|
04 Oct 02 - 05:15 PM (#797064) Subject: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka Police Raid Sinn Fein Offices, Homes The Associated Press Oct 4 2002 9:49AM BELFAST, Northern Ireland (AP) - Police raided homes and offices of the Sinn Fein party Friday, seizing computer records and arresting several people in an apparent crackdown on intelligence-gathering by the Irish Republican Army. Sinn Fein spokesman Gerry Kelly claimed police were trying to undermine the party and placate Protestant politicians. Protestant leaders want to expel Sinn Fein, the political wing of the IRA, from the Northern Ireland government because of continued IRA violence. ``This is a highly political raid,'' said Kelly, whom police believe is a senior IRA commander. At dawn, police kicked down doors of Sinn Fein activists in Catholic areas of west and north Belfast. Later, more than a dozen officers led by the police's secretive Special Branch intelligence arm seized documents at Sinn Fein's offices. They refused to say how many people had been arrested. Sinn Fein said that among the arrested was Denis Donaldson, the party's senior office worker at the government's east Belfast headquarters, Stormont. Sinn Fein lawmaker Conor Murphy said others from the party arrested were involved ``in policing, justice and human rights issues.'' Officials in the Northern Ireland government, speaking on condition of anonymity, said another person arrested was a former government employee who left his post last year. Police said the raids were linked to IRA intelligence gathering and said the operation was ordered by Chief Constable Hugh Orde, amid fears that the IRA had obtained sensitive ministerial documents. First Minister David Trimble, the Protestant head of Northern Ireland's power-sharing government, said he suspected the IRA had gathered information about government officials. He called on British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Northern Ireland Secretary John Reid to take action against Sinn Fein. ``What we know so far, or suspect so far, is that there has been an IRA intelligence operation directed against the upper echelons of the government, having penetrated the Northern Ireland office,'' he said. Friday's raids were the largest against activists of the Sinn Fein-IRA movement since April, when police arrested four men. One of them was charged with compiling information likely to be of use for IRA attacks on British security installations and politicians. Sinn Fein insisted the computer disks taken away from its Stormont offices contained such pedestrian items as a backup of Windows 98 operating software. Protestant politicians applauded the raids, particularly the unprecedented search of offices at Stormont, a grand white marble building overlooking Belfast that is home to the province's four-party government. ``I hope there will be no hiding place for the IRA from now on,'' said Jeffrey Donaldson, an Ulster Unionist Party skeptic of Northern Ireland's 1998 peace accord. The Northern Ireland government, formed in December 1999, is the central accomplishment of the 1998 Good Friday accord. It includes two British Protestant parties and two Irish Catholic parties. Trimble has threatened to withdraw his Ulster Unionist Party from the coalition by January unless the Irish Republican Army shows it has renounced violence. A withdrawal would cause the coalition to collapse. 10/04/02 09:46 EDT |
|
04 Oct 02 - 05:34 PM (#797074) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: GUEST,Ireland "The Northern Ireland government, formed in December 1999, is the central accomplishment of the 1998 Good Friday accord. It includes two British Protestant parties and two Irish Catholic parties." It contains two pro unionist parties, mainly protestant supporters, it does have some Catholic support. Also two pro United Ireland parties which are mainly Catholic but has protestant members. Too many hijack the religion aspect rather than the political preferences of the parties members. An American is wanted by the PSNI,for questioning about taking part in a breakin at Castlereagh police station. |
|
04 Oct 02 - 06:30 PM (#797094) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow Who doesn't spy on their political opponents and colleagues? |
|
04 Oct 02 - 07:59 PM (#797126) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: greg stephens Very good point, agree absolutely McGrath. But then it's equally true that not everybody shoots, blows up, or kneecaps people they disagree with politically. Or children shopping, for that matter. I don't, and I strongly suspect you don't. Belfast is not exactly analogous to the folk scene in Harlow. |
|
04 Oct 02 - 08:29 PM (#797144) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow Yeah, but that's not what these raids are about, they're about alleged political snooping. And as for shooting or blowing up people they disagree with politically, sadly rather a lot of very respectable governments go in for precisely that. I think there's some political dirty work going on here. As you say Greg, this is Belfast, and the rules are different. |
|
04 Oct 02 - 08:53 PM (#797151) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka I haven't looked into this (lately) at all, beyond reading & posting the above article. But my provisional (you should pardon the expression) assumption is that it all has at least *something* to do with First Minister Trimble's ongoing efforts to stave off the surging Paisleyites, electorally. He's gotta look Tough. To save his Arse. Upon the survival of which less-than-attractive political appendage, the Good Friday Agreement does unfortunately seem to depend. And now, I shall conclude (for the moment:) & make way for somebody (anybody!) who knows what s/he is talking about. Come all ye Norn Iron 'Cats, and enlighten us. What in the Divil is going on? |
|
04 Oct 02 - 11:46 PM (#797214) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Coyote Breath Ah yes Belfast, and the rules ARE different. I'm sorry if this next bit offends anyone but ever since the IRA made the gestures towards peace that they have, their "opponents" have tried EVERYTHING to torpedo the agreement. Tried to PROVOKE reaction. Tried to get the "OLD" game going again. Even though it is a game that no one can win it allows certain agencies and their political apologists to appear to be defending the "realm" (or what ever). The whole thing makes me want to scream and run wildly into the mountains of Wyoming and never come out. I have a love of the Irish and the British and I can't stand to see this insanity continue. I hate the Paisleyites and those that distort religion and religous doctrine to suit their pathetic posturings for power. I think ... ah who gives a shit(e)what I think? CB |
|
05 Oct 02 - 03:52 AM (#797251) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: John MacKenzie Well it's no good adopting the 10 commandments, as a basis for living, and then only keeping the ones you want. Same is true of the signatories to the Good Friday agreement. It's just that some keep more commandments than others. I say give the north to the south as a gift, and let them sort it out. From what I hear they don't want the IRA, any more than the Brits do. Giok |
|
05 Oct 02 - 05:20 AM (#797273) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: greg stephens I think my point was valid. I'm interested in vernacular architecture, so if I walked down your street jotting things down in a notebook while examining your house it wouldnt be a very hostile action. If, on the other hand, I had a string of previous convictions for burglary, you would have good reason for treating me with some suspicion. |
|
05 Oct 02 - 07:18 AM (#797300) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: GUEST,Ireland If you buy into this BS that the situation in Belfast has to have different rules applied to it than any other democratic system then you give credence to the thugs that want to run N.I. for themselves. No matter what side it comes from the type of snooping that goes on does not instill confidence in these people. It is well known that SF is the political wing of the IRA, so the political snooping takes a more sinister turn to intelligence gathering, to identify the weakness of your enemy. SF say they want to represent all the people of Ireland, why gather info that threatens peoples security. Why do they not give the names of those who carried out the Omagh bombing, they will not even encourage people to come forward with what they know. Hardly conducive to a fair representative for all, why is it that political corruption and wrong doing in other countries is exposed we accept it as good work one less corrupt politician. This is what the raid is about pure and simple getting rid of corrupt politicians, and those who hold democracy dear moan about that. |
|
05 Oct 02 - 07:47 AM (#797303) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow I note from the paper that this operation was not in fact approved in advance by John Reid the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, which given its sensitivity you'd expect. (Well if the Met were to raid the House of Commons I think it'd get discussed with the Home Office. (No, he hasn't retrospectively condemned it - well he couldn't very well. I suspect he's bloody furious.) This smacks of dirty tricks. If the British Military Intelligence isn't gathering information about everyone in Sinn Fein, and keeping up to date any information it's got about the IRA, I'd be astonished. And the British authorities in Northern Ireland have "a string of convictions" too, don't forget. Hell, British Military Intelligence probably gathers information on everybody anyway, just in case. There's very likely files full of that kind of stuff about the USA, just in case. And I imagine that applies the other way round. Nobody trusts anybody. The ceasefire in Northern Ireland is holding amazingly well, so far as the IRA goes anyway. Not perfect, you don't get perfection in this kind of situation. There are some people on both sides who would like to see the war start up again. This kind of operation plays into their hands, and the worry is that this may in fact have been the idea in the minds of some of those responsible. |
|
05 Oct 02 - 08:10 AM (#797314) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: greg stephens I doubt if anybody in NI politics hasnt got a "string of convictions". I'm not taking sides. |
|
05 Oct 02 - 08:30 AM (#797320) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: GUEST,Ireland This is were many people miss the point, SF has a private army at its back,every politician recognises that. If SF was the ruling government in their own country such as USA you would have a valid point, as it is those who they are gathering intelligence for is a terrorist organisation, lets not loose sight of that. If the republic of Ireland was caught gathering intelligence I say you would have a valid point,but to put SF/IRA on the same level is ludicrous. Would the SDLP have the right to gather information which can be used to destabilise the government and threaten lives, they do not get involved in that, as they follow the democratic process. It has been said "the IRA have not gone away you know", why say that and claim your following the democratic process? But if you do not do what we want we'll bring back the boy's. Instead of accusing those who try to prevent a corrupt political party with dubious partners with dirty tricks, try asking what use such information is to SF and how it benefits it's terrorist wing. If you cannot make the leap I'll try, the info gathered at Castlereagh is of vital importance to a terrorist group who wants to know the name add and Tel.No. of those who try to stop them making and planting their bombs. And as is human nature people will always cry foul when they are prevented from doing want they want to do. It was such intelligence that led to the Canary Wharf, mortar attack on Downing St. need I go on? To moan about combating the intelligence gathering of a terrorist organisation is reprehensible, in the past it has saved lives and that Mc G of H your condemning with such comments. |
|
05 Oct 02 - 08:41 AM (#797323) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: GUEST,Ireland Greg N.I. has many good politicians without a record as for those who do they use their experience to condemn the violence and terrorists ways of the past. SF however has many political innovations to offer far and above the offerings of some politicans. The point people miss is simple,you cannot have a private army to be used as a threat if you do not get your way. If the conservative party had a military wing it would not be tolerated, why should SF have one? The rules of democracy apply to N.I. just as it does to any democratic country throughout the world. |
|
05 Oct 02 - 09:20 AM (#797334) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka Well *I* give a shit(e) what you think, Coyot(e) Br(e)ath. Ah feel yore pain. :) You make a valid (if partial) point. Stay with us. Please do not forever repair to the High Mountings of th' oul' Wyomings; for beware: And when they bore his body down those rugged heather braes, They placed the Broad Black Brimmer on his breast. [Pook sneaks a bit o' music in wi' th' BS] We need you alive & posting, from the Flatlands, CB. :) Giok: 'it's no good only obeying the laws you like'; right on; but enough about the U.S. Republicans & Democrats. / And while I like your frustration-relieving fantasy, the Six Counties cannot just be the gift the giftie gie us, until the people there so vote. Which they will eventually, sez I. (By 2016, says Education Minister McGuinness, Deputy Commander Derry Brigade, Bloody Sunday, but "There is no evidence that I was armed.") I think the Republic will likewise vote to accept 'em (what are they gonna do, go back on 100 years of themselves roaring out of them about it?)--- but not without considerable trepidation, and dissent, and a sizeable minority "No" vote.) McGrath, cogently thought & nicely stated as usual. Quit being so be so damn sagacious, wouldyez; it's annoying. :) Yeah I'll bet John Reid *is* "bloody furious". Har har har...Like to be the proverbial fly on the wall; hear some fine Brit similes & metaphors.... Greg stephens, multiple strings of convictions, yes. (Long Kesh: political campaign school?) Of course Back in the USSA, an increasing numner of our own politicoes are acquiring the Courage of their Convictions, too. / Me, I always take both sides. In case you hadn't noticed. :) |
|
05 Oct 02 - 09:26 AM (#797340) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka Guest - yes, the rules of democracy must be made to apply; and isn't that what the Agreement is about and is painfully *working towards*? And you're correct, essentially, about SF/IRA. But there are *several* private armies, on both---or on *several*---sides, backing the politicians from whose ranks they have, supposedly, graduated. They must all be permanently decommissioned. Progress toward that has occurred, has it not? More needed. Doesn't happen instantaneously. (More's the pity.) |
|
05 Oct 02 - 09:46 AM (#797348) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: GUEST,Ireland No real progress yes and no, TP, the violence goes on, base ball bats,hammers and the good old boot is some of the weapons being used by both sides. Such beatings are not as news worthy or attention grabbing as bombs and shooting, so it goes relatively unnoticed. So to the people who live through this has anything really changed no. On the other hand no more long traffic lines waiting to get through vehicle check points,no general inconvenience due to bomb scares, but still the odd retaliation murder and punishment beating goes on and to its victims nothing has changed. For the I'm all right crowd every things changed, until it makes a difference on their life, and the representatives who are in government refuse to recommend that people come forward with information to put away the people who represent no change in N.I. So is there any change at all for the victims. |
|
05 Oct 02 - 09:55 AM (#797353) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka Thank you Guest Ireland. I see what you mean. / It's easy to be optimistic, or complacent, (and/or flippant) from over here on the faraway other side of the Pond. Not so easy in the mean streets of the interface areas, I'm sure. --TP |
|
05 Oct 02 - 12:06 PM (#797425) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow When you're building a house of cards you have to be careful pulling out the ones that a bit ragged and damaged, because the whole thing might fall down. There's a point at which you can add on enough extra cards to make it pretty stable, but it takes time and demands caution. The numbers of people killed or injured is way down, and that's a solid fact. And for a hint of what a breakdown in the peace process could mean, have a look at what's happening in Israel and Palestine. |
|
05 Oct 02 - 12:56 PM (#797455) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: GUEST,Ireland Palestine having a hard time, could that be due to ex PLO terrorist Arafat not dissociating himself from the terrorists that strap bombs to themselves. He has taken a long long time to condemn the actions of such people in his native language. This parallels with SF/IRA,the IRA aligned themselves with the PLO,SF do not ask for people to report terrorist knowledge and still continue their intelligence gathering. Like Arafat they are responsible for the majority of the trouble they are in, so your point is correct SF do need to look to Palestine and Israel and see were Arafat is going wrong. In Israeli and Palestine terms it is the ex terrorist turned politician that is threatening and destroying the peace in that region. Like Adams he cannot condemn the actions of those who followed his example,neither will put forward information that will lead to the capture of terrorists who are a threat to democracy, they do not defend the principle of the system they want to be part of. One of the people arrested was an ex terrorist, it is obvious he did not abandon his ways,he was given a position in the N.I. Office only to abuse it. Can you explain to me as an ex soldier how I am going to have confidence in SF as part of government when they do not protect mine and others interest? SF is failing the democratic process by allowing such actions, they knew the nature of this man, and did nothing to prevent his appointment to the N.I office position he held. They knew he was compromised instead of doing the right things which build confidence they turned a blind eye, now this happen and they whine about it. To use the spectre of going back to the actions of the past is plain scare mongering, after 911, terrorism has no place in this world and SF know that. As is they know that the carrot of cessation of military activity cannot be used now to get them into government.They have to follow the democratic process and that does not involve private armies that used the armalite,bomb and ballot box to get them into power. The killings may be well down but the terrorist activities from both sides are not the intel gathering proves that. What you are saying is it is better to live under these conditions than to say we made a mistake, tell that to people living on the interfaces. Why gather intel for a terrorist organisation? |
|
05 Oct 02 - 01:10 PM (#797465) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow What I'd say is better to live through this period with all its imperfections than go back to the past, and to something worse than the past, as happened in Palestine and Israel, and as could happen in Northern Ireland. |
|
05 Oct 02 - 01:36 PM (#797475) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: GUEST,Ireland Why live under that threat,it's madness. We will never go to the extremes of Palestine and Israel, have you forgotten about the SDLP, it's pure scare mongering to put such an argument forward. Where are the IRA going to get the weapons to launch such attacks, if they already have them, then they are not keeping to the GFA, in that case the GFA is not working and it is their doing. They cannot ride two horses at once, to paraphrase Adams. |
|
05 Oct 02 - 02:23 PM (#797503) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka Hm. Perhaps the police (what is the RUC's new name now?? I don't mean the Pope's Special Forces, as Paisley seems to fear it will become) should surround Adams in his compound & confine him to 2 rooms? Look, Guest Eire, you continue to make valid points. But SF HAS competed democratically, and with considerable success, as a political party in NI *and* now in the Republic. Increased from one TD to 5 (just missed 6) down South last election. / As, yes, have also Rev. Paisley's rejectionist Unionists done well politically in the North. Democracy, albeit imperfectly as McGrath says, is occurring. Indeed, SDLP is hard-pressed, electorally, by SF; as is Trimble by Paisley. Moderation, hard to come by I guess, is needed. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 11:42 AM (#797641) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland pooka, paisley has done nothing for N.I. except offer despair and a source of reasons why the two communities hate each other. On the face of it SF is playing the democratic game,I for one thought that we were making progress when the power sharing started, over 30 years too late if you ask me. But in behind scenes the spying and undermining of security is not in the remit of those who say they want to represent all the communities. I was genuinely saddened when the raids came about as it tells me that, I as a person who will accept a democratically voted for united Ireland will not have representatives in government that will instill in me any form of confidence. It's naive to believe such spying was going on without SF knowledge, I'm not saying this from an anti SF perspective, given the nature of the organisation it sends shivers throughout N.I. and people have to ask are we being fooled. As for the increase in elections, SF has no problem with poaching the odd vote or two, which has been admitted to in the past, some of their elections in the Republic has also been questioned. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 12:39 PM (#797657) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: ard mhacha McGrath you are talking sense, but, just try and compromise with the Loyalists, that is impossible, everything has been tried but to no avail. Paisley and his goons won`t be content until the IRA return, and then he will be able to rant and roar about Democracy, we are back to square one. Ard Mhacha. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 01:05 PM (#797674) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Peter K (Fionn) McGrath, where did you get your information that the raid was about political snooping, or did you make it up? I thought it was about gathering information useful for terrorist activity, but we will have to see what, if any, court convictions result. If it turns out that SF/IRA have been caught out in some criminal activity then they have been stupid beyond words. (As, alas, they have been many times.) I came back from my last visit to Belfast just before the raid, pretty much convinced that the Belfast/GF Agreement was doomed. It was impossible to find a protestant who was not wholeheartedly opposed to it. It will be ironic if SF have handed the unionists a perfect excuse for walking away, which is what they were almost certainly going to do anyway. In some parts of Belfast, particularly Short Strand and areas of north Belfast (the trouble goes as far out as Serpentine Road and the "white city" now) it's been a turbulent and unpleasant summer. There is no doubt that the IRA have been active, but equally no doubt that by far the greater amount of crime, including murder, has been from the loyalist side (though you would never think it, to hear the unionist politicians whining). The GF agreement has only staggered on this far by dint of ridiculous devices, London and Dublin being desperate not to lose it. But it was supposed to have majority support in each of the two (nationalist and loyalist) communities. Now that it has no unionist support whatsoever, it should be laid to rest and government from Westminster restored. This would not reduce Dublin's role and voice. In fact in many ways Dublin would probably find Westminster easier to deal with than Stormont. I see no prospect of the scenario that McGrath envisages of a return to the bad old days. The IRA has nothing like the active community support it once had, and which it would need to mount a major campaign, with so many catholic grievances now redressed, and visible progress being made towards fairer policing. If trouble comes, it will come from the loyalists, but my guess is that here again, too many people are feeling comfortable and would have too much to lose from allowing a major campaign to get off the ground. For my money the guy who continues to talk most sense is the one-time UVF hard-man David Ervine, who puts many long-term seasoned politicians on both sides to shame. If more people at the extremes had been willing to move their positions as far as he has, the whole imbroglio would have been sorted out by now. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 01:32 PM (#797686) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka ard mhacha, McGrath *always* talks sense. It's so frustrating. :) Me oul da', God rest him, always called himself a "pollyanna" -- eternal optimist -- and I guess the mantle descends. Granted that I'm not Over There, experiencing discrimination, hatred, and physical danger. But I'm reluctant to accept that compromise is *impossible*. Seems some has already occurred---the GF Agreement itself, the Council of NI itself; granted, again, that its collapse seems always imminent. Is it not the case that there are Loyalists, and then there are Loyalists? Just as there are Republicans, and then again there are other Republicans? I pray so. Ireland, far be it from me ever to wish for anyone's personal demise (well yes, perhaps I make *certain* exceptions, Saddam); but just in terms of nature taking its course, isn't Rev. Paisley getting a bit long in the tooth, as they say? What is he, 80? Surely he has nothing to fear from the Judgement of his Maker, Whom he *knows* is a fellow Orangeman after all...On the other hand, if he *should* somehow wind up in the Other Place, he could busy himself spraypainting "No Pope Here" upon the smoldering walls...the (norn)irony wouldn't occur to him...:) OKOK, I'll agree with you about the spying. Political spying, while surely common everywhere, is at the least a Dirty Trick even when there *aren't* armed militiae lurking in the alleyways to put a fearsome edge on it. Here in Far Americay we had our fill of it with ol' DurtyTrickyDick Nixon and his stupidarsed "Plumbers"; but of course it goes on still. ("Moles" in the other party's camp, etc.)With the paramilitaries---plural---around, I do indeed take your point. As to vote-poaching: also pandemic; & also unacceptable of course. But I doubt that SF's electoral gains have been significantly enhanced via robbery. (Unlike SF/IRA's *finances*, which, I gather, have.) |
|
06 Oct 02 - 01:33 PM (#797687) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow I wasn't thinking so much in terms of a formal end of the ceasefire with the IRA and the UDA and all going back on a "war footing" overnight as a "rational" policy with some "rational objective". What I meant is this is a fragile situation with a lot of possibilities of disintegrating very fast into some kind of nightmare, with nobody gaining anything or even thinking they are likely to gain anything. There are a lot of people out there with mental capacity to carry out atrocities and counter-atrocities, and the whole thing could disintegrate horribly rapidly - and that's where the analogy with Israel/Palestine comes in. (And I'm glad to see you've registered and lost that GUEST prefix, Ireland. At least now if we're disagreeing, I'll know it's you and not someone else trying to stir things up.) |
|
06 Oct 02 - 01:37 PM (#797689) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka Fionn - boy that's bleak, as regards the unionists anyway. Didn't know it had deteriorated that badly. But thanks for the first-person eyewitness report. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 01:46 PM (#797692) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka Speaking of irony, odd that maybe the republicans' best outcome for now, and not a bad one at that per Fionn, is return to direct rule from Westminster. Hm. O God Bless England is our Prayer. Well, the unionists were split down the middle in the GFA referendum; and I suppose they perceive---correctly---that they are gradually losing power under the Agreement. Political shift predictable, I guess. But yeah Fionn, I sure wish there were more David Ervines, from your description of him. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 02:32 PM (#797723) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland The hope of all those who signed the referendum for the GFA are dashed, the majority of people put their faith in the agreement when events occur that represent no change or abuse then people are entitled to want an end to it. I for one am dissapointed in SF as I thought they had the chance to put their money were their mouth is and do some real work. We can all put forward examples of loyalist/unionist actions to bring about an end to the GFA, but thats neither here nor there in respect to what SF has done. They knew going into the GFA and government they would be watched and judged on every move, rather that act like statemen/women, they let us all down. And as Fionn says it is information useful to terrorist activity. Lets explore that side of the problem without the usual what the prods do, as it takes the attention from what really is going on. If that info led to a terrorist attack, SF would say the usual we don't agree with violence but not condemn the people who carried out the attack as done in the past. Look at the shooting of the bus driver by the IRA. If that is the type of representatives that people hold up as an example, we really are going nowhere with the GFA. It's better knowing now and saying catch yourself on before we go too far. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 03:44 PM (#797773) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow I don't think there's always a clear distinction between the kinds of information that is useful for political activity and the kind of information that is useful for terrorist activity. Even stuff like phone numbers, and home addresses and timetables of politicians whereabouts, for example. It's by no means clear from anything I've seen in the media what actually has been going on, and what significance it might have. Jumping to conclusions in advance of having the facts is too easy, and too prevalent. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 03:50 PM (#797780) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka "Jumping to conclusions in advance of having the facts is too easy, and too prevalent." McGRATH, WOULD YEZ LAVE OFF BEIN' SO BLOODY SENSIBLE?? How're we supposed to have lively discussions around here if we have to stick to the facts? Harrumph. :) |
|
06 Oct 02 - 04:21 PM (#797795) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland How do we send a message to terrorists that they are not wanted, when we have distinctions on their activities, that act is not as bad as the other. Fact is terrorism is terrorism, and no matter what the information gathered is useful for it was gotten under illegal circumstance's. We need to establish stability in N.I. and accepting one action as not as bad as the other sends the wrong message. I condemn the whole lot, all N.I. terrorists, and believe a law breaker is exactly that a law breaker no grey areas. SF has to drop it's private army and make some hard decisions that will invite more acceptance from the "unionist" side and any political party that excuses 911 should really consider if they want to be part of the democratic process. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 04:59 PM (#797821) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow But doing something illegal isn't quite the same thing as terrorism, otherwise most of us would be classed as terrorists before we were through this life. That's not meant as a glib comment. The point is, if they excluded all the people with lawbreaking pasts and terrorist connections or involvement from political life in Northern Ireland they'd be excluding the very people who have to be included if there's going to be a chance of getting anywhere at all. The corollary of this is that they have to be doing their best to try to keep the ceasefire holding. And is there a political party that seeks to "excuse" what happened on September 11th? |
|
06 Oct 02 - 05:10 PM (#797825) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka Ireland (continuing this trialogue, assuming McGrath hasn't given up on us yet) - agreed on all points in your last. But, re SF: Adams & McGuinness *did* finally persuade (command??) the Provies to at least begin decommissioning their armaments. Now, No that's not disbandment of the IRA as an organization; and No even the disarmament itself is far from complete, I'm sure. Right. But, it's a step in the right direction; and it was *a very difficult one for them to take*, given the physical-force ideology & mythology, the inevitable spinoff of splinter-groups (RIRA, Continuity, etc.), and all that. I've read (you tell me whether accurately) that Adams & McGuinness themselves may be "marked men" as a result: quislings, you know. (Exactly consistent with the IRA's long & bloody record of serial splits & internecine assassinations, in which Adams & McGuinness of course are complicit.) My point is that if some decommissioning, long rejected as unthinkable ("Not one bullet") --- and, come to think of it, also the unprecedented & unqualified public apology for the killing of "non-combatants" --- can occur, then who is to say that eventual disbandment will not? *I know these are small steps* (and that a "We're so sorry" statement can be infuriating given the history, and brings back not one slaughtered child, woman or man. / But, are these not at least glimmers of hope? If at least *some* of the "hard men", on all the damned sides, can see the need to change---might not they all, eventually? Or, enough of them to make peace possible? |
|
06 Oct 02 - 05:15 PM (#797829) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland Printed in An Phoblact "We know only too well how in the Middle East and in Central America the pursuit of a militaristic and aggressive policy by US governments and by those governments it sponsored, led to the deaths of many thousands of innocent people. It will compound the tragedy of 11 September 2001 if that is repeated The perpetrators of the atrocities in Washington and New York may well have their origins in the political disaster area which is the Middle East. But it is a disaster area for which the `West' and its client governments bear much responsibility. Lashing out in that direction at targets vaguely defined under the label `international terrorism' will fulfil only the desire for revenge and ultimately inflame the region yet further". You cannot condemn a terrorist act if your one yourself, bit like pot calling kettle black. But as a terrorist you can condemn those who fight against it. What use is the names and details of politicans and security workers to the IRA? It is against the law to gather such information, lets not miss the point the IRA were not gathering this for benign reasons. The person arrested had sack loads of documents in his house material that was useful to terrorists. In no way can that be defended. Trying to look at this in any other light is fooling yourself, tell me whu he needed that information for? If you can give me a good reason I'll be more than happy. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 05:23 PM (#797831) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka McG (Grath, not Guinness) is still with us; good; we're a Trio by God. Let's make a CD. :) "Irish Songs of Rebellious Moderation". Yes, Kevin, there *are* some parties here that excuse 9/11, as being Our Own Fault. Small groups on the extreme left & right. Interestingly, our white-racist fascist far right (no I do not mean the President) makes common cause with the Arab Jihad Islamicists --- good blonde Aryans all, I'm just sure --- because of their shared hatred of the Jews. / And even Patrick J. Buchanan, that renowned lefist progressive Republican, recently said on TV that "The terrorists are over here because we are over there." Of course he went on to add that he wasn't condoning the attacks. Good, Pat. But this isn't Thread Creep, it's Thread Runaway. Sorry. Back to Ireland. (Ireland?? Still there?) |
|
06 Oct 02 - 05:24 PM (#797833) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka Whoa. Guess *so*. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 05:41 PM (#797838) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka Woops / Kevin I thought you meant a *US* political party. (Of course, there isn't one that *matters* that excuses 9/11.) Sinn Fein, yeah Ireland, I know they are ideologically aligned against "US Imperialism" and in favor of the Downtrodden Masses (no, not in Church) & thus "soft" on Mideast terror groups. Plus, they've doubtless exchanged some valuable pointers, and materiel, with 'em. Plus, I gather (correct me if wrong here) they're not real huge friends of the Jews, who I guess aren't Downtrodden enough any more. *PLUS*, as you suggest, SF/IRA have a wee inconsistency problem if they condemn terrorism outright & unqualified. There's an irony here too: because many of SF/IRA's naive (romantic, Celtic-misty-eyed, whatever) financial contributors over here in the Irish-American community, are also big kick-ass USA! USA! patriots whose gut instinct, if not policy, is to nuke all the damn Arabs and be done with it. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 05:50 PM (#797841) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland Step in the right direction is an argument that wears out really thin Pooka,especially when there are more steps in the wrong direction. The recent shooting of a bus driver by the IRA is not in the right direction. These people had the opportunity to make a real difference,they abused it. They let down those who voted for the GFA, they gave credence to those who objected to their private army, and have given the unionists the perfect excuse to call and end to it all. We cannot blame anyone other than SF/IRA, they cannot blame anyone else for what looks like the ending of the GFA. The guy arrested had sack loads of information he did not bother to conceal the documents, they were in the wrong simple. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 06:02 PM (#797848) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow I've read editorials and letters, saying essentially the same as that quote from An Phoblact,in mainstream publications which clearly have no sympathy at all for terrorism. They aren't seeking to excuse it, but to warn about the danger of ill-directed retaliation, and identify some contributory factors. Incidentally, when the quote refers to "the deaths of many thousands of innocent people", and suggests that the US government carries responsibility for them, it doesn't read to me as a reference to September 11th at all.
|
|
06 Oct 02 - 06:25 PM (#797862) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Peter K (Fionn) Ireland, you will gather that I am with you spart of the way. (Though not on your comments about the middle east, in which respect I must confess that I am myself slightly "soft" on so-called terrorism.) What I can't accept is your bland implication that the unionists/loyalists have contributed nothing to the present crisis, when it is loyalist thugs, often up to their armpits in drug-dealing and other crime, who have carried out most of the atrocities in recent months. (They have been teetering on the verge of a wholesale cull among themselves. Let's hope the SF raids etc don't distract them.) Moreover the wider protestant/unionist community is, in my view, collectively wrong to have set its heart against the Good Friday Agreement. My reason for arguing against pushing them too hard, too fast, is solely pragmatic. They are an increasingly desperate bunch, acutely aware of their minority status in the island of Ireland, imbued with a seige mentality and fearful that they have done more than enough over the years to stoke up a great deal of animosity against themselves. Several times they have behaved with such crass indifference to world opinion that the only explanation must be that they believe they have nothing left to lose. It is crucial to long-term stability that they are persuaded to see a future worth buying into. So I suppose I am "soft" on loyalists too, to the extent that I think they should be treated like children. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 06:36 PM (#797881) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Peter K (Fionn) McGrath, I hadn't seen your last post. If the IRA is indeed keeping itself in a state of readiness for a breakdown in the ceasefire, then i think the unionist side is fully entitled to view that as a breach of good faith. Sinn Feinn have become an integral element in a democracy on the basis that they have put violence behind them. To give that commitment while keeping a private army in the wings, primed for action, is exactly what the Good Friday agreement is NOT all about. We can obviously quibble about the strengths and weaknesses in the present democracy. But as it IS a democracy, the way to do that is by political debate and winning the argument. Anyone who declines to take part in such debate at gunpoint has my sympathy. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 07:24 PM (#797926) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka Ireland, I agree that the shooting of anybody by anybody is a step in the wrong ditection, namely, backward. McG of Harlow, no I don't read An Poblacht's 'the deaths of thousands' as re Sept. 11 either. It refers to consequences of US actions & policies abroad. As to Sept. 11, Gerry Adams *claimed*, and *sounded* sincere to (gullible?) me, that he was personally very shaken by it, having visited the WTC not long before on one of his US tours (fundraising for "relief" y'know), and especially in light of the slaughter of hundreds of Irish-American firefighters of the historically-Green FDNY. / I dunno. But I DO know, re terrorism, that it ain't so simple as: "...editorials and letters, saying essentially the same as that quote from An Phoblact, in mainstream publications...clearly have no sympathy at all for terrorism. They aren't seeking to excuse it..." No, this is a somewhat trickier question than that. The rhetorical model of "Of course I don't *condone* these actions, but I do UNDERSTAND them; we must realize there are are ROOT CAUSES here...", is often, I trust, straightforwardly & sincerely meant; but not always, I suggest. It *can* be a slippery slope, from the high moral ground of recognizing faults and mistakes in national policies, to blaming the collective victim halfway down the hill, to justifying the terror assault by the time one hits bottom. I support a united Ireland. I know there are various root causes of the Troubles in the North. But when it comes to terrorist murder, by the Continuity IRA or the Red Hand Defenders or any others of the whole bloody lot: I do not condone it and I DO *NOT* UNDERSTAND IT. And anyone can explain it to me till the cows come home: I still WILL NOT "understand" it. Fionn: good & cogent points. We also may differ on the Mideast issues; but as they say, reasonable people can disagree---and so can you & I! :) I'm soft on the unionists too. The peaceful ones. They are There; it is their land too; THEY aren't responsible for the Plantation of Ulster by their ancestors, albeit they've benefitted; they are still the majority in the six counties (which, again, THEY did not gerrymander into existence, albeit they naturally like it that way); and---they are now losing power and status. That is a serious blow to any people anywhere. They need to be accomodated. Of course they also need to be accomodate-able, to cobble an awkward nonword. *I*'d like to hope they can be treated as *adults*. But, you (& member Ireland) know better than me, far away. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 07:49 PM (#797956) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow I think it's a good principle to refuse to negotiate slippery slopes, Pooka, and stick to what people actually say rather than surmise what you think they might say but haven't said. Wait till they say it. If you are trying to anticipate people's actions, fair enough, you guess at what might lies behind their words - but if you are trying to counter their arguments, wait till they have said something that you actually want to challenge. It appears to me that the IRA have genuinely turned away from the idea of attempting to gain their goals by "military" means. Nothing I have seen in the context of this latest affair appears to indicate that to be wrong - though of course the amount of actual information that is in the public arena at this point is relatively small. But any "army", legal or not, is likely to have contingency plans for all kinds of things they have no intention of doing. I've never believed in the validity of the saying "If you want peace, prepare for war" - but that is the conventional view, and I would think it highly likely that the IRA might well accept it, in common with all the other armed organisations in Northern Ireland. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 08:17 PM (#797982) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka "... stick to what people actually say rather than surmise what you think they might say but haven't said...if you are trying to counter their arguments, wait till they have said something that you actually want to challenge." Well, Sir Kevin (I just knighted you - Order of the Bothersomely Correct), as usual your iron intellectual discipline beats me. Yer right. / I also *do* challenge *some* of "their" express indictments against my country; but I'll leave that for another day, another thread. Perhaps. I *hope* that the emergent facts will show that SF/IRA is not turning back to Physical Force as doctrine and policy. As you say, we shall see. "...any 'army', legal or not, is likely to have contingency plans for all kinds of things they have no intention of doing." Indeed. I'm sure ours over here (legal or not) does. You don't wanna know. Neither, I think, do I. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 11:20 PM (#798078) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Peter K (Fionn) McGrath, I must say I find one element of your argument more bothersome than bothersomely correct. With SF now not merely in parliament but also in government, it is ridiculous to equate the British Army with the IRA or any other paramilitary faction, as you seem to do. Whatever its past excesses, some of which I have seen, and most of which were no more or less than might have been expected from deploying soldiers in civilian communities, the British Army is accountable to an elected parliament and the IRA is not. I don't rule out that elements of the British Army might indulge in criminal behaviour, but in that event I would hope to see justice prevail, just as I am hopeful that it will belatedly prevail in relation to Bloody Sunday. Against that, there is absolutely no military action available to the IRA that is not criminal. If the IRA is maintaining itself in readiness for such criminal behaviour then that too, in my book, is criminal. To justify it by saying that the government and its security agencies are doing the same is just risible. |
|
06 Oct 02 - 11:39 PM (#798084) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland Fionn I'm sorry you get that impression but I thought I made it perfectly clear I have no time for any terrorist. They are parasite's who feed on the ignorance and fear of others. We do not need them in any shape colour or form. To bring up the whataboutery argument is an attempt to justify certain action, they done that so we done this,and then distract attention away from the issue's. If the discussion was not specifically about the SF/IRA raid I would have mentioned the actions of the loyalist/unionist side, but as it is not I see no need to. Mc G of H, this is the link to the site I got the info from, I do not hold much store in such sites, http://www.upmj.co.uk/penta.htm, notice the Pentagone graffiti and the plo/IRA mural. What the statement is saying, is simply it was America's foreign policy that brought 911 about, so it is their own fault, it also goes on to say keep it up and more will happen. As for the cease fire the IRA have broken it many times, punishment shootings prove that. You seem to give credence to some one who belongs to an illegal terrorist organisation based on if the Brits can do it so can SF/IRA. I have never once seen or heard a senior IRA member stand up in public and be as accountable to the country the same way security force members have to. Then if you are a terrorist you only have to be accountable to yourself. |
|
07 Oct 02 - 04:13 AM (#798135) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: ard mhacha The Loyalists drug thugs have been shooting and killing on a grand scale over the past few weeks and has anyone heard the Unionist politicians condemn them in the same manner as an IRA punishment shooting?, no way. And whataboutery is a bloody good cover up Ireland, in no way have the IRA from their cease-fire come close to the Loyalists drug gangs and their cut-throat thugs. Ard Mhacha. |
|
07 Oct 02 - 09:29 AM (#798266) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland Ard Mhacha, you cannot not bit a little bit wrong your either wrong or right,you admit the IRA carry out punishment shootings, who elected the IRA as the judge jury and executioner? No one and that applies to the loyalist crowd too. It is people who sit back and get involved in whataboutery that allows the situation to keep going. Try condemning both sides,for the terrorists they are. How many people have been compensated by any terrorist organisation that punished an innocent person, none. Terrorists do not need to answer to anyone other than themselves, certainly not the community they claim they are protecting. How pathetic is it to let people of the terrorist ilk to hold communities to ransom, people toe the line because they fear these thugs,they live in fear of saying the wrong thing voting for the wrong man and for not showing enough loyalty to which ever side. The fact is when people who are called onto the streets they have to go for fear of being singled out for not supporting their community. We do not need these people in any shape or form is that clear enough Ard I have no time for terrorists nor their supporters or apologists they are responsible for keeping these thugs going. So instead of whataboutery how about some condemnation on all terrorist get them off our backs we do deserve better. |
|
07 Oct 02 - 09:33 AM (#798269) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland Ard Mhacha it should be, you cannot not be bit a little bit wrong your either wrong or right,you admit the IRA carry out punishment shootings, who elected the IRA as the judge jury and executioner? No one and that applies to the loyalist crowd too. |
|
07 Oct 02 - 10:54 AM (#798303) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Big Tim On a visit to the old home in Donegal about ten years ago my mother told me "watch what you say to wee Tony [a neighbour], he's an IRA man. He could have you shot". So Tony and I just talked mostly about our common football team Celtic. The possibility of being shot for saying the "wrong" thing is "terror". After decades of private sympathy for "my people's freedom fighters" I finally realised that I had to face the fact that a terorist is a terorist, is a terrorist. |
|
07 Oct 02 - 12:00 PM (#798340) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: GUEST Ah..the poor old IRA..is somebody piking on those nice people ? |
|
07 Oct 02 - 01:24 PM (#798359) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: ard mhacha What a load of rubbish, say the wrong word and you are shot!. I live here and believe me I have said plenty and haven`t been warned yet. The Loyalists have been the greatest transgressors from the cease fire, the IRA have remained true to the cease-fire, unlike the murderers of Sunday World Journalist Martin O`Hagan, [even the dogs in the street know who murdered Martin], Soliciter Rosemary Nelson and many other innocent Catholics murdered by the Loyalists, no arrests for any of these killings and it is highly unlikely there will ever be.Ard Mhacha. |
|
07 Oct 02 - 02:03 PM (#798382) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow Here's an interesting development, no doubt with some coded significance: Northern Ireland's chief constable apologised for the manner in which Sinn Fein's Stormont office was raided last Friday. Speaking to reporters on Monday, he said the searches of Sinn Fein's office and at addresses in north and west Belfast were "essential," but he admitted there had been "errors of judgement" in how the Stormont search had been conducted. "I've looked at the film, and I think we could have done the raid itself in a more sensitive and appropriate style," he said. "But I would make the point that the need to search that office was clear in my mind as an investigator. "That had to be done. That is not the issue for me. It is the style in which we did it and I think we could have done it better." (From the BBC website. |
|
07 Oct 02 - 03:27 PM (#798431) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland Ard. I did not say that you get shot,I live here also, I went to many areas were punishment shootings were carried out.I have seen people who have spoke out left with permanent limps. I take no sides what so ever, in-fact I want an United Ireland but not at any cost. I think it is stupid being involved in a country and being unable to have any real say about our future. SF has let us down badly, sooner or later people would have seen that they are not the two headed monsters most think they are and realised they do have something to offer. Now as an ex-soldier I have to ask if the security of people like me,is taken into consideration from the view point of SF. This fiasco does not fill me with confidence that we have people willing to go forward for mutual benefit. The majority of the names on the documents were of prison officers, if you knew the amount of midnight flits I took part in, after lives were threatened you'd understand why people are worried and feel let down by SF. Not one person has condemned this from that perspective, that says to me that the worries of security force members are not worth thinking about. SF needs to make their peace in that respect and offer the real peace they talk about to all. You will never get me to argue against the condemnation of any violence linked to terrorists, it's wrong unproductive and keeps us apart, so they are doing us no favours. |
|
07 Oct 02 - 03:47 PM (#798444) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland What more do we want MC G of H, a Chief Constable willing to say we got it wrong, now lets hear SF say they got it wrong, and assure the prison officers they are under no threat. Consider the worries of the prison officers for the safety of their family and themselves, this proves that the information obtained would be of use to terrorists. Here's how this information would be used, one of the IRA prisoners would walk up to a prison officer and tell him his address, telephone number and ask how his children are, (usually by name),that is terrorism at it's best. Making people live in fear for their family and self security. |
|
07 Oct 02 - 04:18 PM (#798461) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow Please don't misunderstand where I'm arguing from here, Ireland. I heartily wish that there weren't any breaches of the ceasefire, and deplore punishment beatings and all that crap. I also think that gathering the kind of information that would be useful for terrorist actions but would not be useful for political purposes of one sort or another is a serious mistake. And I think that using violent methods is totally counterproductive and has been disastrous. As the saying goes "It's worse than a crime, it's a mistake."
However I am also suspicious that more is going here than we are being told about, and that the picture which is being presented may be defective in various ways.
I think, for example, that the raids may well have intentionally been carried out in the way which the Chief Constable has said he regrets, with the object of causing maximum damage. And in the light of the apology the implication of that would be that this was not the intention of the Chief Constable, and there are elements within the police force which are acting on their own agenda, with the intention of sabotaging the Good Friday Agreement.
And there may well be elements within the IRA which have a similar goal.
I wouldn't trust anyone further than I could throw them, on either side. But the fact that you can't trust people doesn't mean you don't have to work together. |
|
07 Oct 02 - 04:34 PM (#798469) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Big Tim The fact that he could have had anyone shot was the scary thing: not my personal situation, I never was under threat, we were more worried about Rangers winning the league every year, but the idea that someone willing to pick up a gun could impose himself, and his cause, on the community was a reality check for me. No way to organise a society. |
|
07 Oct 02 - 05:47 PM (#798489) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland What are the police to do,they know the antics of SF, if two officers went in would they have been able to carry out the search without any hindrance. No matter what the point is a serious issue has been raised,in such a way that it cannot be swept under the carpet by spin doctors. If such actions lead to the end of the GFA it is not the fault of those who try to keep the law. Has SF/IRA offered any assurances to the prison officers that they will not be targeted? It is very serious threat to have your details on a terrorists list, SF should be doing every thing in it's power to reassure the families of these officers, they are going through a terror process now, instigated by SF/IRA .That's one of the real consequences of the intelligence gathering by terrorists and the issue is being skirted around. I agree with Big Tim, and think that is the only context that this should be looked at. One point though the problem of the policing issue lies squarely on the shoulders of those who advised Catholic's not to join the police, people like Hume, priest's, SF and of course the threat of death by the IRA. Otherwise we would have had the 50/50 force everyone wants. |
|
07 Oct 02 - 06:58 PM (#798515) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow I imagine the Chief Constable would have his own ideas as to how it should have been done, if he thinks the way it was done was a mistake. I'd not be the least surprised to turn on the telly and see that the IRA had issued a statement saying that no prison officers will be targetted and so forth. After all, that's part of the ceasefire they are pledged to uphold. But what would astonish me would be if it really reassured anyone too much. Even if it was absolutely genuine, it'd be an empty gesture - which isn't to say it wouldn't be a good idea. |
|
08 Oct 02 - 01:40 AM (#798688) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka Well, for what (if anything) it's worth --- and not to further rile you up, member Ireland; of course it's rhetoric & propoganda; -- here is what SF says on their website. (McGrath, they don't sound very conciliated by the Chief Constable's 'stylistic' second-thoughts.) 7th October 2002 Commenting on PSNI Chief Constable Hugh Orde's defence of the bogus raid by the PSNI on the Assembly, North Belfast Sinn Féin MLA Gerry Kelly said: ``This was a bogus raid. Its aim was to veil a direct political intervention by the PSNI. It proved to be a thin and wholly transparent veil. ``It was a political theatre. Two disks were scooped at random, from dozens of disks to provide pretence of a raid, to provide a spurious justification. ``It has rebounded. ``Hugh Orde's weasel words about the manner in which this was done cut no ice. The PSNI, like the RUC, is operating to a unionist agenda. ``Huge Orde, like his predecessors will defend the PSNI - right or wrong. That is the inevitable corruption of the head of a police force, which continues to have a political agenda. This is one reason why the PSNI remains unacceptable.'' 7th October 2002 Sinn Féin TD for Dublin South Central Aengus Ó Snodaigh has described the PSNI raid on the party's Stormont offices as `outrageous' and `part of a broader anti-peace process, anti-Agreement agenda.' Deputy Ó Snodaigh was speaking at a protest organised in support of the Good Friday Agreement , which took place at the GPO in Dublin this evening. Deputy Ó Snodaigh said: ``Today's protest has been organised to demonstrate our anger and concern at the politically motivated raid on Sinn Féin's offices at Stormont and the arrests in Belfast. It will not be lost in Belfast and beyond that these raids and arrests fit neatly into the anti-Agreement agenda laid out by David Trimble and the UUP two weeks ago. ``We are here today to say that the Good Friday Agreement is an all-Ireland Agreement. The peace process is an all Ireland concern And Sinn Féin for our part will not be diverted from the task at hand, that is the full implementation of the Agreement. ``We are calling on all those who support the Good Friday Agreement, particularly the Irish government, to ensure that the UUPs wreckers charter and British dirty tricks do not succeed in undermining the Good Friday Agreement.'' Sinn Féin Press Office, 44 Parnell Square, Dublin 1 Tel: +353-1-8726100 and +353-1-8726839 · Fax +353-1-8733074 E-mail: sinnfein@irlnet.com · Website: http://sinnfein.ie |
|
08 Oct 02 - 05:28 AM (#798775) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: ard mhacha So Ireland is a soldier, he could then enlighten us all on the collusion between the Ruc and the British Army with his allies in the Loyalists murder gangs. It is a fact, that from the beginning of the troubles, the so-called Security Forces have been handing out information on Nationalists, resulting in the death of numerous innocents, so you cannot blame Sinn Fein for covering their back. And Tim me boy, you can also have your throat cut in Glasgow if you have the misfortune to be wearing a Celtic scarf, one of your Rangers friends is doing time for this deed, not forgetting the two Scots who received a long prison sentence last week for supplying their Loyalists friends in the sick six with Arms, Semtex etc. For the benefit of our US friends let me remind them that Scotland is known here as the hidey-hole for murdering Loyalists thugs, on the run at the moment in the land of the thistle is a suspect in the Martin O`Hagan murder being shielded by his Scottish friends. And from to-days Irish News we read that the moderate SDLP politican Alban Maginness has said that Unionists politicians of "ignoring Loyalist violence, stating that "their blindness on this issuse is reprehensible". And Hugh Orde gave us all a laugh by apologising, God help us, wonders will never cease. Ard Mhacha. |
|
08 Oct 02 - 05:54 AM (#798783) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Teribus From "Advice To Tourists in Scotland" Visitors to Glasgow: Glasgow Celtic Football Club is one of Scotland's better known sides with a long and enviable history. They are distinguished by their famous green and white hooped strip. They are known as "The 'Gers", after founder member Gerry Mallone, the first man to introduce citrus fruit to Scotland. On entering a public house where the famous colours are in a predominance, the visitor is advised to declare loudly and clearly, "Up the 'Gers, I'm proud to be an Orangeman" You are guaranteed of receiving an extremely warm reception. Oh! and Ard Mhacha, the statistics of the last thirty years puts the responsibility for the vast majority of the three thousand odd deaths and thousands of injuries firmly at the door of the Nationalist paramilitaries. The recent apology from the PIRA regarding the Black Friday bombings covered the day when 24 bombs were placed indiscriminately in Belfast's crowded shopping areas, while you are asking fellow Mudcatter Ireland for enlightenment, maybe he can tell you, as a soldier, how the butchers bill for that day was limited to five civilians and two security forces personnel - hint - it had nothing whatsoever to do with any desire or intention on the part of the PIRA to limit "innocent" civilian casualties. |
|
08 Oct 02 - 06:16 AM (#798789) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow A ceasefire here might be a good idea. I don't mean avoiding talking about divisive issues, but maybe the idea should be to get a better understanding of why it is other people might see things differently, and vice versa, not getting into verbal fist-fights.
There's a piece in today's Guardian by Jonathan Freedland that I think deserves reading. It tries to tease out the issues involved, and here's a taster:
"Leaders on all sides are predicting the imminent suspension of the self-government they established in 1998 - with perhaps no way back. Their accounts of how they got here differ entirely; and it is into the gap between them that all the valuable, even heroic work of the last four years could fall. The tragedy of it is that gap is not nearly as wide as it looks." |
|
08 Oct 02 - 07:13 AM (#798803) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland Mc G of H you've done it now, how could ye, I have to agree, I know I disagree with you and to show my perspective on N.I. is not from the usual loyalist bashing the catholics crap I have no qualms in saying I was a soldier, but that seems to be a problem to some. |
|
08 Oct 02 - 10:39 AM (#798903) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Big Tim My best friend was indeed a Rangers supporter. Also a more tolerant, non-bigoted person you couldn't wish to meet. He just happened to have been born into a Protestant family in a working class area of Glasgow. I respected his tradition and he respected mine. If more people in NI could do that, begin to put the past behind them, not forget it - that's impossible, but to look to the future, for the sake of coming generations, then there would be some hope. Constantly blaming and demonising the other side only prolongs the agony. It will prevent NI society from ever getting out of the mess that it is in. That's supposed to be an important part of the GFA: mutual tolerance and respect for cultural diverstity. The ideal would be for the Prods to start going to GAA games and for Catholics to applaud Orange walks. In the meantime some smaller steps can be taken: like taking religion out of the schools, no prayers, no nothing, strictly secular, with all kids in together to let them see that "them over there" are just human beings like themselves not the demons of the other side's propaganda. If parents want their kids to be religious, teach them themselves, it should be a private matter, leave the State out of it. Unfortunately the hardliners on both sides, blue and green, don't want to even begin to know about coming together and cultural diversity - for them it's all or nothing, no surrender. |
|
08 Oct 02 - 11:53 AM (#798948) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Coyote Breath Hmmm, very interesting developments since I last posted. Ireland is an ex soldier? Big Tim was told he could be shot if he wasn't careful? Hmmmmm. Next I'll find out that Pooka belongs to the INLA and McGrath of Harlow is a Labour MP. Hey! this is a great thread! and a "tiochfaidh ar la" to ard mhacha! CB |
|
08 Oct 02 - 12:45 PM (#798986) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: GUEST Could be wrong, but I have yet to see the Donegal Celtic man EVER being neutral, all of his replies seem to be a constant carp about anything Nationalist and surely anyone with an iota of sense couldn`t stand at a Celtic v Rangers game and listen to the torrent of secterian abuse from the fanatics. And Teribus were you in Dublin, Monaghan, McGurks Bar,Derry etc, all Security Forces involvement, the dirty-tricks brigade in the British Army weren`t behind the door when it came to carnage. |
|
08 Oct 02 - 12:50 PM (#798990) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha That last reply was mine, Ard Mhacha. |
|
08 Oct 02 - 02:44 PM (#799041) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka CB - Bedam'. Busted. / Nonono just kidding. Actually I'm with the Peep-of-Day Boys. :) Of course Over Here I was a Symbionese Liberation Army man; but then Patty Hearst spurned my advances. Ah weel. / Hey, *I'd* vote fer McGrath. Any party, or none. "I can run on a laundry ticket and beat these political bums." - NYC Mayor Fiorello H. LaGuardia, 1930's McGrath & Big Tim, thanks. Yes, let us decommission the rhetorical bombshells. To Ireland; and, to Ireland: Tolling for the warriors whose strength is not to fight, For the broken-hearted refugees on the unarmed road of flight, And for each and every underdog soldier in the night, We gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing. - Dylan |
|
08 Oct 02 - 03:34 PM (#799068) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Big Tim Ard, you ould bugger, you have a cheek to talk about not being neutral! What it's worth in the context of this discussion, if anything, did you know that the murdered 16 -year-old Celtic supporter that you mentioned was a Protestant? How sadly ironic can this craziness get? |
|
09 Oct 02 - 05:58 AM (#799353) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow Another article,"The securocrats' revenge", this time from today's Guardian, by a former editor of the Daily Mirror who writes regularlynon media spin and that. It takes a very sceptical view indeed of the whole affair:
"This case...also supports those who believe that the security forces, rather than the government, direct what happens. The government is more or less bound by their advice and, most importantly, by their control of operational matters in which they can manufacture "events" to suit their political aim...
"...It is frightening to realise that the only people smiling now are the dissident IRA members who refused to follow Sinn Fein down the political road." |
|
09 Oct 02 - 06:00 AM (#799354) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow Here's the link to that article in today's Guardian. |
|
09 Oct 02 - 07:04 AM (#799361) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Peter K (Fionn) Ard Mhacha, I couldn't argue with what you say about Rosemary Nelson and the near silence on the scale of loyalist violence since the GF agreement cameinto effect. But sweepinig generalisations such as your comments about Scotland and Rangers fans, and the impression you give that it's always the other side that's at fault is precidsely the mindset that is thwarting reconciliation. One of IReland's comments about who knows what reminded me that in East Germany the Stasi aprently all became taxi drivers when the wall came down. You just give them your name, and they know where you live. Teribus: LOL re Gerry Mallone. |
|
09 Oct 02 - 10:10 AM (#799437) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland The defence that some put across about the intelligence gathering, such as what governments do not collect intelligence, so basically why worry about SF attempts. Can that same reasoning not be applied to the so called collusion between Army and loyalists, what country would not use such subterfuge to fight an enemy? But this is not a defence for such actions just as it is not for SF intelligence gathering. I will be the first to condemn such actions,when are the members of SF going to condemn the actions of their members when they are in the wrong,that's the difference I suppose. The Chief Constable has acknowledged that the matter could have been handled better, SF has not said we should not have the names and addresses of prison officers and army personnel and gathering such information is not keeping within the spirit of the GFA. It is an arrogance that sits uneasy with many people in Ireland north and south. I would like to see an united Ireland, one of the reasons being SF would be voted out of government, as there are no Irish prime ministers willing to have them, why because they have a private army, if that is a valid reason for Irish politicians why not for N.I. politicians? An united Ireland will see through all the crap and an end to the cry of discrimination by SF. In other words if it were not for the situation in N.I. SF would not last in a normal democratic government. If you want Ard I could go into the terrorist attacks but what good would that do? None. We cannot keep harping on about past atrocities carried out by both sides how do we go forward if people keep bringing up the past. To put such attacks on a he did it first basis is nothing more than childish. The real counter argument to the intelligence gathering is based on the activities of unionist politicians who leak N.I.O. documents. But that does not allay the fears of those whose details are in the hands of terrorists, or do we not consider them? Rather than trying to justify the actions based on past events which were justified by those who carried out the attacks as a retaliation to a previous attack, such as the shooting of an innocent man by the loyalists as a "measured response" to republican activities at that time. So bringing up past atrocities is just what it is bringing up the past and that gets us nowhere fast. |
|
09 Oct 02 - 10:38 AM (#799459) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Jimmy C Ireland - you refer to Sinn Fein having their own oprivate army ?, Do you really believe that the Unionists parties are not connected to the U.V.F, the U.D.A. etc. Surely your are not too blind to see that every act of terror committed by loyalists paramilitaries does not have the support of many unionist politicians, they don't come out and admit it but they support the loyalist squads, have no doubt about that. All parties collect information , I guarantee the Loyalists squads are gathering it as well. All this scare mongering is an attempt to bring down the power sharing assembly for one reason and for one reason only - Unionists don't want it to succeed, because once the population see this arrangement working to the good of ALL the people, many middle of the road loyalists will start voting for candidates on their achievements and not because of their religion. Everything directed against SinnFein/I.R.A. are all allegations. If the authorities had any concrete evidence someone would be charged, they have failed to charge anyone which shows their evidence is very flimsy at best. They are on the run and will resort to any sort of underhanded dirty tricks to stave off the inevitable, aided no doubt by some inside british intelligence operators. |
|
09 Oct 02 - 01:13 PM (#799588) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: GUEST Aye Jimmy good on you, and speaking about informationon, every Catholic/Nationalist in the wee six has been scrutinised and tucked away and any Soldier, Ruc/PISSNI will have all of this info to hand and of course passed it on from the beginning of the troubles to their relatives in the various Loyalists assination squads. Collusion was very evident in the Pat Finucane murder and Fionn the Rosemary Nelson murder was a state murder, the RUC had told her that she was on the list. And in answer to the Donegal Ranger, yes, it`s a well known fact that most of the Celtic support comes from the local Glasgow Prods, aye and Paisley is Chairman of the Celtic supporters club in Ballymena, do me a favour "Scotland is rife with sectarianism", not my words but a quote from a Mr McMillan who was the Leader of the Scottish Symphony Orchestra, and he is certainly not your militant claymore wielding jock. Ard Mhacha. |
|
09 Oct 02 - 01:22 PM (#799598) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow I'm with Ireland on the point that it's no good using past atrocities as justification of counter atricities. That way they never end. (And the horrible example of what's happening in the Holy Land comes to mind - every cruel and vicious act on either side is presented as being a justified retaliation, and serves at a provocation for the next round.) But I don't see information gathering, even espionage, as the same kind of thing as a breaking of the ceasefire. Nobody sees that kind of thing carried out by governments as being an act of war in itself. Nobody doubts that the British authoirities are busily gathering information which would be highly useful if the war started again - but, quite rightly, that is not seen as a breach of the ceasefire, or as an indication that the British Government is planning to restart the war. All the evidence is that the security people knew about this a long time ago, and have chosen to bring it in to the open at this time for reasons best known to themselves. The bottom line is that the paramilitary organisation in Northern Ireland which is most effectively sticking to the ceasefire is the IRA. |
|
09 Oct 02 - 03:04 PM (#799689) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Big Tim Here's some verses I wrote that express my feelings on the Irish Question better than any amount of prose that I might muster. COME ULSTER. Tune = Danny Boy Some day to walk in peace though Ulster valleys, That Red Hand land where once lived Danny Boy, But Omagh Town and round by Ballynoney, Are names of shame that once were pride and joy Too many tears and years of blood and blunder, For flag of green and streets red, white and blue, Too long we've seen our people torn asunder, Tear down these walls instead and start anew Chorus Come Ulster north, south, east and west together, Through Antrim, Down, Fermanagh and Tyrone, Through Armagh too, then view the Walls of Derry, Together side by side and no more walk alone Leave ancient days, and ancient ways, forever, Within the rage and page of history, With heart and hand, come Ulster stand together, Come Ulster, build a new society And let us walk in peace through Ulster valleys, That Red Hand land where once lived Danny Boy, Let Omagh Town and round by Ballymoney, Again resound in peace and pride and joy. |
|
09 Oct 02 - 03:58 PM (#799737) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: GUEST "The bottom line is that the paramilitary organisation which is most effictively sticking to the ceasefire is the IRA", done and dusted by McGrath. Ard Mhacha. |
|
09 Oct 02 - 05:28 PM (#799807) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow Well, you leave out three of Ulster's counties, Tim, but it's a good song anyway. |
|
09 Oct 02 - 06:46 PM (#799862) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland "The bottom line is that the paramilitary organisation which is most effictively sticking to the ceasefire is the IRA", done and dusted by McGrath. Ard Mhacha. Ever heard off "I'll not do it any more but I'll not do it any less" that's what is going on here. The IRA are terrorists and to condone them have information that endangers peoples lives or as a source of terrorising people is reprehensible. To do so under the guise of they do so can we is moronic. The message that SF/IRA should get from all right thinking people is simple, terrorists of any creed colour or nationality have no place in the civilised world. John Hume and Trimble did not get into government by use of the armalite and ballot box, they did not command terrorist units that has blasted people of the face of the earth. SF has let us down badly. I agree with Mc G of H (your doing it to me again Mc G)the GFA should be kept going, but not at the expense of putting peoples lives at risk. People who have kept the terrorists from both sides completely tearing N.I. apart. What support do they get none, we have personal details in the hands of murdering terrorists and that fact has been totally glossed over, and we are trying to make some sort of lasting peace in this country with this and other bs going on from both sides. Do people stop to think it is this excuse making from both sides that keeps the pot simmering, we really need to wise up and condemn all terrorists for what they are parasites on peace loving people who should go away and let us get on with life. |
|
09 Oct 02 - 08:26 PM (#799970) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow I keep on finding myself reading GFA as the initials of some breakaway from the GAA calling itself the Gaelic Football Association. I always do that kind of thing with acronyms. But back in the grim real world again. The actual facts in this are still unclear, and there's going to be investigations and court hearings about it. That provides an opportunity to cool things and get back to business. Using all this as an occasion for political manoeuvring and posturing seems to me grossly irresponsible. Irresponsibility is what it's all about really - the failure of a number of people on both sides to accept and live up to their responsibility to recognise that the Good Friday Agreement has to be made to work, and to do what is needed to make it work. "The best is enemy of the good"; "Striving to better oft we mar what's well"; "If you keep on picking it, it'll never get better". |
|
09 Oct 02 - 10:27 PM (#800050) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Den So we're all still under the illusion that Unionists want power sharing to work. Does this taxi go all the way down the garden path?Just let me out here, all the best, your mad, your mad, your face is red the eyes are standin' in yer head, go home yer ma's got oranges for ye. |
|
10 Oct 02 - 01:15 AM (#800117) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Coyote Breath Well it seems to me that the IRA could disband and Sinn Fein could all resign and their offices hold a rummage sale and all the Catholics in the "wee six" could move South and Paisley STILL wouldn't want to share power! With anyone! Well maybe with Johnny Adair, but only on every other Monday. No matter what the Nationalist "side" does it will not satisfy the Loyalist fanatics. I look at that octogenarian visage, spewing hatred and venom and wonder how could God allow him to lead the worshipful in prayer and it then strikes me what a truly forgiving God He is. "Gerry Adams colors his hair!!! Lets scrap the GFA!!! Yikes! CB |
|
10 Oct 02 - 06:02 AM (#800194) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Teribus "17 February 2002: Irish premier Bertie Ahern rules out a coalition with Sinn Fein should the party do well at the coming Irish general election. "In our constitution there can only be adherence to one police force, one army. Until Sinn Fein make their position unambiguously clear, then that is not possible, and that is not going to be possible for some time." What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the Gander. I would have thought that it was the responsibility of elected representatives, in any political arena, to represent the views and aspirations of their constituents - not bat the interests of the paramilitary armies standing at their backs in the shadows. The people of Northern Ireland through their elected representatives have been given a framework in which to work. The problems and lack of trust on both sides were known factors from the outset. They've had four years of stumbling about from one suspension to the next. High time they got down to the task in hand and started solving problems instead of creating them, this process will require compromise by both sides - to date the willingness to compromise seems to have come mainly from one side. "The bottom line is that the paramilitary organisation which is most effictively sticking to the ceasefire is the IRA", done and dusted by McGrath. Ard Mhacha." That is Kevin at his selective best. I note that in the posts above when reference is made to the activity of Loyalist groups - they are all lumped together. Going back to our goose and gander saying, if you apply the same to Nationalist groups, the picture isn't so rosey. |
|
10 Oct 02 - 09:01 AM (#800272) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Big Tim OULD IRELAND'S LAMENT, words by Big Tim, written this morning, tune "Men of the West", etc It's the year three thousand and forty, the Ould Belgian Empire is gone, But the Troubles in Ould Northern Ireland are of course still rumbling on, A bomb goes off in the Bogside, a Catholic's found dead in a field, And Ould Ireland still shouts from the sidelines "our brave boys they never will yield" "Forget not the Boys of Kilmichael, forget not Prosisional Dail, Forget not the Battle of Antrim, nor the Border that runs through the Foyle, Forget not the Walls of Ould derry, forget not the Dolly's Brae fight, To Ould Ireland just you pay attention, you know it's the cause of The Right" Ould Ireland shouts "lop of the 'London', give us back 'Doire' instead, Forget about peace and employment, we much prefer living in dread, In a wasteland that's governed by gangsters, like Bould Ould Johnny Adair, Ould Ireland says, "long may they flourish, we prefer them to your Tony Blair" It's now four thousand and forty, a new Belfast Agreement's in place, But Ould Ireland is still loudly screaming "it's all just a bloody disgrace- We Catholics demand compensation, our fair share of Ould British Coin, For Famine and Ulster Plantation, for Aughrim and Ould Bloody Boyne" It's now five thousand and forty, Ould Ireland wants new RUC, And hoary Ould Isaac McKittrick, is still in his tent at Drumcree, "We've been at it now many long centuries, since before Ould Cromwell was born, And we'll keep knocking lumps off each other, til Ould Gabriel blows his Ould Horn". |
|
10 Oct 02 - 09:04 AM (#800273) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland Your at it again Mc G of H, your right on the irresponsibility point, we need SF to stand against the likes of Paisley. Remember when he got heaps of people to go to some hill and wave their shot gun licences at each other, we need saved from him. I thought it was funny! BTW CB I could not defend the Rev if my life depended on it,he has been the main wooden spoon in N.I. politics for his own benefit. Trimble has put himself on the line he can only go so far and take so much and it looks as though the SF intelligence gathering has done his position no favours. So if the GFA is as important to SF as they say it is they have to start working with Trimble and other pro GFA unionist. As I have said they have a lot to offer but unfortunately not at the price of security and peace of mind. Teribus has a valid point we lump loyalist terrorists as one unit, and leave people to pick and choose between republican/nationalist terrorists. No one will ever convince me that there are no common links between the Real IRA and the IRA and all the other spin offs. So when people moan about not mentioning loyalist terrorists they do the same themselves by letting IRA spin offs of the hook. He also makes the point which many conveniently over look no one in the republic of Ireland want SF with their present ties to the IRA, are they seen as anti GFA, or people who see it as it is. Some forget an overwhelming number of people or so called unionists voted for the GFA, so for them to want it disbanded is not a lightly taken decision. They have been let down by SF considering they voted to let them into government and noe the anti GFA people can sit back and say I told you so. Who is responsible for this certainly not the unionists who voted for the GFA nor the anti GFA unionists who if we believe was behind the raid, done nothing more than prove their mistrust in SF was right. And people try to hold them up as the group in the wrong, see it as it is SF caught with their hands in the cookie jar. |
|
10 Oct 02 - 09:26 AM (#800284) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka McGrath - "Well, you leave out three of Ulster's counties, Tim, but it's a good song anyway." Well, Tim leaves 'em out because so did the Treaty. Had Lloyd George carved the Partition so as to take the whole Province, there'd be a united Ireland by now. (I.M. always-H.O. :) But that was the point, wasn't it? "It's all just a question of slicing the salami." - a New York redistricting expert. Sincerely, U.S. Senator Elbridge Gerry, Rhode Island (patron saint of the Gerrymander) PS - It's a great song, Big Tim. Both of 'em. -Pook |
|
10 Oct 02 - 10:26 AM (#800329) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow Ulster as such doesn't get a mention in the Treaty that I ever heard of. Northern Ireland does, but that's not exactly the same thing. I remember one time Bernadette McAliskey (Devlin as was) wrote an article suggesting that an independent united Ulster wouldn't be a bad idea, and that makes a bit of sense. You'd think that would be what anyone calling themselves "Ulster Unionista" might want as well. |
|
10 Oct 02 - 10:45 AM (#800339) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Fiolar McGrath: Do you honestly think for one moment that the Unionists want a "really" independent state of Nothern Ireland (or whatever they might want to call it.) If independent of Mother England think of all that lovely money no longer flowing into the pockets of the residents. No! in my humble opinion, they want the "good old days" of Brookeborough when the "croppies" knew their place and there was no such thing as power-sharing or other new fangled ideas. On the other hand perhaps if was thrown out of the UK, they might finally face up to the realities of the 21st century. |
|
10 Oct 02 - 10:53 AM (#800345) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Wolfgang When I open my dictionary, I read that 'Ulster' has three meanings, a Kingdom of bygone days, a province of nine counties, and another name for a part of Britain consisting of six counties. That a word has more than one meaning is so common that we learn from very young to understand which meaning was meant from the context. To 'correct' one meaning by another in a completely clear context does not help a discussion. Wolfgang |
|
10 Oct 02 - 11:51 AM (#800394) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Big Tim As a Cultural Catholic/Cultural Nationalist native of Ulster but not of NI (ie -Donegal), and having a modicom of knowledge of Irish history,I could hardly forget about the other three counties. Apart from me not being an irredentist, "Ulster" scanned better than "Northern Ireland". Well the Assembly looks set for the chop next Tueesday. |
|
10 Oct 02 - 01:12 PM (#800454) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Jimmy C Ireland - In your last post you said that "So if the GFA is as important to SF as they say it is they have to start working with Trimble and other pro GFA unionist." I suppose that is why The S.F. mayor Alex Maskey is inundated with offers from unionists to serve as Deputy Minister ?. S.F. as pointed out by otrhers is the only party that has been bending over bacjkwards to make the GFA work. They have been stymied time and again by allegationss and dirty politics from all unionist parties (including Trimble). You are right when you say they(S.F) have a lot to offer, but don't you think as democratically elected representatives ( they are the largest nationalist party by the way). they should have had more acceptance from all parties. The bottom line is that many Unionists politicians do not want the GFA to work, period. They somehow feel that if they can bring down the power sharing executive things will magically resort to what they have had since the so-called protestant state for a protestant people was set up. That is not going to happen - period. The I.R.A. has adhered to cessation in the face of amost daily occurances aimed at making them break. Do you really think the I.R.A. will give up the weapons and disband and leave the way clear for gangs of armed loyalist bigots to come into catholic districts to engage in murder and mayhem. knowing that they will for the most part get away with it as they have done in the past, the same way that Police Sergeant Dixon and his cohorts in the Cromwell clubs did in the 1920's and 30's. Sinn Fein are here to stay - live with it. |
|
10 Oct 02 - 03:09 PM (#800534) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland Well said Jimmy, SF are here to stay and they have the IRA and other spin off terrorists to keep them here. I do not fault any unionist politician for not wanting to be deputy to a Mayor who belongs to a political party with a private army. To make matters worse if such posts were filled it would send the message that it does not matter. Your going on about anti GFA unionists, if they were that anti the GFA would not have gotten off the ground. As you seem to be pro SF follow Adams example and look to the future, the spectre of the past can be used by both sides as the bogey man under the bed. What I have noticed though you do want it both ways you cannot ride two horses at once, look forward while bringing up the past. Jimmy do you object to the Irish prime minister who wants nothing to do with SF with its private army? Why should we, we have to because of the threat of that private army. Is that the basis for a lasting peace, clearly not look at the trouble we are in now. |
|
10 Oct 02 - 03:20 PM (#800546) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland The notion of an independent N.I. was put forward on the same lines as the channel Islands, with the tax advantages that they enjoy. This would make N.I. a wealthy place. Many people were touted for the new leader of such a N.I. the rev.Ian was among them so I think the ties with mother England would be cut so fast it would make your head spin. Until money was needed that is. |
|
10 Oct 02 - 03:22 PM (#800549) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Jimmy C Ireland, I agree that for the IRA to disarm would be great, but they are not the only private army in Ireland. The U.V.F. / U.D.A./ U.F.F/ and the P.S.N.I. are just as armed. Sinn Fein are the political wing of the I.R.A. The D.U.P. and all other unionists parties are the political wing of these organizations as well they just don't have the guts to come out and admit it. The only reason the GFA got off the ground was because the unionist parties could not prevent it. The shrinking loyalist population and the growing nationalist population was the real reason - not by any goodwill on behalf of unionists. They could not stop this nationalist train, all they can do is throw things on the track, they may delay the inevitable for a spell, but the train will reach it's final destination someday, and all the Trimbles, Paisleys, Donaldsons in the world wont prevent it, so they better get on board while there is still time, if they insist on standing on the tracks they will get run over. |
|
10 Oct 02 - 05:11 PM (#800617) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland Your having a laugh Jimmy C, when we hear that old rhetoric day in day out on the news, why do you feel the need to actually post it? Incase you have not noticed I do not mind if we become a united Ireland, providing it is democratically and legally obtained. And when we have a united Ireland SF/IRA will be no longer. But one word of warning, SF/IRA has said it will not stop at a united Ireland they want to govern it. Will they be prepared to use their private army to achieve this,most likely as they done it in the past. You do know what Sinn Fein means, that usually denotes the aim of the political party. In your defense of SF/IRA, are you saying they were right in carrying out their terrorist campaign? |
|
10 Oct 02 - 05:58 PM (#800650) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Jimmy C They can not govern it unless the people vote for them. If that happens then that is democracy. If the majority elect a communist government - that also is democracy. The I.R.A. have as much right to fight against an evil corrupt regime just as much as anybody else. If the loyalists can use guns to keep the system in place then the I.R.A. has the right to use guns to change it. Remember, the state was set up because Carson etc threatened violence. The country was divided because Churchill threatened Collins, and Griffiths with war if they did not sign. Yes they do have the right, just as much as the early colonists had the right to take up arms., just as much as any other oppressed people and believe me, the nationalists in the north were oppressed, the government was against them, the police and the b-specials were against them, the whole system that allowed them to be discrimated against in jobs and housing by it's inaction was against them. I imagine you live in the north, can you really say that they were not discriminated against , by Brookeborough who openly declared that he would not have one about his place, by the orange unions in the shipyards, aircraft fcatory, ropeworks, ?. I know that a few catholics were employed in these places but they were very few, believe me. Even the Ormeua Bakery had a sign at their entrance that NO Catholics Need Apply. In Derry city with a massive majotiry of catholics but with an orange city council. You are damn right they have the right. Waiting for the day that the orange order and their cronies in previous governments would have changed things for the betterment of catholics is like waiting for hell to freeze over. |
|
10 Oct 02 - 06:18 PM (#800665) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland I will not argue on the points you raised, that was a shameful period in the history of Ireland. I will argue that you see murdering thugs as some sort of legitimate answer to the tubes that ran this country. My grandfather left his workplace because of such signs,he had no time for such bigotry and that is a principle instilled in me, I have no time for bigotry and those who as you have done justified the use of it. Keeping to the old rhetoric is just that keeping to the old past spent reasons not a good way to go forward. I have not got involved in the specific atrocities of the IRA and their ilk for one simple reason it dregs up the past and gives life to the whataboutery which is a counter productive exercise. Sad to know you try to explain away Omagh and such attacks in the manner you do. |
|
10 Oct 02 - 10:48 PM (#800807) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Jimmy C Ireland - I am not explaining away Omagh - that was the work of the Real I/R.A. Sinn Fein are not the political wing of the Real I.R,A, nor the Dissident >I.R.A. or any other splinter group by whatever name. You can't put the Omagh tragedy at the feet of Sinn Fein anymore than we can put the atrocities carried out by U.D.A. at the feet of the U.V.F. or any other loyalist group. You are trying to give the impression that the I.R.A. have been armed and waiting for years and years for a chance to cause mayhem,when that is so far from the truth. I was born and bred in North Belfast, the area most affected by the troubles. Up until 1967 I would not have known how to go about joining the I.R.A. in my area, simply because they did not exist. The I.R.A. were this group of old men somewhere down south who sat around drinking and discussing the old times. When the troubles started, the nationalist people of Belfast, Derry, South Armagh and other places had to look somewhere for protection. The government institutions and police were not going to protect them, the British Army showed their true intentions shortly after arriving, so they were of no help. The nationalist had only one avenue open and that was to go to whatever was left of the old I.R.A. for help. They were not in a position to help much either because they were themselves a very small entity, more of a laughing stock than anything else but they were willing to do something but they needed members. So the young men and women joined the ONLY group that were willing to protect the nationalist areas, and that group was the I.R.A. If the current I.R.A. and their Political wing Sinn Fein are such a force in Politics in the six counties, don't blame them, Blame the Institutions, blame the police and blame the British Army for making it necessary for the I.R.A. to be rejuvenated to protect the nationalist communities. Communities that should have been given the security they required from the same institutions, police and british army. The system created the "monster" now let them live with it. This is my last post in this thread, now lets get back to music. Ireland - thanks for the argument, it always helps to clear the air, Good luck to you. |
|
11 Oct 02 - 02:24 AM (#800879) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka And isn't that why it became the *Provisional* IRA? - beginning as a spinoff or splinter group in its own time, splitting off from those somewhere-down-south boys of the old brigade? / Speaking of which, I second the "now let's get back to music" motion; and accordingly, inspired by the above thought "Blame the Institutions, blame the police and blame the British Army" - Captain Healey went away and his wife got in the family way And the only words that she could say was "Blame the British Army" Too ra loo ra loo ra loo, I've made me mind up what to do I'm working my ticket home to you, and lave the British Army. (No offense meant, Ireland. Old barracks song, the blurb I found said. Granted, the Wolfetones did record it -- before they were Decommissioned -- but then, they didn't use the verb-form "lave". :) |
|
11 Oct 02 - 07:59 AM (#800953) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland I do not want to continue either Jimmy C but I do not buy into your version of the last decades and who caused the pain. I'll be charitable and say although misguided a lot of people done what they felt was the right thing to do, and obviously some were wrong. But what is definitely wrong SF will not ask for people to come forward with information about such actions as the Omagh bomb to the police north or south. And these people want to represent all communities. Pooka I took no offence from your barracks song or any of the lyrics you posted, I liked the one you put to the sash in a different thread, but I cannot find it. |
|
11 Oct 02 - 09:24 AM (#800999) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: McGrath of Harlow And here's a link to a peace song I wrote when the ceasefire was new - White Snow of the Springtime. The Thirty Years I see as a tragic detour, but perhaps they were inevitable. Giving the legacy of those years the power to destroy what's been gained in the last few years would be terrible. Here's an article from today's Guardian by a Unionist politician who supports the Good Friday Agreement, who is clearly feeling that way, and is clearly critical of his party's present position: The irony of this for unionists is that, just as 30 years of IRA violence was effective in preventing any political settlement developing, now the unwillingness of republicans to divest themselves of the threat of violence is having a similar effect - and by reacting in such a predictable and Pavlovian manner, unionism is again allowing republicans to dictate the future for Northern Ireland. |
|
11 Oct 02 - 09:35 AM (#801010) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: The Pooka Thank you Ireland. / You may mean this one ("I bade my heart make these poor rhymes..." - Yeats): Haul down the ladder and roll up the rope Enough with King Billy and likewise the Pope Up the Orange, the Green, and the Red White and Blue This ain't 1690, it's 2002. |
|
11 Oct 02 - 05:20 PM (#801363) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Big Tim The more I see of the political fall-out to the Raid, the more I'm convinced it was all a set-up, a conspiracy, to get the DUP and UUP out of the Assembly. Can't prove it of course! |
|
11 Oct 02 - 06:14 PM (#801403) Subject: RE: BS: NI Police raid Sinn Fein offices, homes From: Ireland Thats the one pooka, ye ha! |