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23 Dec 02 - 02:16 PM (#852683) Subject: The Lord's Prayer wording From: GUEST,Sheila I have heard recited/sung the words "Forgive us our debts" as well as "Forgive us our trepasses" in the Lord's prayer. Is this a denominational or geographic difference? Thank you and Happy Holidays. |
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23 Dec 02 - 02:20 PM (#852687) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: MMario also "forgive us our sins". It may be - though I have heard all three versions used during Epicopalian services. |
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23 Dec 02 - 02:43 PM (#852694) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: Don Firth In some of the more stiff-lipped fundamentalist sects, mini-jihads have been fought over which word one is "supposed" to use, but basically, it's a matter of local option. No verwhelming "authority" on the matter. Thus spaketh a retired pastor of my acquaintance:-- The word "trespasses" was lobbied for around the time of the King James translation because landowning aristocrats wanted to invoke Divine Authority against trespassers and poachers. The idea was to equate trespassing with sin. A bit self-defeating, actually, because after a night of heavy poaching, all the poacher needed to do was recite the Lord's Prayer and as far as his heavenly status was concerned, he was off the hook. Don Firth |
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23 Dec 02 - 02:48 PM (#852697) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: Jeanie Here's the Cockney version (from "The Bible in Cockney" by Mike Coles): Hello, Dad, up there in good ol' heaven, Your name is well great and holy, and we respect you, Guv. We hope we can all 'ave a butcher's at heaven and be there as soon as possible, and we want to make you happy, Guv, and do what you want 'ere on earth, just like what you do in heaven. Guv, please give us some Uncle Fred, and enough grub and stuff to keep us going today, and we hope you'll forgive us when we cock things up, just like we're supposed to forgive all them who annoy us and do dodgy stuff to us. There's a lot of dodgy people around, Guv; please don't let us get tempted to do bad things. Help keep us away from all nasty, evil stuff, and keep that dodgy Satan away from us, 'cos you're much stronger than 'im. You're the Boss, God, and will be forever, innit ? Cheers, Amen ***** Lovely jubbly ! - jeanie |
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23 Dec 02 - 02:55 PM (#852702) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: *daylia* I think the wording depends on which gospel/edition/translation of the Bible is being used. In the Jerusalem (Catholic) edition, which is (supposedly) the most accurate modern translation of the original Hebrew/Greek, it says: "Father, may your name be held holy, Your kingdom come; give us each day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive each one who is in debt to us. And do not put us to the test." Luke 11:2-5 But in the same edition, in the gospel of Matthew, it reads: "Our Father in heaven, may your name be held holy, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven those who are in debt to us. And do not put us to the test, but save us from the evil one." Matthew 6:9-13 The Gideon edition I have is the same - Matthew speaks of 'debts', while Luke speaks of 'sins'. And there's no mention of 'trespasses' in either, although "trespasses' IS the word used when the prayer is recited at Catholic Mass! daylia |
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23 Dec 02 - 04:38 PM (#852750) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: Joe Offer Remember that the New Testament was written in Greek, and there is no such thing as an "exact" translation from one language to another. When I studied New Testament Greek, I used the Revised Standard Version as a "dog," and it helped me quite a bit. The Jerusalem Bible and the Catholic "New American Bible" are also very good modern translations, but I'll stick with my Revised Standard Version (well, now I use the New Revised Standard Version). The Gideons generally distribute the King James or "Authorized Version" of 1611. As English literature, the King James Version is probably far superior to any other version ever published - but a good translation demands far more than simple literary value. The 20th century translations use original texts and archaeological knowledge that are far more accurate than the Greek and Hebrew texts available to the translators of the 17th century. The Gospel of Luke contains a version of the Lord's Prayer, but the version in general use is taken from the Gospel of Matthew (Matthew 6:9-13) - part of the Sermon on the Mount (one of five long sermons in Matthew). Although it comes from Scripture, the translation of the Lord's Prayer follows rules that are different from those used for translation of other passages. People use the Lord's Prayer apart from scripture study - both in religious services and in private prayer. A prayer is memorized, and people treasure memorized prayers for a lifetime, and pass them from one generation to the next. People rightfully expect that they won't have to memorize a new version of the Lord's Prayer every time a new Bible translation comes into use. As a result, churches accept a standardized translation, and they're reluctant to make changes when a new translation proves to be more accurate. For prayers, the meter and sound of the words are often almost as important as the meaning - and permanence of the wording is also far more important than it is for the rest of the Bible. I grew up in the Catholic Church, and learned "forgive us our trespasses" in the 1950's (even though the Catholic "Confraternity Version" Bible of the time said "forgive us our debts" - and the current Catholic "New American Bible" also uses "debts"). Looks like most of the commonly-used Bibles use "forgive us our debts," but we Catholics keep on saying "trespasses." I think I prefer the meter of the Catholic version, and I don't think there's much difference in meaning. As for the final phrase, "for Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory," it's generally thought that this phrase was added by some pious scribe, quite some time after the original Gospel was written. In a gesture toward unity, the Roman Catholics have used the phrase in liturgy since the 1970's - although not tied directly to the Lord's Prayer. The phrase is called a doxology, a prayer of praise that was appended to the Lord's Prayer in liturgical services, especially in the eastern half of the Roman Empire. This doxology is quite early, perhaps as far back as the second century - but not originally part of the Lord's Prayer. As for debts and trespasses, it doeesn't seem to make a lot of difference. It's interesting to note, though, that the English versions of the Lord's Prayer are substantially the same as they were in the 16th Century. Maybe earlier - I couldn't find information on earlier versions. Except for the debt/trespass question, both versions are almost exactly what's in the King James Bible of 1611 (debts) and the 1559 Book of Common Prayer (trespasses) - both from the Church of England. Click here for a history of English translations of the Lord's Prayer. -Joe Offer- |
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23 Dec 02 - 05:48 PM (#852786) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: Ebbie Don Firth, is that tongue in cheek? I can't imagine anyone thinks that 'trespass' was/is being used in that manner for this particular prayer. Kind of like saying, 'And forgive me for cutting across the fields when I took a short cut'. I don't think that God cares. |
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23 Dec 02 - 06:24 PM (#852804) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: Cluin And in Nadsat: Our Pee, who art in Bog and all his Angels Hallowed be thy eemya |
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23 Dec 02 - 06:40 PM (#852808) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Also, I think there are two variants in the Bible. There is one in Matthew as well as the one listed above in Luke. I go to St. Matthew's so it's the Matthew version we use. |
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23 Dec 02 - 08:49 PM (#852862) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: GUEST,Bill (the sound) Our lager Which art in barrels, Hallowed be thy drink. thy will be drunk, At home as in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, And forgive us our spillages, As we forgive those who spill against us. and lead us not to incarceration, But deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager. Forever and ever. Barmen. |
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23 Dec 02 - 08:54 PM (#852867) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: Joe Offer I'm still looking, and I've found some interesting stuff. I revised my post above to reflect some of it. This page says that the current wording of the Lord's Prayer was mandated by King Henry VIII while he was still in union with the Roman Church, based on the English version of the Bible produced by Tyndale (1525). It sounds credible, but I wish he'd cited his sources. There have been slight changes and differences over the years - debts/trespasses, who art/which art, and on earth/in earth. Those differences are really minor - otherwise, we're using a translation that goes back almost 500 years. -Joe Offer- |
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23 Dec 02 - 10:55 PM (#852894) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: *daylia* Thank you Joe for the most interesting link! I've been thinking about the difference between "who art" and "which art". "Which art" implies an impersonal 'God" - perhaps an 'energy', a 'state of consciouness' existing in and through all things. "Who is implies a PERSONAL 'God'... 'who' exists somewhere, but definitely apart from oneself. These differences DO have a signifigant effect on what people are taught to believe about the nature of 'God' and themselves as spiritual beings!! IMO there's a big difference between "on earth" and "in earth" as well. "In earth" implies that 'God' is IN the earth, that Earth is therefore sacred and holy. "On earth" implies that 'God' exists apart and separate from earth, and earth is therefore no longer sacred and holy. And thus, perhaps, people's attitudes were prepared for the onset of economic capitalistism - the exploitation and destruction of the Earth and all of 'Her' resources which coincided with the Protestant revolution. And 'cured' the 'pagans' of their self-empowering earth-oriented ways ... Could that have been Henry's counsel?? Hmmm daylia |
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23 Dec 02 - 10:59 PM (#852898) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: *daylia* Sorry, I meant to say "'Who art' implies a PERSONAL 'God' - who exists somewhere, but definitely outside oneself"! daylia |
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23 Dec 02 - 10:59 PM (#852899) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: JedMarum Thanks Joe. |
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24 Dec 02 - 02:37 AM (#852964) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: Joe Offer Well, daylia, I think people who base their faith on words, just don't get the idea what faith is all about. I suppose one could argue that "which" implies an impersonal God, but "father" certainly implies a personal one. And yes, there is a shade of difference between on earth and in earth and between debts and trespasses - but the basic meaning of the prayer is still the same. Those who dwell on minor differences are those who are unable to see the proverbial forest for the trees. -Joe Offer- |
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24 Dec 02 - 03:22 AM (#852969) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: Steve Parkes I understand that the word Jews use for father (and presumably Jesus used) when referring to God is abba, which means, more-or-less, Daddy, that is to say, it's the same word one would use when addressing one's own father, rather than a formal form. Steve |
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24 Dec 02 - 04:24 AM (#852990) Subject: ADD: The Laird's Prayer (McLean) From: Jim McLean Here's a song I wrote for a Highland Clearance collection. It's called The Laird's Prayer Oh God who sends us all things - partridge, grouse, and deer Send the aristocracy to dae some hunting here My loyal Royal ancestors who got me this estate To please their English masters forced the folk to emigrate, Forced the folk to emigrate, Oh Lord thou kenst me well Though my name's MacPhee I'll try to be As English as yersel' I'm a simple Highland lairdie, so hear my lairdie's prayer And always on the Sabbath I'll be yours for evermair The fishing here is sacred, there's peace within the glen Since you helped us clear the Highlands of the Sabbath-drinkin' men, Of the Sabbath drinkin men, Oh Lord thou kenst me well Though my name's MacPhee I'll try to be As English as yersel' The empty crofters shielings, we've turned into pens For sheep can aye be bought and sold, but men are - well: just men You ken this fine, great shepherd, for you would do the same Except for your righteous English flock of double-barrelled name, Of double-barrelled name. Oh Lord thou kenst me well Though my name's MacPhee I'll try to be As English as yersel' How holy is Balmoral, now all our hymns are sung By our betters down in Crathie in the Anglo-Saxon tongue And should the Gaels return, and I am forced to flee Let me be down in London town, nearer, my God, to Thee. Nearer my God to Thee. Oh Lord thou kenst me well Though my name's MacPhee I'll try to be As English as yersel' Jim McLean |
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24 Dec 02 - 05:18 AM (#853017) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: GUEST,Paul Burke Jeanie: "You're the Boss, God, and will be forever, innit ? Cheers, Amen" Why the alien Amen when Cockney/ Estuarian has the completely synonymous word "sor'ed"? |
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24 Dec 02 - 08:10 AM (#853068) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: GUEST,leeneia Well, I think there's a real difference between trespasses and debts. One can repay a debt, but one can't untrespass. The day before yesterday, a man here smothered his three-month-old daughter. There is no way he can ever call that a debt and pay it off. |
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24 Dec 02 - 08:35 AM (#853079) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: C-flat Our Father who art in heaven "Harold" be thy name.... |
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24 Dec 02 - 08:40 AM (#853080) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: Jerry Rasmussen This is an interesting thread... very Mudcattish. It isn't the exact words that are used in a prayer that matters to me, it's the Spirit in which it is lifted up. One of the greatest problems in faith is that in memorizing prayers and rituals, they can end up being said by rote. In the long run, it's the sincerity and yearning that a single person brings to prayer, as it is a one-on-one conversation with God. Praying together can be a wonderful way to join together as one in approaching the Lord, or for some, it can just become a ritual, where the mind is wandering onto whether they remembered to turn off the oven. When Christ told us to pray as he taught us in what is now called The Lord's Prayer, I think he wanted to show us the "way" to pray, and how to approach our Father in humility and Thanksgiving. Many years ago, I was in a church where the Pastor encouraged us to reflect on the Lord's prayer, and write down our reflections. I ended up writing two pages just on the importance of the word "Our." The choice of words is important. More important is the need to truly reflect on what we are saying. In that case, this is a wonderful thread, because people here are doing just that. There is a saying that we are to be "in this world, but not of this world." That is, we are physically "in" this world, but spiritually, we are not to find our meaning in worldly things. Personally, I've been more irritated with the change in some contemporary hymnals that substitutes "saved and set me free" for "saved a wretch like me" in Amazing grace. Maybe calling ourselves a wretch isn't politically correct. I'm surprised they didn't change it to "saved a pretty darned good person who ocassionally makes a mistake like me" Guess the meter wouldn't work.... Jerry |
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24 Dec 02 - 09:15 AM (#853096) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: masato sakurai There's a site of The Lord's Prayer in 1221 languages and dialects: ENGLISH EARLY MODERN ENGLISH ~Masato |
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24 Dec 02 - 10:03 AM (#853119) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: *daylia* C-flat you sound like an 'Eckist'! The name of their spiritual leader IS 'Harold'!! The Eckists have a version of "Amazing Grace" (written by Harold) that goes "... how sweet the sound that TOUCHED A SOUL LIKE ME". No wretchedness, and it even has meter too! Jerry and Joe, I agree that faith is based on a lot more than words, but words are VERY powerful things, especially to young children first learning language. I tried saying the Lord's Prayer using " which art" and "in earth" and for me, those words gave a whole new idea, new feeling to the prayer. I think my concept of 'God', of the earth I live on (not 'in' but 'on'), and myself would have been 'moulded' differently had I been taught THOSE words from earliest childhood! IMO a necessary step in spriritual growth is to move beyond 'faith' into the realm of direct personal experience. When that happens, what started as 'faith' becomes real KNOWLEDGE, and no-one/nothing can ever shake it! One need no longer rely on outside institutions - which obviously MUST have 'earthly' agendas and interests - or clergy or dogma to 'communicate' with or experience the Divine. But to have direct personal experiences with the Divine independant of the Church's prescribed rituals and teachings, and to admit these experiences publicly used to be enough to get one burned at the stake as a 'heretic'! Look what happened to Joan of Arc, for example! The Churches would have no mandate, no means of power and control over 'the masses', and no means of accumulating wealth if everyone knew they could experience 'Divine revelation' on their own! Let's not forget that Jesus Himself fought against the power-and-control and greed of the Temple of His day. That 'blasphemy' cost Him his earthly life! And He did teach that whatever great works He had done, we also could do - and even greater works too! For me, that says it ALL about our nature as spiritual beings! Thank you so much to Mudcat for this chance to learn and to share my thoughts. I mean NO OFFENSE to ANYONE'S religious sensibilities! And I'm grateful I can say these things today without fear for my life. Peace and love, daylia |
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24 Dec 02 - 10:16 AM (#853124) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: C-flat Weird moment! As I'm re-reading this thread the radio, playing in the background, is broadcasting a service from a church somewhere and has just delivered the Lords Prayer! *day-liah*, an "Eckist"? Sounds like a Yorkshireman! "By-'eck!" |
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24 Dec 02 - 10:30 AM (#853134) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: GaryDon My feeling of the Debts is that it extends to uncondition gifts. For many it seems as though a favor done constitutes a debt incurred. Where spititually a gift or a favor done incurres NO debt. This is the debt I believe he was talking about. For when the debt of haveing to pay or repay favor for favor is relieved then gifts can truly be gifts allowing for the Love he talked about so much to grow and foster in mankind. JMHO Gary® |
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24 Dec 02 - 11:12 AM (#853154) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: *daylia* Sorry to go on so long, but here's some information about the doxology "For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power and Glory forever and ever". These words are used in the Hebrew Caballah, described in Webster's dictionary as "a medieval and modern system of Jewish theosophy, mysticism, and thaumaturgy marked by a belief in creation through emanation and a cipher method of interpreting Scripture ... an esoteric doctrine or mysterious art". Caballists use these words - in Hebrew (ie. ATEH [for Thine], MALKUTH [the Kingdom], VEH GEBURAH [the Power], VEH GEDULAH [the Glory], LEH OLAM [forever and ever] AMEN [so be it]) - as they perform an exercise called the Caballistic Cross. As the words are intoned, one touches the forehead, the heart, the right shoulder and then the left shoulder, while visualizing a Cross of Divine Light being formed within and around the body. The Caballists use this exercise as a powerful blessing to begin and end their spiritual rites. The Jews were very much feared throughout medieval Europe because of their powerful 'magical' rites. In fact, a 'cabal'- the root word of 'caballah' - means "the artifices and intrigues of a group of persons secretly united TO BRING ABOUT AN OVERTURN OR USURPTION ESPECIALLY IN PUBLIC AFFAIRS". What intrigues me about this is that it is so similiar to the Catholic 'Sign of the Cross'! The only diffences being the words spoken, the fact that the right shoulder is touched before the left one (which makes sense because the Hebrew language is written from right to left), and no visualizations are employed! It's also interesting that the Protestants included the WORDS, by adding them to the Lord's Prayer, but left out the motions in their liturgy. Similiarly, the Catholics kept the motions but changed the words. Could it be that the Christians of either persuasion were interested in garnering for themselves the 'mysterious' POWER of the ancient Hebrew rite WITHOUT becoming totally 'Jewish'? Again, Hmmmmmm daylia |
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24 Dec 02 - 11:33 AM (#853166) Subject: RE: The Lord's Prayer wording From: *daylia* Masato sakurai - thanks for the links! I enjoyed that ... C-flat, the Eckists (members of a US-based 'new-age' organization started in the late 60's called 'ECKANKAR - the Religion of the Light and Sound of God') would call that 'weird experience' a "waking dream" and recommend that you take it quietly into contemplation to find out what it's 'deeper meaning' is for you. Go for it if you're into that kind of thing! Oh, and C-flat are you really a Bee? He he he ;-) daylia |