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16 Dec 02 - 05:06 PM (#848392) Subject: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: GUEST,Claymore I'm suprised that no-one has commented on this before now. As many know, I was happy to see him lose, and as some of my answers to the "What would Al do?" threads, I pointed out that it was highly problamatic that he would run again. My President has advised me not to gloat, but my record for prognostication for politics and criminal matters (snipers, not Clinton again... ) is running pretty good. I do have to say that Gore went with class, though he expressly left open a run four years from now, just not against Bush again. That tells me that he figures that any Democrat will have a tough time with Bush, the Incumbent President. And of all the people mentioned as possible presidential timber, I like the names of Biden and Leiberman as two Dems I would not go crazy over losing to. The others, IMO, are mice, and won't last the first couple of primaries (tho' Kerry has the advange in NH). In any case, the Game is on... |
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16 Dec 02 - 06:17 PM (#848439) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: InOBU More than with class he was GREAT on Saturday Night Live! He was the best in the cast! Brilliant! He should be a regular! Cheers Larry |
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16 Dec 02 - 06:57 PM (#848469) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Jim Dixon I always thought Gore had the best sense of humor of any recent politician I know. |
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16 Dec 02 - 07:03 PM (#848472) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: artbrooks He would have had a lot more of my respect if he had "bowed out with class" about halfway through Mr. Clinton's last term in office. IMHO, he'd now be our President if he had done so. |
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16 Dec 02 - 07:49 PM (#848498) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Bobert This may be the only time that Claymore and I will ever agree on anything of political nature so I'm not going to let the opportunity pass. Yeah, afer watching Al Gore on Saturday night I told my wife that after that performance it would be hard for him run again for the Presidency. Little did I know that Sunday evening I would see Mr. Gore step up to the plate and tell the world, without an ounce of bitterness, that he was not only not going to run in '04 but probably not again in '08. He did it with class and a relaxed style that, though I am not a Democrat any longer, that I couldn't help but respect. Bobert |
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16 Dec 02 - 10:11 PM (#848574) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: mg I think he will be a great political consultant, teacher, writer, and public citizen. I think he is a great family man and seems to be a very nice person. Looks like a good decision to me. mg |
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16 Dec 02 - 10:52 PM (#848592) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Amos I'm only sorry he lost to that little ratfink Jeb. Anyway, he is a decent and intelligent guy, and he really deserves better than to inherit the mess George W will be leaving behind him. A |
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16 Dec 02 - 11:06 PM (#848603) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Bill D I've been following Gore since he was first in congress, and have always thought he was sincere, intelligent and honest. Unfortunately, the system and media have ways of focusing attention on other things....little flaws that are not terribly important, but are easy to parody. Gore was never the speaker that Clinton was, and his public 'presence' was awkward. He has since improved that, but the image lingers. Add to that his tag as 'loser' now- even though some think he was not the loser- and you get a situation where the public 'probably' would not support him enough.......so, I guess he made the safest choice. As to who now...wow...they will be lining up in droves!...Kerrey, Lieberman, Daschle, Biden...even Al Sharpton *shudder*...I could tentatively support several of them...but we shall see. |
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16 Dec 02 - 11:08 PM (#848604) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Troll He just doesn't want to have to run against Hillary in '04, that's all. I can't see him bowing out of politics for good. Power is too heady a drug. He'll be back and probably sooner than you realize. troll |
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17 Dec 02 - 01:23 AM (#848680) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: DougR Geeze. You guys must have been watching a different 60 Minutes than I did. Gore is not running for three reasons(IMOH). He couldn't get the backing of the Democratic bigwigs; he couldn't raise the money necessary to mount a campaign; and he doesn't want to lose to Bush again. I didn't catch his act on Saturday Night Live, but maybe that's where he belongs after all. I'll watch it if it is ever re-run, though, because I never thought Al had a funny bone in his whole body. DougR |
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17 Dec 02 - 09:23 AM (#848851) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Big Mick Typical partisan rant, Doug. Let me tell you about my old boss. He is funny as hell, and has a very warm character that doesn't come off well in the 2D image you see on TV. When he laughs and smiles, it is with his whole face. It always made us crazy that it didn't transmit well on TV. And he loves good practical jokes. Let me tell you about one. A little back story to set it up. Al Gore loves to campaign, loves to press the flesh. I have had the opportunity in my life to get to know several of the great campaigners and this is a necessary love for all of them. They love people and being around them. Tom Harkin and I spent a day travelling together and he had the same love. Those of us who direct campaigns are always amazed by the ability to go on and on and never lose the enthusiasm for meeting folks. This manifests itself with Vice President Gore by him never leaving a gathering without speaking to every person that is waiting to shake his hand, have a few words, and get a picture. And when he is speaking to folks, his gaze never leaves them, and he is listening with interest to what you say. Where this is leading is that, while it is a great testament to the man, it is mentally and physically exhausting on those of us who are staff. I am thinking of an event we did at Wayne State University during the campaign. Our day started at O dark thirty in the morning, and included several events for supporters. The days concluding event was one of Gore's favorite type of events. He asked me to get about 750 or so undecideds, Republican, Democrat and Independents, in the room. The seating was in the round. He would then take a wireless mic and go into the event and spend 2 hours fielding challenging questions and explaining his policy. I always was in awe of him doing this. He was so confident of his vision that he would jump right in and engage this crowd. And then he would stay and speak to everyone in the crowd that was waiting which was about 200 people. I was working his shoulder. That means I was taking down the names and data needed to follow up on everything he promised. Also, there was a Japanese documentary crew filming the American campaigns and was on site. They were just packing it in for the day. Which brings me to the practical joke. The press guy, Chris, was absolutely exhausted. He collapsed in a folding chair while we were finishing up. One of the sound crews took a plastic cable tie, and snuck up behind him and tied his belt loops to the chair he was in. Then one of the campaign staff told me to let VP Gore know. He got this twinkle in his eye, and told them to go get the Japanese film crew and let them in on the joke. When they were in position, he turned around and made a big show about calling for Chris. Chris started to get up and realized he was caught. The VP makes this big production about "get over here, Chris, I need you". Then he works Chris over on camera about "see what I have to put up with". I guess you had to be there, but it was incredibly funny and lasted for 5 minutes or so. We all were laughing so hard at the look on Chris's face and the VP just playing it. He is an honorable man. I know that this was an incredibly hard decision for him to make, but you may be sure that Tipper was ready to support her partner in whatever choice he made. She is one of the finest people I have ever met. I took my (at the time) 8 year old daughter with me when she came to Michigan for a day of campaigning in the eastern half of the state. She passed notes to her and was so wonderful that she made a huge impression on an eight year old little girl. I was so happy that Ciara got to meet her, and the new Governor of Michigan, Jennifer Granholm. Both of these wonderful role models made a huge impression on a little girl that will affect her all the days of her life. They fawned on her and made her feel very special, for which I am greatful. I am trying to stay out of politics these days, but I must tell you that the presence of committed and decent folks, like Vice President Gore, leave me with great optimism for the future. I am sure that there are many like this on all sides of the philosophical divide. Just a few observances from the front lines. I am sorry for being so wordy. All the best, Mick |
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17 Dec 02 - 09:42 AM (#848871) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Ron Olesko I'm sure if Gore ran in 2004 he would have been re-elected. |
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17 Dec 02 - 10:48 AM (#848930) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Bobert I agree Ron, that Gore would get re-elected and still loose to Bush's Dream Legal Team. Bush was ready for Florida and knew what had to be done to steal the White House and he did it. Gore, I think, was not willing fight it out in the gutters of political reality. Greg Palist advised Gore during the attempted recount that Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris has disfrancised black votors but Gore choose not to go public. It was Bush who had paid goon squads on airplanes to Florida tha morning after the election to harrass precinct workers and Gore supporters. It was Bush who outspent 5 to 1 Gore in lawyers. It was Bush who brought suit against Gore for Gore somehow "damaging" Bush. Looking back we now know who was "damaged". Gore took the high road and I guess that speaks volumes about just how corrupt the American political system has become. Good for Gore. Maybe if he chooses to run in '08, he'll do so as the Green Party candidate. Sounds like he is ready to shead some of the repubocratic baggage... Bobert |
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17 Dec 02 - 11:02 AM (#848940) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Amos Mick: Thanks for that fine tale; it simply confirms everything I sensed was the case about the man. DougR, go wash your mouth out with soap. George Bush lost the popular vote to a better man, and that is the fact of the matter with no political bushwah attached. A |
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17 Dec 02 - 11:34 AM (#848953) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: GUEST Al Gore as the Green Party candidate? I don't think so, and thank god for that! Greens tend not to think much about warmed over right of center Dems like Gore. Gore the Environmentalist my ass. |
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17 Dec 02 - 11:52 AM (#848962) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Ron Olesko Gore your ass? That sounds painful. |
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17 Dec 02 - 12:20 PM (#848986) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: John Hardly artbrooks, I always thought the same thing. Interesting to hear it from someone else. I think he would have won 2000 in a landslide if he had resigned during the Clinton term. Not having done so called his own motives into question and saddled him with a "Fordian" character. By the way, he was hilarious on SNL. The little bit of racist (anti-hispanic) humor, while very funny, I do think would have been a bit burdensome to explain during a presidential campaign. |
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17 Dec 02 - 12:20 PM (#848987) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Big Mick Guest Matriot.......there you go again. Instead of making the type of fine posting you are capable of, you jump in with a flame geared at getting a response so you can hijack the thread. And your assertion is baseless and ignores the endorsement of folks like the Sierra Club, and Gore's unwavering support of environmental causes. But those are facts and you rarely care about those. Please take your medicine and come back and post as you are capable of instead of these "shoot from the lip" type posts. Folks, this person will now attempt to take over the thread and be nasty and start talking about me........you know the drill.....obfuscate and attempt to get the high ground. Please ignore. I know I will. Fire away, matriot, or whatever you call yourself now. Mick |
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17 Dec 02 - 01:07 PM (#849026) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: GUEST T'would be quite painful, I agree Ron. Just not nearly as painful as the 2000 debacle that too many people refer to as "the winning of the popular vote" (ahem), as if Gore had won by a landslide. Sure he did. Every Good Dem loves Gore, right? Nader beat Gore fair and square in 2002. The Dems lost the Green vote BECAUSE they gave Gore the nomination without a fight, and refused to move their lazy Gored arses off the right of center bullseye target that made them such an easy sleezy mark in the 2002 midterm. As to Gore on SNL--I saw the whole frightening thing. Steve Martin he ain't. |
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17 Dec 02 - 01:46 PM (#849053) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Ron Olesko Okay, as much as respect Ralph Nader, I am confused as to how he "beat" Gore. If you are referring to Florida, I guess Pat Buchanan's unususally high number of votes cost the election - but then again I am sure Bush would have found a way to steal the election even if Gore had both Nader and Buchanan's votes. Gore did not win by a landslide, but then again not many presidents have. |
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17 Dec 02 - 01:52 PM (#849057) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: GUEST "I am confused as to how he "beat" Gore." Ron, the remark was intended to be tongue in cheek--a reference to claims by the Gore camp that Nader cost Gore the election (you know, the "a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush" camp). |
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17 Dec 02 - 01:56 PM (#849058) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Ron Olesko Gotcha! Thanks! Ron |
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17 Dec 02 - 02:27 PM (#849072) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Lepus Rex God, still doing the "paranoia and name dropping" thing, eh, Mick? The only one I see trying to make the thread about you is you. And like you're one to talk about "typical partisan rant"-s. The only difference between Doug's post and one of yours is that Doug knows how to keep it short. Oh, and that he doesn't drop names. That said, I think you're wrong, Doug. I believe Gore's reasons for not running. I think Gore could have beaten Bush in 2004, and I think he knows it. Bush isn't anywhere near as popular as the polls suggest he is, and will be even less popular in two years. In fact, I think Gore was perhaps the only Democrat who could beat Bush in 2004. Not with my vote, but still. And I liked Gore on SNL. Especially the Trent Lott thing. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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17 Dec 02 - 02:56 PM (#849084) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: GUEST Gore was definitely better than McCain on SNL. Less wooden (in most the skits). The Lott/Hardball skit was one of only two highlights to the program. The other was the hot tub with Lieberman. But in the Hardball skit, the cast members (besides Hammond) sucked, which made the skit limp along a lot more than the hot tub skit I thought. It is a sad commentary on SNL that instead of doing the cutting political satire and parody the show was once known for, they now settle for mediocre to bad casts, and right leaning political guest hosts like McCain and Gore, to keep the show alive in the ratings. BTW, I think Gore IS still running, and his SNL appearance, cleverly followed immediately by the 60 Minutes interview (which he scheduled with Lesley Stahl--he called her, according to this week's media reports), demonstrated to me that he is damn smart not to run in 2004 for exactly the reason he gave, ie it would be a rehash of the 2000 election, which he would have lost even if the Supreme Court hadn't intervened. Now, I don't think Bush won Florida fair and square at all. I think Bush won Florida because of black voter intimidation and violations of the Voting Rights Act. The Supreme Court's decision just made sure that none of us would find out to just what lengths the Republican Party is willing to go to prevent blacks from voting, ESPECIALLY in the South. One reason why so many Republicans are so nervous right now about the Lott "race" statement, is they fear a more serious look into the Republican Party's Dixiecrat wing's efforts to undermine the Voting Rights Act (remember how Lott and many other Dixiecrat Republicans voted on it), and the Bush wing of the Republican Party giving them constant reassurance with their racially coded nods and winks. I don't think Gore could beat Bush in 2004. Too many jaded voters would sit the election out. I think it was that fact that Gore alluded to in the 60 Minutes interview (but never came right out and said in plain English), that helped him decide not to run in 2004. But I think there is still a very good chance he'll be back to try and pull a Nixon on us in 2008 or 2012. |
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17 Dec 02 - 03:22 PM (#849106) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Bill D If you were to listen to Al Gore in person ...seriously...for 15 minutes you would KNOW he was a sane, concerned environmentalist. Now those whose vested interests make them wary of sane, concerned environmentalists will make every effort to deny, obfuscate and otherwise belittle what Gore says. There IS a certain mindset that simply makes some folks unable to see the truth in environmental issues and allows them to Gerrymander their own thoughts.....ususally with $$$s at the root of the thought process; and these folks WILL put down and play down the ideas of an Al Gore. If Gore does not run again, I hope those who do will read what he has said for content and take it to heart....and perhaps they will be a bit cleverer than Gore in how they present it---but I suspect if the policies that we need get implemented, Gore will be satisfied. The political landscape is littered with sad remnants of decent, intelligent people who just never managed to get the right timing, message, backing...etc....to get that BIG job. (Yes, I am a democrat, so my list includes Abe Ribicoff, Ed Muskie, etc., as well as Gore) |
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17 Dec 02 - 03:35 PM (#849113) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: GUEST I only wanted him to run win so I could read the headline "Gore Licks Bush" |
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17 Dec 02 - 03:52 PM (#849124) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: GUEST During the climate treaty summit in Kyoto in 1997, Greenpeace accused Clinton and Gore of being in bed with Big Oil because of their retreat on greenhouse emissions in deference to oil companies like ARCO, Chevron, and Exxon. The League of Conservation Voters accorded him a mere 60 percent rating for his tenure in the House, and 73 percent for the Senate. Like his father before him, he was beholden to home-state investment interests associated with construction projects of the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) and the tobacco industry. In his home state of Tennessee was the first real test case of the Endangered Species Act (remember the snail darter fish?) Gore voted for the Tellico Dam (on the Little Tennessee River) to be exempted from the Act. I don't consider anyone who is pro-nuke to be an environmentalist. There is no "compromise" on this issue. Gore backed the Clinch River breeder reactor, and in his time in the US Congress, voted WITH THE NUCLEAR POWER INDUSTRY on over 55% of his votes. As vice president, Gore has campaigned for a substantial weakening of the U.S. law prohibiting the sale of tuna caught using fishing methods that incidentally kill dolphins. This was done within the context of international manueverings under the GATT (General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade). While the Clinton/Gore Environment Protection Agency (EPA) was busy showing Texas to be leading the nation in reducing Toxic Releases (Toxic Release Inventory, Environmental Protection Agency, 1995-1998), Al Gore continued to allow pollution ridden mining companies to extract zinc from his own property. Gore himself admitted the illegal practices of the companies to which he had leased his land in a 1990 lawsuit (Paragraph 15 of the complaint filed June 25, 1990 in the Chancery Court of Smith County, Tennessee by Albert Gore, Sr., Pauline Gore, Albert Gore, Jr. and Mary Elizabeth Gore, Plaintiffs, vs. Union Zinc, Inc., Defendant.), but continued to allow the mining to occur, even despite citations for four serious violations since December, 1997 by the Tennessee Department of Environment and Conservation. Additionally, In 1996, the mine which operates on Gore's Tennessee property failed two "Chronic Toxicity Evaluations." In 1996, the mine twice failed biomonitoring tests designed to protect water quality in the Caney Fork for fish and wildlife. Mine discharge "failed two acute tests for toxicity to Ceriodaphnia dubia," a species of water flea, according to a mine permit analysis by Tennessee environmental authorities." (Micah Morrison, "Al Gore, Environmentalist and Zinc Miner," The Wall Street Journal, June 29, 2000). The practical ramifications of these violations is a negative, possibly dangerous effect of the zinc mines on the local water supply, as the portion of the Carney Fork that Gore's land pollutes is classified for the following uses: domestic water supply, industrial water supply, fish and aquatic life, recreation, irrigation, and livestock watering and wildlife." (Savage Zinc, Inc., Elmwood mine, NPDES Permit No. TN0004227, January 7, 1998) A Green Gore ain't. |
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17 Dec 02 - 04:52 PM (#849165) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Ron Olesko We all have our issues and if it were easy to choose, we wouldn't need elections. While Gore may have some problems appealing to environmentalists, I think the question we have to answer is who will do the best job as a President. Nadar may have done well with environmentalists, but could he have handled the economy and international issues? My feeling is that out of Bush, Gore, Nadar and Buchanan, the human race would have come out better with Gore as the U.S. president. |
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17 Dec 02 - 05:03 PM (#849175) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: GUEST Ron, with all due respect, you apparently didn't read the book "Al Gore: a User's Manual" by Alexander Cockburn (of The Nation) and Jeff St. Clair (of In These Times and CounterPunch). At the time it came out (in Sept 2000) it was considered a progressive left book end (pardon the pun) to Molly Ivens' "Shrub: The Short but Happy Political Life of George W. Bush". Both books make great reading for those with an interest in electoral politics and the selling out of America by our highest elected officials. From amazon.com's Editorial Review section on the book: Book Description What sort of a man is Al Gore? What's his real political record? This is the first unsparing look at the man whom his parents raised from birth to be president of the United States. Inside these pages, you will find: * How Al Gore and his father got on the payroll of one of America's most ruthless tycoons, Armand Hammer * How Al Gore has relentlessly exploited his sister's death and son's accident for personal political advantage * How Al Gore violated the most basic journalistic ethics by helping the cops run a sting operation on a black politician in Nashville * How Al Gore played midwife to the MX missile * How Al Gore became a soul brother of Newt Gingrich * How Al Gore race-baited Jesse Jackson and introduced George Bush to Willie Horton * How Al Gore shopped his vote in support of the Gulf War to get prime-time coverage for his speech * How Al Gore pushed Clinton into destroying the New Deal * How Al Gore plotted to stop Democrats from recapturing Congress in 1996 in order to keep his rival Dick Gephard from becoming Speaker of the House * How Al Gore leached campaign contributions from nearly every corporate lobbyist in DC, and broke pledge after pledge to protect the environment. You know Ron, if you don't like any of the candidates, you do have the option of exercising the "none of the above" option when you cast your ballot. |
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17 Dec 02 - 06:31 PM (#849242) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: DougR Lepus: if the Democratic Party, and particularly Al Gore truly believed he could beat GWB in 2004, he would have run. What possible reason would he have not to run? DougR |
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17 Dec 02 - 07:03 PM (#849265) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Bobert Lawyers and the Supreme Court, Doug... Winning ain't everything. Ask Al Gore... Bobert |
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17 Dec 02 - 07:30 PM (#849287) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: WFDU - Ron Olesko But I do like Al Gore and I do think he could have done a good job. |
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17 Dec 02 - 08:03 PM (#849310) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Bill D dear "guest"....is there ANYONE you wish to recommend who does not have some baggage and awkward moments in his past? Politics seems to require compromises, and compromises get you "well, in 1994 he voted for/against "X"..."....with a little research, I can find lists like you post to hang 'round the neck of ANY politician....and some a lot worse! |
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17 Dec 02 - 08:11 PM (#849316) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Amos Doug, you have to consider that it is just possible that he felt it would not be right to run n '04. Some poeple -- although few, I grant you -- do use the greatest good as a guideline for right action, and consider right action to be senior to rank opportunism. They may not be numerous in your party of choice just now, but they used to be. A |
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17 Dec 02 - 08:23 PM (#849325) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: DougR Sorry, Amos, but as Bobert loves to say, "that dog won't hunt." I repeat: if Al Gore AND the Democratic Party knew Al could defeat George in 2004, what plausable reason would he have for not running. And yes, Bobert, Al got more of the popular vote than George (gee that's a tired old argument)but we dont' elect our president by popular vote. DougR |
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17 Dec 02 - 08:33 PM (#849334) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Doug - the fact that Al got more of the popular vote than Shrub is not meant to be an arguement, it is a fact. Your statement that we don't elect our president by popular vote speaks volumes. There is something wrong here. |
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17 Dec 02 - 08:53 PM (#849341) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: GUEST I guess I'm old fashioned enough to believe that we should judge political candidates based upon their record, not whether we think they are cool, nice, more or less innocuous than their opponent, or performed well on SNL. It seems to me most people who profess to being "environmentalists" don't have much knowledge, understanding, and awareness of how the national environmental organizations' "capitulation agenda" was and is corporate funded. They also tend not to know about the political battles for control of these organizations. For instance, there was a fairly big battle over control of the Sierra Club, leading up to the 2000 elections. It was partly over endorsement of Gore, but more about an anti-democratic drift within the organization, and controversy over a small group of it's board, dedicated to forcing it's anti-immigration agenda on the national and local Sierra Clubs. Americans pour as much as $3 billion into environmental causes every year. A sizable chunk of that money goes to the 12 large groups that dominate the green scene in Washington , D.C. With all this money rolling into the national environmental movement, some critics, such as investigative journalist Mark Dowie, suggest that size does matter -- in reverse: The larger a group gets, the more bureacratic and less effective it becomes. As Dowie and others have noted, amazing work is being done at the grass roots level against tremendous odds, but these struggles are often neglected by the press and unnoticed by the larger public. In an attempt to correct the record, Jeffrey St. Clair (mentioned in my post above) and Bernardo Issel prepared a brief consumer profile of some of the largest and most ubiquitous environmental organizations in In These Times magazine in 1997. They charted their organizational history, political leanings and financial status. (Jeffrey St. Clair reports on the environment for Counterpunch. Bernardo Issel is a freelance writer based in Washington, D.C. Here is what they reported: Environmental Defense Fund Created in 1967 by a small band of lawyers seeking to ban DDT, EDF evolved into George Bush's favorite environmental group. The group is the premier advocate or market-oriented solutions to environmental problems. EDF was a cheerleader for NAFTA, and gets excited about pollution credits, emissions trading systems and user fees for recreational use of public lands. it hosts the Barbra Streisand Chair of Environmental Studies, the perch of scientist Michael Oppenheimer, who advocates buying up development rights in the Third World as a solution to global climate change. EDF convinced McDonalds in 1991 to reform its solid-waste disposal practices and to move from Styrofoam to paper packaging (but remained mum on quality of food, ecologically destructive ranching practices and abusive treatment of animals and workers.) In cooperation with major timber companies, the group developed a "paper-use task force," whose recommendations discreetly ignored sustainable alternatives to paper such as industrial hemp and kenaf. Inc. magazine praised president Fred Krupp for his ability to "speak capitalism." Budget: $25.4 million Staff: 160 Members: 300,000 Salary of CEO: $262,000, including benefits Greenpeace USA Greenpeace sprang up in 1971 out of protests against U.S. nuclear testing in the Aleutians. The group has gained a reputation as a media-savvy, confrontational organization with a radical eco-agenda to end pollution, protect biodiversity and bring about global disarmament. it has waged war against factory trawlers, whaling ships, pulp mills and the French nuclear navy. Its membership exploded in the '80s, reaching 4.8 million internationally at its peak in 1991. Since then, it has been on the decline. Greenpeace is one of the few national groups to demonstrate some sensitivity to the social and economic problems of Third World nations. The group valiantly fought NAFTA and GATT, but recently joined forces with NAFTA proponents in support of a controversial bill to weaken US dolphin protection laws. it recently smothered efforts to unionize its legions of canvassers Earlier this year, 16 founding members criticized the group for becoming too bureaucratic, lacking focus and doling out high salaries. Ex-Greenpeacer Cpt. Paul Watson of the Sea Shephard Society calls the group the "Avon ladies of the environmental movement." Budget: $32 million Staff: 250 Members: 600,000 CEO Salary: More than $65,000 National Audubon Society One of the oldest and most high-brow of American conservation groups, the Audubon Society has long been a bastion of Rockefeller Republicans. It demonstrates a particular obsession with Third World birth rates, advocating harsh population control measures. In 1991, the group fired Les Line, the award-winning editor of Audubon magazine, and replaced him with Malcolm Abrams, former editor of The Star tabloid. The group takes in hundreds of thousands of dollars from conservative foundations, such as Pew Charitable Trusts (Sun Oil), the J.M. Kaplan Fund (a former pass-through for CIA moneys) and the Ford Foundation. It has also raked in millions from royalties on oil and gas wells in its Rainey Wildlife Reserve in Louisiana. Last year, the group purged staff, including Brock Evans, widely regarded as the best eco-lobbyist on Capitol Hill. Former staffers say the new president, John Flicker, wants to turn the group into a Nature Conservancy for the birdwatching crowd. Local chapters, such as Sassafras Audubon in Bloomington, Ind., and Kalmiopsis Audubon in Port Orford, Ore., often demonstrate a refreshing degree of independence. Budget: $44.9 million Staff: 300 Members: 550,000 CEO Salary: More than $180,000 including benefits National Wildlife Federation The National Wildlife Federation is the largest environmental group on the planet, with nearly 5 million members. It represents the old guard of the conservative establishment, including many hunting, fishing and gun clubs sustained by a history of racism. For decades, the group was largely funded through the sale of wildlife stamps. Through the '80s and early '90s, the federation was dominated by its CEO, Jay Hair, who had a passion for limousines, expensive travel budgets, swank office furnishings and deal-making. The group has invited corporate chieftains, including Dean Buntrock of Waste Management Inc., to join its board of directors. It's the favorite charity of John Denver and big oil companies, including Arco, Chevron and Mobil. Budget: $80 million Staff: 600 Members: 5 million CEO salary: More than $180,000 including benefits National Resources Defense Council Born in the wake of the first Earth Day, the groups' early years were spent litigating the new litany of environmental laws, such as the Clean Air Act of 1970 and the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969. By the '80s, it had largely settled into an eco-think tank and lobby shop, generating monthly blizzards of white papers. Its bank accounts are lavishly seeded by the Rockefeller and Ford Foundation grants. NRDC is the favorite roost of Hollywood celebs, such as Robert Redford and Meryl Streep. It is a zealous promoter of electric utility deregulation; founding member John Bryson now heads nuke-laden Southern California Edison. The group betrayed the Huaorani Indians in Ecuador by trying to broker a deal allowing oil development of tribal lands. Executive director John Adams boasted that NRDC had "broken the back of environmental opposition to NAFTA." Budget: $27.5 million Staff: 172 Members: 350,000 CEO salary: More than $200,000, including benefits The Nature Conservancy The titan of green groups, the Nature Conservancy sits on nearly a billion dollars in assets and is awash in cash, thanks to a tidal wave of corporate donations, much of it from notorious polluters such as Arco, Archer-Daniels-Midland, British Petroleum, DuPont, Shell and Freeport-McMoRan. The group eschews political work in favor of the relatively noncontroversial project of buying land. Calling itself "Nature's real estate agent," the Nature Conservancy purchases private land and then sells it to state and federal agencies, often, according to its critics, at a considerable mark-up. Last year, the group violated its apolitical policy to concoct the compromise rewrite of the Endangered Species Act with a secret coalition of corporations and trade associations, including the National Homebuilder's Association and timber giant Georgie-Pacific. The group is led by John Sawhill, former energy aide to Nixon and Ford and a fanatical proponent of nuclear power, who has enjoyed lucrative positions on the boards of Procter & Gamble, North American Coal Company and Pacific Gas & Electric. Budget: $337 million Staff: 1,200 Members: 720,000 individuals; 220 corporations Salary of CEO: More than $196,000, including benefits Sierra Club Founded in 1892 by John Muir, who preached a conservationist message that led to the creation of Yosemite National Park, the Sierra Club promotes itself as the nation's "oldest and most effective grass-roots environmental organization." It largely settled into little more than a hiking club for the well-heeled from the Bay Area, until David Brower took the helm in the '50s and led the group in great battles to save Grand Canyon, create Redwood National Park and protect Alaskan wilderness. Brower was ousted in 1969 after the club lost its tax-exempt status for his aggressive political work. The club fought hard against NAFTA and was an early proponent of environmental justice issues. It still maintains the most democratic structure of any major group, though critics, such as Margaret Young, claim the club leadership has used repressive measures to stifle dissent. Under the leadership of Carl Pope, an intimate of Al Gore, the club twice endorsed the Clinton/Gore ticket over the raucous objection of many members. The membership overwhelmingly passed a 1996 ballot initiative calling for an end to commercial logging on public lands, despite the fierce opposition from the group's leaders and lobbyists. The club is currently riding the media hype of Gen-X Board President Adam Warbach. Budget: $50 million Members: 550,000 Staff: 150 CEO salary: More than $100,000 including benefits |
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17 Dec 02 - 09:07 PM (#849347) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: WFDU - Ron Olesko That's very nice reporting guest, but what is your solution? If you think that Ralph Nader is going to be president, you have a lot of work to do. As much as we respect the man, there is a lot of people that won't move from the two party system. What are you doing to change that if you find it to be a problem? |
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17 Dec 02 - 09:31 PM (#849357) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Bobert Did I start all this with a suggestion that if Gore wants to dump a career's worth of repubocratic baggage then he might run as a Green in '08? Well, if I did, I was just kinda goofin' and not too serious but, hey, stranger things have happened. Now I like Ralph Nadar myself but I can see that gettin' him elected is problematic. BUT, the next goal for Green's is the magic 5% so that it can get some much needed funding,but more importantly, into the Presidential debates. When that occurs, look out. Yeah, we came close this year and if it hadn't been for so many folks scared out of their minds of the prospect of another warmonging Bush in the White House, we would have gotten the 5% hands! '04 should be a lot better opportunity with Junior having gotten the US one nasty war and threatenin' another with North Korea and everyone knows you don't dump the Prez during a war so I reckon the Green Party will do well and get into the game in '08. Bobert |
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17 Dec 02 - 10:27 PM (#849383) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: GUEST Ron, are you suggesting that Gore is "the solution"? Gimmee a break! Break out of that conventional box thinking, and give alternative candidates a chance. Do you REALLY think the world can be any more fucked up than the conventional corporate funded two party system has made it? There isn't just one solution, and god knows the myriad of problems we face in this world aren't going to be solved on our behalf by the malevolent forces that rule the corporate two party system. The solutions will be found by us, the people, not the plutocrats. We all pick and choose our battles. For some it will be to work on corporate reform, for some it will be work on environmental issues, for others it will be on human rights, for others it will be on racial or gender discrimination, for others it will be health care reform. Just because you can't get your head around the idea of a third party candidate being "realistic" doesn't mean anything, except that you have automatically limited your thinking in just the way the plutocrats have ordered you to, Ron. Do I think any third party candidate is going to be elected in 2004? Well I tell you what, prior to Jesse Ventura winning in Minnesota, I thought it couldn't happen either. But when you are faced with the supposedly impossible becoming reality, your whole view of what is possible changes. The third party movement is definitely eating away at the tyranny of the two party system. The two party system can't last forever, history has proven that much. It will give way to new ideas and new ways of doing things, the only question is when. That time could be upon us. Maybe not two years from now, but it is most definitely possible to see the two party system collapse within the next 10-15-25 years. I fully anticipate seeing both a black and a woman as president in that time too. The world is changing dramatically, whether people want to believe and accept the changes or not. |
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17 Dec 02 - 10:42 PM (#849390) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Guest, where did you get the idea that I said Gore is the "solution"? I said of the 4 "major" choices he was, in my opinion, the best choice in the last election. When did I say that a third party is not viable? You sure have a way of putting words in peoples mouths. I guess you've proved that a third party is just as guilty of playing spin doctor as the Republicans and Democrats. I agree with you that the 2 party system will be challenged. I don't think Ralph Nader belongs in the White House and I think Al Gore was/is better equipped to run a country and get things done. Major changes in thinking and policy do not happen overnight. While I agree with your vision, you have to give it time and work hard at it. You still didn't answer my question about how it the change is going to happen. That is the key to the issue, there is no game plan or strong leaders for a third party AT THIS MOMENT. As you say, it is coming, but work needs to be done. I ask you again, how can YOU help make it happen? |
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17 Dec 02 - 11:58 PM (#849416) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: NicoleC The CEO of Greenpeace only makes about $65,000!? That's hardly an example of an inflated salary! Being a CEO requires talent, education and leadership, and finding someone who can do so at that salary level is practically a miracle. I may disagree with Greenpeace on many issues, but criticizing them for high salaries is very unfair if that figure is accurate. Gore, I think, made the right decision. Although I disagree with many of his views, I think he would have made a principled and effective president... even if not always in the direction I'd prefer. Given the fiasco of the 2000 election, any subsequent Bush/Gore election was bound to be bloody and ugly and I don't blame him one bit for not wanting to put himself and his family through it. Time off from politics may give him the time to reevaluate his priorities and come to the table with a clean mental slate. I doubt he will run in 2008, but if he does he may come back a much better person for removing himself from the political arena for a while. Like Carter, it may turn out that Gore makes a better ex-official than an official. If he uses his name recognition and clout to do more than SNL appearances and books, we may have a much-needed politically savvy activist on our hands. |
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18 Dec 02 - 02:16 AM (#849451) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Big Mick GUEST, that is more like it. I now have to go back and read your stuff thoroughly to respond, instead of just responding in kind. Very provocative. I like that. Lepus, I don't much care if you think I am namedropping. You don't seem to know the difference between recounting events and namedropping. Sorry your life is such that you feel the need to take shots. You should try responding in the way that GUEST did. geeez that pains me to have to say that..........hahahaha And if you really want me to drop names, I will. It's easy to do when one has spent their adult life working with these folks. But these days I would rather drop the names of folkies that I know. They are much more interesting and substantial than a lot of the Dems and Repubs that I have met along the way. Doug, I don't see how giving a well thought out reason for not running is admitting he couldn't win. I must tell you that this man loves nothing better than campaigning. His reasoning is solid. He doesn't want to rerun 2000, and that is what would have happened. I also agree that we haven't seen the last of him. But I don't think he will run next time either. Now.............off to reread those posts. Mick |
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18 Dec 02 - 06:03 PM (#849881) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: DougR Mick: I don't want to belabor the point, but I heard the interview with Leslie Stahl and wonder what you mean by "a well thought out reason for not running." I believe you when you say he loves campaigning. But do you seriously believe if he was convinced he could beat Bush the second time around, he wouldn't run? Ron: Sorry but I find your reply to my post about the popular vote a bit confusing. You DO know that the president is elected by the electoral college, don't you? I assumed you did. The popular vote means nothing legally. DougR |
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18 Dec 02 - 06:17 PM (#849893) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Bobert Doug: Gore makes pefect sense. He won the last election didn't he and did that get him the Presidency? Heck no it didn't. He lost out to lawyers, liars, goons and some of the worst JIM Crow stuff America has seen in decades. Not to mention a corrupt Supreme Court... With all the shennaagans that went on the last time he'd have to be half brain dead to go thru that again. Bobert |
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18 Dec 02 - 06:20 PM (#849895) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Amos DougR: That dog does hunt, and he hunts jes' fahn for those able to use him. Try him out on yore own possums and see if ya don't sleep better!! A |
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18 Dec 02 - 06:50 PM (#849923) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Ebbie Isn't it funny how different it sounds: the popular vote OR the people's vote... More of us voted for one candidate than for the other one- the Electoral college has its own history and rationale for being, but one of its effects can be to negate the voice of the people. |
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18 Dec 02 - 06:58 PM (#849930) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: WFDU - Ron Olesko DougR - of course I knew. I just think it might be outdated. |
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18 Dec 02 - 07:52 PM (#849967) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Bill D I repeat, with emphasis changed: dear "guest"....is there anyone YOU wish to recommend?? |
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18 Dec 02 - 08:34 PM (#849999) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: GUEST Bill D, I don't understand what you are asking. Recommend for what? |
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18 Dec 02 - 08:44 PM (#850002) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: GUEST,Claymore Actually the Electoral College is all about the people, though not in the manner it has been portrayed. The older, more ignorant view, was the patronizing statement that it was created because the common voter could not be expected to really know how to vote for a proper President. What these people have never understood, was the reason that has caused the Electral College to continue, even after the close Gore Bush contest. I can recall Hillary Clinton stating they would definitely change the Electoral College, only to be told to shut up by other Democrats, and she never spoke of it again. Why? Why after all this bitching by ignorant voters, has absolutely nothing been done? Another Republican plot to steal the election from a Democrat? The self-knowledge by Democrats that their voters are less educated than Republicans? Let me try a gentle cleansing rain on the subject: The basic idea is, that in order to win an election in the United STATES, you have to campaign in each one of them, and win fifty local elections; winning on local issues as well as national ones, pressing the flesh in every state, and counting every electoral vote. If it didn't exist, as the more intelligent Democrats told Hillary after her public put-down, the Demodrats would only run in urban North areas, while the Republicans would only run in the South and West. And while that generally holds true in the general cast of a normal election, you involve the Federal candidates in the general theme of local politics. This is especially true in two areas, the House elections, and the primaries, where at the Party's conventions, the majority of each State's delegates are awarded according to the number of Electoral electors the individual States elected. (There are other additional formulas unique to each party to add "super-delgates" and play with the minority attendance, but essentially it is the Electoral College results that determine apportionment of delegates. Both the Bush and Gore camp knew the value of the Electoral College, and plotted their campaign strategies accordingly. You might recall the endless debates over whether Bush was spending too much time in California, or Gore too little in his home state of Tennessee. (They both lost those states). But Bush had a canny view of how it was to shake out, and if you will recall, was telling the press he had not lost Florida, even after the media had declared Gore the winner. Thus while endless streams of ignorant Democrats bray about how the last election was "stolen" by the Electoral College system, they cannot summon the wit, will, or intelligence to state why it continues virtually unchanged to this day. Thus Hillary's ignorance was banished... How 'bout yours? |
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18 Dec 02 - 10:09 PM (#850032) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Amos Claymor3e: The election was NOT stolen by the electoral college system, and your condescending tone does nothing to camouflage your misrepresentation. The election was stolen by (a) disenfranchisement (b) corruption disguised as incompetence in the state of Florida and (c) corruption at the Federal level achieved through the purchase of the Supreme Court. The electoral system simply magnified these factors, because of the apparent narrowness of the balance. A |
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18 Dec 02 - 10:45 PM (#850054) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Bobert What Amos said, Claymore. I guess the FACT that Jeb Bush and Katerine Harris conspired to remove 57,700 voters, overwhelming black, from the roles had nothing to do with the outcome? Or after things were looking bleak for Bush in a recount folks in the military were rounded up to vote after the fact to cast absntee military votes. Or that PAID goon squads were sent into Florida to harrass poll workers and Gore supporters? Is that the way the Founding Fathers envisioned their little experiement called "DEMOCRACY"? Hey, lets not forget the day that the Supreme Court called off "democracy". The entire day before, as manual recounts were being conducted, *your guy's* lead was shrinking and shrinking. Hmmmmm? Might of fact it was shrinking right up until George Bush's Supreme Court stepped in and said "Enough". Yeah, you can trash Hillary Clinton. Hey, I'm not fond of her either! You can trash Al Gore, too. I'm a Greenie. But please don't get up on the lecture stand and tell anyone how George W. Bush won anything. He didn't! And historians, should there be any left after the world war he's about to get us in, will get it straightened out. Jesus told Matthew; "There are no secrets that won't one day be public knowledge" He must have at least 2000 years worth of fore sight... Bobert |
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19 Dec 02 - 01:34 PM (#850515) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: SharonA I didn't watch Al Gore's announcement that he wouldn't run for President in 2004, so I have to ask those who did: Did Gore ever say that he would not run for VICE-President in 2004? If not, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he were someone's running mate then and/or in 2008. On the other hand, if he has decided not to seek either the Presidency or the Vice-Presidency, I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up in a Cabinet post or in some other sort of office appointed by a Democratic President in future. One way or another, he'll be back in DC, I think! |
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19 Dec 02 - 02:23 PM (#850585) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Amos I can guarantee you that had Al Gore been ushered into the White House, we would not be rounding up 'furriners' and throwing them in jail en masse because of their race. I am disgusted with the entire government. A |
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19 Dec 02 - 02:39 PM (#850595) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Bobert I'll top you, Amos, and this spoken not as a Dem but a Greenie. Had Al Gore not been mugged by Bush's mobsters, I don't think 9/11 would have occured. Lets face it, another Bush in the White House probably pissed off almost every Arab in the world and then to have him turn his back on the Middle East must have been like waving a red flag in front of a horney bull. Yeah, I have given this some thought since 9/11, and when you throw in an apparent cover-up that is taking place now on who knew what and when in regards to 9/11, it is my gut feeling that America, and the world, would be in a better place today had democracy not been hijacked. Bobert |
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19 Dec 02 - 02:54 PM (#850607) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: GUEST,Claymore Amos, Bobert, There is not one FACT in either of your entire representations. For example: Voters were removed from rosters by local electoral officials, most of whom were Democrats. (That is because even though there were more counties with Republican electoral officials, the bigger counties were Democrat, had more workers, and removed the largest percentage of the black voters, which of course inhabited their counties.) Neither the Governor nor the Secretary of State have anything to do with registering, removing or certifying voters in any way. That FACT alone really shoots your wackoid consipracy theory in the ass. I have not seen any thing to indicate what the final number nor the percentage of Blacks that were removed. Remember that the Civil Rights Divison of DOJ found no truth at any point to the accusations of the alleged black voters, and took great pains to point out the lies, such as the alleged police harrassment, and the alleged removal of voters who showed no record of EVER having registered, including the black voter who tried to claim he had been prevented from voting when a traffic ticket pointed to the fact he was two STATES over on Election Day. (He later claimed that he was "carried away by the moment"). Twits should understand that to be REMOVED, you first have to have been REGISTERED... An add this to your convienently forgetful minds; both the two largest counties in which Gore had requested counting were shut down two days before the Supreme Court ruled, by those very Democrat electoral officials. And the venal stupidity of your statements is only further increased when you realize that dispite all the previous comments about showing the potential of the disenfranchised vote, Brother Bush and Kathleen Harris CRUSHED their Democrat doormats in last months election (a fact not lost on Mr. Gore before his recent departure...). Do either of you folks have any standing to know what exactly what the word "Conspiracy" means. "Paid goon squads"? "Paid-off Supreme Court Justices"? The one term I will agree with Amos on is the one about "corruption at the Federal level", since the Federal government was, at that moment, in the hands of the biggest bag of puss to ever hold the Presidency (and thankfully Bush changed all that... ). But isn't it uncomfortable when all your so-called facts get so easily demolished with relative ease, by a few details... |
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19 Dec 02 - 03:07 PM (#850614) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: SharonA Bobert: I have to disagree with you about 9/11. Do you really think that Arab terrorists would have been any less displeased to see the US elect a Jewish Vice-President in 2000? Given the Democrats' preparedness for and response to terrorism during Clinton's presidency, do you really think Democrats under Gore would have handled a terrorist threat any better? Please understand that I'm not defending Bush or the Republican party -- I agree with you that, overall, America and the world would be better off if they were not in power right now -- I'm just saying that I think the terrorists' anger against America is not political-party-specific. |
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19 Dec 02 - 03:18 PM (#850619) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: DougR Claymore: you're wasting your breath and typing time. These folks see things as they wish they were. Not as they are. They will NEVER accept the fact that Bush won the election fair and square (as proven by investigations conducted by reputable news organizations after the election), so you might as well get yourself a good novel to read, or go for a walk, or eat some ice cream. Further efforts to convince them of your POV, or even consider it, are just a waste of time. DougR |
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19 Dec 02 - 03:24 PM (#850622) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Ron Olesko I would suggest that you listen to Rod MacDonald's song "For the Good Of America". |
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19 Dec 02 - 05:40 PM (#850690) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Lepus Rex The only time I feel a need to "take shots," though, Mick, is when you post your endless paranoid accusations, or your long-winded, masturbatory name-dropp...er, "celebrity reminiscences." Why not stop both, and we can both be happy? Doug, it looks like Amos, Mick, Bobert, etc. have already given you the answers I would have, so I'll just read one of your posts where you express your dissatisfaction with their answers as a response to me. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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19 Dec 02 - 05:54 PM (#850706) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Amos Right you are, DOug-me-boy. I read every word of the Supremes' report and it was a complete hogwash job. Claymore, you're beneath my minimum just now. A |
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19 Dec 02 - 06:21 PM (#850727) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Bobert Claymore: You are wrong! Now I know that facts tend to get in the way of your rants but in 1997 the Florida state legislature placed the responsibility of purging ex-felons from the voter roles to the office of Katherine Harris. And what was the makeup of this legislative body? Hmmmmm, you guessed it: Repub. This legislation authorized the Secretary of State's office to sub-contract a "scrub" list to a private firm. The contarct was awarded to Database Technologies, which today is the DBT Online unit of Choice Point, Inc., a firm packed with heavy Rebups. on its board of directors. Out of the the first list of ex-felons (8000 voters) Katerine Harris's office "odered counties to purge 8,000 Florida voters who had committed felonies in Texas. In fact (of Database's initial list) none of the group was charged with anything more than misdemeanors." Now, this is just the beginning, Claymore. If you want the entire story you'll have to put your anger at Bill Clinton aside long enough to read Greg Palast's book, "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy". But I know you won't read it. I can support the stuff I say. You don't seem to have that ability. You just go calling people "puss- bags" if you don't *like* them or they might present you with actaul facts to consider. You say that you have all this education so I don't think it would kill you to read the book and then come back and call folks liars. SharonA: You have brought up a good point but had Gore been allowed to take the office that he won, then I think he would have used Lieberman as a hammer in Tel Aviv rather than an antagonist to the Palestinians. That's my opinion, girl. (Hey, I've the P-Vine loving the "turkey scapple... Go think.) Bobert |
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19 Dec 02 - 06:42 PM (#850738) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Big Mick OK, Lepus,...........but you need to control your emotions. It would take you about 2 minutes to check the Gore threads to know that I haven't posted much, if at all to them. I did this time to shed a little light on the man. Sorry that my experiences have bothered you, but I only shared them because I thought they might help folks to understand them. You really need to talk to someone about why that would bother you so. And re-read the post. I don't see much self serving in it. It is a factual account of some of my experiences. Instead of bothering everyone with this, why don't you contact me with a PM so you can share with me what it is I have done that bothers you so. One of the reasons I haven't shared much of this stuff is because of responses like this. Mick |
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19 Dec 02 - 07:24 PM (#850771) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Amos Well, Mick, I really liked it and would love to see more such real-life tales. So that cancels that negative right there, okay, me boyo?? Gotta keep the ole perspective tuned up, isn't it? A |
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19 Dec 02 - 07:28 PM (#850772) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Bobert Mick: I only voted for Gore because I "brokered" my Green vote to where it would be better counted but, I appreciated your post and I appreciated the stories. The media went out out of it's way portraying Bush as a "regular guy" while Gore a "stiff". Heck, the media also gave him the multi million $ PR bonaza with the "Dubya" thing for FREE! Yeah, and when Bush made squinty faces and looked "out of it" during parts of the debates, the media jumped on Gore's sighs. Yeah, it was atotal hatchet job so it's real nice to read of the side that the media wouldn't show. Thanks. And as fir a few of these folks who are so Pro-Bush, heck, they are beyond reason and will stay beyond reason until either their kid comes home in a body bag or John Ashcroft knocks on their door. If George Bush were to walk in their door and take a dump in the middle of their living room, they would put a cage over it as a shrine and bow down to it like some God or icon. They are so steeped in hate. Hate for Bill Clinton getting "a little" in the White House. Hate for anyone who says, "Hey, this ain't about getting laid here but about a lot of innocent folks who are going to be killed for nuthin except providing Boss Hog and their own... jollies." Bobert |
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19 Dec 02 - 07:45 PM (#850796) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Amos Claymore: When you have finsihed the book Bobert recommended to you, take the time to read through "The Bush Dyslexicon", a compilation of facts which I am not taking the time to reconstruct here. It is my considered opinion that the current White House resident is not only there in violation of elective procedures, but is also a psychotic. You have a very different opinion. De gustibus non disputandum, pal. A |
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19 Dec 02 - 11:07 PM (#850906) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Bobert Hey, Amos: Claymore ain't gonna read this book. He's got all the edgey-cation he wants up there at Sheppard College and he don't need no more. Yeah, it's alot easier to hate folks when ya' got all the edgey-cation ya' need. Then ya' don't have to learn nuthin' new and life is good. If yer guy tells ya' to jump into the radiation pit, ya' jus' jumps. Man. life don't getno better than that. Right? Wrong, Claymore and DougR. This ain't about a guy getting laid, it's about the biggest mistake made by a leader of a strong military in over 50 years. Worse than Vietnam because we have Vietnam as a lesson... Bobert |
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20 Dec 02 - 04:43 PM (#851359) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: DougR Bobert: there you go again! Please point out to me in this thread where I mentioned anything about Clinton and him getting laid. In the first place, he didn't get laid. He told everybody with a TV he didn't! Don't you believe him? Anyway, it is the Christmas season and I promised to be good so, "We Three Kings of Orient Are." DougR |
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20 Dec 02 - 06:27 PM (#851423) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Ebbie DougR, please give it the correct title: We Three Kings Disoriented Are. I saw that in another thread and liked its applicability. :) |
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20 Dec 02 - 07:05 PM (#851442) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Bobert Dougie: I'm sorry, my friend. I was just testing your reslove to live up to your vow to be nice to me until Chistmas, and I want to tell you just how impressed I am with you discipline. With that said, ahhh, no you didn't say anything aboput Clinton either gettin' laid or not gettin' laid in this thread and I will admit to exercising a little poetic license. Forgive me.... Bobert |
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20 Dec 02 - 10:27 PM (#851538) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: Peter T. I spent some time at a Washington conference years ago with Gore, and -- contrary to Mick (we do this occasionally) -- I found him to be one of the weirdest people it has ever been my lot to watch in action. He was like a windup doll, and although he gladhanded around the room, and made official eye and hand contact, he gave everyone the creeps. Very intelligent, but like some kind of alien being. I certainly think that Clinton and Gore were a disaster for the environment -- what did they think they were doing all those eight years? -- but a disaster is better than a catastrophe, which is what is happening now.... yours, Peter T. |
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21 Dec 02 - 12:53 AM (#851572) Subject: RE: BS: Gore Bows Out With Class From: DougR Peter T., your description of Gore more closely fits my impression of him than Mick's. However, Mick knows him and I do not and I respect Mick's opinion. Ebbie: thanks for the correction. :>) Bobert: Got to church Sunday! DougR |