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21 Dec 02 - 04:33 PM (#851843) Subject: History of 8th of January From: GUEST,Allan S. I remember the notes of an old 10 inch LP by Jo Stafford, about 1952or so, singing "Southern Mountain Songs" with thr following info. about the Song 8th of January. Christmass was celebrated on the 8th of Jan.in the British Islands. When the early Scots/Irish emigrants seteled in the remote sections of the App. Mts. they continued to use this date long after the date was changed to Dec.25. The fiddle tune Called 8th of Jan. evolved about this time. I remember it as a Square dance tune back in the late 1940's. I believe Johnny Horton? used it for the song "The Battle of New Orlens. Were there any words to the origional tune? When was the date changed?? ANy other info on this?? |
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21 Dec 02 - 04:40 PM (#851848) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Allan C. According to an article I just cited in another Christmas thread: In the first few centuries AD, Christmas as such did not exist - the Christian Church only celebrated the festival of the Resurrection (Easter). According to a Roman almanac, Christmas was being celebrated in Rome by 336 AD. In 354 AD Pope Liberus instituted the Nativity on 25 December. (In the Armenian Church, Christmas on 25 December was never accepted; Christ's birth is celebrated on 6 January.) After Christmas was established in the East, the baptism of Jesus was celebrated on Epiphany, 6 January. In the West, however, Epiphany was the day on which the visit of the Magi to the infant Jesus was celebrated. I haven't seen anything about the date having been moved to the 8th. I'd be curious to know about that. |
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21 Dec 02 - 04:41 PM (#851849) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Porky the Buffet Slayer I don't know about Christmas being celebrated on the 8th of January, but obviously, Johnny Horton used the fiddle tune "The 8th of January" for his song, "The Battle of New Orleans," because the actual battle took place on January 8, 1815. BTW, the War of 1812 had ended on December 24, 1814. The word hadn't gotten to Andrew Jackson, who was leading the American troops. |
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21 Dec 02 - 04:55 PM (#851856) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Snuffy Was it about 1750 that Britain moved from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar, which involved dropping 13 days (in September)?. Some awkward buggers insisted on celebrating it 365 days after the previous one, which gives Jan 8th (possibly). |
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21 Dec 02 - 04:56 PM (#851857) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Malcolm Douglas Ms Stafford's notes don't seem to be very accurate. For a brief explanation of the calendar changes involved, and some interesting comments from Jean Ritchie, see this recent discussion: Joseph and Mary (The Cherry Tree) |
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21 Dec 02 - 04:57 PM (#851858) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Malcolm Douglas My link wasn't very accurate, either. Let's try again: Joseph and Mary (The Cherry Tree) |
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22 Dec 02 - 12:48 PM (#852187) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Abby Sale Although all the above comments are correct, given the time-frame of the traditional songs, nevertheless, the 8th of January date is technically correct, too. Keeping in mind the dating corrections, it goes like this: (Source Duncan Emrich, L of C Anglo-American Songs & Ballads [AFS L14]) Per "old style" reckoning, old Christmas became Jan 5 from 1752 to 1799. In 1800 another day dropped and it became Jan 6; in 1900 the same, to Jan 7. I haven't confirmed this but the convention should be that old Christmas is now Jan 8 and the song suddenly becomes correct. (BTW, for UK & colonies, last day Julian (OS) was Sept 2, 1752; The following day was Sept 14, 1752 Gregorian Calendar (NS) |
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22 Dec 02 - 12:56 PM (#852193) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: kendall Let's give credit where it is due. The Battle of New Orleans was written and originally performed and recorded by Jimmy Driftwood. |
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22 Dec 02 - 02:30 PM (#852228) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: GUEST,Q Members of the Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox Churches observe January 8, not sure about the Greek Orthodox Church. Many Ukrainians here in western Canada (and northern tier of States). See thread on Cherry Tree Carol. |
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22 Dec 02 - 10:27 PM (#852393) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Mark Clark Kendall, Thanks for setting the record straight. I was about to do that myself. GUEST,Q, Would you mind rechecking your sources for that information? There is an Armenian Church that celebrates Christmas on January 6 but it's not due to choice of calendar. They just never accepted the December 25 date. I think you'll find that Canonical Orthodox Churches all celebrate Christmas on December 25 either on the New (Gregorian) or Old (Julian) calendar. Those choosing to celebrate according to the old calendar will celebrate on January 7, Gregorian, until the year 2100 when the difference between the two calendars grows by an additional day. Here are some calendar links that folks might find interesting:
- Mark |
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22 Dec 02 - 11:15 PM (#852410) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: GUEST,Q Mark, you are correct- I'm in the wrong century. Both the Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox churches celebrate January 7. |
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22 Dec 02 - 11:22 PM (#852416) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: GUEST,Q Greek Orthodox uses January 8. |
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23 Dec 02 - 02:11 AM (#852444) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Haruo There is no reason I can imagine for the Greek Orthodox to suddenly move Christmas forward a day like that. Except ignorance. If (like Abby Sale above) they mistakenly believe that every hundred years the calendars move apart by a day, then they will think that they should be celebrating (Julian) Christmas on (Gregorian) January 8th. But in fact, the rule is that a day is added every 100 years except when the century year is divisible by 400. So 1700, 1800, 1900 each triggered an extra day, but 1600 and 2000 did not. In this case, if they are now celebrating Christmas on January 8th, that means they have unilaterally and without just cause moved the date of Christmas from December 25 to December 26. There may be local Greek Orthodox parishes or even dioceses that might conceivably make this error, briefly, but I cannot imagine that the whole Church erred thus. What is your authority for the claim, Guest Q? And while we're at it, we'd better warn them, because the whole point of Orthodoxy is that God doesn't appreciate people who make that kind of mistake. Haruo |
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23 Dec 02 - 10:50 AM (#852514) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Mr Happy well i think it would be far more enjoyable for people in britain to have christmas during the summer, when the weather's warmer and we'd be better able to capitalise on the week or so of enjoying ourselves! not so much chance of coming down with colds & 'flu which can often spoil the whole holiday. and we'd still have the new year festivities to make merry with during the winter |
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23 Dec 02 - 11:47 AM (#852559) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: GUEST I think the important thing to remember about holidays is they are either state sponsored or church sponsored, and many of latter have been used to oust the previous owners' gods and goddesses. Church sponsored holidays tend to be global (like Christmas or Passover) though the customs tend to be local, including the dates. There are so many local celebrations of holidays the Christians now claim as their own, everyone tends to forget the biggest holiday around the world historically, regardless of culture, was the celebration of the new year, whether you celebrated it in November, as the northern European Celts did, or in Jan/Feb as the Chinese do. Nobody has a lock on the dates of Christmas really. Sometimes the reason for different dates is the difference between Roman and the various Orthodox traditions, sometimes it has to do with the change in calendar as noted above, from Gregorian to Julian (or not). Sometimes the bigger local celebration has to do with the local celebration having a stronger hold on the community's identity and psyche. Turns out that prior to the Capitalist Era, folks weren't global in their customs much at all. |
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23 Dec 02 - 11:54 AM (#852564) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: GUEST Oops, meant to also say that not all holiday dates are fixed. Cultures which use lunar calendars. Europeans have long used a solar calendar. |
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23 Dec 02 - 11:55 AM (#852565) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: GUEST,Q Greek Christmas (www.stratsplace.com/rogov/israel/greek_orthodox_christmas,html) |
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23 Dec 02 - 01:25 PM (#852637) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Haruo I suspect this is simple ignorance on Mr. Rogov's part, Q. He appears to be a private Israeli citizen whose webpages focus on cuisine, not calendrics. I can find no other support for Jan. 8th in this connection. The Armenian Church has a divergent position on Christmas dating, but no other extant church tradition to my knowledge currently uses anything but December 25th (either Gregorian or, in some cases, Julian). I am not sure about the Coptic Egyptian and Ethiopian churches, orthodox and monophysite, or about the Nestorians etc. Haruo |
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23 Dec 02 - 02:11 PM (#852678) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: GUEST,Q Harau, I suspect that your knowledge is limited with respect to the Orthodox practices. The churches in the US have mostly gone to Dec, 25, but not elsewhere. Here is the Patriarchal Christmas message for January 7, 2002. Click on Ten spiritual New Year's resolutions, and notice the date for New years, January 14. Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada: Ukrainian Church Canada |
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23 Dec 02 - 02:22 PM (#852688) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: GUEST,Q From Russia to Montenegro- Note date at top of article- January 7, 2002. BBC News: Orthodox Christmas |
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23 Dec 02 - 03:14 PM (#852712) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Mark Clark GUEST is correct that the date of Christmas is arbitrary. The actual date of Christ's birth is not known and may properly be celebrated at any time from an historical perspective. Christians begain a common celebration in the fourth century A.D. when the Church set December 25 as the date to be celebrated. Since that was prior to the Great Schism of 1054, both the Roman and Eastern Orthodox Churches celebrate on December 25. The Greek Orthodox Church uses the New Calendar so their observance coincides with December 25 on the modern (Gregorian) calendar. There are a few “Old Calendar” Orthodox Churches left and most of them originate in Russia and Eastern Europe. - Mark |
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23 Dec 02 - 04:36 PM (#852749) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Charley Noble The Ethiopian Coptic Church correlates with the Eastern Orthodox calendar; when I was teaching there, way back in the 1960's, it was always a joy to have another Christmas to celebrate, an after Ramedan feast, not to mention several animistic holidays. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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24 Dec 02 - 03:23 AM (#852970) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: McGrath of Harlow It's still Christmas on 6th of January anyway, even if you start on 25th - Twelve Days of Christmas, remember. In fact the Christmas season liturgically only ends on Candlemas, which is the Feast of the Presentation, celebrated 2nd February in the Latin rite. I think for Orthodox (and Uniate) Christians that would become February 14th. Have a nice long Christmas. |
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24 Dec 02 - 12:33 PM (#853186) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Abby Sale I see Haruo explained that leap year thing. I checked with Ecclesiastical Calendar (see Mark, above) any way since I know it to be a very careful and thorough (and arithmetic) site on this stuff. Marcos Montes there concurs: 1800 was a leap year in Julian Calendar, not in Gregorian, so another day dropped. 1900 was a leap year in Julian, not in Gregorian, so another day dropped. 2000 is a leap year in both calendars, so no extra day dropped. The next day dropped will be in 2100, which is a leap year in the Julian calendar, but not in the Gregorian." He also gives some good info in the distinction between "Old Calendarists" who use the Julian Calendar to determine the date of ALL religious feasts...and the "New Calendarists" who use the Julian Calendar for movables (eg Easter) but Gregorian for fixed celebrations. I think I'll go home and celebrate Yap Constitution Day today and Haym Salomon Day on Jan 6th and the Japanese Bullfinch Festival on Jan 7th and Chou En-Lai Day on the 8th. That will do it for the year. (Many Asians use varying but related lunar calendars AND Gregorian calendars for other things.) The notion of using different calendars simultaneously isn't unusual. |
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24 Dec 02 - 06:52 PM (#853317) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Mark Clark Abby, Your last observation is quite correct. In fact all “New Calendar” Orthodox Churches use two calendars at the same time. They use the Gregorian system for all the fixed Feast Days and the Julian system for all the moveable Feast Days. This practice upsets the Old Calendarists because, in certain years, the Apostle's Fast, which has a fixed date but must follow Pentecost—a moveable feast—can disappear entirely. Since, in the Orthodox Church, the observance of Pascha is calculated using March 21, Julian, as the fixed date of the vernal equinox, the moveable feasts will eventually march clear through the Gregorian calendar. - Mark |
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25 Dec 02 - 01:12 PM (#853600) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Dead Horse So when is Easter? |
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26 Dec 02 - 01:51 PM (#853739) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Abby Sale 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 Orthodox Lent 2/22 3/13 2/26 3/18 3/10 2/23 3/14 Orthodox Easter 4/11 4/30 4/15 5/5 4/27 4/11 3/27 I believe that in 2004 Orth & Western Easters will coincide. Far as nI can tell, some or the more interesting days, such as Quasimodo or Pancake Tuesday are only celebrated in the Western church. And not all that many of them, either. |
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26 Dec 02 - 02:49 PM (#853762) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Snuffy Easter Day is the Sunday after the full moon after the equinox (March 21). Sometimes it is the same in Gregorian and Julian calendars, other times it is a (lunar) month different. |
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26 Dec 02 - 06:00 PM (#853787) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Haruo Guest Q: "Harau, I suspect that your knowledge is limited with respect to the Orthodox practices. The churches in the US have mostly gone to Dec, 25, but not elsewhere." I don't deny my knowledge of Orthodox practices is limited (in fact, I'd never heard of the New-vs-Old Calendarists thing, only the basic Julius-vs-Greg one) but the issue on which I was differing with you and your cited authority was your assertion that the Greek Orthodox are currently celebrating Christmas on (Gregorian) January 8th. On that point I am virtually sure that you and Mr. Rogov are incorrect. This near certainty is based on the issue of when leap year is observed in the two calendars - which is in fact the main difference between the two. The Julius figured a leap year every four years would be close enough for government work, but by the time Gregory checked the numbers it was clear that tweaking was in order, to the tune of reducing the number of leap years by 3 out of every 400 years. And since 2000 was one of the exceptions that proved the rule, Jan. 7 did not change to Jan. 8 for Xmas purposes. Now, Greek Orthodox may celebrate Chou En-Lai Day on January 8th, along with the rest of the world. I know I will, thanks to Abby. Haruo |
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26 Dec 02 - 09:58 PM (#853869) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Mr Happy well all that academic & pseudo-astrological mumbo-jumbo aside, i'm very happy to report i had 2 xmas days this year- the 25th at work with turkey dinner! & again 2day 26th invited to fiends also working on xnas day- another turkey dinner!-- hip, hip, hooray . hope all else every body mudtats had super time!! seasons greetings! Mr H |
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26 Dec 02 - 10:53 PM (#853894) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Mark Clark Snuffy, Orthodox Pascha (Greek for Passover) and Western Easter only coincide when the Paschal full moon—the first full moon following the vernal equinox—is later than April 3 on our modern (Gregorian) calendar. That's because Julian Calendar dates are currently thirteen days later than their corresponding Gregorian dates. Thus, April 3, Gregorian, equates to March 21, on the Julian Calendar. It's possible for Orthodox Pascha to follow Western Easter by as much as five weeks. Beginning in the year 2100, the Paschal full moon must be later than April 4 for the two observances to coincide. In a couple of thousand years, when the gap between the two calendars exceeds a full lunar cycle, Orthodx Pascha and Western Easter will never coincide; at least for a hundred thousand years or so. - Mark |
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27 Dec 02 - 02:26 PM (#854173) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: Abby Sale The Easter problems are deserved. In the earliest days of the Church, the synod (my fuzzy brain says 270 ce in Spain) declared that all efforts should be made to separate out the church from Judaism. One rule was to forbid observation of the Sabbath (non-work, etc on Saturday) and only to observe the Lord's Day (prayer on Sunday) - many had been observing both to follow both the Bible and church rules. Another was to forbid the dating of Easter from Jewish calculation of Passover. It was to be retained (along with Mardi Gras, Whitsun Wednesday, etc) as a movable from the Jewish calendar but they had to invent a whole new way to do it. I feel the Jews were smart enough to recognize a good calendar when they saw one (ie, the Babylonian calendar - that's why Jewish New Year is in the middle of the Jewish year) and I propose that the East-West church schism might never have happened if they'd just stuck with the good old, well-proven Babylonian calendar. So the REAL issue is, is that the reason that Child #14 is called Babylon? Because you're supposed to sing it on Chinese New Year? |
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27 Dec 02 - 02:29 PM (#854176) Subject: RE: History of 8th of January From: McGrath of Harlow "...Pancake Tuesday are only celebrated in the Western church. And not all that many of them, either." I'd have thought that Mardi Gras is pretty widely celebrated. |