|
24 Sep 02 - 07:14 AM (#790163) Subject: 'Obit America' - Oart 2. From: McGrath of Harlow This thread is now 125 posts long, and shows no signs of petering out. That's a silly length for a thread, and impossible to load for many people, so here is part 2. |
|
24 Sep 02 - 07:17 AM (#790166) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: McGrath of Harlow |
|
24 Sep 02 - 10:00 AM (#790240) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Amos Oh, fie. A |
|
24 Sep 02 - 10:18 AM (#790258) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Little Hawk Donuel - Congratulations on that post. That is true American patriotism of which to be proud. Kat - I've heard that it is a complex and rather daunting procedure (for many) registering to vote in the USA, and that that in itself serves to discourage a great many people from doing so, specially the poor, the immigrants, and so on. Is that right? In Canada, it's ridiculously easy. The government sends a form to every elligible voter a few weeks before an election, informing them that they ARE elligible, and advising them as to where their local polling station is, and exactly when they can go there and vote. It also provides alternate times to vote in advance of the polls, in case you are unable to get there on election day. All you have to do is take this form with you, show up, and vote...and they keep the form and cross your name off the list...and that's it. It works, it's simple, and it doesn't force anyone to vote if they don't want to. We normally have a higher voting turnout in Canada than is the case in the USA...but it's been declining somewhat lately. Why? People have discovered through bitter experience that ALL the parties lie to them, ALL the parties are run from behind the scenes by the same elitist power groups (who have the money), and their vote is essentially almost meaningless. The only parties that are an exception to the above are parties so small that they have no chance of being elected in the first place, so you can vote for them merely to register a protest against the system...a protest which will be ignored. Sound familiar? It is big money that is destroying democracy from within, not suicide bombers from impoverished countries outside it (and the people in those countries mostly long for democracy). It's big money that impoverishes those countries too, which is why the suicide bombers struck at a visible symbol of...Big Money...when they hit the WTC. - LH |
|
24 Sep 02 - 10:49 AM (#790283) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Amos Well, LH, I dunno what you've heard from where, but that is pretty much the way it works where I live. "Big money" is a pretty sweeping phrase, though. You sure you aren't one of them Commienists my maw warned me about? A |
|
24 Sep 02 - 10:57 AM (#790288) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Bobert Donuel: See you in the streets! It would be my pleasure spending a couple days corraled with you ion the D.C. jails. Speaking of jails, you have hit upon an issue that I haven't seen discussed here and perhaps could use a thread of its own and that is the prison/industrial complex. Yes, look at the numbers and it is very much fueled by racism and fears. Well, they ought to be afraid, I'll give them that for when you mess with a dog lond enough it *will* bite. Yeah, the entire sysytem is designed for white folks and black folks who act white and say, "Yes, Master". Now, just to take that issue a step further, all we have to do is look at Texas and we get a glimmer of the kind of thinking (or non thginking) that goes on in Junior's head. Texas is the "Execution" state. Most of those who are executed have had confessions beaten out of them and these confessions are used in a majoirity of cases as the main evidence of guilt. Now, couple that with an inept public defender who sleeps thru the trial, a rubber stamp appeals process and the notion of "benefit of doubt" goes out the window as folks, many of whom are innocent, are strapped to a gurney, injected with chemicals that first collapse their lungs and then stop their hearts. Now, here we are listening to Junior make his closing arguments except in this case he doesn't even have the benefit of the cohersed confession. Hmmmmmmm? And this is what we're going to war over? Give me a break! Like I said earlier, Donuel. See you in the streets. Resist Bobert |
|
24 Sep 02 - 11:41 AM (#790324) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: NicoleC LH, It isn't hard at all. Yesterday I re-registered to vote over the internet. Well, not really -- I registered, they send me a pre-printed card, I sign it and mail it pack (postage paid.) End of story. Never tried that before; it was nice. I've never found registering to vote anything but absurdly simple. You can pick up forms at your post office or library (fill out and mail in), and during election season there's a "Register To Vote" booth in front of every grocery store. Or you can call or mail the local elections officials and ask them to send you one. Not good enough for you? There's a federal form that you can send to almost any state to register to vote. A month or two before the election, you get a booklet (at least here in CA, and that booklet can get quite big) explaining what's on the upcoming ballot, who's for and against, etc. It also tells you where your polling place is. To actually vote, you don't even have to take your voter ID card with you. Bring any ID with your address, show up at the proper polling station and they cross your name off the list of registered voters. Short of deliberate manipulation of the voter lists (as occassionally happens in some places), it's not any harder for poor people than it is for rich to register. Whining to the contrary is counter-productive, but we hear it a lot. If someone has to hold your hand for you and show you how to register when the big red white and blue "VOTER REGISTRATION" cards are staring you in the face at the post office while you wait in some interminable line... well, I lose sympathy. Immigrants can't vote until they pass their citizenship class and test -- I hope that includes how to register to vote! Anyone know? I like the idea of mailing out voter registration cards, but better yet I like the idea of same-day registration. |
|
24 Sep 02 - 11:57 AM (#790334) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Little Hawk Okay, guys, sounds like your voter registration system is fine, then. I was obviously misinformed by someone about that...some articles I read awhile back. I think, then, that the major thing reducing the number of people who vote is simply discouragement, and the feeling that it won't make any difference if they do. That is certainly the case in Canada. I frankly don't know what to do about it. People are maybe better off when they are still innocent and actually believe that the system works as it is supposed to, like they were told in grade school. What childlike faith. I have almost no confidence that my vote will achieve anything useful at the national level in this country, and I would have even less confidence of it in the USA. Still, I do usually vote...but with a sense of dispirited resignation to the seemingly inevitable betrayal. - LH |
|
24 Sep 02 - 12:51 PM (#790383) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: GUEST,JE via rainy Colombia Little Hawk; thank you for the eloquent postings, but there was a minor thing diggin' at me: a lot of the things you claim don't exhist in the natural world actually do, in higher mammals, anyhow. Many of the more social creatures on the earth have some form of group law, community ethics, and certainly suffer from separation anxiety when distanced from their group. There are also nearly always 'rogue' animals who prefer to be solitary, or have been cast out by the group, but there is a certain solidarity of 'us' that people don't seem to have anymore, the link to one another is gone, so what makes us care about the whole? (an' not just 'whole' as in our own families or communities, but 'whole' as the entire planet) ~JE |
|
24 Sep 02 - 01:34 PM (#790426) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: McGrath of Harlow If voting registration is so straightforward, what went wrong in Florida then? |
|
24 Sep 02 - 02:00 PM (#790451) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: GUEST The Wrong People tried to register and vote. Obviously, they had to be stopped. Guest |
|
24 Sep 02 - 02:30 PM (#790466) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: NicoleC McGrath, the issue in Florida wasn't that people didn't register or couldn't register properly. They did their part just fine. It's that voter registration lists were tampered with AFTER they registered. Some tampering is normal and necessary; they periodically purge people that are supposed to be deceased, or are convicted felons and can't vote, etc. With each cleaning there are bound to be some errors, but in the case of Florida, the number of errors was huge. A lot of folks showed up who were legitimately registered and very much legally entitled to vote that had been erroneously purged. Then the workers at the polls couldn't get the errors straightened out while they were there, so they didn't get to vote. The fact that most of those errors impacted minorities and were in heavily Democratic districts falls somewhere between "suspicious" and "deliberate tampering." When you add the reports of road blocks and the long lines outside the polling places of the poorer districts because they didn't have enough equipment or poll workers... well, Florida 2000 was an object lesson is how NOT to have an election. I'm sure other places were even worse, but they got caught in Florida ONLY because the vote was so close. |
|
24 Sep 02 - 02:31 PM (#790467) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: katlaughing While it is true we had some voter registration laws which are supposed to make it easier, I have never lived where it was made as obvious as Nicole reports. In fact, I cannot think of once when I've seen any posters about it at the local post offices, even. Theoretically, it is supposed to be easy, but it is my impression that a lot of people haven't gotten the message or are confused about it. It used to be each state had its own requirements. I know some people are still confused between those and what the new laws mandate. I also agree that many people do not vote because they feel it does not matter. THAT is a bunch of sh**, imo. IF everyone who has the right to vote actually did so, we could have a ballot revolution. |
|
24 Sep 02 - 04:30 PM (#790518) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Amos there is a certain solidarity of 'us' that people don't seem to have anymore, the link to one another is gone, so what makes us care about the whole? (an' not just 'whole' as in our own families or communities, but 'whole' as the entire planet) One of the most ferocious falsehoods being fed to aspiring young MBAs in universities in the West is that the profit motive is defined solely by numbers of dollars cleared. This "bottom line" mentality is useful to those whose minds are too wounded to actually face consequences and ramifications of their actions, or take responsibility for righter actions. But I believe the sensitivity of group well-being, species well-being and even whole-planet well-being is still alive and well in people's hearts, even when it is buried. What buries it is the belief that their environment contains danger to their individual survival. This is the kind of chronic, endemic fearfulness that makes sheep and automatons out of what might be proud, thinking humans. It is manufactured in car-lots by insurance salesmen, politicians, and others who profit from terror of a white-collar variety. I schpit! :>) That said...what the hell are you doing in Colombia? :>) A |
|
24 Sep 02 - 07:32 PM (#790620) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Amos Well, 's true that a 90%+ turnout would reallly shift the electoral vector. But it would require that those now apathetic about it take the trouble to find out what is involved. Every state I have lived in (New York, Connecticut, Florida, California) have made energetic efforts to get registration done, but it required a willingness to read and think a bt. A |
|
24 Sep 02 - 07:46 PM (#790629) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: DougR Nicole sez voter registration lists are purged periodically to eleminate deceased folks. If it hadn't been for deceased folks in Duvall County, Texas, Lyndon Baines Johnson never would have been president of these United States! It's easy to register, and to vote in the United States. I vote by mail myself. Easy as can be. I realize all states do not allow voting by mail, but I believe those that do, have found that the number of people voting has increased. DougR |
|
24 Sep 02 - 08:12 PM (#790645) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: NicoleC I tried voting by mail... it's just not the same :) I feel like a bona-fiddy priviledged citizen of US when I get up at o'dark:thirty to hit the polling place before work. (No lines then either.) People who can't bother to call their local elections office, log on to their web site, or ask a buddy how to register to vote don't garner much sympathy from me. 'Taint that hard, and if they can't spend 5 minutes registering to vote, I think it unlikely they'd bother to vote anyway. I wrestle with voter apathy, too. But then I see videos of places that are having their first election, or first election is however many years, and the folks are lined up and eager, even when sometimes it's dangerous or deadly to exercise the priviledge. No matter how bad our election system gets, at least we still have it, and the less we use it, the worse it'll get. So I do my research and get up and go anyway. One more vote for democracy. |
|
24 Sep 02 - 08:15 PM (#790647) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Amos (((((Hugs and cheers)))))), Nicole! A |
|
24 Sep 02 - 09:39 PM (#790684) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Little Hawk Well, that's the spirit, Nicole...and I'm glad you have it. My really strong and eternal objection to our present election system is: the PARTY system itself. I would like to see it done away with and vote for individuals on their own merits and ideas and record. Individuals are free of the constraints of party line, and are more likely to think independently and respond to their constituents rather than their caucus leader. They are also more likely to form a cooperative national assembly that actually tries to get something done, rather than an eternally divided one that is at war with its opposite half. I have reached the point where I truly hate political parties and party politics with all its ugly drama and corruption. And WHAT a waste of money it all is!!! But what the hell, it's like talking to polar bears about a place with no snow when you suggest this to most people...they just don't believe it's possible... :-) (despite the fact that it has been done in numerous places during past history...with good results...and is being done in hundreds of civic municipalities right now all over North America) Imagine a life without the Redemocrapublicants...and the 5 (or so) lots of bozos who regularly advance to the polls in Canada intent on driving each other into political extinction!!! God, it would be just so heavenly... Actually, this is a systematic problem in our whole society, I think: the notion that to get anything done, you've got to divide people up into 2 (or more) competing teams, set them to work attacking each other, and to the winners the spoils. I consider that an incredibly destructive and stupid philosophical basis for a society to build itself upon. It's ritual war, acted out in different arenas, according to certain rules of combat. I would much rather vote for free independent people, rather than the craven employees and yes men of a corrupt, self-serving bureaucratic machine concerned only with its own enlargment and continuance in the halls of power. - LH |
|
24 Sep 02 - 10:15 PM (#790696) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Benjamin LH, I could not agree with you more about getting rid of political parties and would like to include removing any kind of political add from TV as well. It was to me very disheartening when politicians and PAC leaders would come into my American Government class and write on the board the formula for winning an election - Polls + Money + TV = Win. I also found it disconcerning when a woman I talked to wasn't able to run for an elected position under her political party because her views didn't entirely line up. What's wrong with thinking for yourself? To me, independant thinking is one of the greatest qualitys one can have. |
|
24 Sep 02 - 11:23 PM (#790723) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: DougR Nicole: for those who find satisfaction from going to the polls, I say, "right one" and evidently you are one of those. I find voting by mail satisfaction enough. Voting is a priviledge afforded every U. S. citizen, and I agree, as you said in this, or another thread, that it should not be forced on anyone. It's a shame that more people do not take advantage of it however. It causes me to wonder, sometime, if some folks don't find more satisfaction from bitching about things they object to, rather than voting to make things more like they would like them to be. None of my remarks are pointed at you though. DougR DougR DougR |
|
24 Sep 02 - 11:31 PM (#790726) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Bobert Well, Doug, I'm with you on this one too. We're on a roll. I like voting, even if occasionally I wait in line for an hour for the privledge of writing in "none of the above". Bobert |
|
25 Sep 02 - 12:53 AM (#790762) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: DougR You will note, Bobert, how committed I am to it. I signed my name three times to the previous message! DougR |
|
25 Sep 02 - 01:06 AM (#790766) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Amos You two remind me of Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum! LOL! A |
|
25 Sep 02 - 02:16 AM (#790784) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Don Firth Haven't missed an election since 1952. I voted all the primaries, too. I tend to think the voter turnout might improve a whole lot if the bottom of each list of candidates had a place where you could vote "None of the Above." If sufficient people voted that way, they would have to pull that office and come up with an entirely different slate of candidates. Don Firth |
|
25 Sep 02 - 01:18 PM (#791106) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Little Hawk That is an inspired idea, Don! - LH |
|
25 Sep 02 - 04:35 PM (#791245) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: DougR Couldn't you effectively do the same thing by just not voting for any of them Don. If we followed your plan we would always be in an election mode and I don't think, personally, I could sit through that many political ads on TV. :>) DougR |
|
25 Sep 02 - 06:09 PM (#791301) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: NicoleC Preferrential voting would solve that problem, Doug. It works surprisingly well in the places that use it. It's also known as "Instant Runoff" For example, if you wanted to vote for Nader, but didn't want to help Bush, you could vote (in this hypothetical election): 1. Nader 2. Gore 3. Bush 4. Perot 5. Buchanan When Buchanan comes in as the candidate with the least votes, those ballots with him listed as #1 get bumped to their #2 candidate. Meanwhile, everyone else continues to support their #1 candidate. This process continues until one of the candidates has a majority vote. If you absolutely don't want to vote for someone, you don't have to -- you can rank as many or as few candidates as you want. You can only rank one if you want. It's more accurate than plurality elections and doesn't require the voter to go back to vote again like runoff voting. It's also cheaper than runoff voting, and has been shown to improve voter turnout where it's used. It's gaining popularity in local elections, particularly in places where there are viable 3rd party candidates. It removes "spoiler" votes (and the inevitable fakes candidates), It'll be interesting to see what happens in San Francisco next year when they adopt it. There are a lot of nearby cities considering it, and SF is kind of a test case. If it works well in SF, it could cause a cascade effect here and then probably The Utah Republican Party used it to do their primary election for House Reps. Even in places with strong 2-party systems, it could improve the primary process by suporting candidates who are most in line with the majority's opinions. |
|
25 Sep 02 - 06:16 PM (#791308) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Don Firth Doug, A person who doesn't vote for a particular candidate just doesn't vote. If the person does vote, it's oftentimes a matter of trying to decide between the lesser of two evils. No matter how you vote, you get someone in the office that you don't think should be there. What I propose is a way for the electorate to say "No! None of these candidates are acceptable. I would rather have this office vacant than to have it occupied by any of these candidates. Rethink this, and give the voters a better slate!" To a politician, there would be a big difference between losing an election and finding oneself on a list of candidates that the electorate has declare unacceptable. With that option over their heads (being on such a list would quite likely kill their political career), politicians might keep their socks pulled up, their flies zipped, spend less time catering to special interests, and really get down to serving the people like they're elected to do. Incidentally, this idea is not original with me. A number of fairly prominent people have suggested it. I think it's a good one, and I really hope it catches fire. Don Firth |
|
25 Sep 02 - 06:35 PM (#791317) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Amos Nicole: Brilliance and clarity are becoming your trademarks around here! I love the idea of scaled preferential voting. A reallyu great algorithm for better social representation!! Love it!! A |
|
25 Sep 02 - 07:33 PM (#791350) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: NicoleC Hmmm. Even though I forgot to finish a couple of my sentences? :) Instant Runoff Voting requires modern voting machines -- no punch cards -- so it is unlikely to get adopted quickly by poorer places. But Don's right. Often there are no really acceptable candidates. It'd be nice to tell 'em "you stink!" |
|
25 Sep 02 - 07:44 PM (#791365) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Bobert Don: Hey, a man after my own heart. I have written some real outragous things on ballots but I vote on some of the contests and issues. Yeah, I like "None of the above". Bobert |
|
25 Sep 02 - 07:50 PM (#791372) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: michaelr "It causes me to wonder, sometime, if some folks don't find more satisfaction from bitching about things they object to, rather than voting to make things more like they would like them to be." Problem is, Doug, that a lot of things people bitch about aren't up for a vote on any ballot. It takes a lot of "bitching" to get our representatives to introduce bills that address the concerns of the populace. Cheers, Michael |
|
26 Sep 02 - 07:33 AM (#791606) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Hrothgar In Australia (home of the secret ballot!) preferential voting is used in most states as well as federally. It works well, even if we did wind up with a toe rag like John Howard for Prime Minister. We also have compulsory voting, and election days are Saturdays. This means turnouts over 95% generally. If I remember correctly, the number of informal (invalid, if you like) votes about equals the number of "no-shows" so we have valid votes cast by 90% of the population. We even count them, which doesn't happen in some countries! :-)) Mind you, This system hasn't improved the quality of politicians to any noticeable extent. Peace. |
|
26 Sep 02 - 12:46 PM (#791841) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Don Firth I like the preferential voting thing, Nicole. Actually, I think preferential voting in combination with a "None of the Above" option would be a real winner. Don Firth |
|
26 Sep 02 - 12:59 PM (#791857) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: wysiwyg Say, BTW, innit funny to have an Obit run so long? If it's dead, what are we all still doing here? I mean, I'm still here, and alive and kicking ASS, and so is the positivity I hope my life is generating around me. And hopefully even more, tomorrow. Even if it's s'posed to be dead. Guess there's dead, and then there's dead. Funny.. I don't recall being resurrected? ~Susan |
|
26 Sep 02 - 01:08 PM (#791871) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Bobert Hard to keep a good spirit down, WYSIWYG. Hmmmmmm? I'm sniffin' a miracle here. Whaddayathink? Bobert |
|
26 Sep 02 - 04:02 PM (#791977) Subject: RE: BS: Son of 'Obit America' From: Amos Well, they usually blank that part of the memory out when they do it, so you won't go around telling the other Earthlings, see.... :>) A |