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27 Jun 98 - 02:27 PM (#31511) Subject: All for me grog From: I am looking for information regarding the song All For Me Grog, which I learned from a Clancy Brothers CD. I really like the song, and I have plans to record it for a debut album. In the case of the Clancy's version, I would have to get the mechanical rights to do so. However, I've noticed the song exists in a traditional form and I may not have to bother with rights depending on my choice of lyrics. I suspected this song may be a traditional piece which existed prior to the Clancy Brother's version because I've heard it performed at Renaissance faires with completely different verses. Anyone who has any details regarding this songs history, please contact me privately at: jdeprisco@paonline.com or visit my web site at: www.mindspeak.com |
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27 Jun 98 - 02:58 PM (#31515) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Bruce O. Version in DT as "Here's to the Grog" |
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27 Jun 98 - 08:28 PM (#31533) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Barbara The song All for me grog was collected by Kidson and Moffat from a Yorkshire sailor and publish in English Peasnt Songs in 1929. Peter Kennedy has it as a variant of Here's to the Grog in the Folksongs of Britain and Ireland. So I guess that you could say that it's traditional, it's the arrangement that isn't. |
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27 Jun 98 - 09:13 PM (#31535) Subject: Lyr Add:: ALL FOR ME GROG (Australian version)^^ From: Alan of Australia G'day, Here's the Aussie version:- ALL FOR ME GROG Well I am a ramblin' lad me story it is sad And it's all for me grog, me jolly jolly grogWell I'm stiff, stony broke and I've parted from me moke And the sky is lookin' black as flamin' thunder The shanty boss is blue 'cause I haven't got a sou That's the way they treat you when you're down and under.
I'm crook in the head and I haven't been to bed
I'll take to the Old Man Plain, and criss-cross him once again
So it's hang yer jolly grog, yer hocussed shanty grog Cheers, |
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28 Jun 98 - 01:48 AM (#31539) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: rosebrook From a crew member of the tall ship Lady Washington, I learned the non-smoking (though who wants to be be PC singing a raunchy beer guzzling song?!) chorus which goes:
And it's all for me grog, me jolly, jolly grog |
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28 Jun 98 - 10:31 PM (#31581) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Barry Finn Vice Admiral Sir Edward Vernon, England's hero of the 1739 War Of Jenkins's Ear, was nickname Old Grog because of an impressive grogam cloak he wore on deck in all weather. In 1740 with half the punishments handed down by the Brittish Navy involved drunkeness, Old Grog issued an order, to curb the drunkness on board ships of his own command, that rum be diluted with water, 1/2 pint rations, split to be given 6 hrs apart, in anger & protest this mix bares his nickname, this became the ration for the Royal Navy. Rum will also not stay long after being watered down, so there'd be no use to try & save up rations. Here's to your health, Barry |
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29 Jun 98 - 04:38 AM (#31599) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Pete M Quite right Barry, I would also add that the ommisson of a reference to 'baccy as a stand on non smoking misses the point. Any one caught smoking on a ship of the line would probably have been hung for gross negligence endangering His Majestys' Ship. Fire always was and remains the greatest danger on a ship. 'Baccy was chewed, with at least on merchant men, spitoons being provided alongside the wheel for use by the helmsman. Anyone caught spitting on the deck would likewise be flogged. The whiteness of the decks was a measure of the capability of the First Lieutenant: "Six days shalt thou labour and do all that thou has to do. On the Seventh thou shalt holystone the decks and clean out the chain locker." One other titbit of Naval lore. Although the hands were mustered for Divine service on Sunday, this was of secondary importance to the reading of the Articles of War, read aloud to ensure that no enlisted man could claim ignorance of them. The majority of the articles had as penalty "Death or such lesser punishment as the court may decide." Pete M |
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30 Jun 98 - 09:21 PM (#31733) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: O'Boyle The band the Wake does a chorus that begins "Where is my dick..." so it's all open to interpretation. Slainte Rick |
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05 Apr 99 - 02:07 PM (#68286) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Barry Finn Refresh. Barry |
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05 Apr 99 - 02:49 PM (#68296) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: MMario I have heard this sung with several alternate lines in the chorus: I've spent all me tin on the lassies drinkin' gin I've spent all me brass on a pretty little lass I've spent all me gold on a lassie that is bold MMario |
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05 Apr 99 - 03:01 PM (#68298) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Sandy Paton I collected a version in Connecticut, which I finally got on tape after the singer had moved to New Hampshire. It was learned from the grandfather of the singer, a man who lived in South Carolina. It's slower, more pensive, and says: I spent all I had in cash on the girls to cut a dash, Now I'm left in this wide world to wander. Bruce or Barry may correct me, but this is the only version I know of that has been collected in the U.S. I'd be happy to post the text, if anyone is interested, but I can't do the music thing. Sandy |
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05 Apr 99 - 04:06 PM (#68307) Subject: DTADD: ALL FOR ME GROG (Australian version) From: Twilight I just posted this for leprechaun in the thread 'me jolly jolly grog', but I thought maybe I should stick it here too (if not then I'm sorry about getting your thread wrong, I'm new to all of this) The Oz version of 'All for me grog' is reworked from a sailor's song 'Noggin Boots' or 'Across the Western Ocean'. I tried finding the sailor version in the database, but it wouldn't let me search for anything today, so I've copied what I have: ALL FOR ME GROG Chorus:
1: (Chorus)
2: (Chorus)
4: I'm sick in the head and I haven't been to bed
I've also heard it sung with the third verse about the wife:
3: Where is me wife, me noggin', noggin' wife?
Or the third verse about the bed:
3: Where is me bed, me noggin' noggin bed? Here's an alternative last verse (this is the one I'm used to hearing at the Irishman here in Stavanger):
4: Finally there's also an alternative chorus (from a Irish pub in England):
Well it's all for me grog, me jolly jolly grog This is what I've collected on the sailor version of the song. I don't know much more about it unfortunately, but I though you might like some more versions. Vibeke :) |
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05 Apr 99 - 04:24 PM (#68311) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: At the Bay Area Renaissance Festival, our common line is "For I spent all me tin on the lassies, drink, and gin." But go to a festival just upstate, and it changes to "For I spent all me loot in a house of ill repute." I would imagine that locale and festival tradition could also determine the lyrics. More than likely, there are as many versions of this song as there are Rennies. Be afraid! |
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10 Apr 99 - 12:22 AM (#69584) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Barry Finn Hi Sandy, didn't know of any versions from the U.S. but Helen Creighton does have a version from Nova Scotia which she titles "Western Ocean" in her 'Songs & Ballads from Novia Scotia'. See ya, Barry |
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10 Apr 99 - 12:54 AM (#69597) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Sandy Paton Yeah, Barry, we'll see you at NEFFA! Hope we can get some other 'Catters there, too. Meanwhile, I'll go look at the Creighton version and see how it compares with the one we've recorded. Thanks for the guidance. Sandy |
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10 Apr 99 - 01:45 AM (#69614) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: tmtucker@bright.net This is truly amazing! I love this song, as I do many but unable to add anything to it since it is after all a seafaring riff. What I think is so cool is all the different versions you can get from everyone out there in cyberland! What a wonderful world! Ok, I can't help on this one but if any one needs help with an appalachian song give me a line. Maybe I can help with those. Best of luck to all, Tucker |
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20 Apr 99 - 07:10 PM (#72286) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Reiver #2 (inactive) Great stuff on the various versions of All For Me Grog. As 1/2 of the Reivers (we sang in British Columbia in the 1970s and early '80s) we sang a version we got froma a recording called Irish Drinking Songs by the group The Jolly Beggarmen. We sang it "For I spent all my tin on the lassie's drinkin gin", but the words sung by the Jolly Beggarman may have been "... on the lassies, drink and gin".... I can't really tell. They also sang "... me lovin', lovin' boots", (and shirt in the next verse), and "...jolly, jolly grog" in the chorus. The term "noggin", I think may have been the original, however. They also sang "Since first I came ashore with me slumber", but as The Reivers we always sang "plunder". In the live recording I have the Beggarmen go right from that song into "Dicey Riley" and we always sang the two in combination as a kind of medley. The information in the thread re. the origin of the term grog is correct. Also, the fact that the tobacco would have been chewed, not smoked, on board ships is correct. Fire was feared more than anything else on the old wooden sailing ships. This bears on the line in Dicey Riley, "... the heart of the roll is Dicey Riley." The tobacco used was "packaged" by rolling up the tobacco leaves. The best were in the middle, or heart, of the roll, with the lower quality leaves on the outside. Hence, Dicey Riley, is regarded as a person of high quality in spite of having "... taken to the slop." If anyone has more information, or more verses (I have only one verse and the chorus), to Dicey Riley, I'd like to see it posted. Perhaps a new thread would be called for. Reiver #2 |
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20 Apr 99 - 08:07 PM (#72292) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Mick Lowe This probably should be a new thread, but just to reply to Reiver#2, the version of Dicey Riley I have has it as "rowl", which I believe has nothing to do with tobacco, then again I am sure I shall be corrected. Cheers Mick |
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20 Apr 99 - 08:12 PM (#72296) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Mick Lowe And having just checked up, it would appear that "rowl" is the same as roll and does refer to baccy... well you live and learn... Mick |
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16 Mar 01 - 09:35 AM (#419009) Subject: Lyr Add: CONCRETE AND GLASS parody-All for Me Grog From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C In the interests of folk process, I'm adding this anti-urban renewal parody of this fine traditional song, which itself is a reworking of an earlier parody from the Sidney inner city neighborhood of Wooloomooloo, reworked to fit Portland, Maine's waterfront. CONCRETE AND GLASS (Charlie Ipcar - ©1985 Adapted from Denis Kevans' & Seamus Gill's Australian parody of "All for Me Grog" © 1973) Oh, me name it is Fred, In Portland born and bred, And the Old Port used to be me home, boys But 'tis caused me heart to grieve, For I've had to take me leave, Now across them western suburbs I must roam, boys! Chorus: In concrete and glass, Portland's disappearing fast; 'Tis all gone for profit and for plunder; Though we really want to stay, They keep forcing us away, Now across them western suburbs we must wander! Now, where is me house, Me old three-decker house? 'Tis all gone for profit and for plunder; For the wreckers of the town Just come up and knocked it down; Now across them western suburbs we must wander! And where is me pub, Me Irish Village Pub? 'Tis all gone for profit and for plunder; Now when you walk in the door, You'll find condo's on each floor, And you'll have to fly to Dublin for your beer, boys! And where is me port, Me old working port? 'Tis all gone for profit and for plunder; Now when you walk down the dock, All ye'll hear is disco rock; And ye'll have to dry yer nets in a laundromat, boys! And where is me bank, Me old Maine Savings Bank? 'Tis all gone for profit and for plunder; Now who can ye trust When all the banks go bust; So across them western suburbs we must wander! Now, before the city's wrecked Them developers must be decked; For 'tis plain to see they do not give a bugger, And if them bandits have their way We soon shall see the day That we'll all be driving in from Madawaska!* * A small town in northern Maine on the Canadian border about 6 hours from Portland.
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16 Mar 01 - 11:49 AM (#419110) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: aussiebloke G'day... From the Aussie version above: (thanks Alan) So it's hang yer jolly grog, yer hocussed shanty grog The beer that is loaded with tobacco Graftin' humour I am in, and I'll stick the peg right in And settle down once more to some hard yakka. The reference to tobacco here is in relation to the grog-sellers practice of adding tobacco to alcohol (hocussed grog), which would apparently knock you out. When the shearer woke up in the morning, he was told he had shouted drinks all around, and had spent his whole seasons paycheck on drinks in one not so memorable night. The process was referred to as 'lambing down' and is a common theme in Aussie folk songs. Mark Gregory's excellent Aussie song site provides the musical notation, and he lists the song title as 'Across the Western Plains', he provides these notes: First printed in the Bulletin in May 1916. Reworked from a sailor's song 'Noggin Boots' or 'Across the Western Ocean' This version from the singing of A.L.Lloyd who writes "Sung straight the song never seemed to me wildly exiting, but once I heard a drunken shearer named White sing it on a station near Bethungra NSW, in a way that would make the hair stand on end." Cheers aussiebloke |
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27 Jun 03 - 03:31 PM (#973436) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Irish sergeant I have heard the chorus sung: And it's all for me grog/ Me jolly, jolly grog/ All gone for beer and tobacco/ Well I spent all my tin/ down on south Street drinking gin. nor across the western ocean I must ramble! I'm not terribly familiar with RN regs or customs back in the days of wooden ships and iron men but in the American navy which took it's cue from the British navy, smoking was not unheard of hence the term still in use "The smoking lamp is lit" (Or alternately, not lit)This of course may be scant evidence but there are pictures extant from the American Civil War showing sailors with pipes. Most of those pictures are not taken on monitors but on sailing vessels. (For what it's worth.:~) kindest regards, Neil |
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27 Jun 03 - 04:43 PM (#973487) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Joe Offer Here's the entry from the traditional Ballad Index. I'm surprised the Index didn't come up with more versions. -Joe Offer- Here's to the Grog (All Gone for Grog)DESCRIPTION: The singer describes his "nobby, nobby" coat, breeches, etc. All are decrepit, but will not be replaced, for "It's all gone for grog, Jolly, jolly grog... I've spent all my tin with the lassies drinking gin, And across the western ocean I must wander."AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1904 (Sharp MS.) KEYWORDS: clothes drink poverty hardtimes sailor FOUND IN: Britain(England(Lond,North,South),Scotland(Aber)) Canada(Mar) Australia REFERENCES (7 citations): GreigDuncan3 580, "Ale and Tobacco" (1 fragment, 1 tune) Williams-Thames, p. 296, "Good Brown Ale and Tobacco" (1 text fragment) (also Wiltshire-WSRO Wt 426) Kennedy 274, "Here's to the Grog" (1 text, 1 tune) Wiltshire-WSRO Ox 287, "All Through the Beer" (1 text) Creighton-NovaScotia 64, "Western Ocean" (1 text, 1 tune) Paterson/Fahey/Seal, pp. 238-240, "Across the Western Ocean I Must Wander" (1 text) DT, HEREGROG* Roud #475 RECORDINGS: Liam Clancy, "All For Me Grog" (on IRLClancy01) A. L. Lloyd, "All for Me Grog" (on Lloyd5, Lloyd12) Tom Newman, "My Old Hat That I Got On" (on Voice13) ALTERNATE TITLES: The Nobby Hat My Jolly, Jolly Tin NOTES: Although some versions of this song make no reference at all to the sea, the singer's references to grog (which is technically rum mixed with water) label him as a sailor; only a seaman would speak of grog as opposed to some other sort of alcoholic beverage. Creighton thinks the song might have originated as a music hall piece. - RBW Last updated in version 2.6 File: K274 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2016 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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27 Jun 03 - 05:33 PM (#973523) Subject: ADD Version: All For Me Grog (Watersons) From: radriano I must indulge in a pet peeve of mine. There is no "X" in espresso. Okay, I feel much better now. The Watersons recorded another version of "All for me Grog": All For Me Grog The Watersons 1st verse & chorus: All for me grog, me jolly, jolly grog All for me grog and tobacco For I spent all me store with the lassies on the shore And it's all for me grog and tobacco Chorus When I come home then me sweetheart I shall see All for me grog and tobacco And me sweetheart shall sing when she sees the wedding ring And it's all for me grog and tobacco Chorus When she's a son for to All for me grog and tobacco She will sing him to sleep while I sail the stormy seas And it's all for me grog and tobacco Chorus When he's a man, then a sailor he shall be All for me grog and tobacco With his pipe and his can like a proper sailor man And it's all for me grog and tobacco Chorus
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27 Jun 03 - 05:38 PM (#973524) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Sandy Mc Lean That rum that they cut with warter was, I believe, 151 overproof. When diluted 50% it is about the strenth of most commercial brands straight. Most rum is distilled to this strenth and then cut with water before bottling. |
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27 Jun 03 - 06:10 PM (#973542) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Malcolm Douglas Roud index no. 475. Found most commonly in tradition in England, also occasionally in Canada and Australia. Roud lists one example found in Scotland, but none from Ireland; where its career as an "Irish Drinking Song" probably began with the record made by the Clancys. The set recorded by the Watersons quoted by Radriano (with the final words of several lines omitted) was learned from Frank Kidson's collection; probably the set referred to in Barbara's post earlier. Some versions list in order the various items of clothing that have been disposed of in the quest for more alcohol, and these would sometimes be accompanied by the singer's removing the item in question. "Noggin" may be a corruption of "nobby" (the song is sometimes found as The Nobby Hat), but no promises. |
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27 Jun 03 - 08:22 PM (#973625) Subject: DTADD: Western Ocean^^ From: Joe Offer Actually, Richard, the "X" in espresso is optional - but we Californians prefer not to use it. Do the Watersons leave out the last word of the first line of most stanzas, or is that a San Francisco omission, like the missing "X"? Hmmmm??? But back to the topic at hand - Helen Creighton has quite a different version of the song in Songs and Ballads from Nova Scotia. Here 'tis: WESTERN OCEAN 1. Oh, I only got one cap, and the crown of it's all gone And the peak is all tore to a slunder, And if I don't get no more, I'll put this cap in store And across the western ocean I shall wander.
Then hurrah for your grog, Your jolly, jolly grog, Hurrah for the rum and tobacco, For I've spent all my tin On a lassie drinking gin, And across the western ocean I shall wander. 2. Oh, I only got one shirt, and the neck of it's all gone And the back is all tore to a slunder, And if I don't get no more, I'll put that shirt in store And across the western ocean I shall wander. Cho. 3. Oh, I only got one coat and the back of it's all gone And the sleeves is all tore to a slunder, etc. Cho. 4. Oh, I only got one pair of pants, and the buttons they are gone And the legs is all tore to a slunder, etc. Cho. 5. Oh, I only got one pair of shoes, and the heels they are gone And the toes is all tore to a slunder, etc. Cho.^^ Notes from Creighton:
Click to play^^ |
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27 Jun 03 - 09:00 PM (#973637) Subject: DTCorr: Here's to the Grog^^ From: Joe Offer The version in the Digital Tradition has me puzzled. The initials "DC" mean it came from Dick Cook, probably in the batch of songs that started the Digital Tradition way back when. It says the lyrics are from Folksongs of Britain and Ireland, copyright 1984 by Oak Publications. Except for a couple of obvious mistakes in the DT, the lyrics are exactly the same as the following lyrics, which are from Peter Kennedy's Folksongs of Britain & Ireland (Schirmer Books, 1975). Did Oak do a reprint of the Kennedy book? The tune from the DT doesn't match the lyrics, so I'll post the tune from the Kennedy book. -Joe Offer- HERE'S TO THE GROG I've got a coat and a nobby, nobby coat I've got a coat a-seen a lot of rough weather For the sides are near wore out and the back is flying about And the lining's looking out for better weather
Here's to the rum and tobacco I've a-spent all my tin with the lassies drinking gin And to cross the briny ocean I must wander I've got me breeches, me nobby, nobby breeches I've got breeches a-seen a lot of rough weather For the pouch is near wore out and the seat's all flying about And me knees are looking out for better weather CHORUS I've got me shirt, me nobby, nobby shirt I've got a shirt a-seen a lot of rough weather For the collar's near wore out and the sleeves are flying about And me tail's looking out for better weather CHORUS I've got me boots, me nobby, nobby boots I've got boots a-seen a lot of rough weather For the bottom's near wore out and the heels flying about And me toes are looking out for better weather CHORUS I've got a tile, a nobby, nobby tile I've got a tile a-seen a lot of rough weather For the brim it is wore out and the crown is flying about And the lining's looking out for better weather CHORUS^^ A "tile" is a hat.. Click to play |
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27 Jun 03 - 11:57 PM (#973693) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Malcolm Douglas Yes; Oak issued the paperback edition in 1984. |
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28 Jun 03 - 03:26 AM (#973732) Subject: ADD Version: All For Me Grog (A.L. Lloyd)^^ From: Joe Offer Several versions in the Digital Tradition claim to be from the singing of A.L. Lloyd, but this one I'm sure of. It's from the A.L. Lloyd CD, English Drinking Songs. I hear "noggy-noggin'" - but I'm not completely sure of that. ALL FOR ME GROG Chorus: All for me grog, me jolly jolly grog All for me beer and tobacco For we spent all our tin with the lassies drinking gin And across the western ocean we must wander Oh, where are me boots, me noggy, noggin' boots? All gone for beer and tobacco And the heels they are wore out and the soles are knocked about And me toes are looking out for better weather (Chorus) I'm sick in the head for I haven't been to bed Since first I come ashore with me plunder I see centipedes and snakes and I'm full of pains and aches So I'd better make a push out over yonder. (Chorus) Where is me shirt, my noggy, noggin' shirt? All gone for beer and tobacco And the collar is wore out, and the front is knocked about And the tail is looking out for better weather (chorus) source: transcribed from the A.L. Lloyd CD, English Drinking Songs^^ The tune sounds like HEREGROG (click) in the Digital Tradition. It seems to be the tune most commonly associated with this song. |
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28 Jun 03 - 06:47 PM (#974020) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: ooh-aah I also learned this song from that CD by dear old A.L. Lloyd. What I want to know is - what does 'noggin' mean? |
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29 Jun 03 - 12:46 AM (#974130) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Joe Offer Hi, ooh - the Oxford English Dictionary defines "noggin" as "a small quantity of liquor, usually a quarter of a pint." I got a new CD today called Song Links: A Celebration of English Traditional Songs and Their Australian Variants. It has recordings of the song by Lou Killen (UK) and Dave de Hugard (Oz) - and it has the OED definition. -Joe Offer- |
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29 Jun 03 - 08:08 AM (#974186) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Snuffy Noggin' here could be either: a polite synonym for bloody, pissing, shitting, fucking, etc, or as noted above a corruption of 'nobby', meaning like the nobs (nobles), i.e very smart and expensive. |
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30 Jun 03 - 03:36 AM (#974480) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Teribus Smoking on RN ships during the early 1800's. There was a report from either the Captain or First Lieutenant of HMS Eurylas where in detailing the readiness of his ship for sea, he mentions, "Of the 250 men on board 120 use tobacco, of which 18 of that number are smokers, the remainder chew their quids like christians". Smoking was permitted but only in the galley area of the ship which was built of brick and screened. As they had a fire in the galley range for cooking, it was considered to be no greater risk for the smokers to indulge in that area. Officers were free to smoke their pipes in their wardroom. |
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30 Jun 03 - 06:30 PM (#974702) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: radriano Nah, Joe. Just had too much espresso to drink that day. One of the verses is complete though. The omissions were my fault - a result of trying to do things too fast. You do know they call me "Rapid Richard", don't you? Of course, sometimes that reputation doesn't work in my favor. Those missing words are: "When she's a son for to gangle on her KNEE" and "When he's a man then a sailor he shall BE" |
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02 Jul 03 - 03:18 AM (#974972) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Teribus "gangle" ??? I think the word is "dandle" which is to bounce a baby on your knee. |
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02 Jul 03 - 08:54 AM (#975101) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: McGrath of Harlow ...only a seaman would speak of grog as opposed to some other sort of alcoholic beverage... I'd question that. I've often enough heard it used to refer to any kind of spirits. It probably has a naval origin back in the 18th century, but it's extended its range since then. |
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02 Jul 03 - 10:46 AM (#975163) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: radriano Right, Teribus! Dandle is the correct word. Thanks. |
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27 Mar 10 - 11:03 AM (#2873256) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Charley Noble So was this song just used in the taverns or was it also used as a shanty/chantey/chantie/tchantie? My best guess is that it was more used for entertainment than as a work song. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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27 Mar 10 - 11:05 AM (#2873259) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: The Sandman Chris Roche could tell you. |
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27 Mar 10 - 01:56 PM (#2873378) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: mikesamwild Thanks for all this I couldn't persuade a chap last week in a session that it wasn't an Irish song originally. Like so many it was popularised by the Clanceys. I challeneged him to find the original Gaelic version so he may be on Mudcat! |
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27 Mar 10 - 02:21 PM (#2873399) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Artful Codger It was originally a harp piece "Plantxy Anacreon" by Carolan, to which the famous Irish poet Ruarigh O'Prutcoimh set these words: ALL FOR ME POITIN Where is me shilelagh, Me naoichian*, naoichian shilelagh... * meaning roughly "misplaced during a brawl" And I can give you a good price on a fragment of the Blarney Stone. |
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27 Mar 10 - 02:54 PM (#2873420) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: John MacKenzie "The word grog refers to a variety of alcoholic beverages. The word originally referred to a drink made with water or "small beer" (a weak beer) and rum, which was introduced into the Royal Navy by British Vice Admiral Edward Vernon (nicknamed "Old Grog" by the sailors) on 21 August 1740. Modern versions of the drink are often made with hot or boiling water, and sometimes include lemon juice, lime juice, cinnamon or sugar to improve the taste. Rum with water, sugar and nutmeg was known as bumboo and was more popular with pirates and merchantmen. By contrast, in Australia and New Zealand, the word has come to mean any alcoholic drink." The name "grog" probably came from the nickname of Admiral Vernon, who was known as "Old Grog" because he wore a grogram cloak. |
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28 Mar 10 - 05:00 AM (#2873761) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Young Buchan I don't know if the instigator of the thread will wish to incorporate this into his/her recording of the song in the interests of verisimilitude, but I am told that during the war it was the practice for the singer to remove the articles of clothing mentioned in each verse, dip them in a glass of beer, wring them out again, and at the end of the final verse drink the residue. |
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28 Mar 10 - 05:32 AM (#2873766) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: stallion more about grog in the RN than the song, an old navy salt long since departed, once told me of "sippers" and "gulpers", if someone was celebrating a birthday or such they would either get a sip of everyone else's grog or a gulp, he also talked of a "canvas turn out" where a collection was made by stretching a canvas and people throwing money into it, i was 19 when I heard this and the guy must have been in his seventies both of us may be suffering memory loss! I think the "canvas turnout" was used when he was going ashore on his 21st birthday. anyway I thought this was interesting unrecorded customs, can anyone here expand on the snippets......thread creep I know....but... |
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28 Mar 10 - 06:05 AM (#2873778) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: John MacKenzie Interesting history, including definitions of sippers and gulpers here |
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28 Mar 10 - 01:03 PM (#2873974) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Charley Noble I've always been curious how the term "grog" surfaced in the old canal boat song "Shove Around the Grog" as collected by Frank Warner, and there are references to "old Ireland" in that song as well. But so far no one has come up with a specific reference to "All for Me grog/Across the Western Ocean" being used as a capstan shanty or a forebitter. I don't find it collected in Hugill, Doerflingler, Colcord, C. Fox Smith, Huntington, Bullen, Whall, Pease, or even Shay. We are left with Helen Creighton and A. L. Lloyd, as recorded on English Drinking Songs, as the earliest collectors. Charley Noble |
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28 Mar 10 - 04:08 PM (#2874091) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Artful Codger According to a Google Books search, "All for My Grog and Tobacco" turns up in English peasant songs with their traditional airs (1929), where it is either labelled a "sea chantey" or comprises the chapter heading for such. That would be earlier than either Lloyd or Creighton. It was also published in English dance and song, Volumes 28-29 (1966; EFDSS), p. 135 where there may be more historical information. Roy Palmer's A checklist of manuscript songs and tunes collected from oral tradition... has a citation to a version collected from T.C. Smith "as sung in Scar-" (remainder of citation not viewable). It may also occur in collections under the title "Across the Western Ocean" (not to be confused with the chantey more widely known by this title, containing the repeating line "Amelia, where are you bound?" or similar). |
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28 Mar 10 - 04:43 PM (#2874122) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Charley Noble Artful Codger- Thanks for the additional references. "Across the Western Ocean" (not to be confused with the chantey more widely known by this title, containing the repeating line "Amelia, where are you bound?" The confusion of titles certainly does make searches more frustrating. I've always assumed that the sea version predated the Australian land version "Across the Western Plains" but maybe not. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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28 Mar 10 - 04:54 PM (#2874130) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Charley Noble Evidently the earlier collection date for the sailor version of the song is by Cecil Sharp in in MS dated 1904. Charley Noble |
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29 Mar 10 - 06:23 AM (#2874510) Subject: RE: All for me grog From: Snuffy Several versions collected by Carpenter in 1928/29 in England, Scotland, Wales and California. All the British ones apparently titled Haul For The Grog |
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20 Feb 17 - 10:27 AM (#3840156) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: GUEST "Dandle" does indeed occur in some versions - Now I've a bairn for to dandle on me knee". It means to do a little dance. Dictionaries say origin unknown but I submit that the German word tanzen means to dance and taenzeln is a diminutive form of the verb meaning to do a little dance. |
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21 Sep 23 - 02:25 PM (#4182156) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter I heard Twilight's stanza about the beat-up bed ca1983. Capt. David A. McLeod, "Cape Breton Captain," referring to the 1870s: "I heard the boys singing... "It's all for the grog, boys, the bully, bully grog We work for our rum and tobacco For I have spent all my tin With the girls a-drinking gin And across the briny ocean I must wander." A local parody called "All for the Stripes and the Diamonds" was sung at the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis in 1877. |
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21 Sep 23 - 02:25 PM (#4186972) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter I heard Twilight's stanza about the beat-up bed ca1983. Capt. David A. McLeod, "Cape Breton Captain," referring to the 1870s: "I heard the boys singing... "It's all for the grog, boys, the bully, bully grog We work for our rum and tobacco For I have spent all my tin With the girls a-drinking gin And across the briny ocean I must wander." A local parody called "All for the Stripes and the Diamonds" was sung at the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis in 1877. |
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22 Sep 23 - 02:32 AM (#4182190) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: GerryM Way upthread, Sandy Paton wrote, "I collected a version in Connecticut, which I finally got on tape after the singer had moved to New Hampshire. It was learned from the grandfather of the singer, a man who lived in South Carolina. It's slower, more pensive, and says: "I spent all I had in cash on the girls to cut a dash, Now I'm left in this wide world to wander. "Bruce or Barry may correct me, but this is the only version I know of that has been collected in the U.S. I'd be happy to post the text, if anyone is interested, but I can't do the music thing." That version never got posted here, so far as I can tell. It can be found in the liner notes for the Patons' LP, New Harmony, which is available on the Smithsonian Folkways website. It goes like this: I had but one old hat; The hat it had no crown, All wore out, tore out, and asunder. If I cannot buy another, I will keep this hat I've got; I will keep this old hat to remember. Chorus: It's all gone for grog, Jolly, jolly grog, All gone for whiskey and tobacco. Oh, I spent all I had in cash On those girls, to cut a dash; Now I'm left in this wide world to wander. I had but one old coat; The coat it had no back, [Remaining four lines of each stanza as for the first, only changing hat to coat to shirt to pair/pants to pair/boots] [Chorus after each stanza] I had but one old shirt; The shirt it had no sleeves, I had one pair of pants; The pants they had no knees, I had one pair of boots; The boots they had no soles, [Chorus with last three lines repeated.] |
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22 Sep 23 - 02:32 AM (#4186994) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: GerryM Way upthread, Sandy Paton wrote, "I collected a version in Connecticut, which I finally got on tape after the singer had moved to New Hampshire. It was learned from the grandfather of the singer, a man who lived in South Carolina. It's slower, more pensive, and says: "I spent all I had in cash on the girls to cut a dash, Now I'm left in this wide world to wander. "Bruce or Barry may correct me, but this is the only version I know of that has been collected in the U.S. I'd be happy to post the text, if anyone is interested, but I can't do the music thing." That version never got posted here, so far as I can tell. It can be found in the liner notes for the Patons' LP, New Harmony, which is available on the Smithsonian Folkways website. It goes like this: I had but one old hat; The hat it had no crown, All wore out, tore out, and asunder. If I cannot buy another, I will keep this hat I've got; I will keep this old hat to remember. Chorus: It's all gone for grog, Jolly, jolly grog, All gone for whiskey and tobacco. Oh, I spent all I had in cash On those girls, to cut a dash; Now I'm left in this wide world to wander. I had but one old coat; The coat it had no back, [Remaining four lines of each stanza as for the first, only changing hat to coat to shirt to pair/pants to pair/boots] [Chorus after each stanza] I had but one old shirt; The shirt it had no sleeves, I had one pair of pants; The pants they had no knees, I had one pair of boots; The boots they had no soles, [Chorus with last three lines repeated.] |
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22 Sep 23 - 03:02 AM (#4186995) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: GerryM Way upthread, a Maine reworking of an Australian parody was posted: "Subject: Lyr Add: CONCRETE AND GLASS parody-All for Me Grog From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C - PM Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:35 AM "In the interests of folk process, I'm adding this anti-urban renewal parody of this fine traditional song, which itself is a reworking of an earlier parody from the Sidney inner city neighborhood of Wooloomooloo, reworked to fit Portland, Maine's waterfront." Here's the original parody, as published in Warren Fahey's book, The Balls of Bob Menzies. Oh, my name it is Fred, in Sydney born and bred, And the inner-city used to be my home, boys But it's caused my heart to grieve, for I've had to take my leave, Now across the western suburbs I must roam, boys! Chorus: Under concrete and glass, Sydney's disappearing fast; It's all gone for profit and for plunder; Though we really want to stay, they keep driving us away, Now across the western suburbs we must wander. Where is my house, my little terracehouse? It's all gone for profit and for plunder; For the wreckers of the town just came up and knocked it down; Now across the western suburbs I must wander. Before I even knew it, we were shifted to Mount Druitt, And the planners never gave me any say, boys. Now it really makes me weep, I am just at home to sleep, For it takes me hours to get to work each day, boys. What's happened to the pub, our little local pub Where we used to have a drink when we were dry, boys. Now we can't get in the door for there's carpet on the floor And you won't be served a beer without a tie, boys. Now I'm living in a box in the west suburban blocks And the place is nearly driving me to tears, boys. Poorly planned and badly built and it's mortgaged to the hilt But they say it will be mine in forty years, boys. Now before the city's wrecked these developers must be checked; For it's plain to see they do not give a bugger, And we soon will see the day if these bandits have their way We will all be driven out past Wagga Wagga. [Wagga Wagga is a small town five hours drive West of Sydney. Fahey writes, "Written by Denis Kevans and Seamus Gill...published in Australian Tradition magazine in 1973." |
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22 Sep 23 - 03:02 AM (#4182193) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: GerryM Way upthread, a Maine reworking of an Australian parody was posted: "Subject: Lyr Add: CONCRETE AND GLASS parody-All for Me Grog From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C - PM Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:35 AM "In the interests of folk process, I'm adding this anti-urban renewal parody of this fine traditional song, which itself is a reworking of an earlier parody from the Sidney inner city neighborhood of Wooloomooloo, reworked to fit Portland, Maine's waterfront." Here's the original parody, as published in Warren Fahey's book, The Balls of Bob Menzies. Oh, my name it is Fred, in Sydney born and bred, And the inner-city used to be my home, boys But it's caused my heart to grieve, for I've had to take my leave, Now across the western suburbs I must roam, boys! Chorus: Under concrete and glass, Sydney's disappearing fast; It's all gone for profit and for plunder; Though we really want to stay, they keep driving us away, Now across the western suburbs we must wander. Where is my house, my little terracehouse? It's all gone for profit and for plunder; For the wreckers of the town just came up and knocked it down; Now across the western suburbs I must wander. Before I even knew it, we were shifted to Mount Druitt, And the planners never gave me any say, boys. Now it really makes me weep, I am just at home to sleep, For it takes me hours to get to work each day, boys. What's happened to the pub, our little local pub Where we used to have a drink when we were dry, boys. Now we can't get in the door for there's carpet on the floor And you won't be served a beer without a tie, boys. Now I'm living in a box in the west suburban blocks And the place is nearly driving me to tears, boys. Poorly planned and badly built and it's mortgaged to the hilt But they say it will be mine in forty years, boys. Now before the city's wrecked these developers must be checked; For it's plain to see they do not give a bugger, And we soon will see the day if these bandits have their way We will all be driven out past Wagga Wagga. [Wagga Wagga is a small town five hours drive West of Sydney. Fahey writes, "Written by Denis Kevans and Seamus Gill...published in Australian Tradition magazine in 1973." |
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22 Sep 23 - 12:30 PM (#4182202) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter Thanks for the U.S. text, GerryM. Here are the first stanza and the chorus of the cadet song, from "Fag-Ends from the Naval Academy" (1878): Come listen to my song, I'll not detain you long, It's all about a cruise of yore, sir. How we left our native shore, Which some twice had done before, And together over ocean did wander. Cho.:- Then it's all for the stripes, The nobby, nobby stripes, It's all for the stripes and the diamonds, That we leave our native shore To roam again once more, And across the western ocean to wander. The hoped-for "stripes and diamonds" were the sleeve insignia of a "first-class midshipman," the highest cadet rank. And the phrase "the western ocean" implies that the parodied original was from a British source. |
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22 Sep 23 - 12:30 PM (#4186973) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter Thanks for the U.S. text, GerryM. Here are the first stanza and the chorus of the cadet song, from "Fag-Ends from the Naval Academy" (1878): Come listen to my song, I'll not detain you long, It's all about a cruise of yore, sir. How we left our native shore, Which some twice had done before, And together over ocean did wander. Cho.:- Then it's all for the stripes, The nobby, nobby stripes, It's all for the stripes and the diamonds, That we leave our native shore To roam again once more, And across the western ocean to wander. The hoped-for "stripes and diamonds" were the sleeve insignia of a "first-class midshipman," the highest cadet rank. And the phrase "the western ocean" implies that the parodied original was from a British source. |
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22 Sep 23 - 01:46 PM (#4186985) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham I see no mention of the early 18th century version given in Ramsay's The Tea-Table Miscellany and reprinted with tune in The Scots Musical Museum, by Johnson & Burns. Printed on Glasgow broadsides in 1800. 'If E'er I do well, 'tis a wonder' Here's the first stanza of 7. It's quite bawdy. When I was a young lad my fortune was bad, If e'er I do well 'tis a wonder. I spent all my means on whores, bawds and queans; Then I got a commission to plunder. Fall all de rall, &co (No chorus given with the Johnson version.) (Robertson of Glasgow gives the chorus as Fal lal de ral, etc.) |
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22 Sep 23 - 01:46 PM (#4182205) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham I see no mention of the early 18th century version given in Ramsay's The Tea-Table Miscellany and reprinted with tune in The Scots Musical Museum, by Johnson & Burns. Printed on Glasgow broadsides in 1800. 'If E'er I do well, 'tis a wonder' Here's the first stanza of 7. It's quite bawdy. When I was a young lad my fortune was bad, If e'er I do well 'tis a wonder. I spent all my means on whores, bawds and queans; Then I got a commission to plunder. Fall all de rall, &co (No chorus given with the Johnson version.) (Robertson of Glasgow gives the chorus as Fal lal de ral, etc.) |
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22 Sep 23 - 02:57 PM (#4182207) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter Thanks, Steve. The song appears a year earlier than Ramsey in "The Charmer: A Choice Collection of Songs, Scots and English," Second ed. (Edinburgh: J. Yair, 1752). There the folderols seems to occupy only the entire second half of the final stanza - which leads me to think the untitled piece came from the stage, where a costumed singer could dance around while lilting them. Scott liked the song so much he put two laundered stanzas into "Woodstock" (1826). |
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22 Sep 23 - 02:57 PM (#4186974) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter Thanks, Steve. The song appears a year earlier than Ramsey in "The Charmer: A Choice Collection of Songs, Scots and English," Second ed. (Edinburgh: J. Yair, 1752). There the folderols seems to occupy only the entire second half of the final stanza - which leads me to think the untitled piece came from the stage, where a costumed singer could dance around while lilting them. Scott liked the song so much he put two laundered stanzas into "Woodstock" (1826). |
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23 Sep 23 - 02:33 PM (#4186986) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham My copy of Ramsey is actually the 12th edition, 1763, but it probably was present in earlier editions, but not the very earliest as it's in Vol 4. Completely agree, and very likely the London stage, as with much of what Ramsey published. I'm interested in the fol de rol chorus, as Alfred Williams collected a version c1910 quite close to the printed version and it has the fol de rols. How does the stanza with the fol de rols run? Is The Charmer online? The name 'Yair' sounds familiar. |
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23 Sep 23 - 02:33 PM (#4182270) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham My copy of Ramsey is actually the 12th edition, 1763, but it probably was present in earlier editions, but not the very earliest as it's in Vol 4. Completely agree, and very likely the London stage, as with much of what Ramsey published. I'm interested in the fol de rol chorus, as Alfred Williams collected a version c1910 quite close to the printed version and it has the fol de rols. How does the stanza with the fol de rols run? Is The Charmer online? The name 'Yair' sounds familiar. |
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23 Sep 23 - 06:45 PM (#4182295) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter The final stanza: Had ye but seen the sad plight I was in, Ye'd not seen such a poet amongst twenty. I've nothing that's full, but my shirt and my scull, For my pockets and belly are empty. Fall all de rall, &c. The 11th ed. of Tea-Table (1750) had the song too, with "Fall all de rall, &c." after each stanza. That's the earliest ed. I have access to, via ECCO - like The Charmer. |
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23 Sep 23 - 06:45 PM (#4186975) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter The final stanza: Had ye but seen the sad plight I was in, Ye'd not seen such a poet amongst twenty. I've nothing that's full, but my shirt and my scull, For my pockets and belly are empty. Fall all de rall, &c. The 11th ed. of Tea-Table (1750) had the song too, with "Fall all de rall, &c." after each stanza. That's the earliest ed. I have access to, via ECCO - like The Charmer. |
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23 Sep 23 - 07:07 PM (#4182297) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: GUEST,Keith Price Steve 'If E'er I do well,'tis a wonder' Is this a stock verse ? it's more or less the first verse of 'Limbo' |
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23 Sep 23 - 07:07 PM (#4186970) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: GUEST,Keith Price Steve 'If E'er I do well,'tis a wonder' Is this a stock verse ? it's more or less the first verse of 'Limbo' |
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24 Sep 23 - 10:03 AM (#4182318) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham Thanks, Keith. I'll check out Limbo and get back to you. Regarding the song here I'd hazard a guess about 1725. This based on it's not in D'Urfey and it would have been prime material for him. Jon, in that case what did you mean by ' the folderols seems to occupy only the entire second half of the final stanza'? Surely they are the chorus. I'll post the Williams version shortly which has more of the chorus. |
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24 Sep 23 - 10:03 AM (#4186987) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham Thanks, Keith. I'll check out Limbo and get back to you. Regarding the song here I'd hazard a guess about 1725. This based on it's not in D'Urfey and it would have been prime material for him. Jon, in that case what did you mean by ' the folderols seems to occupy only the entire second half of the final stanza'? Surely they are the chorus. I'll post the Williams version shortly which has more of the chorus. |
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24 Sep 23 - 10:29 AM (#4182321) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Georgiansilver Wikipedia tells us.... |
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24 Sep 23 - 10:29 AM (#4186984) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Georgiansilver Wikipedia tells us.... |
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24 Sep 23 - 01:51 PM (#4182330) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter Steve, I see that the first edition of "The Charmer" (1749) also contains the song - in four-line stanzas with interstanzaic folderols. The second edition, however, prints it in eight-line stanzas, which makes it look like the folderols are merely intended to fill out the final. There is a "Twelfth [sic] Edition" of Ramsey published in Dublin "For George Risk" in *1740*, "With large Additions not printed in any former Impression." This song we're discussing is nonetheless lacking, as it is from editions 1 through 5, the only others I have found digitized and accessible. So for now it looks as though Ramsey took it from the first ed. of "The Charmer." |
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24 Sep 23 - 01:51 PM (#4186976) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter Steve, I see that the first edition of "The Charmer" (1749) also contains the song - in four-line stanzas with interstanzaic folderols. The second edition, however, prints it in eight-line stanzas, which makes it look like the folderols are merely intended to fill out the final. There is a "Twelfth [sic] Edition" of Ramsey published in Dublin "For George Risk" in *1740*, "With large Additions not printed in any former Impression." This song we're discussing is nonetheless lacking, as it is from editions 1 through 5, the only others I have found digitized and accessible. So for now it looks as though Ramsey took it from the first ed. of "The Charmer." |
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26 Sep 23 - 08:32 AM (#4186988) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham Jon I've now looked at all of the oral versions I have access to and can make a few observations. There are 2 versions that form intermediate stages between the original in Charmer and the later 'All for me grog' versions. All but one of the oral versions commence with the catalogue of clothing items. The closest to the original is the one collected by Alfred Williams from Mrs E. Clark of Minety, Wiltshire, c1910. What is odd is that he didn't give her full version of the chorus in FSUT (p296). I am a roving blade, My fortune it is made, If ever I get rich it is a wonder; I've sported all my means Among the little queans, And now I've got permission for to plunder. Fol the rol the riddle rol, The riddle rol the rido, Ale, ale, good brown ale, Good brown ale and tobacco. Now this coat that I've got on, It's ragged and it's torn, And my boots they've been out in all weathers, And cursed are the soles, For they are full of holes, And so are the upper leathers. All of this is quite close to the original looking particularly at stanzas 1, 3 and 6. Now we have to bewail the fact that Williams did not note down any tunes. However the next version collected much more recently does have a tune; apart from which all of the versions I have looked at seem to be versions of the same tune and I see no reason to suppose that they are not of the original tune. Have you compared the tune in Oswald? I don't sight read music but I can usually tell if it's a version of a known tune. The second version is close to other modern versions but the chorus is of interest. It is called 'All through the Ale' and was collected by an old mate of mine, Roy Harris of Notts Alliance, sadly no longer with us, but he was a regular on Mudcat (Burl). He got it from a Mrs Smedley of Matlock, Derbyshire, in 1965. It has a similar boots stanza to Mrs Clark's version above. (upper leathers). Chorus runs: All through the ale, The confounded ale, All through the ale and tobacco, With a whack fol the day, Fol the diddle fol the day, All through the ale and tobacco. As you can see the 2 parts of the chorus have been exchanged in order in this version and this must surely be how the common later chorus has evolved, which very much leads me to believe the probability that the original chorus was something like Mrs Clark's. The 'I spent all my tin on the lasses drinking gin' must surely be a later addition. |
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26 Sep 23 - 08:32 AM (#4182469) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham Jon I've now looked at all of the oral versions I have access to and can make a few observations. There are 2 versions that form intermediate stages between the original in Charmer and the later 'All for me grog' versions. All but one of the oral versions commence with the catalogue of clothing items. The closest to the original is the one collected by Alfred Williams from Mrs E. Clark of Minety, Wiltshire, c1910. What is odd is that he didn't give her full version of the chorus in FSUT (p296). I am a roving blade, My fortune it is made, If ever I get rich it is a wonder; I've sported all my means Among the little queans, And now I've got permission for to plunder. Fol the rol the riddle rol, The riddle rol the rido, Ale, ale, good brown ale, Good brown ale and tobacco. Now this coat that I've got on, It's ragged and it's torn, And my boots they've been out in all weathers, And cursed are the soles, For they are full of holes, And so are the upper leathers. All of this is quite close to the original looking particularly at stanzas 1, 3 and 6. Now we have to bewail the fact that Williams did not note down any tunes. However the next version collected much more recently does have a tune; apart from which all of the versions I have looked at seem to be versions of the same tune and I see no reason to suppose that they are not of the original tune. Have you compared the tune in Oswald? I don't sight read music but I can usually tell if it's a version of a known tune. The second version is close to other modern versions but the chorus is of interest. It is called 'All through the Ale' and was collected by an old mate of mine, Roy Harris of Notts Alliance, sadly no longer with us, but he was a regular on Mudcat (Burl). He got it from a Mrs Smedley of Matlock, Derbyshire, in 1965. It has a similar boots stanza to Mrs Clark's version above. (upper leathers). Chorus runs: All through the ale, The confounded ale, All through the ale and tobacco, With a whack fol the day, Fol the diddle fol the day, All through the ale and tobacco. As you can see the 2 parts of the chorus have been exchanged in order in this version and this must surely be how the common later chorus has evolved, which very much leads me to believe the probability that the original chorus was something like Mrs Clark's. The 'I spent all my tin on the lasses drinking gin' must surely be a later addition. |
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27 Sep 23 - 03:48 PM (#4182579) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter It's very interesting to see how just part of the song, with later elaborations, survived in tradition for more than two hundred years. A writer in the Los Angeles Times (Nov. 8, 1925), who learned songs and chanteys from blue-water sailors "in my boyhood," offered this: "I have an old shoe with never a bit of sole, It serves me alike in all weather; It hasn't got a heel, and it hasn't got a toe, And it hasn't got a bit of upper leather. And it's all for my grog, my jolly, jolly grog, It's all for my grog and tobacco. "This song goes through the entire kit, from the hat with no brim or crown, to the socks with no cotton or wool or room for a hole, but it dwells lingeringly all through the recitation on the 'jolly, jolly grog.'" Oxford has "tin" (money) from 1836. It used to be common in the U.S. as well (as in "The Camptown Races"), but I'd say it was out of frequent usage by 1900. |
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27 Sep 23 - 03:48 PM (#4186977) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter It's very interesting to see how just part of the song, with later elaborations, survived in tradition for more than two hundred years. A writer in the Los Angeles Times (Nov. 8, 1925), who learned songs and chanteys from blue-water sailors "in my boyhood," offered this: "I have an old shoe with never a bit of sole, It serves me alike in all weather; It hasn't got a heel, and it hasn't got a toe, And it hasn't got a bit of upper leather. And it's all for my grog, my jolly, jolly grog, It's all for my grog and tobacco. "This song goes through the entire kit, from the hat with no brim or crown, to the socks with no cotton or wool or room for a hole, but it dwells lingeringly all through the recitation on the 'jolly, jolly grog.'" Oxford has "tin" (money) from 1836. It used to be common in the U.S. as well (as in "The Camptown Races"), but I'd say it was out of frequent usage by 1900. |
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27 Sep 23 - 05:09 PM (#4186989) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham Although we don't know precisely when alterations were made it is possible to see a progression of some of the elements of the song's evolution. Seamen seem to have had a hand in some of the later developments. See also the Carpenter fragments at VWML. 'All' has turned quite naturally into 'Haul' unless this a Carpenter mondegreen. BTW the Kidson version is unique to him or more likely 'her'. I think his niece Ethel probably wrote it, not liking the simple catalogue version. I haven't seen Kidson's manuscript as collected in Scarborough. As it is titled 'All for me grog' I would imagine it is little different from the common later versions. |
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27 Sep 23 - 05:09 PM (#4182584) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham Although we don't know precisely when alterations were made it is possible to see a progression of some of the elements of the song's evolution. Seamen seem to have had a hand in some of the later developments. See also the Carpenter fragments at VWML. 'All' has turned quite naturally into 'Haul' unless this a Carpenter mondegreen. BTW the Kidson version is unique to him or more likely 'her'. I think his niece Ethel probably wrote it, not liking the simple catalogue version. I haven't seen Kidson's manuscript as collected in Scarborough. As it is titled 'All for me grog' I would imagine it is little different from the common later versions. |
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28 Sep 23 - 09:56 PM (#4182646) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: BenTraverse What led Creighton to think this song was written for music hall performers? Are there any candidates for the "genuine sea song" the chorus supposedly may have come from? Is there a reason Sharp's manuscript (titled "Here's to My Tin") from 1904 is listed as the earliest date on the Ballad Index? "When I was a young lad" from The Charmer feels close enough that it should at least get a mention. The only real difference is the lack of chorus. It also reads like it was meant for a different melody to me. |
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28 Sep 23 - 09:56 PM (#4186996) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: BenTraverse What led Creighton to think this song was written for music hall performers? Are there any candidates for the "genuine sea song" the chorus supposedly may have come from? Is there a reason Sharp's manuscript (titled "Here's to My Tin") from 1904 is listed as the earliest date on the Ballad Index? "When I was a young lad" from The Charmer feels close enough that it should at least get a mention. The only real difference is the lack of chorus. It also reads like it was meant for a different melody to me. |
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28 Sep 23 - 10:43 PM (#4186997) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: BenTraverse Looks like the 10th edition of Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany (volume 1) includes "If e'er I do well, 'tis a wonder", which pushes the date back to 1740, 9 years before The Charmer! Here it is on archive.org This publication by S. Powell from 1734, while also being listed as the 10th edition, does not include "If e'er I do well". It was also divided up into three volumes as opposed to the above publishing's four. I also couldn't find this book's volume number. It's entirely possible that the song is in a different volume published sometime between 1734-40, but there's nothing on archive.org. |
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28 Sep 23 - 10:43 PM (#4182648) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: BenTraverse Looks like the 10th edition of Ramsay's Tea-Table Miscellany (volume 1) includes "If e'er I do well, 'tis a wonder", which pushes the date back to 1740, 9 years before The Charmer! Here it is on archive.org This publication by S. Powell from 1734, while also being listed as the 10th edition, does not include "If e'er I do well". It was also divided up into three volumes as opposed to the above publishing's four. I also couldn't find this book's volume number. It's entirely possible that the song is in a different volume published sometime between 1734-40, but there's nothing on archive.org. |
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29 Sep 23 - 03:31 AM (#4182651) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: GUEST,RJM I think his niece Ethel probably wrote it, not liking the simple catalogue version. I haven't seen Kidson's manuscript as collected in Scarborough. Possible, but not proven. |
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29 Sep 23 - 03:31 AM (#4186971) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: GUEST,RJM I think his niece Ethel probably wrote it, not liking the simple catalogue version. I haven't seen Kidson's manuscript as collected in Scarborough. Possible, but not proven. |
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29 Sep 23 - 09:56 AM (#4182668) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham Music Hall version, I very much doubt, but I can understand HC thinking that without knowledge of the earlier version. It is possible to follow the evolution in oral tradition, albeit somewhat sketchy. Could we have a copy here please of the Charmer version? It seems to be different to the Ramsay version at least in the first line. |
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29 Sep 23 - 09:56 AM (#4186990) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham Music Hall version, I very much doubt, but I can understand HC thinking that without knowledge of the earlier version. It is possible to follow the evolution in oral tradition, albeit somewhat sketchy. Could we have a copy here please of the Charmer version? It seems to be different to the Ramsay version at least in the first line. |
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29 Sep 23 - 11:49 AM (#4186978) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter Ben, good catch! So Ramsey now looks like the original. Steve, the sole difference, beyond two or three points of punctuation and "Charmer's" spelling of "lain" for Ramsey's "ly'n," is that Ramsey (1740 and '50) places "Fall all de rall, &c." after each stanza while "Charmer" (1749) has it only once, at the end. |
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29 Sep 23 - 11:49 AM (#4182681) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter Ben, good catch! So Ramsey now looks like the original. Steve, the sole difference, beyond two or three points of punctuation and "Charmer's" spelling of "lain" for Ramsey's "ly'n," is that Ramsey (1740 and '50) places "Fall all de rall, &c." after each stanza while "Charmer" (1749) has it only once, at the end. |
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29 Sep 23 - 03:30 PM (#4182693) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham Thanks, Jon. |
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29 Sep 23 - 03:30 PM (#4186991) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham Thanks, Jon. |
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30 Sep 23 - 11:49 AM (#4186979) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter A sighting in Australian waters: "The Age" (Sydney) (Apr. 23, 1889). Aboard HMVS Cerberus: "One brawny seaman especially won applause with a rolling shanty, of which only the refrain could be distinguished: It's all through the grog, the jolly, jolly grog, It's all through the grog and the 'baccy. I've spent all my tin with the girls drinking gin, And it's all through the grog and the 'baccy. "And every man of the ship's company took up the chorus, without a thought of the unconscious satire of the words." |
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30 Sep 23 - 11:49 AM (#4182760) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter A sighting in Australian waters: "The Age" (Sydney) (Apr. 23, 1889). Aboard HMVS Cerberus: "One brawny seaman especially won applause with a rolling shanty, of which only the refrain could be distinguished: It's all through the grog, the jolly, jolly grog, It's all through the grog and the 'baccy. I've spent all my tin with the girls drinking gin, And it's all through the grog and the 'baccy. "And every man of the ship's company took up the chorus, without a thought of the unconscious satire of the words." |
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30 Sep 23 - 12:24 PM (#4182762) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter Boston Globe (Apr. 10, 1921): "She sang an old chantey that whalers know: 'Rah for the grog-- The jolly, jolly grog. 'Rah for the grog and tobacco. We've spent all our tin with the ladies drinking gin, And across the briny ocean we must wan-der." |
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30 Sep 23 - 12:24 PM (#4186980) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter Boston Globe (Apr. 10, 1921): "She sang an old chantey that whalers know: 'Rah for the grog-- The jolly, jolly grog. 'Rah for the grog and tobacco. We've spent all our tin with the ladies drinking gin, And across the briny ocean we must wan-der." |
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30 Sep 23 - 01:04 PM (#4186981) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter "Intelligencer Journal/Lancaster new Era" (Lancaster, Pa.) (Aug. 2, 2014): "As a civil War re-enactor, I recall many an evening sitting around the campfire, singing tunes such as 'Jolly Grog' while we passed around the chock bucket, a pail containing a gin-based liquid, which we tried to drain before it ate through the metal. "It's all for me grog, me jolly, jolly grog, all gone for beer and tobacco. Spent all me tin down on South Street drinking gin, now across the western ocean we must wander. "They don't write lyrics like that anymore. They can't. They're all in rehab." South Street, in Manhattan, is the site of the very popular South Street Seaport Museum, and the home in the 1970s of the chantey group "X Seamens [sic] Institute," which recorded the song in 1973. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaCiPGCaomI Their version includes the bed springs. YouTube offers various other renditions, some even more ribald. |
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30 Sep 23 - 01:04 PM (#4182763) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter "Intelligencer Journal/Lancaster new Era" (Lancaster, Pa.) (Aug. 2, 2014): "As a civil War re-enactor, I recall many an evening sitting around the campfire, singing tunes such as 'Jolly Grog' while we passed around the chock bucket, a pail containing a gin-based liquid, which we tried to drain before it ate through the metal. "It's all for me grog, me jolly, jolly grog, all gone for beer and tobacco. Spent all me tin down on South Street drinking gin, now across the western ocean we must wander. "They don't write lyrics like that anymore. They can't. They're all in rehab." South Street, in Manhattan, is the site of the very popular South Street Seaport Museum, and the home in the 1970s of the chantey group "X Seamens [sic] Institute," which recorded the song in 1973. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaCiPGCaomI Their version includes the bed springs. YouTube offers various other renditions, some even more ribald. |
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07 Oct 23 - 06:22 PM (#4183208) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham Jon, having looked at the 1749 vol 2 at NLS and the 1765 volume, they have nothing in common, the 1749 containing more earthy pieces, though both printed by Mair. As far as I can see the 1749 doesn't have 'If e'er I do well' unless it's in Vol 1 which I can't see online. |
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07 Oct 23 - 06:22 PM (#4186992) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham Jon, having looked at the 1749 vol 2 at NLS and the 1765 volume, they have nothing in common, the 1749 containing more earthy pieces, though both printed by Mair. As far as I can see the 1749 doesn't have 'If e'er I do well' unless it's in Vol 1 which I can't see online. |
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07 Oct 23 - 08:06 PM (#4186982) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter Steve, the song appears on pp. 111-112 of the 1749 ed. of The Charmer, "Printed for J. Yair, and sold in his shop at the Parliament-Close; and by C. Hitch, at the Red Lion in Pater-Noster-Row, London." Eighteenth-Century Collections Online adds "(Edinburgh)" in the catalogue entry, as though "London" is incorrect, perhaps for Hitch's address. |
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07 Oct 23 - 08:06 PM (#4183211) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter Steve, the song appears on pp. 111-112 of the 1749 ed. of The Charmer, "Printed for J. Yair, and sold in his shop at the Parliament-Close; and by C. Hitch, at the Red Lion in Pater-Noster-Row, London." Eighteenth-Century Collections Online adds "(Edinburgh)" in the catalogue entry, as though "London" is incorrect, perhaps for Hitch's address. |
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08 Oct 23 - 07:26 AM (#4183221) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter The book is in just one volume, with a preface signed "J.G." |
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08 Oct 23 - 07:26 AM (#4186983) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Lighter The book is in just one volume, with a preface signed "J.G." |
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08 Oct 23 - 04:33 PM (#4186993) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham Thanks, Jon. |
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08 Oct 23 - 04:33 PM (#4183245) Subject: RE: Origin: All for Me Grog From: Steve Gardham Thanks, Jon. |