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14 Nov 02 - 09:54 AM (#825796) Subject: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Willie-O If I was an American I would be very very alarmed about this.... You Are a Suspect By WILLIAM SAFIRE It's a NY Times Op-Ed piece. |
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14 Nov 02 - 10:19 AM (#825826) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Amos Safire oversimplifies the Contra-Iran story, but that's beside the point. Bushbrains has really surrounded himself with the most unsavory fascistic people he could find. Wodda maroon. THis is grimly reminiscent of the beginnings of the Reich and the dawning of the USSR. I predict ther eis going to be a backlash, and I admire afire's guts in standing up and getting it said. A |
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14 Nov 02 - 10:45 AM (#825859) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: GUEST William Safire, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and virtually every other supposedly "legitimate" news organization in the United States, as good as ignored the pardons of the key Iran-Contra figures who could have testified about George Herbert Walker Bush's involvement as Vice President and former director of the CIA, in supplying arms to the Nicaraguan contras through CIA offices in San Salvador, in violation of the Congressional order of 1984, expressly prohibiting it. The complicity of the news media with the Reagan/Bush administrations' illegal activities involving Iran Contra is still, to this day, appalling beyond belief. Not only do we get the government we deserve, but we get the double standards from the media we deserve. Voting "centrist and moderate" means voting for Republicans and New Democrat Republicans, who are "moderately" stripping us of our civil rights, a few at a time. Keep voting and shopping without conscience, Americans, and this is YOUR WORLD! Here is hoping Nancy Pelosi actually is willing to, and capable of, turning the nation a hard left. Because if she, as House Minority leader can't do it, no one can. Canada is looking better all the time. |
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14 Nov 02 - 11:21 AM (#825896) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Peter T. Hard to believe this guy Poindexter is still around, and still causing mayhem. This was always the soft underbelly of the "Homeland Security" department. What you want above all in a democracy is inefficient information gathering, spread out among many competing departments. yours, Peter T. |
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14 Nov 02 - 12:05 PM (#825935) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: katlaughing Thanks, Willie-O. I didn't know that's where Poindexter was nor what he's been up to. It IS alarming. I just sent it to the Colorado congressional members, though it probably won't matter much as they are all GOP, with this message: We find it outrageous that Thank you. |
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14 Nov 02 - 12:12 PM (#825941) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Peter T. If I remember my Iraqgate trivia, his name is John Poindexter. yours, Peter T. |
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14 Nov 02 - 01:34 PM (#826012) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Don Firth Interesting (i.e., appalling) background stuff HERE. Forget Hussein. Forget bin Laden. The biggest danger is right here at home! Don Firth |
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14 Nov 02 - 01:50 PM (#826029) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: GUEST Don Firth--DUDE! That is one helluva website! Bushie Boy's military service, interesting! Thanks for the link. This is rather dull by comparison, but folks should check out FAIR's website (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting) for lots of information on the Reagan/Bush to Bush/Cheney connections. |
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14 Nov 02 - 03:58 PM (#826178) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: curmudgeon If Willie-O's message was alarming, Don's just added to it. This thread needs to get more attention here as well as in the world. We in NH are also afflicted with an overabundance of Republicans in Congress. However, one of the new ones tends to be "moderate." Once he's ensconced with an email presence, I will post these obscenities to him. This really does constirute a clear and present danger -- Tom |
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14 Nov 02 - 04:13 PM (#826201) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: katlaughing Thank you, Peter. I don't even know where the "William" came from; now, the ones I sent that to probably think I am an idjit! This is making those grocery cards look tame, comparitively. Question: besides telling our friends, contacting the media, and our congresspeople and urging them to do something about this, what can we do about the records that are already out there? I've noticed, since we bought a house, that we are getting tons more junk mail, we get prescriptions filled, pay by check and credit card (was cash only until 1996), and all of those other things which makes us part of the big Data Bank. How do we reduce that without selling the house and taking on new identities? Is it possible to do so? Meanwhile, the senate is getting ready to give Bush a victory on the Homeland Security bill. This is fucked up. |
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14 Nov 02 - 04:23 PM (#826211) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: curmudgeon Considering the fact that all this is essentially "fait a accomplis," we probably need to get behind the ACLU in any and every way we can -- Tom |
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14 Nov 02 - 04:36 PM (#826221) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: katlaughing You're right, Tom. I am also going to write to moveon. org and ask them to start a petition drive. TIPS got stomped on because people protested. We need to do the same with this. |
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14 Nov 02 - 06:57 PM (#826361) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Greg F. Glad to see the Cheka is alive and well and headquartered at the Department of Defense. Sure makes me feel secure. If Nixon's old buddy & apologist Bill Safire is concerned, better bend over & kiss your a$$es goodbye- |
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14 Nov 02 - 10:34 PM (#826521) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: DougR Not to worry. It will never happen IMO. DougR |
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15 Nov 02 - 09:14 AM (#826828) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Peter T. They are coming for you first, DougR. "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance".....yours, Peter T. |
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15 Nov 02 - 09:49 AM (#826850) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Mark Clark Willie-O, Any houses for sale on your block? If Safire is correct, that Poindexter's budget is $200 million USD, that may be some comfort. That isn't enough money to, san, install an prepackaged ERP system for a single Fortune 500 company. - Mark |
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15 Nov 02 - 10:31 AM (#826891) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: EBarnacle1 But the data will still be archived and available somewhere. Even if it only gets activated in the event you or one of your contacts makes the Enemies List or apply for a government job, any suggestion of a private life is becoming less likely. I find it interesting that Safire, a voice for the Right, is writing this. Is it possible that both sides might rise up and crush this latest invasion? Poindexter's last citation in the piece is right out of Orwell. Doublespeak--hah! |
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15 Nov 02 - 10:59 AM (#826915) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: katlaughing Did anyone scroll down and click on the bit about James Baker watching the events of 9-11, as they happened, with members of the Bin Laden family at the Ritz-Carlton in Washington D.C.?! |
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15 Nov 02 - 12:13 PM (#826970) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: katlaughing There is another interesting article on this in today's Washington Times, www.washtimes.com. It looks as though there is still some time to contact senators and voice our opposition. Here is an excerpt: "There is a great danger in this provision. It gives carte blanche to eavesdrop on Americans on the flimsiest of evidence, if any evidence at all," said Phil Kent, president of the Southeastern Legal Foundation. Mr. Kent called the provision "an unprecedented electronic dragnet." "I think it's the most sweeping threat to civil liberties since Japanese-American internment," Mr. Kent said. Mr. Kent and outgoing Rep. Bob Barr, Georgia Republican, are lobbying the Senate to remove this and other provisions they say are a threat to civil liberties and restrict the public's right to know of government activities. "In defense of members of Congress, many don't read the whole legislation and very few people read the fine print," said Mr. Barr. "You would think the Pentagon planning a system to peek at personal data would get a little more attention. "It's outrageous, it really is outrageous," Mr. Barr said. |
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15 Nov 02 - 01:48 PM (#827062) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Ebbie Given your usual habit of penetrating skepticism regarding this administration's mind set, DougR, your opinion on this matter is comforting, indeed. :) |
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15 Nov 02 - 02:05 PM (#827080) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: M.Ted $200 million to create files on 300 million people, that is less than $0.67 to set up each file, not enough to give any of our files the time that they deserve;-) I am disturbed that Poindexter is still around, but I don't think the problems will come from his systematic encroachment on our freedoms--the problems will come from from the fact that it is totally impossible to manage, let alone interpret, all the data that will be gathered, and that many important resources will be wasted in the attempt-- The other thing is that when people(especially bureaucrats) are given tasks that are unmanagable, they create all kinds of distractions(imaginary crises and other such hobgoblins) to conceal their failures, and we end up dealing with all that, rather than original, and very real, threat-- |
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15 Nov 02 - 02:10 PM (#827083) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: katlaughing In the meantime over $200 BILLION was spent on this past election. I think that is one advertising budget which needs to be drastically reduced; it obviously didn't work with only 39% voter turnout! |
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15 Nov 02 - 03:18 PM (#827164) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: NicoleC Because that money wasn't spent to get people to turn out and vote. It was ad money spent to get to people to either ignore the issues at hand in favor or evoking some sort of emotion, to get the people that DO vote to vote for the person who's name they've heard the most, or to hate both major candidates so much they don't bother to vote. When was the last time you saw a polical ad that defined a candidate's position on an issue, why they felt that way and what they wanted to do to fix/change/maintain it, instead of talking about how the other candidate was wrong? $200 million may be a joke, but it's not a bad first year budget to START the project. What are they going to spend to complete the project, maintain it, and how much money will get hidden in other departmental budgets is the question. If the FBI mines the database for information, the FBI budget will contain the labor costs, etc. Sadly, our intelligence agencies already collect more information than they can possibly absorb. An efficient data mining system has the potential to be horrifying. Right now I'm working on automated quality control measures to assign a reliability/risk factor to vendors we might place orders with based on past performance. If the risk factor gets too high, they get red-tagged not to use them. How'd you like your government datafile to automatically assign a "risk factor" to your profile, and if the risk gets too high, you're red-tagged for monitoring or questioning? Maybe they'll call it a "patriotism" meter. Who decides what's risky? Does a police officer get to ding your file if they think you were rude when they stopped you for speeding? Who decides what's patriotic? Will potential employers get access to your file? How about creditors? Yikes. Only fascists should find this kind of "security" comforting. Or people who believe that government us, by nature, always trustworthy and wouldn't EVER violate the public trust. Ha! |
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15 Nov 02 - 07:30 PM (#827422) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: DougR Thank you Ebbie, I'm glad I was able to bring you comfort. :>) DougR |
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15 Nov 02 - 08:46 PM (#827499) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Ebbie :) |
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16 Nov 02 - 09:40 AM (#827674) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: GUEST Well, this data dragnetting will end up in the Dept of Homeland Security to be sure, and as Nicole points out, the $200 million is likely just the money for ordering paper clips and staples. Not only is there the danger of abuse (the system is set up to BE a flagrant violation of civil liberties, and will, I guarantee you, end up before the Republican Supreme Court who will likely approve it). But with the job protections for federal workers thrown out the window, and the whistleblower laws so pathetically weak, there will be no checks and balances whatsoever. The FBI agent who blew the whistle on higher ups in Washington DC for not taking the warnings from her field office seriously about terrorist activity, has since been fired (not much national media coverage on that one, though was there). We also know that the worst of all this is the departments with access to the files will not only be incompetently managed, politically motivated, and without any checks and balances--they will destroy many, many innocent people's lives before the pendulum swings back the other way. We do need to keep in mind that the majority of Americans are idiots, who don't even know what the Bill of Rights is, much less why we need one. They are too busy shopping and eating junk food and watching wrestling and Victoria Secrets models dancing in their underwear. |
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16 Nov 02 - 09:43 AM (#827677) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: GUEST Oh, and the Washington Post has this story this morning too: Bush Aides Consider Domestic Spy Agency By Dana Priest and Dan Eggen Washington Post Staff Writers Saturday, November 16, 2002; Page A01 President Bush's top national security advisers have begun discussing the creation of a new, domestic intelligence agency that would take over responsibility for counterterrorism spying and analysis from the FBI, according to U.S. government officials and intelligence experts. |
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16 Nov 02 - 10:04 AM (#827683) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: GUEST But for those who use cash and leave no trail this will solve nothing. Maybe the system might catch some crimminals, but the vast majority of trained terrorists will slip through undetected. However the massive ammounts of time and money wasted on this type of surveillance (not to mention staff) will impress a beurocracy gone mad. |
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16 Nov 02 - 10:40 AM (#827687) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Willie-O Less than a buck a file! Whatta deal for the U S A! Given the amount of ruckus this story seems to stir up, it sure is buried in the media. It's always a red-flag to me when a prominent right-winger public denounces a right-wing plan or program, but I guess there's been so much of that with the Iraq invasion plan that it's already becoming routine. Yup, another agency to spy on Americans inside the country, and presumably to spy on the FBI. That's definitely what you need. And well, Mark, real estate is pretty cheap here by your standards. W-O |
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16 Nov 02 - 10:42 AM (#827688) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: GUEST I was thinking the same Willie-O. It isn't often I find myself on the same side of an issue with Bob Barr! |
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16 Nov 02 - 10:51 AM (#827694) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Bobert Well, danged, like what's new. I've been saying all along that this regime is gonna be tough to rout out. And don't be too danged surprised to find "martial law" coming down the pike and then Bush calling off elections. Remember Alexander Haig? These scenerios, while sounding absolutely bizarre, are qutie possible under these redneck reactionaries who have highjacked democracy. Yeah, I'm hoping that the progressive Dems circle the wagons and shoot it out here and now but don't have too much faith that they will. And with a rubber stamp Howdy Doody Supreme Court, don't expect them to satnd up for the Bill of Rights. It won't happen! I'd suggest that everyone here take a few minutes to get an email off to your reps so at least they will know that a few folks are watching. I would also suggest a letter to the House minority leader, Nancy Pelosi for good measure. Bobert |
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16 Nov 02 - 01:50 PM (#827842) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Amos http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61549-2002Nov15.html Bush Aides Consider Domestic Spy Agency By Dana Priest and Dan Eggen Washington Post Staff Writers Saturday, November 16, 2002; Page A01 President Bush's top national security advisers have begun discussing the creation of a new, domestic intelligence agency that would take over responsibility for counterterrorism spying and analysis from the FBI, according to U.S. government officials and intelligence experts. The high-level debate reflects a widespread concern that the FBI has been unable to transform itself from a law enforcement agency into an intelligence-gathering unit able to detect and thwart terrorist plans in the United States. The FBI has admitted it has not yet completed the cultural sea change necessary to turn its agents into spies, but the creation of a new agency is firmly opposed by FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III, who has said he believes the bureau can do the job. On Veterans Day, top national security officials gathered for two hours to discuss the issue in a meeting chaired by national security adviser Condoleezza Rice. White House Chief of Staff Andrew H. Card Jr., Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, CIA Director George J. Tenet, Attorney General John D. Ashcroft, Mueller and six others attended. [...] |
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16 Nov 02 - 02:28 PM (#827857) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Don Firth There's a helluva lot going on in this country and the world in general that never makes the news. And not because it isn't newsworthy. An informed electorate could be a dangerous thing. Farewell, Freedom of the Press. This story is a few months old, but it gives a fair idea of what's going on. And things have not improved much lately. Don Firth |
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16 Nov 02 - 07:04 PM (#828010) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Bobert Hey, one could argue that Greg Palast was maybe a little tought on Boss Hog and Co. even though all the guy has done is report the truth. Like how the Bush and the Bin Ladens are tied together like Romeo and Juliet. Like how the Bush's and Katerine Harris stole democracy. Yeah, you know, that boring stuff that while not as entertaining as a monkey that can ride a bicycle, but alot more important... But when Dan Rather comes out and says that the Bush administration is intimidating him and other in the media, one needs to stop and consider the possibilities that there is indeed a chance that America will not survive George Bush and his cronies. I mean, here is a guy who has dodged bullets while standing in front of a camera in Viet Nam and he's saying, "look out!" Well, I reckon it's really time to do just that... Bobert |
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18 Nov 02 - 07:38 PM (#829402) Subject: RE: BS: Safire scared of Poindexter From: Mark Clark W-O, When I used to travel to Toronto on business, I recall thinking that Canadian housing prices were high compared to the U.S., at least to my region of the U.S. I think average home prices in my town are around $198,787 CAD at today's exchange rate. Of course many people are building new homes for three times that amount but one can find a starter home for much less. - Mark |