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23 Oct 02 - 02:46 PM (#809490) Subject: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Wolfgang With so many politics threads lately I thought I might as well start a music thread. A musical performance in Moscow has been interrupted by about twenty armed men taking hostages the up to 600 people in the audience. Children and Muslims (what a nice combination) have been allowed to leave. Let's hope for a moment without hope they just didn't like the music. Wolfgang |
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23 Oct 02 - 04:23 PM (#809510) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Alice Do you have a link online to the news story, Wolfgang? World madness. |
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23 Oct 02 - 04:32 PM (#809518) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: MMario google news is showing quite a few stories on it now - when Wolfgang first posted there wasn't anything. google news |
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23 Oct 02 - 04:32 PM (#809519) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Alice Just found the story on some US news web sites... top story along with the DC sniper. MOSCOW — Armed men claiming to be Chechens took a theater audience hostage in Moscow on Wednesday and threatened to blow up the building if the police stormed it, authorities said. |
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23 Oct 02 - 04:35 PM (#809524) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Alice The Soviet Palace of Art was holding a performance of the musical Nord-Ost (North-East), one of the Russian capital's most popular productions. Police estimated the hostage count to be between 700 and 900 people. The Interfax news agency said one of its reporters was inside the theater at the time of the raid. She told them in a telephone call that the men fired automatic weapons into the air and were preventing the audience from leaving, the agency said. Alexander Tsekalo, the musical's producer, told Russian television that the theater holds 1,163 audience members, approximately 60 actors and 35 musicians are involved in the production and about 35 theater personnel are present at every performance. He speculated that about 1,000 people would be in the building for a regular Wednesday performance. According to Izvestiya newspaper, at least 20 gunmen, some of whom were armed with automatic weapons, had allowed all members of the audience to make phone calls and children and Muslim audience members were allowed to leave. A woman who made her way out of the theater said in an interview on Russia's NTV television that men wearing camouflage went on stage, fired in the air and said: "Don't you understand what's going on? We are Chechens. We are not hiding it." Russian television reported the gunmen claimed they were raiding the theater to draw attention to the war in Chechnya and to advocate an end to the conflict. The gunmen also warned police not to storm the building and said that any dead gunman would result in ten dead hostages. above from www.foxnews.com |
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23 Oct 02 - 07:58 PM (#809703) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: DougR It will be interesting to see how Putin handles this I think. DougR |
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24 Oct 02 - 11:15 AM (#810188) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: EBarnacle1 Some critics are just too tough. |
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24 Oct 02 - 11:17 AM (#810189) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Bagpuss I heard they have let foreigners go (including some Brits), but now they are threatening to kill the hostages. Bagpuss |
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24 Oct 02 - 03:21 PM (#810374) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: DougR I don't know whether or not it is feasible to do so, but I think the Cable news networks should devote more time to what is going on over in Russia. That is scary! Lots of people could get killed or injured in this terrorist action. I think there is too much concentration on the current situation related to the sniper in the D. C. area. I guess that is the nature of cable news these days though. DougR |
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24 Oct 02 - 07:56 PM (#810585) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Lepus Rex Well... It's too bad that it takes something like this to get people talking about Ichkeria/Chechnya again. But when you invade a nation, deport the populace en masse to Kazakhstan (killing 1/3rd of them in the process), and then kill a couple hundred thousand more when they secede, things like this happen. The Russian empire has held the entire Chechen nation hostage for a century and a half, so I don't think I'll shed too many tears if, to paraphrase Lenin, a few eggs get broken in Moskva. ---Lepus Rex |
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25 Oct 02 - 07:25 AM (#810916) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: alanabit It is a hard one. If the Moscow authorities give in immediately it will save the lives of all the hostages. It will save the lives of the hostage takers. (Before I get my ass flamed - no - that's not my priority either!) It will save the lives of security staff. It will save the lives of Russian soldiers in Chechnya and it will save the lives of Chechenyan citizens and guerillas alike. It will also put everyone everywhere at greater risk of being taken hostage. Nobody agrees with the method. Many of us agree with their objectives. Why can't there be some easier ways out of these dilemnas? |
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25 Oct 02 - 07:53 AM (#810925) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Bobert Free the hostages! Free the Chechens! Free the hostages! Free the Chechens! Free the................... Bobert |
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25 Oct 02 - 08:01 AM (#810928) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: catspaw49 As long as we live in a world where there is such great distinction between the haves and the have nots, even in the poorest of societies, we will keep seeing terrorism at every level. It's one of the few devices left to the have nots which they can put hope in being effective. Of course it isn't, but desperation is both a strong motivation and a sad thing. Spaw |
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25 Oct 02 - 08:44 AM (#810952) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: alanabit You are dead right 'Spaw. The tragedy of the Moscow kidnapping is that it will make it more difficult for the government there to do the right thing. |
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25 Oct 02 - 11:41 AM (#811126) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Troll Excuse me Lepus, but... the Chechen Nation? To the best of my knowledge, the Chechens have never been a nation. They have occupied a certain section of country for quite some time but have always been under the governance of other, more powerful countries. The Chechens are a nation only in their own minds. You might also speak of the Pashtun "Nation" or the Kurdish "Nation". As geo-political entities, they do not exist. Whether or not they SHOULD exist is another matter altogether. troll |
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25 Oct 02 - 01:04 PM (#811189) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Lepus Rex Well, first, Troll, I think you're confusing "nation" with "nation-state." The word "nation" is commony used to describe communities of people, united by various characteristics, regardless of whether they have a state or not. Don't worry, common mistake; I still love you. Second, the Chechens declared their independence from Russia more than ten years ago, and still have an active, independent (if innefective) government headed by Aslan Maskhadov. Third, even by the Russians, the Chechens are considered a nationality, with their own semi-autonomous Republic within Russia. So... Oh, yeah: I'm at home now, and found the book with a quote about the Chechen conflict that I wanted to include in my first post, by the late Alexander Lebed: "Bombardments have an unpleasant side effect: They engender wolves who for a very long time will not conceal their fangs. The most splendid soldiers are made of the people who are leaving their homes in the morning without even thinking about a war, but after returning home in the evening discover the place of their houses are now shell-holes in which their wives, children and parents had evaporated... Only one thing remains to such people---revenge." ---Lepus Rex |
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25 Oct 02 - 01:22 PM (#811201) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: GUEST This isn't about rich folks vs poor folks in the third world countries. It is about pure, unabashed power and territorialism. And excuse me, but just how, after a hundred years of terrorising the Chechens, are the Russians being prevented from "doing the right thing" now? This "can't give in to terrorists" is a bit too Thatherite and Reaganesque for my tastes. Please Putin, stop the slaughter of innocents by giving in and getting the Russian troops the hell out. I'm on the side of the hostage takers, even though I feel very bereft about the circumstances for all involved. |
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25 Oct 02 - 07:44 PM (#811514) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Troll The ends justify the means, eh GUEST? What are your thoughts on the Bali bombing or the bombers in Zamboanga. Are you on their side as well? Why or why not. troll |
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26 Oct 02 - 03:25 AM (#811747) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Teribus Well, glad to hear that is now over. The Russians stormed the place this morning (6 am, their time) when the Chechens started killing hostages as they had promised to do. Situation and news reports are still confused but the operation seems to have gone well, although we will have to wait and see. Lepus Rex: "Well, first, Troll, I think you're confusing "nation" with "nation-state." The word "nation" is commony used to describe communities of people, united by various characteristics, regardless of whether they have a state or not. Don't worry, common mistake; I still love you. Second, the Chechens declared their independence from Russia more than ten years ago, and still have an active, independent (if innefective) government headed by Aslan Maskhadov. Third, even by the Russians, the Chechens are considered a nationality, with their own semi-autonomous Republic within Russia." From your three paragraphs above it would seem by your reasoning that although Troll may have been confusing "nation" with "nation-state" (personally I do not think he was), both yourself and the Chechens do confuse the two and the Russians never have. It's all about oil of course and time is running out for the Chechens, because as soon as the pipeline through Turkey is completed Azeri oil does not have to go through the northern pipeline which passes through Russia and Georgia. |
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26 Oct 02 - 03:34 AM (#811749) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Teribus Sorry - a couple of things I forgot to mention. Lepus: "The word "nation" is commony used to describe communities of people, united by various characteristics, regardless of whether they have a state or not." In my home town, we used to think that way until the age of about eleven - except we called them gangs. Tended to disappear once we got to High School and found ourselves playing in the same rugby team, and sitting in class beside the same sets of guys we'd spent the previous few years knocking lumps out of and getting lumps knocked out of ourselves. The form of nation you seem to hold so dear is exactly the same - narrow, destructive and disruptive. For Bobert - should he venture into this thread - You have just seen your "Battle of Baghdad" played out in miniature. |
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26 Oct 02 - 07:48 AM (#811808) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Lepus Rex I'm not confusing anything, Teribus. I was simply explaining to Troll three different ways in which the Chechens could be could considered a nation. "My" definition of nation is the one you'll find in your dictionary, if you own one. It's not a "narrow" definition. In fact, it's considerably broader in scope than yours, existing beyond political borders. And it has little or nothing to do with oil. Russia has no real use for Chechnya. It's a poor, mountainous land filled with people who always have, and always will, despise them. But if they let them go, they fear that indedpendence-minded minorities in Tatarstan, Daghestan, Khalmg Tangch, Sakha Republic, etc., will be emboldened to secede as well. They've already lost huge swaths of their old empire, and don't intend to lose any more of their current one. Oh, and the Russian did a lovely job of "freeing" the hostages. Many apparently suffocated when the Russian police gassed the theater. ---Lepus Rex |
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26 Oct 02 - 12:43 PM (#811879) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Sorcha At least 67 dead........... |
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26 Oct 02 - 12:54 PM (#811884) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: GUEST looks a lot worse than that sorcha |
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26 Oct 02 - 12:57 PM (#811888) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Sorcha Yes, heard the 67 much earlier this morning. |
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26 Oct 02 - 02:43 PM (#811938) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: McGrath of Harlow "Well, glad to hear that is now over." It isn't exactly over, and "glad" a word that doesn't really belong in a situation like this. Current figure for deaths among hostages is 90 and expected to rise, given the number seriously injured in hospital. Their chances of survival isn't improved by the refusal of the authorities to let the doctors know what the gas used was. Nothing can justify this kind of hostage taking, but its worth understanding some of things that have led up to it. The background to this is a brutal, near genocidal, war launched by Russia, in breach of a peace settlement in a previous successful war of indepedence. The grounds for the new war were a series of terrorist atrocities against Russian civilians which there are very good grounds for believing were carried out by the Russian authorities as part of Putin's successful bid to become elected President. Essentially it was warmaking as an electoral stunt. The nightmare is that it's starting to seem that atrocities are having to be bigger and bigger in order to get media attention. The only sane thing to have done would have been for Moscow to preempt the whole thing by accepting the right of Chechnya to secede the same way places like Georgia, Lithuania and all the rest were able to secede. But no, power politics didn't allow that because technically, unlike those countries, Chechnya was part of Russia rather than a theoretically separate state within the Soviet Union. Crazy. |
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26 Oct 02 - 03:18 PM (#811958) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: GUEST Hear, hear McGrath. The fact that this tragedy has got so little coverage here, is further evidence of the insular nature of US citizes. Had this happened in California, we'd have a thousand threads. 'God bless America, God damn the rest' |
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26 Oct 02 - 06:32 PM (#812036) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Murray MacLeod "I don't think I'll shed too many tears if, to paraphrase Lenin, a few eggs get broken in Moskva. ---Lepus Rex" So how many tears are you shedding right now, Will ? None for Bali, none for Washington DC, none for the innocents in the Moscow theater? Getting the tear-ducts lubricated up for the first Cruise missile to hit Baghdad? And to think I apologized for my Ramadan-a ding-dong thread a year ago. Go, George ... Murray |
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26 Oct 02 - 07:50 PM (#812075) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: McGrath of Harlow Here's a link to Human Rights Watch which has material both about this hostage taking ("a revolting, unjustifiable act") and about atrocities carried out by the Russians against Chechens, including rape, "disapearances", torture and massacre. There's a lot of terrorism about in the world today, and much of the time the terrorists are on opposite sides to each other. |
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27 Oct 02 - 05:54 AM (#812301) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Lepus Rex And to think I apologised for calling you a racist, Murray. I missed last years "Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong" thread, somehow, and only...5 days after we had our "racist bastard" conversation? Drinking again, are we? ---Lepus Rex |
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27 Oct 02 - 07:25 AM (#812333) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Lepus Rex Well, the hostage body count has risen to 118, now, most if not all dead as a result of inhaling the Russian "mystery gas." It appears to me that the Chechens were successful: They brought Ichkeria/Chechnya back to the headlines, and showed the world who the real "terrorists" are: the Russians, who once again have slaughtered their own civilian citizens for political gain. I think it's going to backfire this time, hopefully bringing Putin down and ending the occupation. Unlike the apartment bombings, this happened on TV. Again, it's too bad it had to come to this. ---Lepus Rex |
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27 Oct 02 - 08:30 AM (#812371) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Troll So, someone tell us all what the Russians should have done to free the hostages. Give the world the benefit of your expertise. Keep in mind that once a nation gives in to hostage-takers demands, others will be emboldened to do the same and some of them will not have any sort of noble purpose in mind. They will be after wealth; money not liberty. So lets hear it folks. What would YOU have done? troll |
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27 Oct 02 - 08:54 AM (#812397) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: alanabit I would have given into the terrorists demands as soon as I had heard them. It would have saved all the lives in the theatre - hostage and hostage taker alike. It would have endangered no more members of the security forces. It would have ended the war in Chechenya - saving the lives of Russian troops, Chechenyan troops and both Russian and Chechen non combatants. Unlike the current ruling Kremlin cadre, I do not wish to remain in power indefinitely or curry favour with the current White House incumbet. And by the way, I believe that ending the Chechenyan war is the right course of action anyway. |
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27 Oct 02 - 02:09 PM (#812579) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: DougR I think Russia did what it had to do. To give in to Terrorist demands only invites them to do it again. How about at the Super Bowl, or the World Series? The Olympics? Your neighborhood movie theater? It is terrible that so many innocent lives were lost, but better 118 than 800. Does that mean I don't care about those that died? No, not at all. We are living in a different world now, and it's not easy to accept that fact. DougR |
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27 Oct 02 - 02:19 PM (#812583) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Lepus Rex If the Russians would've given in to the "terrorist" demands, Doug, Russian troops would be pulling out of Chechnya, and there would be no reason to repeat these actions. All the brutal Russian response has done is 1.Alienate and anger the Russian public, and 2.Show any would-be Chechen "terrorists" that this tactic still works very well to do just that, and to publicise their cause. So, in response to Troll's question: I would have "given in," too. Of course, I'd like nothing more than to see the Russian empire burn to the ground, so... :) ---Lepus Rex |
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27 Oct 02 - 02:24 PM (#812588) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Troll As I said, where does the "giving in" end? Where does a country or an individual draw the line? troll |
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27 Oct 02 - 02:29 PM (#812595) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: alanabit I was being a little provocative, but the irony of the situation was that Putin was holding out for the right to continue doing the wrong thing. In most situations I would put the lives of the hostages second (gasp) and consider the danger to future potential victims. I just happen to think that Putin is wrong and that he will continue to endanger more lives. No disrespect to your views Doug. I too believe that all terrorism is wrong. |
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27 Oct 02 - 02:41 PM (#812602) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Lepus Rex Any region of any country where the population no longer wishes to remain a part of that state should have the right to secede, in my opinion. In such a case, the state should "give in" and let the seperatists go. In most cases (as probably would have happened in Chechnya, eventually, if it weren't for Yeltsin's personal dislike of Dudaev), the new state would be unable to sustain itself, and return to it's mother country in exchange for greater autonomy. In the case of Chechnya, I'm hoping for a broader revolt in Russia's North Caucasus, and a new Trans-Caucasian state. Which, yeah, will probably not happen, but, hey, if I was "Russia," that's what I'd aim for. ;) ---Lepus Rex |
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27 Oct 02 - 02:44 PM (#812604) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: McGrath of Harlow The difference between this and September 11th and October 12th is that these were terrorists making demands. "Do this or we'll do that." That's horrible and it's not justifiable, but it's "rational". The hijackers of September 11th and the bombers of October 11th in Bali weren't making demands. That's what is different about them, and that's an important difference to keep in mind. And the other thing about the war in Chechnya is that it is a vicious and unjust war by Russia which should never have started, and the sooner it stops the better for everyone. Historical analogies should never be taken too far - but imagine a scenario in which a bunch of Jews had done something like this in a Berlin theatre and had demanded a halt to the Holocaust? Would people be quite so certain that giving in to their demands would have been the wrong thing to do? |
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27 Oct 02 - 03:20 PM (#812627) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: DougR I'm not convinced it is a good analogy, McGrath. I think had that happened, the Nazis would have been delighted to storm the place and kill every Jew in sight. Accounts I have read in newspapers and seen on TV report that the Russians did not storm the theater until the Rebels began killing the hostages, so I don't believe one can say Putin did not use some restraint. DougR |
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27 Oct 02 - 06:39 PM (#812761) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: McGrath of Harlow As I said, one shouldn't try to stretch analogies too far. Putin isn't Hitler, and the Chechnya isn't the Holocaust. The point is, the demand that terrorists were making was in fact an essentially just demand - being demanded in an unjust and terrible way. And that would have been the case in an even more extreme way in the imaginary scenario that I painted, with innocent German civilians being held hostage by desperate Jews. And in both cases those making the demand would have known that there was no real possibility of it being accepted, and that the most that could be achieved would be to make more people aware of what was going on out of sight. The latest death toll is 117 hostages (BBC News Website. And 116 of these were killed by the "rescue" gas, with one dying from gunshot wounds. It's unclear to what extent those figures might have been lower, if the Russian authorities hadn't refused to tell the medical people what poison gas it was that they used. |
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27 Oct 02 - 06:55 PM (#812769) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Gareth Kevin - Where do we stop ( and it's not often I disagree with you) Picture the senario A gang of Rabid right wingers holding hostage in the Old Vic theater thretening to kill them all unless all imigration to the UK is stopped ? A gang of our own home grown Nutt cases in Wales threatening to kill all in the Arms Park Stadium unless all English Speakers are expelled from Wales ?? - And there are enough Nat Nutt cases around to make this a realistic senario. The KKK demanding repeal of all civil rights legislation in the US of A ??? Now neither of us were there in Moscow - and we did not have the responsability of the decision, or the information to make the decision. Perhaps the Russian Authorities made a bad call, and misjudged it - we dont know, but most of the hostages were saved. and to aceeed would only have gaurenteed a repeat some where else, somewhere later. In the early 1970's my parents were in Egypt, as employees of HM Government in the UK/Egypt educational training program. My father left strickt instructions with the fammilly - he was not to be ransomed. Fortunately it never came to that. Gareth |
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27 Oct 02 - 07:04 PM (#812774) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: catspaw49 Well it is nice to know that the U.S. had a part in it all as it seems to be a gas we developed during VietNam...........Yes, when better weapons are developed, WE WILL develop them! Let's keep the DOW in Dow-Jones............................ Spaw |
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27 Oct 02 - 08:21 PM (#812807) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Troll You'll notice that the Israelis don't have hostage situations. That's because it is known that, in their policy, all hostages are presumed to be dead. They then act accordingly. The result? No hostage situations. If you KNOW that they are not going to negotiate with you, why bother? I suppose that the suicide bombs are used instead. A lousy situation, but that's the way they do it. I guess that only the Islamic Radicals are willing to blow themselves up and that's why we don't have more bombings in the world. It was my understanding that it was a narcotic gas that was used, not poison, and it was used in high concentration to knock out the terrorists before they could detonate the bombs the had planted or were carrying. There is no knowing how many would have died had those bombs gone off. troll |
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27 Oct 02 - 09:33 PM (#812841) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: McGrath of Harlow The difference from those imaginary situations Gareth gave is that the actual demand for an end to the war and a withdrawal of Russian forces is a demand for something that ought to happen. It's a cruel and unjust war in which terrible things are being done. And the people who are fighting against it includes people who are ready to do cruel and unjust things as well, and the hostage taking was as cruel and unjust as can be. But that doesn't mean that what they were asking wasn't something that ought to be done. "Not poison" when it has so far killed 116 people? Just because in certain circumstances it is believed that it (whatever "it" was) might not be lethal? Arsenic is quite good for you in small doses, I believe. But if 116 peope died after you administered it to them, I doubt if that would be seen as grounds for saying it wasn't a case of poisoning. Well, perhaps in the circumstances it seemed the least worst thing to do. Perhaps it was bungled. But refusing to give the doctors the information about the gas that they needed, that wasn't bungling or the least worst thing to do. It seems more like cold-blooded murder. Here's that link to Human Rights Watch I gave earlier. It's on noone's side. Or everyones's. |
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27 Oct 02 - 10:50 PM (#812871) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Little Hawk Sounds like a no-win situation to me. Pretty miserable. Spaw, I agree with your brief comment...it's the Haves vs. the Have-nots once again...with innocent bystanders paying the price. - LH |
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28 Oct 02 - 02:31 AM (#812915) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Troll The Russians have ruled that area for several hundred years. How far back do you go? Fifty years? Five hundred years? Do you tell one group that they deserve their own country and another group that they don't? Actually, the Checheyns had self-rule after the first war. Then came the bombings of the apartment buildings in Moscow (which some claim Putin did to get elected) and the war started up again. I have no clue as to why the Russian Govt. has refused to identify the gas. Any substance can be dangerous if used in large enough quantities. Water will kill you if you inhale too much of it but try to live without it. troll |
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28 Oct 02 - 05:46 AM (#812979) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: McGrath of Harlow No need to go back hundreds of years in this case. As you say troll: Actually, the Chechens had self-rule after the first war (ie in 1999). Then came the bombings of the apartment buildings in Moscow (which some claim Putin did to get elected) and the war started up again. And the evidence of Russian "security" (the FSB) being involved in those apartment buildings bombing seems pretty strong. In one case "local residents and police caught individuals in an apartment building planting what appeared to be explosives, which the FSB subsequently claimed were bags of sugar that were part of a security "exercise." The Chechens had nothing to gain from those bombings, and everything to k,lose; those Russians who wanted to renew the war had a great deal to gain. And so especially did those who wanted Putin to be elected. |
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28 Oct 02 - 06:21 AM (#812992) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Teribus Kevin, In the article you link to above, the guy admits that he has no evidence of Putin's involvement and later in the article he says that he has no evidence of FSB involvement. What he has done is to allude to having/making evidence/proof, but as he has had about three years to come up with it and has so far failed to do so does not make a "pretty strong case" - there is no evidence. |
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28 Oct 02 - 06:35 AM (#812996) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: McGrath of Harlow And equally the evidence for the involvement of the Chechens in those apartment bombings wasn't too much in evidence either. But that didn't stop the Russians immediately starting up a second war. All efforts at an independent investigation into what actually happened have been hindered. The principle of cui bono isn't the last word, but it's always a good thing to keep an eye on who it is who actually benefits from an event like this. And it certainly wasn't the Chechens. |
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28 Oct 02 - 08:23 AM (#813045) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Troll There may even have been an unknown third group who stood to gain if the war started up again. We'll probably never know the truth. troll |
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28 Oct 02 - 05:10 PM (#813220) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Lepus Rex I wouldn't say that the Russians have "ruled that area for several hundred years," Troll. They've attempted to rule Chechnya for several hundred years, but only annexed the entire area about 140 years ago. Even then, their grip on Chechnya was rather weak, and there have been periodic rebellions ever since. It's NOT Russia, and never has been. The Chechens, decimated as they are, still form a vast majority in Chechnya, have declared their independence, and, legally, are not even a part of the Russian Federation, as they refused to sign the Federal Treaty in '92. What more should a nation have to be recognised as independent? They have a better case than... Belgium. There's not much more to say here about the apartment bombings, other than that no-one who knows anything about the conflict (including many Russians) believes that Chechens were involved. While it can't yet be proven that the FSB did it, either, the evidence points in their direction. ---Lepus Rex |
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28 Oct 02 - 07:15 PM (#813254) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Gareth Which misses the point. Tell me - do I have the moral right to take a bunch of strangers hostage - threaten to kill them if my demands (reasonable in some eye's - outrageuos in other peoples eyes) are not met ??? The answer can only be no. As Kiplin said (roughly) If the danegeld you pay, you'll never be rid of the Dane " Gareth |
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28 Oct 02 - 09:42 PM (#813336) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Lepus Rex No, you have no right to take hostages, but you might not have many other options. If you were, say, Movsar Barayev, you couldn't field a million-man army, like the Russians. You couldn't send your bombers flying to Moskva, to turn it into a crater. And you wouldn't have the US, cheering your genocidal storm troopers on. It wouldn't be a fair fight, would it? So what would you do? Roll over and wait for a Russian death squad? Sit on a mountain, shooting at helicopters, 'til they drop a bomb on you? Or would you do something desperate? This has nothing to do with "terrorism," and if these were Lutherans from Estonia, no-one would say so. These aren't Saudi playboys, miffed at US soldiers in their holy land. These are men and women fighting for the survival of a nation, and it's an awful and cruel and dirty fight by necessity. ---Lepus Rex |
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29 Oct 02 - 05:51 AM (#813443) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Teribus Lepus Rex, When the USSR broke up and independence was claimed by the former Soviet Socialist Republics, Chechnya and other areas of the former Soviet Union were not among them. One reason for this was because they would have been totally unviable as "states". At the end of the First World War when the Austro-Hungarian Empire was dismembered a number of "states" were created that were unviable. In order to make them viable various parts of Germany were broken off, complete with their German populations (who were never consulted on the matter), so that these new states would have some form of industrial capability, some form of natural resources, a corridor to provide access to the sea, etc, etc. Disaffection with this arrangement was one of the root causes of what became known as the Second World War. So what would make the State of Chechnya viable - various lumps of real estate round about them - so how do they get hold of those - either by force or by persuasion - from what I can see the Chechens have little or nothing to offer so persuasion would be difficult. Perhaps their former rulers could be convinced to continue to support them - sort of like a big theme park. Maybe large tracts of present day Poland and the Sudatenland should campaign for re-unification with Germany - it would make EU enlargement a bit simpler. You ask: "What more should a nation have to be recognised as independent?" Simple it should have means to survive and thrive as an independent state. |
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29 Oct 02 - 06:53 AM (#813464) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: McGrath of Harlow No Gareth, noone under any circumstances has the right to take innocent people hostages and threaten to kill them, even if their demands are totally just. But even if they do so, that doesn't make the thing they are demanding any less a just demand. That's why I gave the extreme imaginary example I did, about Jews in face of the Holocaust. Waging an unjust war in effect means taking a whole country hostage. In fact it means taking at least two countries hostage, since the people of the home country are also held hostage, more esopecially the conscripts in the army. |
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29 Oct 02 - 08:44 AM (#813502) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Wolfgang I just pictured for a moment how the discussion would go if that had happened 20 years ago under Breshnew and there were rumours that the rebels/terrorists have been payed (partly) by the CIA. I could easily picture several posters defending the opposite opinion they defend now, but I'm cynical in that respect. I think that ending the war in Chechnya and leaving that republic to itself is something that ought to happen and nevertheless think Putin was right not to give in here. If any country starts to consider what ought to happen anyway in situations of terrorist blackmail they pave the way for future actions of a similar kind. I picture a parliament deciding whether something terrorists demand 'ought to happen' and then say, 'o.k. we give in' or 'go on kill the hostages for what you want ought not to happen'. Some among you seem to see the terrorists in a kind of rosy light and seem to think that giving in to the demands would end all danger and hostility and dying. The first end of the Chechen war did nothing of that kind. Young men who have learned nothing but killing look for other jobs then. Last time a large group went over to Dagestan (a neighbouring republic) to fight and kill there. That's what would happen and those who send them money would be glad. And of course, acts like we have seen would be repeated, contrary to what Lepus Rex has posted. The war in Chechnya is extremely dirty. For instance, 'Pay 500 rubles or you'll get raped' (Russian soldiers being the ones giving this 'choice') happens too often to be considered single incidents. But the Chechen 'freedom fighters' are also of the worst possible kind. Have you forgotten the pictures of the four decapitated heads on poles when the Western companies did decline to pay enough money for the release of their employees? One Chechen rebel leader said: "The relation of the Muslim to a non-believer is that of the sword to the blood.' At least some of them believe that and act accordingly. I would not like to see people with these opinions anywhere near me. Wolfgang |
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29 Oct 02 - 09:08 AM (#813522) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Troll Thanks for mentioning Dagestan, Wolfgang. Lepus, I believe that Bush criticized Putin for the war in Chechenya during the Presidential campaign. And I don't believe the US is " cheering your genocidal storm troopers on." If we are, It sure isn't making the international press. I'd appreciate a link or two. troll |
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29 Oct 02 - 11:02 AM (#813593) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Wolfgang Just a tiny information from a trial in Hamburg, Germany from today. It may look like thread creep at first but it isn't: In Hamburg, there is now the first trial in Germany against helpers of the terrorists from September, 11th. You recollect that death pilots Atta, Alshehhi, Jarrah came from Hamburg? Now one man, Motassadeq, who the state attorney considers a helper is on trial. Today, Motassadeq was questioned and said that the above mentioned Arabs had in 1999 considered to go to Chechenya to fight there against the Russians as revenge for the massacres the Russians had committed. They did train in Afghanistan for that fight but he says he doesn't know who (or what) changed their minds. Wolfgang |
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29 Oct 02 - 11:14 AM (#813611) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Any comment from Dubya about Vladdy-boy's use of wepnsamassdersturcshn to resolve the crisis? |
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30 Oct 02 - 09:10 PM (#814869) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Lepus Rex Ah, here's that thread... :) Teribus: I wonder: Did you support the right of tiny, poor, devastated East Timor to secede from Indonesia? Do you recognise the Republic of Nauru, which takes up, what, 8 square miles of rock, and has an economy based entirely on mining a dwindling supply of fossilised bird shit? These are just two of many independent states on this planet that aren't viable. Chad isn't exactly thriving. The Maldives are sinking. Albania just sucks. Do you support the existence of these states? If so, why not Chechnya? Troll: Alright, so I exaggerated a bit when I referred to it as "cheering...on." But Bush's tacit support for Putin's "crackdown" in Chechnya and new (since 9/11) willingness to refer to the Chechen rebels as "terrorists" has the same effect. Your boy, who said during the 2000 campaign that he wanted to cut off aid to Russia if they didn't withdraw from Chechnya, sold the Chechens out in return for Russian support for his "war on terror." As far as the Russians are concerned, and as far as I'm concerned, Bush now supports their genocidal war. Wolfgang: Yeah, so what's your point, about Atta and the rest planning to fight in Chechnya? Really, I'm curious. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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30 Oct 02 - 09:31 PM (#814881) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: greg stephens I think anybody who thinks about the decisions you might have to take in a situation like this would feel a bit daunted at the possible outcomes...will a hundred die to save five hundred? Especially when you dont have a clue yourself how many will die, you rely on your military advisers, when you know full well they dont have a clue either. in that context, I find the normally fair McGrath of Harlow's description of the Russian's actions as "cold-blooded murder" a little sad. |
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31 Oct 02 - 07:20 AM (#815058) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Troll Greg, didn't you know? Political leaders are always on top of things and always make the correct decisions. Except for those times when they don't. Cut Kevin a little slack, please. It's been a rough couple of weeks. troll BTW, Lepus, Bush is NOT "my boy." I voted for bugs Bunny. t |
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31 Oct 02 - 07:56 AM (#815067) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Wolfgang I mentioned Atta boy and the others for the sake of those who don't see connections. They went to Afghanistan training camps to prepare for fighting in Chechenya and the leader of those training camps, a man called Bin Laden, convinced them he had a better use for them. Wolfgang |
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31 Oct 02 - 10:31 PM (#815660) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: GUEST,Lepus Rex Wolfgang, I guess what I'm wondering is: why is this connection so important to you? What difference does it make where they were trained and for what purpose? If they had gone to Chechnya, it would have been to fight a guerrilla war against the Russians, not to fly planes into buildings or blow up discos. To claim that someone is a terrorist (as Bush does) when one recieves aid from a terrorist organisation is like saying one becomes a baker when one buys some bread. Life isn't so black and white. I mean, if I were a Muslim rebel leader in some oppressed nation, pre-9/11, I would have been more than happy to accept financial or military aid from al Qaeda. And Greg: Do you really think Putin was wringing his hands, sobbing about the potential loss of life, when he ordered them gassed, as one victim said, "like cockroaches?" The Russian leadership, now, as always, is cold-blooded, and their citizens are little more than pawns to them. Oh, and "cold-blooded" could also be used to describe the summary excecutions of the Chechens in the theater, who were gunned down while they "slept." ---Lepus Rex |
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01 Nov 02 - 07:38 AM (#815828) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: McGrath of Harlow The "cold-blooded murder" bit referred to the sustained refusal by the Russian authorities to let people treating the surviving hostages have the information they needed to treat them. It seems pretty certain that this has resulted in many of them dying horrible deaths, when they could have been saved. I don't think describing this as "cold-blooded murder" is any kind of exaggeration. Maybe, as I said, there wasn't an alternative to going in the way they did with the gas, but that is a very different matter. Just imagine this had happened in London and it was the British government refusing to let doctors in the London hospitals have information about what they were dealing with. If there were a situation where a bunch of terrorists carried out a gas attack, and refused to let the medical teams have any information about the gas used, that would quite rightly be seen as an additional act of terror. Maybe the media here have got it all wrong, and the Russian authorities have been cooperating fully, and the doctors who have bitterly complained have been lying for some reason. In that case obviously I'd withdraw that comment. But it doesn't seem too likely. |
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01 Nov 02 - 08:15 AM (#815846) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: greg stephens Well. McGrath, I take your point.But I dont think either of us have the medical or other knowledge to know how many of those who made it alive to the hospital (but then died) would have survived if this knowlege had been available. And anyway that's a side issue. I only queried the phrase "cold-blooded murder" in this context, from someone justly famous on Mudcat for balanced viewpoints and absence of vituperation. I really dont think Putin or anyone else set this up as a carefully planned way of of killing 100+ hostages, which is surely the implication of "cold blooded murder". If I send you an attractive Christmas present and it blows up and kills you, that will be c.b.m. But an unfortunate blow to your head with my guitar while pissed and arguing about horse singing folksongs would not, especially if I was aiming at someone else. It would be a very bad thing to do,but not cold blooded murder. |
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01 Nov 02 - 08:29 AM (#815862) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Troll What is this? If Bush calls them terrorists or terrorist sympathizers they are automatically the good guys? Do you really hate Bush so much that you would side with suicide bombers and hostage killers? Oh, and "cold-blooded" could also be used to describe the summary excecutions of the Chechens in the theater, who were gunned down while they "slept." with suicide bombers and hostage killers? Do you have documentation for this, Lepus or is this more of your enthusiasm and portic license. Enquiring minds and all that. troll |
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01 Nov 02 - 09:03 AM (#815925) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Lepus Rex (BEfore you read this message: I'm using even more quotation marks than usual today, so, please, feel free to picture me using those annoying "air quotes.") "Enquiring minds," eh, Troll? So I guess I know where you get your news, now. :) Here's some documentation, dude. I even went to the Washington Post, JUST for you. Oh, and no, my views on the Russian invasion have nothing to do with Bush. I've held my pro-Chechen, anti-Russian views for around ten years, and used to bitch about Clinton's position, too. Actually, Bush's election promise to "cut aid to Russia" was the ONE thing I was looking forward when he was "elected." Too bad he sold the Chechens, like cattle. And, I'd like to point out once again: The Chechens killed TWO hostages, both killings involving escape attempts. The rest were slaughtered by their "saviours." And I haven't seen any proof that there were any real "bombs" in the theater. All those "terrorists," and not one of them could set off a single bomb? I mean, I have no experience as a suicide bomber, but aren't they usually pretty easy to set off? Like, with the click of a button? ---Lepus Rex |
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01 Nov 02 - 09:14 AM (#815944) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Bagpuss Well Troll, how do you think the terrorists died. Some may have died from the poison gas, but not 100%. I can't imagine any of them were still awake either. So they must have been killed while they slept. What do you think happened? |
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01 Nov 02 - 12:49 PM (#816165) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Troll It would appear that the terrorists indeed died from being shot and that some of them were already unconscious. I appreciate the Post article. We have not had any such in the local english language papers here in Tokyo. I would imagine that when the Russian Team broke in, they shot first and then asked questions. That seems logical to assume. Anyone with a gun is a target. Why didn't they set the bombs off? I have no idea. Maybe they were fakes, which would be gross dumb. Maybe they weren't made properly. Maybe the bombers chickened out. The claim that the terrorists had bombs is not something that was cooked up by the Russian Government. The terrorists themselves threatened to blow up themselves and the building if they were rushed. The two shooting deaths took place, according to the Japan Times, when a small boy paniced and ran crying up the aslie. The guard was taken by surprise and fired, killing two people near the boy but not hitting him. It was this shooting that convinced the Russians that the terrorists had indeed started killing hostages, an act which they had threatened if their demands were not met. If anyone has different, credible informantio, please share it. Sorry to disappoint you Lepus' but they don't even HAVE the National Enquirer over here in Japan. troll |
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01 Nov 02 - 06:57 PM (#816416) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: DougR The terrorists would be just as dead had they been concious when they were shot. I don't think the Russians were in any mood to take them prisoner anyway. Just my opinion of course. DougR |
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01 Nov 02 - 07:23 PM (#816426) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Murray MacLeod At the risk of being chauvimistic, if this situation had happened in Britain, the outcome would have been totally different. The SAS would never have gassed terrorists and hostages en masse. The operation would have been conducted with the intent to save as many innocent lives as possible, with loss of life among the rescuing troops being foreseen and accepted as inevitable. The rescuing of the innocent should have been the top priority, not the safety of the rescuers. Furthermore, shooting the terrorists while they were unconscious was totally unjustifible, even although they were Islamic extremists. Murray |
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01 Nov 02 - 10:03 PM (#816551) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: DougR But what if the Terrorists, who had announced they were going to, began killing the hostages at dawn, Murray? Would you have just assumed they were kidding? DougR |
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02 Nov 02 - 04:38 AM (#816666) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: greg stephens Murray, your "it wouldnt happen here" may be credible about some details, but things like that could certainly happen here. Unpleasant decisions do have to be made sometimes. As an obvious examp[le, if some Sep 11 scenario happened, and a hijacked plane was heading for central London or Sellafield, you can be damn sure it would be shot down if there was time to organise that, full of passengers or not. And the Guardian would assuredly be full of letters saying that it was cold blooded murder and so on.Sometimes those in authority feel they have to make a lightning decision that negotiation isnt going to work. Wrong or right, that is the sort of decision that would indeed be taken here. |
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02 Nov 02 - 05:29 AM (#816681) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Troll Murray, when you are clearing a house room by room, you assume that anyone -I repeat, ANYONE- with a gun is hostile and you shoot them. PERIOD. You don't try to take them prisoner unless they are surrendering when you enter the room. In fact if there are no hostages in the building, you throw in a hand grenade first. You do NOT sacrifice your own men in order to avoid killing terrorists. Since the Russian Army had no way of knowing whether or not the gas had been effective, their shooting of any armed terrorist they came across makes good tactical sense. After all, they could have been playing possum. It's happened before. Is the SAS scenario that you cited official Royal Army policy or is it merely what you hope that policy is? troll |
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02 Nov 02 - 11:38 AM (#816855) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Murray MacLeod Doug, Greg and Troll, all that is necessary is to cast our minds back to the siege of the Iranian Embassy in London in 1981 for a textbook example of how to conduct such an operation. The SAS put themselves at huge risk during this operation, because the rescue of the hostages was the prime objective, not the safety of the soldiers nor the death of the terrorists. So, I would hazard a guess tht yes, it is official Army policy. Seems to me that the Russians had slightly different priorities. I do however take Troll's point about "playing possum". Murray |
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03 Nov 02 - 06:17 AM (#817323) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Troll The Russians were told by the terrorists that they would begin killing hostages if their demands were not met. Then they killed two hostages. It is possible that the Russian Govt. felt that they HAD to move or risk a bloodbath. It is also likely that the gas was a last minute grasping at anything that might incapacitate the terrorists before they could kill any more hostages. Introducing gas into a building is iffy at best since you never know how the dispersal will run. I don't believe that the Russians deliberatly gassed the building in an attempt to kill anyone. I think they did what they believed would be their best chance at getting the hostages out alive. If thet had gone in without the gas, the terrorists would probably have set off their bombs as they had threateed. troll |
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03 Nov 02 - 04:03 PM (#817632) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: McGrath of Harlow The refusal to give information about the gas appears to have been an official decision, backed up at the highest levels. It appears to have been determined that it was more important to preserve secrecy than to give the survivors a better chance of living. "And anyway that's a side issue." At that time, after the siege was over, it was not a side issue. It was the central issue. There were innocent people in hospital, and the doctors were asking for information they desperately needed. I'd trust what the doctors treating the wounded said about how they felt they were being obstructed, and that people died as a result. (NB I did not say that the decision to use the gas in the first place was cold-blooded murder, and my words just cannot be read in that sense.) Incidentally the reports I've seen appear to case doubt on whether the captors had actually proceeded with their threats to start executing the hostages, but rather that there had been a fatal shooting resulting from some kind of panic at one point. The important thing here would be whether the Russian Special Forces were acting under the understanding that the threatened executions had started, and that that was the agreed trigger for them to move. That seems likely enough. But a proper independent investigation into the whole thing, including how it was able to happen in the first place, what happened during the siege and the attack, and what happened afterwards, is clearly necessary. And pretty clearly it will never take place. And that means that the lessons that could be learned from this, and that need to be learned to stop something like this happening again somewhere else, won't be learned. |
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03 Nov 02 - 07:29 PM (#817747) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Troll And just why do you think that the aforementioned investigation will never take place? I think that, not only will it take place, but that, indeed, it has already begun. The likelihood of the results of that investigation ever becomming public knowledge, however, is remote. The Russian system is very different from either the British or American systems. They have a legacy of secrecy that will endure for many years. Such things as independent investigators simply do not exist in Russia. Why do you feel that only an independent investigation can answer the questions you have raised? The Russian Govt. is probably just as interested as you, Kevin, in finding out what happened, but you seem to feel that you should have access to that knowledge; knowledge that could well contain items about breaches of national security. Why is it so important for YOU to know exactly what happened? troll |
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03 Nov 02 - 08:52 PM (#817794) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: McGrath of Harlow "And just why do you think that the aforementioned investigation will never take place?" Experience. They hardly ever do. And Troll, from what you say, you don't expect to see one take place either. Why does it need to be independent? Because there are always people who want to cover up their mistakes, and maybe worse than mistakes. (cf The Widgery report on Bloody Sunday - even a formally independent report can be twisted, so long as the people who have the responsibility of reporting are susceptible to political pressure.) Why does such an inquiry need to be open? Because the same kind of thing could happen in all kinds of places around the world, and finding out what went wrong isn't just a matter for the Russians to mull over in secret. People with the responsibility for preventing this kind of disaster need to have that information, the same way the doctors needed the information. And they won't get it, or not until too late. Oh, there'll be a secret inquiry all right, and it might be quite searching. And there'll be a public report which will make sure that all the blame falls in a safe place. And the doctors who spoke up will probably find their careers shipwrecked. |
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03 Nov 02 - 10:00 PM (#817834) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: greg stephens Well. it was me that queried the "cold blooded murder", and I certainly never suggested you were referring to the gassing, I know you were referring to the witholding of information afterwards. "Cold-blooded" means "preplanned" and "murder" implies intent to kill, in any normal meaning of the phrase. I don't believe that holding back that information was a policy carefully thought out in advance to cause people to die after they arrived in hospital alive. And frankly, I don't believe that you believe that either. I think you just said "cold-blooded murder" in the heat of the moment. I think you just made a mistake. |
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03 Nov 02 - 11:00 PM (#817862) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: Troll Why are you so sure the information won't be shared? It just won't be published in the Guardian or the Times. If I were in charge of the investigation, I sure as hell wouldn't publish my findings to the world. Why let the terrorists know that you've figured out their method. If they think you are clueless, they may try it again and you'll be ready and not only get the operatives but their support personnel as well. As far as an independent investigation, no, I don't see that happening. As I said, the Russian system is very different from ours. Not better or worse, just different. troll |
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04 Nov 02 - 12:30 AM (#817892) Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow From: DougR I agree with Troll. I think the Russians will be very interested to know why things did not go as they probably planned. I don't think they intended to kill all of those innocent people. As far as the terrorists are concerned, the operation was a 100% success. No terrorist escaped, as far as we know. We probably will not know the results of an investigation, but my world will not stop turning if I don't. I would hope the information will be shared with our government though. If all of those innocent ones would not have perished, the plan would have been a good one. Free the hostages, and destroy the terrorists. Unfortunately, it didn't turn out that way. DougR |