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15 Oct 02 - 10:53 PM (#804053) Subject: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: Thomas the Rhymer In the song 'Auld Rob Morris' the last verse is thus... O had she been but of a laigher degree, I then might have hop'd she wad smil'd upon me! O, how past descriving had then been my bliss, As now my distraction no words can express! O.K., What the heck did he mean by the word DESCRIVING? I am clueless...ttr |
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15 Oct 02 - 11:09 PM (#804062) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: GUEST The glosary in my Burns defines it. Descrive - To describe. Laigher - lower |
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15 Oct 02 - 11:09 PM (#804063) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: GUEST,Billy Describing. He uses the same word in the song "Awa', Whigs, Awa'". |
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15 Oct 02 - 11:57 PM (#804092) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: Thomas the Rhymer GOOD WORK guests! I was sure hoping that wasn't the answer, yet in the back o my mind... |
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16 Oct 02 - 12:11 AM (#804104) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: masato sakurai Not that Bunrs couldn't spell. The word seems to have comes from Middle English descrive(n), which, according to my etymological dictionary, is from Old French descrivre. The present-day describe is directly from Latin describere. ~Masato |
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16 Oct 02 - 12:13 AM (#804105) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: GUEST,Guest "Scrive" is a Lallans word meaing to scratch or mark or to write easily and copiously or a piece of writing. However, whether this word can have "de" placed in front of it who knows? "Describe" in Lallans is "descrieve" (this is a dialectic spelling). With Burns he sometimes seems to be a law unto himself liguistically. Neither really fits well, but that is the beauty of poetic license.... |
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16 Oct 02 - 12:33 AM (#804115) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: Malcolm Douglas Perfectly good Middle English word, as Masato said; retained longer in Scotland than in England. V often mutates into B; compare, for example, scrivener and scribe. |
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16 Oct 02 - 03:42 AM (#804201) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: GUEST,Boab Just a thought---the "Auld Alliance" seems to have left some French influence in the Scots language. The word under discussion could be one instance. Other examples are "grauvit" [cravat], a scarf or tie; "Tassie"[ une tasse] , a cup . There is even a suggestion somewhere that the famous Haggis comes from the French "hachis" meaning hash, mince or mince meat. |
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16 Oct 02 - 04:39 AM (#804215) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: John in Brisbane Just pointing out that there's been a Scots Glossary here at Mudcat for a year or two with about 7,500 entries, and yes 'descrive' is in there. Look under PermaThreads for Scots Glossary. I've also recently added an Australian Glossary as well. Not sure where it's listed at the moment. Regards, John |
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16 Oct 02 - 05:26 AM (#804223) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: greg stephens If you listen attentively, you'll notice that the word "disturb" is pronounced as if it was spelt "Disturve" by a substantial percentage of the English (and possibly Scottish?) population.The change from b to v is very widely observed historically, but this is an interesting example where you can actually hear the two versions coexisting in the same population. |
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16 Oct 02 - 07:47 AM (#804272) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: SINSULL Now back to the serious stuff: What exactly is a curly pow? |
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16 Oct 02 - 07:53 AM (#804275) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Sinsull click here Regards |
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16 Oct 02 - 08:54 AM (#804312) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: Pied Piper Hi Thomas the Rhymer As a speeker of Northern English I have very little difficulty uderstanding Burns. Were do you hail from. All the best PP. |
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16 Oct 02 - 09:00 AM (#804314) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: Snuffy Sinsull, don't let Spaw hear you mention CPs! |
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16 Oct 02 - 08:23 PM (#804947) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: Thomas the Rhymer Hey there Pied Piper (where'd all these kids come from?), I'm in Seattle, Wa, USA. I usually 'get it' right off... The spelling thing does not confuse me, cause I tend to be more Phonetic than 'correct'... Burns makes great good sense to me oftener that not, but this word and its conext has been throwing me off while I'm learning the song. I'd get to the last verse and the 'mystery' of meaning would confuse my need to sing... and I'd start laughing... ttr |
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16 Oct 02 - 08:31 PM (#804957) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: McGrath of Harlow I'd have assumed it meant describe in writing, as against speech. If it doesn't it ought to, because that'd be a useful word. |
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16 Oct 02 - 09:34 PM (#804992) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: GUEST People have a tendency to refer to old word use as dialect. These words may appear in dialectical speech, but is it correct to refer to an old and hono(u)rable word as dialect just because it has passed out of common use? The OED says that sometime in the 16th century, the latinate describe began to replace descrive except in Scotland. The word apparently is descended from Old French descrivre. Are the Normans to blame? |
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17 Oct 02 - 04:34 AM (#805147) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: GUEST,Boab An interesting closing query, Guest. Norman influence on the language --and pronunciation---is evident all over. Quite a large proportion of the Clans are Norman in origin. Colquhouns, Bruces , Frasers, Menzies are all Norman clans. [ I am of the opinion that the common Scottish pronunciation of Menzies as "Mingus" is a direct result of local attempts at French pronunciation]. |
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17 Oct 02 - 07:33 AM (#805229) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: JulieF Fou is scots dialect in drunk ( as in 'Getting Fou ' ) whereas Fou/Folle is the French for mad. I always thought there was a connection. All the best Julie |
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17 Oct 02 - 08:25 AM (#805255) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: Pied Piper Not from Ercildoune then Thomas. I'm based in the Peoples Free Democratic Republic of Eccles, near Salford (Dirty old town) about 5 miles from the centre of Manchester UK. All the best PP. |
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17 Oct 02 - 02:17 PM (#805534) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: weerover Boab, I think you'll find that the "z" in "menzies" was originall a letter that looked something like a modern "z" but was pronounced more like a "y" - I think it's called a "yogh", but don't have my Chambers Dictionary to hand. You'll find it in other Scots names - McFadzean (pron. McFadyen), Culzean (pron. Cullayn) Castle |
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17 Oct 02 - 04:18 PM (#805574) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: EBarnacle1 Just to complicate the origin even more, it's probably related to the current German usage cf "Shreiben" to write. Might it have come to all through the Saxons? |
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17 Oct 02 - 04:38 PM (#805591) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: Robin For "descrive", v ... the OED2(3) gives a range of possiblities. OED assigns Burns to 2. -- describe; but I'd go for 4. -- descry. Either meaning could fit the sense of the passage. OED -- defs. of "descrive": Obs. exc. Sc. [a. OF. descriv-re (13th c.), later descrire, full stem descriv- (mod.F. décrire, décriv-) = Pr. descriure, Cat. descriuer, It. descrivere:—L. In the course of the 16th c. gradually superseded (exc. in Sc.) by the latinized form describe. Descrive was in ME. reduced to descrie (descry v.2), and thus confused in form, and sometimes in sense with descry v.1 Hence descrive also occurs as a form of the latter.] 1. To write down, inscribe; to write out, transcribe. b. To write down in a register, enrol; cf. Vulg. Luke ii. 1 ut describeretur universus orbis. 2. = describe v. 2. including: - 1785 Burns To W. Simpson xvi, Let me fair Nature's face descrive. 3. a. To represent pictorially or by delineation; also absol. b. To draw geometrically (figures, etc.). c. To trace out or pass over (a definite course). Cf. describe v. 3–6. d. To map out, set forth the boundaries of. (But also often including the general sense 2.) ¶4. = descry v.1 [Cf. etymol. note above.] Robin |
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17 Oct 02 - 10:00 PM (#805761) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: Thomas the Rhymer Bingo!!!! Robin, may I call you Robin?... I was still breaking into distracting chuckles... untill now. I am finally going to be able to sing 'Auld Rob Morris'... assuming of course that the words will take... I really like this tune! Cheerio! ttr |
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17 Oct 02 - 10:38 PM (#805775) Subject: RE: What the heck did Burns mean by... From: Robin "Bingo!!!!" Glad to help. " Robin, may I call you Robin?... " Of course -- and I'll call you True Thomas. I always respect people who take the low road, and consort with the Queen of Faery. " I was still breaking into distracting chuckles... untill now. I am finally going to be able to sing 'Auld Rob Morris'... assuming of course that the words will take... I really like this tune! Cheerio! ttr " For what it's worth, the standary edition of Burns is in three volumes, edited by James Kinsley (Oxford). He may have a note to the poem, and I think he includes tunes. Robin |