago and have spoken to its founders. It really is comprised of thousands of people all over the nation, from all walks of life, all incomes, etc. who first got together, electronically, to send a message to Congress to cease and desist Kenneth Starr inquisition of Clinton. It costs nothing to be a member and all members vote on which issues to work on. Those members then carried on in 3D life, too, taking petitions, etc. right into the congresspeople's offices, meeting with etc. They are still doing this for the other issues. We've had some other discussions about it, but I don't think they've been indexed for the search, yet. I do know of several prominent Mudcatters who are members and do volunteer lobbying/campaiging as members. |
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27 Oct 02 - 03:01 PM (#812615) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Don Firth Nobody seems to be able to agree on how many people attended yesterday's anti-war protest in Seattle. Seattle Times report here. The Seattle Post-Intelligencer here gave the whole thing rather short shrift. However, the P-I has been running the following series. I'll see if I can get some info from someone who was there. Don Firth |
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01 Nov 02 - 05:32 PM (#816358) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing Thanks, Don, that's great! I received this by email, today, from anudder Mudder who received it from the woman who wrote it. A woman whom they know and respect. She wrote this after being at the march in D.C. My Mudder friend saw her on Sunday and said the marcher was "particularly impressed with not only the numbers of people there, but people from all walks of life-- farmers, college students, young and old, people who were well off and people who were not, and so on." Anyway, here it is. Please note: I do not totally agree with her on some points, but I do find her points valid and of interest. I hope you will, too. Thanks, kat!: ********************************************************************* My Blessed Family and Friends, those I know and those I have not yet met, I am not writing here as a member of any particular peace-seeking organization or faction, but merely as a concerned citizen... Please receive this message in love and peace, and an eternal trust that we will make a difference! I was silent... I was inactive... for far too long. The absence of my voice ringing in my leaders' ears has been perceived as my support for actions against humans both here in the U.S. and abroad. In the past, when I had opportunities to attend rallies or marches, to write my congress-person, to channel grassroots information from one person to many others, I used to think, "I'm just one person. If I don't speak out or act up, it won't make that much of a difference." That is, until this past weekend, when I was blessed with the opportunity to attend the Anti-War rally and march in Washington, DC. I see now how important my one voice, my one body is to raising the consciousness of our leaders. Despite a throbbing in my lower back and aching feet, I looked around me at one point during the march and considered, "what if at least half of us had listened to the doubting voice I sometimes hear in my own head, and remained silent, remained absent?" And, I thought about the rallies and marches that have changed the course of humankind all over this world: the Civil Rights Movement of the 60s, an end to apartheid in South Africa, the end of British rule in India, the Abolition Movement, the Suffrage Movement.... What if the millions of people who spoke out, acted up in the countless events surrounding these movements simply hadn't shown up? And I knew right then: I will remain silent no longer. I will remain still no longer. I will no longer mutely support the abuses of my global brothers and sisters to merely line the pockets of a few. It is only US that will change the U.S. We are the only ones who can. We are the only ones who will: Blessed be the PeaceMakers, for they shall be called the Children of God. So hear my voice, watch my hands and feet: I want to share a few reasons why I will not support a war against Iraq. (Title items in bold are slogans from the rally and march.) 1. Real Eyes Realize Real Lies: Let's be honest: the true reason for waging an act of violence and aggression against Iraq is not because we fear what they may possibly do in the future: if this is the case, we should let the UN inspectors do their job and seek a peace-full resolution for the transgressions the U.S. has already committed in that region of the world. The true reason for waging a war against Iraq is for the United States to secure control over the majority of the world's oil reserves. 2. Who Will Die? Who Will Profit?: The U.S. citizens who will be walking under the beating Arabian sun, getting sand in their shoes and up their noses, and pointing weapons toward the "enemy" will not be Jenna or Barb Bush or any of the children or grandchildren of the members of congress who support this war. Instead, it will be the sons and daughters of low-income families who cannot afford to send their children to college, and whose only option out of the cycle of poverty is to enter the military. (A cycle, by the way, perpetuated by the ruling classes and the eternal silence of the masses.) In short, the majority of those who will be going to fight and die in a Euro-American, upper-class oilman's war will be African-American, lower-class soldiers. 3. No Blood For Oil: When this war is over, the gas I pump into my tank and pay $1.39 per gallon will be a mix of high octane and human blood: the blood of my fellow US citizens who were seeking a way to a better life and the blood of innocent Iraqi women and children who have done nothing to me. I would rather walk, ride a bike, ride the bus, or simply stay at home than to have to "buy" into such a lifestyle. 4. Money For Jobs, Not War: Finally, the conservative estimate of the cost of this war is $200,000,000,000... Two Hundred Billion Dollars! Instead of spending this money to advance the values of greed and envy of a few, we should be putting this money toward education, housing, healthcare, the creation of jobs, childcare, the elderly, and to advance the basic needs of a majority of our population who have been marginalized, ignored, and left to fend for themselves under the repression of a so-called "free-enterprise" system. So, what can WE do?? Well, if you feel that a peace-full solution should be found, that a war against Iraq is immoral and unwarranted, here are some action items: 1. Vote No To War: Go to www.votenowar.org. In the middle of the page, click where it says "I Vote No To War". Fill out as much information as you wish, and submit your vote. The tally will be released to the world during the Peace Congress to be held in Washington over the 2003 Martin Luther King Weekend Celebration. 2. Buy Consciously: here is a list of U.S. oil companies that do NOT import Middle Eastern oil. The original email with this info was sent with the intention of giving people the option of not supporting Arabian oil profiteers. However, I use this list here to show companies, I am guessing, have no direct interest in a war against Iraq: Citgo Sunoco Conoco Sinclair BP/Philips Hess All the big gas guys (Texaco, Exxon, Shell, Amoco) DO buy their oil from the Middle East, and thereby stand to profit from other's deaths. 3. Drop Bush Not Bombs: VOTE! VOTE! VOTE! Whether it's this coming Tuesday, Nov. 5th, or in 2 years when we will elect a new President, learn about the candidates and make your voice heard in the booth. 4. Pass It On: As you are willing, forward this message to everyone you know... spread the word, spread the word, spread the word!! Please remember: You and I are writing the history of tomorrow! No matter how small or ineffective we may feel at times, we are SO VERY IMPORTANT to changing our world!! Thank you for your time and being present in my life!! In God's Love and Peace, Heather, the marginal woman |
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01 Nov 02 - 05:57 PM (#816372) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Ebbie An estimated 350 people in Juneau, Alaska, gathered and marched; there was precious little promotion beforehand. This is in a community of 30,000 so little more than 1% showed up. But hey, it's a start. |
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01 Nov 02 - 06:20 PM (#816384) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Alfred Krupp I've a novel approach to this - say next day all those in favour of an aggresive war against Saddam are to go about their normal business, no protest, no infantile demonstrations, just let the Oil Corporations and the White House and Congress slaves get on with it. Gee, thats fine, 99.8% conformity, and without any coordination or publicity. I can say that the People of the World back this attempt to enforce American Standards of Justice and Legality. Hey will somebody take out those flying pigs ! Alf Krupp - The Ruhr. |
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01 Nov 02 - 07:16 PM (#816421) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert First of al, my friend, the "war tent" is down the street. Unless you were speaking tongue-in-cheek if one can just belive the polls that have been taken showing the percentage of folks who are against the war, if all these folks were to strike their employers and a couple well chosen corporations, Bush's plans would go right down the drain. When one considers how long it took to mobilize resistence against the Vietnam War, what we are seeing is an absolute ground swell. Heather: Good for you. I know it was tough on the legs. My 17 years old son was sore for a couple days afterwards.But keep the faith and kep posting to this thread as youmlearn of other demonstartions. The media is ignoring the heck out of us so we can't assume that everyone knows what's coming up. Peace Bobert |
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01 Nov 02 - 07:22 PM (#816425) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing Just to clarify: Heather did not post the above. I received it from another Mudcatter who had received it directly from Heather, who is a friend of theirs. Thanks. |
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01 Nov 02 - 07:59 PM (#816458) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Like I should have said: Friend of Heather, good for you and keep the faith. Did I get it right this time, kat? If not you just rewrite it and sign my name to it. I trust you. Bobert |
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11 Feb 03 - 08:06 PM (#888108) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Well, this is really cool. What do Oak Park, Michiga,, Shaker Heights, Ohio, Baltimore, Maryland, Chicaog, Illinois and Des Moines, Iowa have in common? Give up? Well, they, and another 70 cities and towns have passed anti-war resolutions telling the BUsh administration, "Not in our name". And while were at it. The Maine Sate Sebate passed a similar resolution as did the Hawii House of Representatives. And resolutions are cropping up in town councils all over America! This is so heartening in a time when there is so much press given to the drum beaters. Good on these 70 cities and townships and looking forward to that number growing as Americans slowly figure out that Bush is nothing but a warmonger. Pure and simple. He has done *zero* to promote peace. Zero! Peace Bobert |
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11 Feb 03 - 10:01 PM (#888180) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: JennyO Excellent, Bobert. It's all happening, isn't it. I wonder if anything like that is happening in Oz? There certainly is a lot of anti-war sentiment here! Jenny |
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28 Feb 03 - 10:42 PM (#900840) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert For those Catfolk who are against the US invasion of Iraq, there will be a massive demonstration in D.C on March 15th. Anyone coming to D.C. and needing lodging, contack me thru a PM. Bobert |
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01 Mar 03 - 11:01 AM (#901077) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Usefulidiot I think we should drag the corrupt administration out into the streets on March i5th and hang them right then and there. No trial no report to file. Screw the Constitution. We will teach them how evil it is to use voilence to promote peace. Usefull Idiot |
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01 Mar 03 - 11:16 AM (#901091) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: *daylia* Here's some information about the peace rallies planned for International Women's Day (March 8) in Washington DC and elsewhere. These are non-violent protests however, so I guess Usefull Idiot will have to put plans for public lynching on hold for that day at least! daylia |
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01 Mar 03 - 11:55 AM (#901115) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: *daylia* The link above tested fine when I made it, but it's pulling an 'error' page now (??). So try this one instead. Sorry about that .... daylia |
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01 Mar 03 - 12:52 PM (#901150) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: *daylia* And for all you Canucks concerned about peace and human rights, here's the rather extensive (!!) schedule of Canadian peace rallies, vigils, concerts and lectures for March 2003, furnished by the Canadian Peace Alliance. If anyone decides to attend a Toronto event, please PM me if you'd like to meet up. Thanks - daylia |
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01 Mar 03 - 11:28 PM (#901448) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Oldguy Torture Methods in Iraq * Medical experimentation * Beatings * Crucifixion * Hammering nails into the fingers and hands * Amputating the penis or breasts with an electric carving knife * Spraying insecticides into a victim's eyes * Branding with a hot iron * Committing rape while the victim's spouse is forced to watch * Pouring boiling water into a rectum * Nailing the tongue to a wooden board * Extracting teeth with pliers * Using bees and scorpions to sting naked children in front of their parents Old Guy |
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02 Mar 03 - 02:55 AM (#901537) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: DougR Old Guy: so what's your point? DougR |
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02 Mar 03 - 09:36 PM (#902073) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,OldGuy I was in a hurry so I pasted these here as a reminder to the people trying to foul up the goverment's actions to prevent the torture suffered by the citizens of Iraq. Looks like it killed the thread because the anti-wat protestors don't want to face these facts. Old Guy |
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02 Mar 03 - 09:45 PM (#902082) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Old Guy: Hey, while you do provide some level of *entertainment* with your postings, I'd just like to point out that GUEST, A**hole, may be giving up his handle incase yopu're lookin' for a new one. Awww, jus' funnin'. But speakin' of your list above, have you spent any time researching the criminal justice system in Texas? Makes Irak seem like the *land of paradise*. Hey, Doug: Didn't mean to leave you out of this one. Waht are you doing messing with OG? He's like on your team? I don't get it! Bobert |
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04 Mar 03 - 10:32 PM (#903687) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Oldguy I heard on the tube tonight about a peacemonger who went to Iraq and returned real soon as a warmonager. It seems they found out about a woman who had her son crucified in front of her. Do they have something worse in Texas? Maybe they just send them across the border. Old Guy |
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04 Mar 03 - 10:38 PM (#903692) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: TIA I'm being a bit of a jerk to put his in two threads, but after I posted in the first one, I spotted this thread where it is more appropriate. If the powers that be want to wax it from the other thread, please do so with my blessing. Thanks. Just got this from my mother. Use it if you wish. Ignore it if you wish. "Bruce Andrews, retired professor of political science sent Dan and me these e-mail addresses with a request to e-mail these delegations at the UN requesting that they do everything they can to stop the war. A political scientist friend of his sent Bruce the addresses with this note: "I just spoke with France's UN office. The are BEGGING us to flood their offices and the other UN offices with emails to STOP the WAR. France needs to know that many Americans are with them on this. Please forward this to everyone you can. The UN email addresses are listed below for the Security Council." france-presse@un.int, rusun@un.int, chinamission_un@fmprc.gov.cn, uk@un.int, bulgaria@un.int, info@cameroonmission.org, guinea@un.int, mexico@un.int, syria@un.int; chile@un.int, contact@germany-un.org spain@spainun.org Thanks for considering this, Mom" |
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05 Mar 03 - 01:08 PM (#904080) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Oldguy Attention peacenicks and French sympathizers. You have a lot of brainwashing to do over there: ABIDJAN, Ivory Coast Feb. 1 — Tens of thousands of people marched through Ivory Coast's main city Saturday calling for the death of the French president, in the biggest demonstration yet against the West African nation's French-brokered peace accord. "Chirac is dead! Ivory Coast is free!" marchers chanted, referring to French President Jacques Chirac. One protester dragged an iron tub filled with palm leaves that he said represented "all the baggage the French will take as they leave Ivory Coast." Some greeted a carload of Westerners with pro-American slogans. Others carried American flags and signs saying: "Please help us, Bush" and "France Bye Bye, In U.S.A. We Trust." Old Guy |
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05 Mar 03 - 01:23 PM (#904096) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: *daylia* Old Guy, I don't think that brainwashing is a requirement for promoting peace. All that's required is compassion, courage and common sense. daylia |
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05 Mar 03 - 01:33 PM (#904104) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Oldguy Try showing some compassion for the citizens of Iraq: "Men belonging to Feda'iyye Saddam came to the house in al-Karrada district and found his wife, children and his mother. Um Haydar was taken to the street and two men held her by the arms and a third pulled her head from behind and beheaded her in front of the residents. The beheading was also witnessed by members of the Ba'ath Party in the area. The security men took the body and the head in a plastic bag, and took away the children and the mother-in-law. " Old Guy |
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05 Mar 03 - 01:36 PM (#904107) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing Compassion for the Iraqi people will involve NOT going to war and killing millions of them with indiscriminate bombs. You do not create peace with violence. This certainly has drifted from the original intent of this thread! |
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05 Mar 03 - 02:10 PM (#904130) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Oldguy There you go with the brainwashing again: "thousands of bombs being dropped on innocent people" and "Millions of innocent people being killed" Do you sit and rock back and forth like the students in a madrassa while chanting this? Where do the numbers come from? what types of bombs and how will they be targeted? If you take the time to research this you will see that it is propaganda. Old Guy |
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05 Mar 03 - 02:30 PM (#904140) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Don Firth The Defense Department has determined that 250,000 Iraqi civilian deaths is an acceptable figure. Tell me all about compassion. Don Firth |
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05 Mar 03 - 02:43 PM (#904148) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Oldguy katlaughing: "You do not create peace with violence." Ever heard of the American Revoultionary War? Old Guy |
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05 Mar 03 - 02:51 PM (#904154) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Rustic Rebel Sorry folks- I don't quite know where to put this so I'm drifting a moment*** Remember the thread where I think it was Thomas the Rhymer had started about sending rice to the white house? Well it seems that that is positively not the thing to do to promote peace. Yesterday it came out that a peace activist was put on the terrorist alert list for sending rice to the office of Jack Straw. It closed down his office for threee hours and sent the police to the home of the sender. They said it was lucky for him that he had sent a 'nice card' with the package, otherwise the terrorist police would have been knocking on his door. They also said many people are now on the terror alert list for sending rice! Don't send rice!!! Please resume*** |
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05 Mar 03 - 04:09 PM (#904195) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: TIA Old Guy: The answers to some of your questions are here Summary: the DoD intends to drop 10 times the number of bombs that were dropped in 1991. But, Defense Intelligence Agency says that with improved guidance, fewer civilians will be killed. Now, please drop the silly madrasa metaphor. By repeating it, you appear to be doing precisely the rocking and chanting that you accuse others of. |
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05 Mar 03 - 04:32 PM (#904208) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing Rustic Rebel, this is a good place to have posted that. Thank you, very much! My sisters had just heard about the rice thing and their church group was planning to do so. TIA, thanks for the link. Don Firth, thanks for your comment. OG - cite your claims, esp. the ones which are supposedly direct. Also, the American Revolution did not bring peace, no war has ever brought peace. It was the beginning of "official" government conflicts, unrest and further wars throughout our country from then on. There has also been such throughout the world because of the worn-out patriarchal, Picean age beliefs in wiedling the bigger club instead of using more civilised means of getting to know one's supposed enemies and learning to get along in a more humane way. kat |
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05 Mar 03 - 05:09 PM (#904235) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing I was pleased to read at www.drudge.com that tens of thousands of students throughout the US and other countries skipped classes, yesterday, in a "Books not bombs" protest against going to war with Iraq. |
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06 Mar 03 - 02:09 AM (#904550) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: DougR Don: I have not seen that estimate of civilian casualties by the Defense Department before. Would you be good enough to provide a link to confirm the 250,000 figure? I'd appreciate it. DougR |
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06 Mar 03 - 08:06 AM (#904681) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bagpuss The reason Jackie Straw got freaked out by the rice? He was handed the envelope and said "What's this?". The reply was "It's got rice in"..... Bagpuss |
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06 Mar 03 - 08:10 AM (#904684) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: TIA DougR: Yesterday's paper quoted an anonymous DoD spokesperson as estimating less than 3,000 Iraqi civilian casualties, but picking a number a-priori is really just a crap shoot - could be way lower, could be way higher. We will only know once the fun begins. Then we can all keep track by following the Iraq Body Count ticker which is here |
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06 Mar 03 - 08:36 AM (#904696) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: ard mhacha The schoolkids of Ireland and Britain were on all of the TV News broadcasts, protesting against the coming slaughter. Ard Mhacha. |
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06 Mar 03 - 09:19 AM (#904716) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST Smoke pot an drink beer what else is there beer makes me happy and pot used to make me mellow add the two together and what do you get Happy stoners sleeping= no fighting. |
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06 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM (#904749) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Don't forget folks. March 15th. D.C.... At the grounds of the Washington Monuement. Anyone coming and needing a place to crash, PM me. OG: I believe tha while you have a perfect right to post anywhere you like, that if you'll reread the name of this thread you may discover that you are not bringing any level of positive contribution to the intent of the thread. There are plenty of other threads around for your views. This thread was originated with the purpose of sharing information about "actions to *promote* peace". Dropping bombs, I think most of us would agree, is is not a peacefull means of solving conflict. You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb the world to peace. Don't forget, folks, March 15th. Peace Bobert |
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06 Mar 03 - 11:15 AM (#904813) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Rustic Rebel You know I got to thinking this morning that maybe I jumped too fast in saying don't send rice. Perhaps now is the time to send more? I was never really for the idea and I probably still won't but at least it means peace activists are getting noticed. Getting put on the terror list reminds me of the 'red list' in the fifties.(? about year) It is worth considering anyway. Maybe publicizing the action was a ploy to deter protesters of this type. Our small group of protesters last Sat. made our front page paper yesterday! This is a good thing. Hopefully it will bring more out this weekend. It was our first rally in our small town. We had police sit and watch us for half an hour then they figured we were alright. They said we couldn't have any signs that said 'honk for peace' or do anything to divert traffic. We have a no lottering law in town so we were leary at first, but now we have a civil liberties rep. coming to challange this law. Finally! Peace. (The world can only unite by loving, not by hating)Rustic |
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06 Mar 03 - 11:33 AM (#904821) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: *daylia* Rustic, the idea of being put on a gov't terrorist list for peacefully expressing anti-war sentiments is chilling and disgusting. Big Brother REALLY IS here. I only wish the very best for all of you south of the border - seems like you're sure going to need it. Thanks for posting this story - it's a wake-up call for everyone IMO. daylia |
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06 Mar 03 - 12:41 PM (#904881) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: JennyO The schoolkids marched here in Sydney, too. Of course we got the usual complaints that they were being used by communist organisations, and that they would have had a better understanding of the situation by spending the day at school....yeah, right! I'll be marching on Saturday in the International Women's Day march - Women against the War. Jenny |
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06 Mar 03 - 01:53 PM (#904957) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Rustic Rebel In my post above I talked about the 'red list' I think I was wrong. I was just cruising a site that talked about 'black listing' artists that speak out about the war. So was it called a black list? Yes I think so. I was directed to this site via my peace action group. It was an article about CIA people taking refuge in Sweden and speaking out against the Bush admin. Sweden has opened it's doors to 28 CIA people, who couldn't handle being silenced anymore. Here is a good site; truth out One more thing I read yesterday was about Harry Belefonte speaking out about Bush. He said the Bush admin. is possessed by evil! Watch out Harry- you'll be 'black-listed' as well! Peace. Rustic (women march on, on March 8th!) |
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06 Mar 03 - 02:02 PM (#904965) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: *daylia* I'll be marching with you, Jenny and Rustic, in spirit if not in body. And Rustic, I really do hope you were mistaken about the Rice for Peace thing! |
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06 Mar 03 - 02:09 PM (#904972) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Rustic Rebel No I wasn't mistaken It happened. I just meant that I might have been mistaken for saying don't send it. Maybe people should continue the practice. I don't know. The site I posted above should be checked out. I was just reading more about police injustice to protesters. Also an interesting article about a young man getting thrown out of a mall for wearing a 'peace on earth' t-shirt! They tried to tell him to take it off and he refused. Some of this is really hard to swallow but I have already seen police trying to deter people from rallies. A couple weeks ago they said we had to move because we had no permit. Well it turned out we didn't need a permit and had as much right on the sidewalk as any ped. so it was a personal thing with this officer. (Now he knows). Peace. Rustic |
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06 Mar 03 - 02:13 PM (#904975) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Well, RR, you weren't too far off with your "Red List" as this was a list of folks who were *thought* to have communist leanings and Communists = reds in a lot of folks minds. There are even historical references to back up the "reds" in the Rissian Revolution (reds v. whites) and lets not forget Chairman Mao's "Red Book". As fir demonstartions, yesterday was a day on demonstrations by students who walked out of classes all over the world in a *strike* against the war. These demonstartions occured in over 300 colleges and universities in the US as well as hundreds of public schools. Anyone wishing to read more about the deatils of the demonstrations can go to: www.washingtonpost.com There are some other interesting articles in today's Post. One about China now alligning itself with Russia, France and Germany. There is also an *Analysis" which is pretty darned scarey in that the military leaders of the US, while having major reservations about the wisdom of attacking Iraq, are now just tired of all the jokeying and would just rather get it started now rather than wait. As for the rice? Maybe we could just mail them a *rock* which would make a statement about the intellegence, or lack thereof, of Bush's foreign policy. Dumb as a box of rocks! Peace Bobert |
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06 Mar 03 - 03:30 PM (#905028) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing Rustic, thanks so much for the truthout link! Look what I found there: HOPE! From the beginning of an article on Powell telling the shrub he will lose: Tuesday 4 March 2003 Senior aides to President George W. Bush say he faces a humiliating defeat before the United Nations Security Council next week. And signs emerged today that the U.S. may withdraw the resolution from security council consideration. Secretary of State Colin Powell, fresh from his latest round of meetings with representatives of countries on the Security Council, delivered the bad news to Bush on Monday. "You will lose, Mr. President," Powell told Bush. "You will lose badly and the United States will be humiliated on the world stage." Powell told Bush he has only four of the nine votes needed for approval of a second resolution. As a result, some White House advisors are now urging the President to back off his tough stance on war with Iraq and give UN weapons inspectors more time. "We have no other choice," admits one. |
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06 Mar 03 - 04:35 PM (#905068) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Don Firth Doug, unfortunately I can't recall the name of the person who made the statement, but it was on a radio talk show and the person was from the Brookings Institute (an admittedly conservative "think tank"). The liberal interviewer asked him about potential Iraqi civilian casualties, and after hedging a bit, he said that the maximum acceptable number of Iraqi civilian casualties the Pentagon expected was in the vicinity of 250,000. He used the word "acceptable." The reporter, (as I said, a liberal) had a hissy-fit and said, "You mean to say that killing a quarter of a million Iraqi civilians is an acceptable cost for liberating oppressed Iraqi citizens?" "No," was the answer, "I said two-hundred and fifty thousand! And that, we estimate, would be the maximum number of civilian casualties." The discussion had droned on for quite a while, and since I was on overload from having heard several discussions of this type the same day, I was hardly paying attention. But what suddenly caught my notice was the apparent arithmetic disagreement over the meanings of "quarter of a million" and "two-hundred and fifty thousand." And then, the words "acceptable civilian casualties." I kinda had a hissy-fit of my own, since the main thrust of the discussion was supposed to be the humanitarian mission of freeing the Iraqi people from a tyrannical regime. Sorry I don't have more information or a link to post. I did look up the Brookings Institute and came up with the following: In regard to casualties, the experience of trying to forecast Desert Storm is chastening for those who believe that precise predictions are possible, but some general parameters can still be established. In particular, the United States could plausibly lose anywhere from about 100 soldiers, should the Iraqi military crumble or overthrow Saddam once American forces are perched on their border, to as many as 5,000 troops if the Republican Guard fights as hard and as effectively as its size and weaponry would plausibly allow within the urban settings of Baghdad and other Iraqi cities. In other words, while such a war would not become a quagmire under even the worst of circumstances, it could be rather bloody. Moreover, Iraqi civilian casualties could be ten times as great as U.S. losses, generating strong opposition from international public opinion, particularly in the Arab street. This is yet one more reason to make any such war quick and decisive through the use of overwhelming force.The whole article HERE. I ran a fairly exhaustive search with google, putting in a whole variety of terms, but other than obviously slanted websites both left and right, I couldn't find anything that I would consider reliable. Obviously, precise predictions are not possible, but it is revealing to know what is regarded as "acceptable." Don Firth |
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07 Mar 03 - 11:33 AM (#905343) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: *daylia* Thanks for the info everyone. All the best to everyone marching tomorrow for International Women's Day, especially those in the US. Here's a funny (?) message re your friendly neighbourhood Homeland Security. Brrrrrrrrrr - browse through if you don't mind getting a little chilly! daylia |
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07 Mar 03 - 02:16 PM (#905431) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,Oldguy Tia: "Now, please drop the silly madrasa metaphor. By repeating it, you appear to be doing precisely the rocking and chanting that you accuse others of." I will stick with my metaphor as long as the peaceniks keep ignoring that facts. Did you hear on the news that the military is laying out the plans of where to drop what size and type of bomb? 90% will actually be guided munitions, not bombs. They are using a computer simulation to pick the correct size and type of bomb to drop on each military target so as not to destroy the civilian population. The bombs have an accuracy now if one meter (39"+-) This hardly sounds like a chant to me. It sounds like good sense and compassion. Have you heard the Former Iraqis on TV today saying that the US should liberate Iraq and explaining the torture that goes on there? It sounds like something worth watching and thinking about but the peaceniks reflexively come back with "thousands of bombs being dropped on innocent people". You flip on the TV and you see people marching and want to be part of the crowd that goes against the leaders of the government because it seems cool so you want to be part of the crowd. I have not heard anybody acknowledge the American revolutionary war. Perhaps the peaceniks don't want to admit that it happened, what happened and what the results were. Old Guy |
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07 Mar 03 - 02:27 PM (#905437) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Rustic Rebel Talk about humanitarian, or should I say un-humanitarian, half a million children under the age of five have now died in Iraq, in the past ten years due to sanctions. Sanctions are being called "the silent war against Iraqi children" Countries that used to trade with Iraq are also suffering. Jordan's Prime Minister had this to say about sanctions-"The sanctions impassed on Iraq have led to great human catastrophe of unpredictable destructive impact in the short and long terms. We call for lifting the embargo on Iraq." UN weapons inspector Richard Butler had this to say- " sanctions as now applied to Iraq have been utterly counterproductive for the disarmament purpose." The problem with sanctions is money and goods that get into the country are going to the elite and harming the poor. The basic needs of the civilian population are not being met. The 1949 Geneva Convention prohibits the starvation of civilian populations and the destruction of what is indispensable for their survival. Can you all tell I've been doing my homework on sanctions? I find them deplorable. For US to say the Iraqi people tourture their own, well perhaps they are, but we as a world of people allowing sanctions to continue, are no better for creating a destruction of an entire country of human beings. As I step down from my soapbox, Rustic |
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07 Mar 03 - 03:49 PM (#905449) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: *daylia* From the mouths of babes (just for you, Old Guy!)... "El Centro de la Raza, Seattle, WA This is a group poem, written by elementary school students at El Centro de la Raza's after school poetry class in Seattle. We are Jose Luis (age 8); Jaime (9); Antonio (7); Kristina (10); Paco (7); Rebecca (10). Our teacher is Anna Balint Imagining How It's Going To Be smoke black smoke cannot see nothing barely nothing crying burning wood smoke planes and more planes soldiers come in planes to attack soldiers with guns we're gonna fight fight to stop the war not sit around and let people die we gotta fight so people don't die bombs bombs dropping down on people bombs ruining the life of people missiles and more missiles sad screaming angry scared running running for shelter buildings falling climbing over rubble we're gonna fight fight to stop the war not sit around and let people die we gotta fight so people don't die dogs and cats dead the birds flown away burned leaves black grass grass on fire tanks tanks are coming we're gonna fight fight to stop the war not sit around and let people die we gotta fight so people don't die Found it at this site. Lots more poetry there too! daylia |
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07 Mar 03 - 05:07 PM (#905493) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: GUEST,dennis in US I'll have to say that I think our country is behaving completely irresponsibly; that to act without U.N. approval in a situation that is not about self defense totally undermines the US and ulitimately, UN credibility. If anyone is interested, here is a link to an anti-war song. http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/549/dennis_caraher.html |
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07 Mar 03 - 05:21 PM (#905504) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: DougR Rustic Rebel: who do you blame for the sanctions in Iraq? Let me guess! The US of A, right! Wrong! Try Saddam. He could have had the sanctions lifted at anytime if he had done what he agreed to do at the ceasefire in 1991! Don: thanks for checking on that 250,000 figure. I have searched too, and I cannot find such an estimate anywhere. I can't conceive the figure will be that high. DougR |
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07 Mar 03 - 11:15 PM (#905569) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing There is an interesting article in Business Week, an interview really, of a demographer who lost her job when she "overpredicted" casualties for the last Bush war. She explains how they figure the numbers, what happened to her data and how she got her job back. |
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07 Mar 03 - 11:21 PM (#905570) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing DougR, here's a report, Collateral Damage: the health and environmental costs of war on Iraq. Here's the most relevant paragraph: Researched and written by health professionals, this evidence-based report examines the likely impact of a new war on Iraq from a public health perspective. Credible estimates of the total possible deaths on all sides during the conflict and the following three months range from 48,000 to over 260,000. Civil war within Iraq could add another 20,000 deaths. Additional later deaths from post-war adverse health effects could reach 200,000. If nuclear weapons were used the death toll could reach 3,900,000. In all scenarios the majority of casualties will be civilians. There is much more to it than that. I hope you will give it a read. kat |
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07 Mar 03 - 11:49 PM (#905587) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert kat: Dougie don't care if we gotta kill every last Iraqi so they can be liberated. Yeah, liberated from... ahhh, life! Come on, Dougie, this is youn ol' buddy Bobert here. Not some bum from the corner! But me, brother. Do you really believe any of this carp that you write? Like sanctions? Yeah, they have been a real picnic to the Iraqi people! No, they haven't. The Iraqi people have suffered greatly from the sanctions. But if Bush gets up and pumps out his lieing chest and says otherwise, you are gonna believe, ahhhh, this guy? Really? This guy? Come on! You are smarter than this, my friend. Can't you see that Bush is playing a pair of 2's? No? Well, I don't beleive you, so there! You are smarter than that! Come out from behind that big ol' *partiasn* shield and join the real world which, I might add, thinks that you guy has a serious credibility situation... But I still love ya', even if you have a head of granite... Bobert |
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08 Mar 03 - 03:44 PM (#905615) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: DougR kat: I read the article. It was about what I would expect from an organization whose soul purpose for existance is based on the prevention of war, regardless of the legitimacy of the war effort. It is a well written piece of propaganda in my opinion. You will note that their position paper is not confined to the health aspects but also contains several political jibes. If they wanted the paper to be taken seriously, they would have confined the report to health. That, supposedly, is their expertise. Much is predicated in the report on the use of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. Since Iraq has none of these, the meat of the whole report is suspect I believe. Saddam did swear that they had none, right? Bobert: Rave on. DougR |
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08 Mar 03 - 03:58 PM (#905624) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: saulgoldie Old Guy, I haven't talked with a single opponent to War in Iraq who thinks that Saddam Hussein is anything higher than vile swine (meaning of course, no disrespect to our porcine brethren and sistren). What is being challenged is the rightness and effectiveness of war at this time and under these circumstances, and also whether this is something that we should legitimately intevene into. Far-reaching concerns about national sovereignty are necessarily relevant, as are possible long-term ramifications. Yes, the pain and suffering of his victims is horrible to conceive. But it is not the whole argument. And there are other such experiences in other populations in the world which we are completely ignoring, too. (See: getting the whole story/FCC media consolidation.) Let us not forget that there are a whole string of interventions with the USA name on them going back for most of my life, anyway, that included so-called "good guys" doing similar things to decent folks with *our* funding, training, and support, and often our encouragement. So if we are talking moral high ground, let's at least keep things honest, eh? |
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12 Mar 03 - 12:36 AM (#907943) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Rustic Rebel DougR- No I don't blame the US alone for sanctions.The United Nations Security Council are the ones who apply sanctions. They are France, Germany, Guinea, Mexico, Pakistan, Russia, Spain. Syrian Arab Republic, UK, US, Angola, Bulgaria, Cameroon, China and Chile. The thing about sanctions is maybe Hussein is at fault for them but the people of the country are paying for it. Iraq being a sovereign nation rejected the "food-for-oil" resolution in 1991 because they felt it wasn't compatable with their sovereignty. By putting together revenues for humanitarian purposes and those intended for compensation payments and weapons inspections, the humanitarian crisis was politicised. Now talks about 'smart sanctions' are going on, that put the pressure on regimes and not the people. Smart sanctions involve freezing financial assets and blocking financial transactions of the political elite. That seems to be the better route to effect Hussein rather than starving a nation of people don't you think? The 'food-for-oil' program seems to be a tricky way to still get oil and money from them while killing them off in a slow way. Peace. Rustic |
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12 Mar 03 - 12:46 AM (#907948) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: DougR I would just like to know one thing from all of you who believe that the projected war with Iraq is all about oil. If, after it is all over and the country stabilized, the U. S. and Great Britain DO NOT keep the oil fields for their own, will you admit that you were wrong? If you are right, I, for one, will shout to whoever will listen that you were right. DougR |
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12 Mar 03 - 01:03 AM (#907960) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Rustic Rebel Absolutely Doug, although I'm still holding out on hope that I won't have to prove anything! Peace. Rustic (chanting NO-WAR!) |
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14 Mar 03 - 07:34 PM (#910388) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Okay, folks! Tomorrow may be the last opportunity to tell the Bush/Cheney/Rice/Rumsfeld regime where to stick their war before that change the course of the US forever! The demonstration in Washington, D.C. will begin at noon east of the Washington Monuement and accross from the White House. As per usual, Bush won't be around. (Word on the street is that he has kept the First Lady locked up with rental movies and she knows nothing about his plans?... Boy, is he ever gonna get it when she finds out. "You did *what*?!?!?!!...) Anyway, my son, Ben is taking the second part of his GED tomorrow so he's gonna miss this one, but heck, the kid has made his oold man proud in that he has been to all the others... Yo Dougie: C-Span is gonna cover the event so if I see 'em pointin' a camera at me, I'll flip my "Whose God Are You Hearing, Mr. Bush" sign around which reads, "Dougie is a Knucklehead!" Whaddaythink? Bobert |
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14 Mar 03 - 10:23 PM (#910466) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Rustic Rebel We are holding a rally tommorrow also. And a candlelight vigil will take place Sunday around the world. Have a good time Bobert. My signs for tommorrow; We don't control the world and drop sanctions not bombs. I liked- One nation under Bush, with liberty and justice for oil, but it's too damn long! Peace to all and hope for our voices to be heard this week-end! Rustic |
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14 Mar 03 - 11:35 PM (#910487) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: katlaughing Go Rustic and Bobert!! Thanks!! |
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15 Mar 03 - 08:35 PM (#910993) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Bobert Man oh man! Big day in D.C.! Reminded me of the Moritoruium demonstration during the Vietmen War, just more creative. I have no idea how many folks were in attendence but over 200,000 is a safe and probably very conservative figure. Them police presence was on the "overkill" side with the 2 miles march route lined on both sides wityh police every four feet or so. Way too many. Plus, the police had two helicopters flying in a tight circle overhead which was distracting. But what I came away with was my continued amazement of the "kids", aged 18 to 20 something. These kids are great. The are super creative and motivated. And they can play some mean drums. There must have been over a hundred different drum groups with their African drums bringing so much to the event. Made me forget how bad my feet hurt. Lots of folks took picture of my sign which read "Whose God are you hearing, Mr. Bush & Co?" which has now survived three major demonstrations in the last few months. All and all, though I can barely walk tonight, I'm content that I did what the Holy Spirit asked of me. Hopefully, Mr. Bush will hear the voice of the Holy Spirit, 'cause right now he is a lost soul. Peace... Bobert |
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16 Mar 03 - 11:01 AM (#911236) Subject: RE: BS: Actions to promote peace From: Rustic Rebel Good for you Bobert! Glad to hear you went for it and the march. Wasn't it just a gorgous day out there yesterday! It was here. About 50 degees F. and sun shine. Ours was once again a small group of people. I'm guessing a little less than 50% of passing cars were for us and/or peace. I can definitely say we are a community divided on the issue. I was called a communist and didn't deserve to be living in this country. I was called wicked because I couldn't go for the fact that the will of god was to destroy a nation of people (some people!) And dig this- there was a group of young men, around 16 yr olds that came out and stood across the hwy. from us, protesting our protest. They chanted bomb Saddam. We had one encounter with the police. He drove up to us on the sidewalk and asked us if we were doing anything illegal! Ha! Of course our answer was no! But we weren't anyway. We made sure all was right. No parking or standing in private property was their main concern. So all in all another interesting day and I met a few more new friends. Peace. Rustic |