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01 Nov 02 - 07:12 PM (#816420) Subject: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: katlaughing Another along the lines of the old colloquialisms thread: My ears perk up at differences in accents, uses of language and the like. we've had some wonderfully fun discussion of such. Lately, I've been hearing what Americans call aluminum pronounced as ALOO min yam, pronounced as aloo MINI yam on BBC-America. So I went to my trusty dictionary and sure enough, there was a Brit spelling which included the extra "i" which we don't have over here, so it is aluminium and that pronunciation fits. Now, one other I would like to ask about to get the ball rolling (where did that expression come from?) over here we have a KAWN tro versee (controversy), yet, same spelling and I hear kawn TRAH vesee on Brit tv, with the latter "r" dropped. Is there a different spelling for this one, too? Let's have some more fun, eh? Pedants and scholars on your mark, set, go! |
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01 Nov 02 - 07:29 PM (#816433) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Murray MacLeod Funnily enough, Kat, thease two words are a constant source of cONT-ro-versy between my American wife and myself. I wind her up by using the British pronunciation in both cases, but, truth to tell, I think the Americans have got it right on both counts. I mean, con-TROV-ersy ??????? Pleeeezzze .... Murray |
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01 Nov 02 - 07:38 PM (#816442) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Leadfingers Definately aluMINium.So there.But I dont know hot tp pronounce argument. |
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01 Nov 02 - 08:11 PM (#816464) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: greg stephens Brits are actually pretty evenly divided about where to put the stress in controversy. I say conTROversy, but others say the other. And to the best of my recollection, nobody considers that one way is an Americanism. You've got a free choice. But definitely only way to say aluMINium over here. |
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01 Nov 02 - 08:26 PM (#816482) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: mack/misophist It's my understanding that the house of Hanover had a significant affect of British pronunciation of English. Could it be that some of our differences stem from new pronunciations introduced by the Williamites and scorned in the colonies? |
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01 Nov 02 - 09:00 PM (#816513) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Jerry Rasmussen We used to recite a tongue twister when we were kids... keep repeating aluminum, linoleum after me... altogether now, speed it up. Don't try aluminium, though, you'll break the rhythm.. Jerry |
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01 Nov 02 - 09:07 PM (#816519) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: greg stephens who are these Williamite chappies and what are they to with Hanover.werent they all called George and were mad and spoke German or something |
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01 Nov 02 - 09:11 PM (#816523) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Jerry Rasmussen You Brits will just have to get with the shedule.. Jerry |
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01 Nov 02 - 09:17 PM (#816528) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: greg stephens |
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01 Nov 02 - 10:05 PM (#816552) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Sorcha My grandmother said "alumim". She also said "cimmammomm" and "chimbley" too...... |
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02 Nov 02 - 12:56 AM (#816624) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Hrothgar You can always fix the aluminum/aluminium thing by calling it refined bauxite. |
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02 Nov 02 - 01:15 AM (#816627) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Sorcha You're a kill-joy, Hrothgar! I like "almium" better. |
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02 Nov 02 - 03:13 AM (#816647) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Murray MacLeod Greg , you are of cporse correct that in Britain, CON-troversy is not regarded as an Americanism. The point is that in the USA, con-TROV-ersy is regarded as a British pronunciation. Perversely, con-TRIB-ute is standard American pronunciation, CON-trib-ute sounds strange to their ears. Oh well, enough of this, must get on with my schedule (skedule? shedule?) Murray |
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02 Nov 02 - 03:23 AM (#816652) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: GUEST,Boab ---Ah! --So it's aluminum, cadmum, barum, selenum, etc.,etc.. Methinks it a' stertit when yin o' thae early American schuil-maisters got it a wee kennin wrang! [Mind you, the American "maneuver"is an example of sheer common sense!] |
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02 Nov 02 - 04:02 AM (#816658) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: MudGuard In German, it is Aluminium. And the German word for controversy is "Kontroverse", and the stress is "KontroVERse" MudGuard |
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02 Nov 02 - 06:11 AM (#816692) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: RangerSteve In case there may not be enough versions of Aluminum on this thread, I knew someone who said "Alulimum" (pronounced "a LOO lim um". |
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02 Nov 02 - 08:16 AM (#816734) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bernard When originally discovered, it was called 'Aluminum', but some bright spark decided to confuse things by renaming it to fit in with the table of elements... Ho hum... |
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02 Nov 02 - 08:30 AM (#816738) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bernard Facts: source While aluminum was discovered by Hans Christian Oersted, Denmark, 1825 (impure form); most credit Wohler with isolating it in1827. Actually the ancient Greeks and Romans used alum (aluminum sulfate with potassium) in medicine and in dying. de Morveau recognized the base in alum in1761 and proposed it be called alumine. Lavoisier thought that alum was an oxide of this undiscovered metal. In 1807 Davy proposed the name alumium for this undiscovered metal, but it wasn't until 1827 that Wohler actually isolated aluminum, though an impure form was isolated by Oersted two years earlier. The new metal was called aluminum. Two years later it was changed to aluminium to conform with the "ium" in most other elements. American Chemical Society changed the spelling back to aluminum in 1925, which we still use. England and elsewhere in the world they still spell it aluminium. So if you hear someone say "al-u-min'-i-um foil" instead of aluminum foil, you'll know where it came from. |
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02 Nov 02 - 10:09 AM (#816801) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: katlaughing Very kewl! I knew I could count on you folks! Thanks! One things about controversy which no one has commented on, though, is when I hear Britspeak, I hear con TROv esy without the second "r." Any explanations? Is it regional, am I hearing wrongly? |
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02 Nov 02 - 12:05 PM (#816874) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Snuffy And we have sulPHur. Any more chemical differences? |
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02 Nov 02 - 12:55 PM (#816910) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: CarolC I defer to my Canadian husband on most matters of pronounciation (because I tend to prefer Canadian pronounciations myself), but there are a few Canadian pronounciations that I just can't bring myself to accept. Naturally, these are a source of endless amusement in this household. They have to do with the pronounciation of the letter "A" in such words as "pasta" and "pajama". |
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02 Nov 02 - 01:10 PM (#816929) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Mr Red You won't find "have a nice day" in the OED. That is to be found in the Oxford Book of Humour. |
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02 Nov 02 - 01:20 PM (#816939) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bernard Well, Kat, Britspeak has a lot to answer for (threadcreep alert!)... Did you know that the name 'Beauchamp' is pronounced 'beecham', but even wackier is 'Cholmondeley', which is pronounced 'chumley'?! There's loads more, but I'll let someone else have that pleasure now I've got the ball rolling!! |
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02 Nov 02 - 02:12 PM (#816970) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: weepiper Kat, the controvesy thing is part of the south-east English accent which is the closest thing to 'standard' English, used on BBC etc, familiar from newsreaders and so forth. A feature of this accent is that speakers don't pronounce 'post-vocalic R', so 'car' comes out as 'cah' and 'controversy' comes out as 'controvehsy'. People in the North and some other parts of England, and in Scotland, do pronounce these Rs. So it depends on where the speaker comes from. Interestingly pronouncing your post-vocalic Rs is seen as a low status marker here ('working class') whereas in the States it's the other way round - compare pronunciation of 'whore' as 'ho' in the States. |
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02 Nov 02 - 02:16 PM (#816973) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: GUEST,Q Data from "The Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 54th Ed., and the OED. Davy, the discoverer in 1812, first used Alumium, then settled on Aluminum (from the Latin word alumen, alum). In 1822, it was proposed in the Quart. Rev. that Aluminium be used "in preference to Aluminum, which has a less classical sound." Some writers preferred it because it fit with Sodium, etc. in spelling. Somehow, classical Latin scholars got into the argument, many of them coming out in favo(u)r of Aluminum. (Don't ask me why, my Latin was taught to me too long ago). In 1925, The American Chemical Society came out in support of Aluminum. In all American (I should say USA, Canada is bivalent) journals concerned with chemistry, and most American (USA) scientific journals in all fields, the use of Aluminum has been upheld and enforced by editorial boards. Aluminum thus continues to prevail in the USA. Elsewhere, Aluminium remains preferred. Now, there is always sulfur vs. sulphur .....! |
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02 Nov 02 - 02:21 PM (#816975) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: GUEST,Q Sorry, Bernard, I should have read your post but I missed it. You have many of the facts. Also you are correct about the discoverers, Davy was the one whose name was accepted. |
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02 Nov 02 - 03:03 PM (#817002) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Amos Trust those silly Victorians to get fancy about classical overtones!! Thanks for the historical tidbits on this age-old kohnTROVahsy, blokes.... A |
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02 Nov 02 - 03:04 PM (#817003) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: belfast It is impossible to sing Woody Guthrie's "Grand Coulee Dam" without using the American word. This is a perfectly valid reason for dumping the British version. |
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02 Nov 02 - 03:23 PM (#817016) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: GUEST,Q The OED supports CON-tro-ver-sy, just as it does recognize (rather than recognise). Remember, the OED reflects upper class usage ("Oxbridge"). |
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02 Nov 02 - 03:46 PM (#817020) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: GUEST,Q Pasta. The OED gives pae-sta which is pronounced pass-ta. They didn't add the word until the 1987 Supplement. Webster's Collegiate gives Pah-sta but also lists pass-ta. Southerners in the States tend to pass-ta. Many good Italian restaurants in my city, so I go with Pah-sta. More creepy thread- Here is a description from the OED, 1673, by a man named Ray: "Paste made into strings like pack-thread or thongs of whit-leather (which if greater they call Macaroni, if lesser Vermicelli) which they cut in pieces and put in their pots, as we do oat-meal to make their minestra or broth...." He was writing about a trip to the Low Countries, so one can imagine what the Dutch were doing with the stuff. |
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02 Nov 02 - 04:05 PM (#817023) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bernard Macaroni... didn't he invent the wireless (English for 'radio'!!)? ;o> |
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02 Nov 02 - 04:08 PM (#817028) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: GUEST,Q Not marzipani? |
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02 Nov 02 - 05:06 PM (#817066) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Barbara My grandparents were all Canadian, eh? (from Ontario) and the differences I am aware of include saying 'shedule' for 'skedule', 'Chewsday' for 'Tuesday', 'al-you-MIN-ium' for 'aluminum', 'zed' for the last letter of the alphabet, 'com-MENT' for 'COM-ment', and a number of items that were called by different names.Most embarrassing for me as a teen is that folded piece of cloth/paper that goes in the lap at meals; the Canadians call it a 'serviette', and they relegate 'napkin' to the sanitary and baby category. Blessings, Barbara |
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02 Nov 02 - 05:27 PM (#817074) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: catspaw49 It's interesting how we changed the language isn't it.....American laziness or whatever. By the time "Derby" got to Ohio and throeugh a few generations, it had become two words, one as Derby (dirby) and the other as Darby (dahrby). Even better is Worcester which wound up in Ohio as Wooster (Wuhster), but given a few more generations came to be pronounced "WOOOS-tir." In this neck of the woods we also tend to add in a consonant, simply slurring it. Phonetically, Wooster should have come out as WOO-stir, but we put the s on the end of the Woo and the t at the beginning of stir. I mention that because of aluminum. It seems that all words opening with a vowel here are immediately changed so that the vowel is pronounced "uh".....Like in Uh HI uh, more commonly written as a joke as Ahia but actually pronounced "Uh-HI-Uh. Add in the doubled up consonant break in the middle and ALUMINUM comes out "Uh-LOOM-minum." It a faint doubling, but if you listen, it's there, just a quick tongue flick for the second m. Spaw |
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02 Nov 02 - 05:35 PM (#817077) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: catspaw49 Oh yeah...a few favorites........ As you travel around the midwest check how people say these town names: Lima (Sorry, it's not Lee-mah, in Ohio it's Lye-muh) Versailles (yeah, you guessed it...Vur-Sales) Belefontaine (somehow this one becomes Bell-FOUNT-ton-note the doubled consonant) LaFayette (At least in Ohio our Lah-Fee-YET is better than Georgia where it's La-FAY-it) Spaw |
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02 Nov 02 - 07:18 PM (#817122) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bert It really should have the extra i, otherwise sodium would be Sod 'um. |
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02 Nov 02 - 09:32 PM (#817189) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: CarolC (P.S. I just said "pahjamah" to Mr. the Sailor, and he laughed at me ;-) |
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02 Nov 02 - 09:58 PM (#817195) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: GUEST,Q Yuh mean "pjs"? Or pie-jam-as or puh-jahm-uhs puh-jam-uhs or pee-jams? I think that one has a whole smear of pronunciations. Personally, I prefer a nightshirt. |
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02 Nov 02 - 10:35 PM (#817216) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: katlaughing LMAO! Thanks! I think I'd mentioned some back in New England which struck when we first moved back there, similar to some that Bernard mentioned: Chelmsford is Chums-fird, whereas in the West we would think it should be as spelled. Literal minded we might be, even though we all know the "proper" way to say Belle Fourche, South Dakota, is bel foosh, but NO one but a "dude" would say it that way. We all call it Bel-for-shay. Likewise Dubois should be doo-bwah but it comes out doo-boyz. Spaw, that is interesting! weepiper, not all in the US who drop that "r" are looked at as lower class. There are a bunch of New Englanders, at least that I know of, who say cah instead of car, etc. and are not looked down on. They also have that English habit of adding an "r" at the end of things!*bg* |
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03 Nov 02 - 08:36 AM (#817357) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Les from Hull I've heard that you say tomato and we say tomato. |
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03 Nov 02 - 10:49 AM (#817406) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Fingerbuster Have you encountered the salt line which demarcates the north of Britain from the south? ie; In the north "salt" is (generally) pronounced "solt" in the south it's (generally) pronounced "sawlt". There is a "Butter" line too |
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03 Nov 02 - 10:51 AM (#817407) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Mr Red Les - is that either way or either way? Bernard You didn't mention Farqueharsan and Culcuhoun (Fanshshaw and Culchurn). I am waiting for the controversial pronouce-iation of guerrilla (or yet the correct spelling). And while we are on spelling and correct language dare I prise open the can of worms - the one with the big Dubbya on the front. What is the correct spelling of Oasama (and by inference pronunciation). |
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03 Nov 02 - 11:46 AM (#817439) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: dick greenhaus Department of Utter Trivia- The first practical application for aluminum was in jewelry. The secand was for making horseshoes for race horces--Tiffany pioneered this application. |
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03 Nov 02 - 12:07 PM (#817453) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: CarolC Yes, Q, I didn't spell it the way I meant to. What I meant to spell was "puhjahmuhs". |
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03 Nov 02 - 07:16 PM (#817745) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: katlaughing In watching House Invaders on BBC America, today, they talked about washing down some kitchen cupboards to get rid of the grease and dirt. They said they used something that sounded like "sugar soap" or "sugar soak." The fellow wore gloves to use it and it seemed to work well and fast. Do any of you crossponders know what the haitch they were talking about?! Thanks! |
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03 Nov 02 - 07:38 PM (#817752) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: greg stephens Sugar soap is a very caustic and powerful cleaner (at a guess it's got some caustic soda/washing soda/sodium hudroxide in, but I dont know). You use it for cleaning paintwork in kitchens which gets grease on from cookers, and so on. There are also products sold in Body Shop type places called "vanilla and melon sugar soap" and so on, which are exactly what they say. It is obviously important to be clear which product you've got before you start using it, otherwise you might end up kind of blotchy. |
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03 Nov 02 - 07:46 PM (#817758) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bert Sugar soap is a high phosphate detergent, somewhat similar to TSP. |
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03 Nov 02 - 09:42 PM (#817826) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bob Bolton G'day Boab, You noted: "[Mind you, the American "maneuver"is an example of sheer common sense!]. Of course, you're getting dangerously close to the other English language word derived from the same Latin phrase: manus oper,/i> ... manure! Regard(les)s, Bob Bolton |
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03 Nov 02 - 10:01 PM (#817835) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: momnopp Funny -- I always thought my silly pronunciation of aluminum as aluMINium was merely an invention of my own. I had no idea it was an honest-to-goodness proper way to say it! (Really!) Guess I'm a closet Brit and I didn't even know it! :-) JudyO |
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03 Nov 02 - 10:29 PM (#817856) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: GUEST,voxfox My aunt (ahhnt) in England pronounces oregano as or re GHAN o . Took me a second to figure out what she was saying. She was not amused. She says AluMINium also, as did my Mum until she changed it after being in Canada for so many years. She still retains her English accent after all these years. VF |
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04 Nov 02 - 09:58 PM (#818640) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bob Bolton G'day voxfox, "...My aunt (ahhnt) in England pronounces oregano as or re GHAN o ..." Quite ... presumably she speaks English? (I'm presuming that your phoneticisation equates closely to that in my Oxford Dictionary ... which I can't reproduce as Mudcat may be lovely and inmproved ... but not to the extent of allowing typing in phonetic characters!) Regard(les)s, Bob Bolton |
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04 Nov 02 - 10:34 PM (#818661) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bill D on one TV program the other day, I heard two different men, both Brits, refer to the measurement of distance on the roads as "KILL-o-meters" and "Kill-AHM-aters" ...to my American ear, KILL-o-meters sounds awkward, but I guess it's all in what you grew up hearing. What I do object to is media folk who adamantly refuse to even attempt to learn the pronunciation of foreign words and keep calling Presidents, Kings, countries, states, etc, by names that make me cringe! I remember "Simon Bolliver" from my school days! (liberated S. America or something)...they do similar things to Osama bin Laden, ANY Spanish country/leader. One of the major things seems to be a rabid devotion to either long or short 'a' sounds...no matter HOW the natives want them pronounced. The use or dis-use of 'r's is a close 2nd! (some manage to milk an 'rrrrrrrr' for several seconds, others ignore it...*grin*) |
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05 Nov 02 - 03:34 AM (#818796) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bob Bolton G'day Bill, Interestingly, I always pronounced "kilometres" as (~) kil-om-metters - approximating the pronunciations from my high school French. It was only when 'metrication' was seriously adopted in Australia - and the long term Liberal (ultra-conservative) Party government temporarily ousted by the Labor Party - that the Official pronunciation became "kill-O-meters" ... And that was claimed to be because that was the "International" (read "American") pronunciation ... and even then, Prime Minister Gough Whitlam - a classicist (and Graecist) of note always preferred the pronuciation with which i was familiar! Regards, Bob Bolton |
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05 Nov 02 - 03:43 AM (#818804) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Hrothgar Nobody wanted to explain to Gough that he might just possibly be wrong. |
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05 Nov 02 - 04:19 AM (#818817) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bert A Kilo-meter is a thousand meters. A Kill-ometer is an instrument for measuring kills. |
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05 Nov 02 - 04:44 AM (#818833) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: sian, west wales OK, how do you pronounce: inventory? clematis? junta? The British seem to pronounce them differently to how we did in Canada. And how do the Muricuns say "Brynmawr". Seems to me it had ... evolved? ... from the original Welsh. sian |
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05 Nov 02 - 05:09 AM (#818849) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Mr Happy north west eng: kilometres is 'killermeters' someone i knew used to say 'sillylitres' when he meant centilitres. also recall in the 70's people commenting how they didnt like the money being 'decimated' |
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05 Nov 02 - 05:28 AM (#818861) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Nigel Parsons Mr Red: surely the spelling for 'Fanshaw' is Featherstonehough ! Nigel |
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05 Nov 02 - 05:36 AM (#818867) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: katlaughing Sian, Out west we would say inventory - INN ven toree clematis - kleh MA tis (the MA is as in matter) junta - hoon tah (lots of Spanish influence out here, plus I've had it in school:-) Some of my in-laws (not lahrs!) live near Brin mar.*bg* Now, how do YOU pronounce them? |
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05 Nov 02 - 06:07 AM (#818878) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: sian, west wales Well, I pronounce them as you do, kat. But I've heard inVENTree (also, INven-tree if memory serves), CLEMatis and JUN ta over here. Also, in Canada, clemATEis. Several of my friends get on my case over oREGano too. I must admit that oreGANo sounds more Italian ... Let's see if any born-and-bred Brits come back on this one. sian |
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05 Nov 02 - 06:15 AM (#818884) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bagpuss I seem to remember learning that in general, rhotic accents (ie ones that pronounce non leading 'r's) are in rural areas, and non-rhotic ones are from urban areas. This is in England, and I think the opposite is true in the US? I say inVENtory, clemAYtis, HUNta (with the h pronounced as a spanish J) and oreGAHno. Oh, and jammies, jahmas or jim-jams(for pajamas) Bagpuss |
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05 Nov 02 - 07:06 AM (#818912) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: robinia Personally I like perSEverance; note that with this pronounciation you have no impulse to write "perserverance" ... |
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05 Nov 02 - 07:32 AM (#818914) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: HuwG How do I pronounce "kilometers" ? Easy - "K's" (or "Kays") If really pushed, I'll go along with Mr Happy's "killermeters". Sian from West Wales, how do I pronounce: inventory ? "Catalogue" (or "Catalog" in US-speak or computer-speak) clematis? "Triffid" (Well, it is that climbing thing that tries to entrap me every time I walk past it). junta? Usually, "Djunta" i.e. with a "j" as in "jug". "Hunta", only if I'm showing off Oh, and in my opinion, "Brin mar" has devolved, not evolved from "Brynmawr". (I cannot hear about a devolution debate without giggling, ever since I was tasked at work with devolving some computer control system from the server to the clients. It didn't look good on my timesheets that I spent four weeks devolving. I didn't say, into what. |
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05 Nov 02 - 09:16 AM (#818961) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Snuffy INventry CLEmatis JUNta oreGAHno CLOmeter |
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05 Nov 02 - 04:23 PM (#819300) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Penny S. I always find missile, hostile, and laboratory to have interesting variations. When I hear Americans use them, I always have to decode, even if the context does not suggest Catholic prayer books, places for temporary stays, and toilets to be appropriate. And then there's buoys. Do people talk about booeeancy when discussing flotation? Penny |
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05 Nov 02 - 05:08 PM (#819344) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bill D (my wife reminds me that in England years ago, she could not get a glass of H2O until she said ...approximately..."wawo-tah") she KNEW that the waitress was intentionally misunderstanding her, but....... |
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05 Nov 02 - 10:44 PM (#819570) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bert That depends where she was in England. In London it used to be Worta. |
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05 Nov 02 - 11:08 PM (#819589) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: GUEST,Q Let's all sing the chorus: Al-u-MIN-e-um! Al-u-MIN-e-um! etc. Or Al-YEW min-um! Al-YEW-min-um! etc. (Pulling the hole in after me) |
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05 Nov 02 - 11:43 PM (#819611) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bill D "...In London it used to be Worta." would that be south London, north London....or...... I neve saw such variation in accents in a small area. |
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06 Nov 02 - 07:18 AM (#819765) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: HuwG If you search through Tom Lehrer's Elements Song, you will note that "aluminum" is the odd one out; there is no other element (other than "lanthanum", which is the same both sides of the Atlantic) pronounced in the US as "somethingum", rather than "somethingium". I have to admit that I would have difficulty in pronouncing "rubidum", "osmum", "helum", "ytterbum" or "sodum" while keeping a straight face. Has anyone any idea when, where and why the American chemists dropped the "i" from "aluminium" (or was it we hide-bound Brits who put it into "aluminum") ? |
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06 Nov 02 - 07:21 AM (#819767) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: HuwG Ooops ! I forgot that the spelling of "molybdenum" is the same in both the English-speaking and American-speaking worlds also, before you all pounce on my lapse. |
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06 Nov 02 - 11:52 AM (#819991) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: HuwG And "tantalum". |
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06 Nov 02 - 12:47 PM (#820047) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: katlaughing Didn't read the whole thread, eh, HuwG?**BG** (Just teasin'.) Here's an earlier post which answers your question: Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bernard - PM Date: 02 Nov 02 - 08:30 AM In The Mudcat Shop: Davy Facts: source While aluminum was discovered by Hans Christian Oersted, Denmark, 1825 (impure form); most credit Wohler with isolating it in1827. Actually the ancient Greeks and Romans used alum (aluminum sulfate with potassium) in medicine and in dying. de Morveau recognized the base in alum in1761 and proposed it be called alumine. Lavoisier thought that alum was an oxide of this undiscovered metal. In 1807 Davy proposed the name alumium for this undiscovered metal, but it wasn't until 1827 that Wohler actually isolated aluminum, though an impure form was isolated by Oersted two years earlier. The new metal was called aluminum. Two years later it was changed to aluminium to conform with the "ium" in most other elements. American Chemical Society changed the spelling back to aluminum in 1925, which we still use. England and elsewhere in the world they still spell it aluminium. So if you hear someone say "al-u-min'-i-um foil" instead of aluminum foil, you'll know where it came from. |
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06 Nov 02 - 01:20 PM (#820082) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Stephen L. Rich Idiomatically speaking, both versions of the language are a bit odd in spots. Consider that, on either side of the pond, a "slim chance" and a "fat chance" are the same thing. Stephen Lee |
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06 Nov 02 - 01:27 PM (#820087) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bert Neither Bill, It is from The East End and of course the t would really be a glottal stop. |
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06 Nov 02 - 01:32 PM (#820092) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: HuwG katlaughing, thank you, that was interesting and informative. How about renaming it to "Kitchenfoilium" (Symbol, Ki) ? Looking back over my posts, I wonder why "Tantalum" is not spelt or pronounced "tantalium". I know it is named after a character in Greek mythology - Tantalus, who for a punishment was immersed in a river in Hell while bunches of grapes waved just over his head. Every time he tried to pick a grape, the vines were pulled up out of reach and every time he bent to drink, the river dried up. Hence, "tantalising". No doubt Tantalum got this name because it is such an awkward element to separate and isolate (in most ores, it forms a stoichiometric series of compounds with Niobium - no, don't ask). In this case, British and other usage may have followed US practice. I will go home and dig out the copy of "Rutleys" which I last used over twenty years ago. |
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06 Nov 02 - 03:43 PM (#820208) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: katlaughing HuwG, thank you! Great to have the old memory of mythology refreshed. I look forward to hearing what you find in your references. Would someone please tell me where the slang name for policeman, rozzers came from? |
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06 Nov 02 - 09:26 PM (#820421) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bill D stuff on 'rozzer' etc |
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06 Nov 02 - 09:33 PM (#820426) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bill D More!...and even more interesting because it tells me where that phrase from Mad Magazine came from (back in the 60s) "it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide" |
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06 Nov 02 - 10:41 PM (#820458) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: katlaughing LMAO, BillD!! Thank yew, kind sir! |
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06 Nov 02 - 11:33 PM (#820482) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: GUEST,Q Oregano is Spanish (Mexican), so it is pronounced O-RAY-gan-o by us connoisseurs. Can't make chili without it. O-re-GAN-o, I imagine on a percentage basis, would win hands down in Canada (and the non-Latin world?). To say wild marjoram just ain't upscale enough. We used to say ki-LOM-e-ter But as Bob Bolton said, when they revised the metrics and adopted them in Canada, it became kil-o MEAT-er (-tre). Being American originally, I still say miles. As do the rest of the Americans since they haven't adopted metrics (the real Americans, the Bush men). The Mexicans had the metric system a long time ago, and have kept ki-LOM-e-tre- never could pronounce that -tre. Rozzer- First appeared in print in 1893 in England, but probably mid-or early Victorian. It is not in the dictionaries of cant and flash language of 1750-1811, but "pig" for policeman is there in a dictionary of 1854. Was there a policeman named Ross? Who knows? Always heard boy-an-cy for buoyancy in US and Canada. The "-ile" words, such as hostile, show a definite break with British-Canadian usage. Hos-tul in the US, hos-tile elsewhere. Penny S, you are right, missile-missul-missal is an odd one. I have heard a few people substitute mis-uled for misled. LAB-o-ra-tory (US) versus La-BOR-a-tory (Can.) versus something like La-BOR-a-try(tery) in England (How can an Englishman be a Tory when he can't pronounce -tory when it is attached to a root word?) Why isn't centre pronounced cen-try? Why isn't butter buttre? 'Tis a puzzlement. |
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06 Nov 02 - 11:38 PM (#820486) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bert How can an Englishman be a Tory if he has the slightest intelligence? |
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07 Nov 02 - 06:18 AM (#820595) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: HuwG I hope you haven't got the wrong idea, katlaughing. By "Rutleys", I mean "Rutley's Elements of Mineralogy", ed. H.H. Read, the standard reference book for minerals; nothing to do with mythology. In any case, I clean forgot that I wouldn't have time last night to look up anything; I went to a singaround in Glossop Labour Club and didn't escape till the small hours. I made a right pig's ear of "The Band played Waltzing Matilda" - new guitar technique didn't quite work, but was very much cheered up when another player, far better than I am, got halfway through "The green Fields of France" and dried completely. Sorry, Mr. Bogle. Out on the tiles again tonight, will try and remember "Rutley's" later. Might also have a go with Gilchrist's "Extraction Metallurgy", another long-disused relic from University. |
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07 Nov 02 - 06:30 AM (#820603) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: GUEST,Mr Red being lazy Bill D In the UK we listen to radio programmes but we do write computer programs I saw a job ad by a publishing company assk for a person to work in different mediums turned the page and another publishing company was using a slogan like Media Maestro's gazing into my crystal ball I hit on the notion (and stiking a happy medium?) I predict that mediums will soon refer to a multiplicity of mediums and media will be the publishing/broadcasting. TV (eg) will be a media - come to think about it we are on the cusp now. I guess it depends on whether you are media oriented or mediums orientated. |
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07 Nov 02 - 06:31 AM (#820604) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: GUEST |
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07 Nov 02 - 07:14 AM (#820626) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bob Bolton G'day again GUEST,Q, "... but "pig" for policeman is there in a dictionary of 1854. ..." Actually, "Pig" = A police officer ... a Bow Street officer ... &c appears in the 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue, London - based on Capt. Francis Groses' 1785 original ... as does "Screw" = To copulate ... a female prostitute ... &c. These are typical examples of older English slang preserved in an ex-colonial country, such as America ... when they have been long-forgotten in their country of origon. Most English regard them as "American neologisms", which they first saw in American novels from the 1930s on. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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07 Nov 02 - 09:22 AM (#820689) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: katlaughing HuwG, that's right, I didn't think it was about mythology, sorry I wasn't clear about it. I love mineralogy and so enjoy hearing about it, too! Most interesting, all of you! I realised last night, as I picked up my latest Anne Perry novel, that I had not heard rozzer on BBC America; I'd read it, in use, in her books of Victorian England. I wondered as my Rog said he didn't recall hearing it on tv. My mistake, but i guess it does show good research on her part. I love it when you all start digging through your resources and post the information! It is such a wonderful education and all right here at the Mudcat! Thanks! katwhosayskillOMmetur:-) |
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07 Nov 02 - 09:48 AM (#820708) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Nigel Parsons HuwG: of course a Tantalus is also a container (usually antique) containing decanters of liquid (usually spirits) which, although in full view, can only be unstoppered if the tantalus is unlocked. The derivation is the same. bert: "How can an Englishman be a Tory if he has the slightest intelligence? " With difficulty, if he has 'the slightest intelligence' he should vote Labour! With normal, or greater intelligence then he may vote Conservative. Nigel |
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07 Nov 02 - 09:53 AM (#820713) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Nigel Parsons For a picture of an antique Tantalus see here and scroll down half a page Nigel |
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07 Nov 02 - 12:21 PM (#820816) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Bert Aaaargh! ya got me Nigel! |
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07 Nov 02 - 03:40 PM (#820994) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: GUEST,Q Tantalos(us), son of Zeus and Pluto, father of Niobe (niobium), divulged secrets entrusted to him by Zeus, who punished him by inflicting him with a raging thirst. Tantalos was placed in the midst of a lake, whose waters receded from him as soon as he attempted to drink. Apparently this story did not give rise to the song, "If the ocean was whiskey and I was a duck...." Niobium prevailed over Columbium as the name for the element. Niobe, who had many children, considered herself superior to Leto, who only had two, Apollo and Artemis (Diana). These two children, angered, slew all of Niobe's children. Palladium, named for the asteroid Pallas, in turn named for Pallas, the goddess of wisdom, etc. etc. Lanthanum, from Gk. lanthanein, to be hidden. Much of the argument over the terminations -ium and -um came from grammatical interpretations of how Greek words should be brought into English use. I remember vaguely a lecture on this in which a professor said aluminium was incorrect and indicative of ignorance of the rules. Since I was in chemical studies at the time, I remember some of these statements, but the grammatical reasons were lost to me within seconds of hearing them. Whether the prof was right or wrong, I don't think any of us cared. "Pig"- I mistyped 1854 for 1754. Capt Grose first put out his dictionary in 1785, but the word (I have been told- not seen this work) appeared in "The Scoundrels Dictionary" of 1754. |
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07 Nov 02 - 05:56 PM (#821103) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Murray MacLeod One for the grammar police : With reference to Mr Red's post above, if two people with psychic ability were to encounter each other, would it be the meeting of two media, or two mediums? I know the answer, I just want to see the contortions .... (Usual apologies for thread creep) Murray |
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08 Nov 02 - 08:59 AM (#821377) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: HuwG Guest Q has beaten me to the draw with the derivation of "Lanthanum". I would assume that "Tantalos", to use the Greek form, is pronounced, "Tant-ah-los", rather than "Tant-ay-los", and "Tant-ah-lum" therefore involves no major change of pronunciation, where "Tant-ay-lium" would. "Molybdenum"; now, Rutley's wasn't very forthcoming about the origins of its name. Rutley's is primarily a field and laboratory guide (and my copy bears ample evidence of having been well-used in both settings), written on the assumption that a geologist needs to spot it in the wild and test for its presence in the lab, but not waste time musing over its etymology. However, an old (1920) dictionary, gives it as being derived from the Greek, "molybdenaios" which in turn is a form of (or perhaps a quality of) "molybdos", their word for "plumbago" [Yes, yes, the Greeks had a word for it. OK]. Plumbago is a form of naturally occurring graphite. The most famous deposits of these are in the Langdale Fells in the Lake District in the UK. However, there are smaller deposits of the stuff around. The Greeks presumably performed a "streak test", which involves smearing a sample of the mineral on a rough surface like the back of a bathroom tile* to test the colour of the powdered sample, useful for distinguishing gold from pyrite ("Fools' gold") for example. The mineral Molybdenite, MoS2, has a similar black streak to that of graphite, and looks about the same, especially when it occurs in impure form, mixed up with various other iron and copper sulphides. There are lots of chemical and other tests which distinguish the two, but it would be this property which the Greeks would have used to classify or use molybdenite. * The Greeks may not have had bathroom tiles even if the damn' things turn up everywhere you start digging, but could have used broken pieces of Greek urn for the same purpose. The "streak" of gold is gold (of course), while that of pyrite is black. I will have to post further, once I find out the derivation of "plumbago". Could the ancients have thought that it had properties similar to that of Lead (latin, "plumbum") ? |
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08 Nov 02 - 09:42 AM (#821406) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: katlaughing Amazing...here's what plumbago looks like in my house: please click!*bg* Keep posting, folks, this is wonderful! kat |
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08 Nov 02 - 01:53 PM (#821625) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: GUEST,Q HuwG, you are on the right track. The word is from the Gk. molybdos, lead. Plumbago is an old term for graphite. "Before Scheele recognized molybdenite as a distinct ore of a new element in 1778, it was confused with graphite and lead ore. The metal was prepared in an impure form in 1782 by Hjelm." The name commemorates the old confusion. This from the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 54th ed. (1974), Chemical Rubber Company Handbook Series.. The quarto book weighs many pounds. Most chemistry students would buy a copy for reference. This means that used copies are common and cheap. The basic info. stays the same for years, so an old copy is a handy addition to your library. The book contains several sections (1974 ed.): A Mathematical Tables. Logarithms, trig functions, all the good stuff. 192 pp. B The elements and inorganic compounds (many, many thousands) and all properties, such as solubility, x-ray properties and other stuff. The company also publishes handbooks on Food Additives, Lasers, Microbiology, Clinical Laboratory Procedures, Flavor Ingredients, and who knows what else at this point in time. 555pp. C Organic compounds. 775 pp. in 1974, and it was growing rapidly. D General chemistry. 246 pp. E General Physical Constants. 247 pp. F Miscellaneous. All sorts of stuff. Physical properties of pigments (useful for artists), formulas, wire gauges, all the facts about the Earth, Constants for satellite geodesy, chemical composition of rocks, conversion factors and a hundred other headings. 309 pp. |
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08 Nov 02 - 01:58 PM (#821632) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: GUEST,Q Misplaced sentence in my post. The sentence, 'The Company also publishes....." belongs at the end. Sec. B is 555 pp. |
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09 Nov 02 - 12:33 PM (#822290) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: jimmyt My first driving trip to England, I tried to get in step with the pronounciations of various cities, (helps when getting driving directions!) After muddling either Worcester or Gloucester I thought I had it figured out until asking driving time to CRINSTER in the Cotswolds, only to have the gentleman smile and shake his head at my stupidity, saying, Oh you mean Cirencester. Go figure! You can't win! I gues the thing is,. you may call something anything you want as long as other people know what you are referring to. We have a local town that is called Lafayette pronounced Luh FAY et, in stead of the usual way. Same thing in south Georgia, I used to live in Houston county, called locally HOW sten. I was asking directions in Atlanta when I first moved here for Ponce De Leon Street! Imagine my surprise when the guy said, Oh you mean Ponce Du LEE awn |
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11 Nov 02 - 08:47 AM (#823260) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: HuwG GUEST, Q, thanks for your comments. I haven't had time this weekend to do much research on derivation of element names. I recall from a long time ago having trouble with the tests to distinguish rare earths, ("Lanthanides"), and we students described a potmess of Yttrium, Erbium and Ytterbium, all from the same quarry at Ytterby in Sweden, as the element, "Utterbunkum" I now hear material scientists and nuclear physicists all demanding larger and purer samples of "Unobtanium". I presume this is the US spelling also ? Jimmyt, a friend of mine once backpacked in Australia, and took a temporary job in a postal sorting office. She came across a letter to the UK which the Australian posties were having trouble with. They couldn't find anyone who knew where LOOGABAROOGA was. The letter was addressed to LOUGHBOROUGH. |
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11 Nov 02 - 09:49 AM (#823308) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: katlaughing LMAO, that's a good one! Another question, over here we always saw nawt-zee (nazi), but I always hear nat-zee on the BBC. The harsh "a" sounds so strange when it seems the norm "over there" is the other? So...how does one know whether it will be one way or the other? There was anotehr but I can't think what it was at the moment.:-) |
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11 Nov 02 - 07:16 PM (#823734) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Snuffy Nasty/Nazi - not much difference |
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12 Nov 02 - 07:01 PM (#824644) Subject: RE: BS: AluMINium or ALUminum -more fun! From: Penny S. Hey, jimmyt, a new pronounciation for Ciceter, Cister, Cissester and Ciren! You really picked a good one to get wrong - probably the smile was because its notorious as none of the others are, not because of your tranatlantic ignorance. Everyone gets it wrong in someone's ears. Penny |