|
10 Jan 03 - 11:37 PM (#864129) Subject: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Homeless A while back I was talking with someone about musical tastes which led to a discussion on blues influences which led to me suggesting a project of making a list of Led Zeppelin songs and their roots. As I see it there were some blues numbers, such as When the Levee Breaks, that Page and Plant stole directly (and I say stole since they didn't give any credit other than themselves), there were some they they borrowed heavily from or that played a definite influence, e.g. Gallow's Pole/Gallis Pole and then there were those where they ran a variation on a prior riff or lyric, such as Moby Dick from The Girl I Love, She Got Long Curly Hair. What I'd like to see is a list of Zep songs and do one-to-one correlations from each song they wrote to the blues/gospel/folk song that may have been it's influence, wherever possible citing the original author or the artist that made it most known. I've got a list started, but would like to get others' input on songs/sources to find the ones that I've overlooked or have attributed incorrectly. |
|
10 Jan 03 - 11:47 PM (#864132) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Steve Latimer Bring It On Home was Sonny Boy Williamson, I don't believe they credited him. I Believe In My Time of Dying was Blind Lemon Jefferson |
|
11 Jan 03 - 12:49 AM (#864150) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: mousethief I remember seeing a FAQ on a LZ website a long time ago that answered this very question. The other interesting LZ game is to list all the allusions to Tolkien in their songs. Alex |
|
11 Jan 03 - 12:53 AM (#864152) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: mousethief When the Levee Breaks, that Page and Plant stole directly (and I say stole since they didn't give any credit other than themselves), Well I don't know about the vinyl, but in my booklet that came with my CD of LZ4, "When the Levee Breaks" is credited to "Jimmy Page, Robert Plant, John Paul Jones, John Bonham & Memphis Minnie." "Stole" is a very strong word when you're talking about blues, a genre in which an awful lot of borrowing and moving back and forth takes place. And in this case it's simply wrong. Alex |
|
11 Jan 03 - 01:20 AM (#864160) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: mousethief Okay here you go. From http://web.stargate.net/zeppelin/faq/faql_1.html#18: Didn't Led Zeppelin copy (song title) from (blues artist)? Yes, no, and maybe. Here's a partial list of covers, credited and otherwise, and sources. Thanks to _Wearing & Tearing_, Glen Cunliffe, Christopher Williams, _Proximity_, Hugh Jones, Bill Bratton, and Colin Harper for much of the info in this section. "Train Kept A Rollin'" -- Written by Tiny Bradshaw, L. Mann, and H. Kay, first recorded by Bradshaw's Big Band in 1951. Rewritten as a rockabilly tune in 1956 and recorded by the Johnny Burnette Trio (whose guitarist, Paul Burlison, was an influence on Jeff Beck and inspired him to cover the tune with the Yardbirds). The Yardbirds recorded both the "original" tune and a rewritten version called "Stroll On" (the lyrics were modified to avoid copyright hassles) in Michaelangelo Antonioni's film _Blow Up_, which features the Beck/Page-era Yardbirds imitating the Who. The original version was often played live by Zeppelin, and is often mistakenly attributed to the Yardbirds, which is why it is included here. "White Summer" -- Davey Graham's "She Moved Through The Fair." "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" -- Anne Bredon (a/k/a Annie Briggs) (the Joan Baez version was the one this was based on). "You Shook Me" -- Willie Dixon, first recorded by Muddy Waters. "I Can't Quit You Baby" -- Willie Dixon. "Communication Breakdown" -- Eddie Cochran's "Nervous Breakdown." "How Many More Times" -- Howlin Wolf's "How Many More Years," Albert King's "The Hunter," Zeppelin's version is lyrically related to a cover called "How Many More Times" by Gary Farr and the T-Bones (liner notes by Giorgio Gomelsky, one-time producer of The Yardbirds). Zeppelin's particular arrangement grew from the live jams on "Smokestack Lightning" that the Page-led Yardbirds used to do. "Dazed And Confused" -- Jake Holmes, written and recorded as "Dazed & Confused." The Yardbirds covered it under the title "I'm Confused," with different lyrics. Page again changed the lyrics (which were originally about an acid trip) for the Zeppelin version. The version on the _Session Man_ album (on Archive) credited to the New Yardbirds is actually the Holmes original. Page: "I don't know about all that. I'd rather not get into it because I don't know all the circumstances. What's he got, the riff or whatever? Because Robert wrote some of the lyrics on that album. But he was only listening to...we extended it from the one that we were playing with the Yardbirds. I haven't heard Jake Holmes so I don't know what it's all about anyway. Usually my riffs are pretty damn original [laughs]. What can I say?" "Black Mountain Side" -- traditional, Annie Briggs, Bert Jansch The main riff is almost identical to the riff Jansch uses in his song "BlackWater Side," though he cites Annie Briggs as an earlier source. Page: "I wasn't totally original on that riff. It had been done in folk clubs a lot. Annie Briggs was the first one that I heard do that riff. I was playing it as well, and then there was Bert Jansch's version." The DADGAD tuning used here and on "White Summer," "Kashmir," "Swan Song" (see the unreleased section), and "Midnight Moonlight" was supposedly invented by Davey Graham, though whether or not Page knew this is unclear. "The Lemon Song" -- Chester Burnett (a/k/a Howlin Wolf) "Killing Floor," Robert Johnson ("squeeze my lemon" lyric). In some early concerts and on some pressings of _II_, the song was actually called "Killing Floor." ARC Music filed a suit against Zeppelin in the early 70's, which was settled out of court. Ironically, the "squeeze my lemon" lyric was lifted by Johnson as well--from Art McKay ("She Squeezed My Lemon"--1937). "Moby Dick" -- Bobby Parker (music), Ginger Baker's "Toad" (drum solo). The song was originally entitled "The Girl I Love," which was written in 1929 by Sleepy John Estes and called "The Girl I Love, She Got Long Curly Hair." There are also some drum lines lifted intact from George Suranovich's drum solo with Arthur Lee's Love's song "Doggone." "Whole Lotta Love" -- Willie Dixon's "You Need Love" (lyrics). Plant: "Page's riff was Page's riff. It was there before anything else. I just thought, 'well, what am I going to sing?' That was it, a nick. Now happily paid for. At the time, there was a lot of conversation about what to do. It was decided that it was so far away in time (it was in fact 7 years) and influence that...well, you only get caught when you're successful. That's the game." Willie Dixon sued Zeppelin (actually friends of his at the time) in 1985 when his daughter noticed the resemblance--though by this time, Zeppelin has sold the rights to their international catalog and knew _in advance_ of the suit, which was filed only _after_ the sale had been completed. "Thank You" -- There is a striking chordal similarity to Traffic's "Dear Mr. Fantasy." There is an intriguing rumor that Page is actually the guitarist on the Traffic song, though no one involved has confirmed this. "Bring It On Home" -- Written by Willie Dixon, though the Sonny Boy Williamson II version is the one which this bears a similarity to. The "Lemon Song" lawsuit also included language about this song. "Traveling Riverside Blues" -- Johnny Winter's "Leavin' Blues" (music only), plus lyrical references to Robert Johnson, St. Louis Jimmy Oden, and Sleepy John Estes. "Since I've Been Loving You" -- brief lyrical nod to Moby Grape's "Never." "Bron-Y-Aur Stomp" -- intro lifted from "The Waggoner's Tale" by Bert Jansch. "Gallows Pole" -- traditional, associated with Leadbelly. Page says that his version was based on a cover of the song by Fred Gerlach. "Hats Off To (Roy) Harper" -- traditional, Bukka White (song entitled "Shake 'Em On Down"), also covered by Joe Lee Williams and Blind Lemon Jefferson. "Black Dog" -- the vocal arrangement is very similar to Fleetwood Mac's "Oh Well." "Rock And Roll" -- drawn from Little Richard's "Good Golly Miss Molly/Keep A Knockin'" (mostly the drum line). "Stairway To Heaven" -- Possible (though unlikely) lift from "And She's Lonely" by The Chocolate Watch Band, which became the intro chords. There's really no way of knowing for sure. The solo chords are also similar to the chords of Dylan's (and Hendrix's) "All Along The Watchtower," though the chord progression is hardly uncommon and any direct influence is also unlikely. A more believable lift might be from Spirit's "Taurus," an instrumental from their _Time Circle_ album--the intro from "Stairway" is remarkably similar, and Page and Plant were certainly aware of the band. "When The Levee Breaks" -- Memphis Minnie and Kansas Joe McCoy. _Physical Graffiti_ -- The album cover is identical in concept and very similar in design to the cover of the Jose Feliciano album _Compartments_, including the pull-out card and the "hidden" photos. "Custard Pie" -- Sleepy John Estes did a song entitled "Drop Down Daddy" in 1935, which seems to be the earliest source for this material. Blind Boy Fuller recorded a song entitled "I Want Some Of Your Pie" in 1939. Sonny Terry covered it with the title "Custard Pie Blues." Big Joe Williams also covered it under the title "Drop Down Mama," and his lyrics are pretty much identical to Plant's. There is also some Bukka White material in the song. "In My Time Of Dying" -- Traditional. First recorded by Blind Willie Johnson as "Jesus Make Up My Dying Bed," which is more like the Zeppelin version than the well-known Bob Dylan cover. Plant has cited Josh White's 1933 "Jesus Make Up My Dying Bed" as the source for Zeppelin's version. A much closer version appears on the self-titled album by the Canadian band Fear Itself, whose "In My Time OF Dying" is credited to Ellen McIlwaine, the band's lead singer and slide guitarist. Besides many musical and length similarities, the Fear Itself version ends with the line, "My dying...cough." "Boogie With Stu" -- Ritchie Valens. Page: "The jam [with Ian Stewart] turned into 'Boogie With Stu,' which was obviously a variation on 'Ooh My Head' by the late Ritchie Valens, which itself was actually a variation of Little Richard's 'Ooh My Soul.' What we tried to do was give Ritchie's mother credit, because we heard she never received any royalties from any of her son's hits, and Robert did lean on that lyric a bit. So what happens? They tried to sue us for all of the song! We had to say 'bugger off.'" The Valens song bears a strong similarity to Memphis Minnie's "I Called You This Morning." "Nobody's Fault But Mine" -- Blind Willie Johnson (lyrics). Plant: "First of all, it's public domain because he's been dead so long, and secondly it wasn't his song in the first place--nobody knows where it comes from." "In The Evening" -- James Carr has a song called "In the Evening, When The Sun Goes Down." The music is not similar. "We're Gonna Groove" -- Ben E. King, James Bethea. "Darlene" -- One line from Don McLean's "American Pie." So is this theivery? Yes, no and maybe. ;-) They _did_ steal a few things outright--like "Dazed And Confused" (stolen by the Yardbirds, actually)--but anyone who understands the blues tradition knows that this sort of "borrowing" goes on all the time. Willie Dixon may have been more savvy about copyrights than his counterparts, but he was no stranger to plagiarism himself. Many of the "songs" Dixon copyrighted could be considered public domain. And in the end, most of Zeppelin's "lifts" were eventually paid for. Besides, as was the case with "Traveling Riverside Blues," the Zeppelin version often bore little (if any) resemblance to the original. Page: "...Robert was supposed to change the [lyrics], and he didn't always do that--which is what brought on most of our grief." [...] "So, anyway, if there is any plagiarism, just blame Robert! (laughs)" -------- Alex |
|
11 Jan 03 - 11:03 AM (#864404) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Homeless Dang Mousethief, how'd you find this so fast? In the past couple months I've done searches twenty-eleven different ways and followed about half a bazillion links and never came across anything even half this comprehensive. I guess my work here is done. Thanx. |
|
11 Jan 03 - 11:46 AM (#864435) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Roughyed I think Jimmy Page would have had a bit of difficulty hearing Anne Briggs do the riff to Blackwaterside because she did it unaccompanied (and brilliantly) |
|
11 Jan 03 - 12:37 PM (#864480) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bobert Reminds my of Alan Lomax asking Muddy Waters about Muddy's sources on the "Plantation Recordings" CD. Went something like this; LOMAX: Did you write that song? MUDDY: Yes, Sir, I did. I wrote it all by myself. LOMAX: What kind of tuning is that anyway? MUDDY: Span-cih LOMAX: We're you learn that tuning? MUDDY: I learnt it from Son House. LOMAX: Did you hera Son House do that song? MUDDY: Yes, sir, I did. Like Alex says, in blues there are so many borrowed lines that just keep getting recycled into other folks songs. Many have no ownership. Woke up this mornin' Lookin' round for my shoes (X2) Know by that, Lord Got them walking blues This verse was bouncing all around the blues scene in the 1920's, thought Robert Johnson is probably credited with it but Furray Lewis used it, Son House used it and probably a few others. If the river was whiskey I'd be a diving duck (X2) I'd dive down to the bottom and never come up Furray Lewis, Muddy, etc Engineer blew the whistle Fireman rung the bell...... Credited to Son House but ya hear this line thrown into a few songs by contemporary blues artist... Just a few examples. As a blues player, I have become less and less bogged down with personal credit and more appreciative of collective credit when it comes to these verses that were probably field hollers back on the plantations that were just passed from generation to generation. Bobert |
|
11 Jan 03 - 12:38 PM (#864481) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Music entusiast Crap band anyway. oh yeah and - immigrant song - little miss lover by Hedrix |
|
11 Jan 03 - 12:39 PM (#864482) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: mousethief Actually Blackwaterside comes from Bert Jansch by way of Al Stewart. Al got dragged into court about it. Alex |
|
11 Mar 04 - 01:21 AM (#1133603) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,happydog Jimmy Page did not play on Traffic's "Mr. Fantasy." That was definitely Dave Mason. This is one of those rumors like "Jimmy Page played the riff for 'All Day & All of the Night!'" Nope. Jimmy Page did a lot of session work but by the time "Dear Mr. Fantasy" came out, Jimmy Page had quit doing sessions and was deeply involved with the rapidly dissolving Yardbirds. He wouldn't have had the time. Traffic for their part had been rehearsing by themselves in a house in the English countryside, and would not at all have been interested in letting any session musicians sit in on their carefully created work. |
|
11 Mar 04 - 03:35 AM (#1133639) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Cllr at work At a Page and Plant gig watching Nigel Eaton (from Blowzabella) doing an eight minute hurdy gurdy solo at Wembley a few years ago was amazing. Led Zepp widely admit the influences of Folk and have branched back into it in the last few years. |
|
11 Mar 04 - 09:41 AM (#1133836) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Stour Delta Fascinating stuff "mousethief" thank you for sharing your vast knowledge. When i used to listen to Led Zep back in the 70's i had no idea of their sources of inspiration, it is only since listening to and getting involved in "country blues" that one recognises the various themes and lines that can be found common to a whole host of pre & post war blues artists. Among those already mentioned my favourite classic verses are: I laid me down (last night) to take my rest x2 but you know my mind got to wonderin' like the wild geese in the west. Stole my best friends gal away from him x2 that fool got lucky 'n stolled her back again. Wonderful! |
|
11 Mar 04 - 12:21 PM (#1133964) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: TheBigPinkLad GUEST,Music entusiast I'll assume that by 'Crap band anyway' you mean you don't care for them. |
|
11 Mar 04 - 04:01 PM (#1134115) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Roughyed I'd just like to correct my contribution above about Anne Briggs, she does play guitar on Blackwaterside because I heard it on Mike Hardings Radio 2 programme last night and checked that my CD was the same version. Having said that, I think Bert Jansch can still claim the considerable credit for the excellent DADGAD riff because her guitar is beautiful but minimalist (who needs guitar technique when you can sing like that anyway). |
|
12 Mar 04 - 06:13 AM (#1134599) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: el ted What's all this then? Have they brought out a rival to HP? |
|
12 Mar 04 - 03:25 PM (#1135052) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Justin Mousethief is surely right about "Babe I'm Gonna' Leave You". I can tell you a little more about it. Anne Bredon's college roommate later became an assistant to Joan Baez. One day she was singing "Babe..." and Baez said, "Who wrote that?" She ended up recording a beautiful version of the song. About 20 years later, that same woman was playing her guitar and singing the song when her 14 year old son arrived home from school. Hearing the song, he said, "Hey, Ma, I didn't know you sing Led Zeppelin." "This isn't a Led Zeppelin song," she told him, "Anne Bredon wrote this song. The kid laughed and went upstairs. He came back down with a Led Zeppelin album. Sure enough the song was on it (an awful version) with no writer's credit. The woman called the record company. They told her that they had gotten it from the Joan Baez album and had thought it was traditional (the Baez album had no credit either, although Anne had received royalties). Anne ended up receiving more royalties from the Led Zeppelin album than she had ever gotten from the Joan Baez version. |
|
13 Mar 04 - 09:18 AM (#1135461) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Les from Hull I Can't Quit You Baby is a Willie Dixon song but the riff used is very similar to Buddy Guy's 'First Time I Met The Blues'. |
|
13 Mar 04 - 11:41 AM (#1135521) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Tunesmith It amazes me that Jimmy Page can rave on about how good Bert Jansch was, and yet wouldn't automatically credit him with creating "Black Moutain Side" ( the instrumental version ). It would have meant Bert getting much needed cash - and aristic credit - and wouldn't have reduced Pages milions by much. |
|
14 Mar 04 - 06:09 PM (#1136389) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,bjg8@pitt.edu WHat is music if it is not the bringing together of past and present. Copyright laws were not so stringent in the 70's, and by incorporating these musicians work, which they oviously had to have known they were doing, they have allowed their work to get more publicity, adn exposure had they not otherwise done so. Jimmy Page is a genius, Led Zep performed these song that were origionally done by one guy on a porch, adn made them orchestral. to call them theif and unoriogional is laughable |
|
14 Mar 04 - 06:19 PM (#1136407) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,bjg8@pitt.edu You want to talk theives how bout the greatest cover badn of all time The Grateful Dead, "Stagger Lee", "Casey Jones", "Dupree's..."."Samson and Delilah" More than traditional covers, they took from the origional artists, and tribute them all to Hunter/Garcia. I'm sure there are more examples too. |
|
14 Mar 04 - 09:35 PM (#1136526) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,satchel Lest I get too far involved in this, let me just say a few words here. The Grateful Dead covered hundreds of songs, some by the ubiquitous "Trad." like Jack-a-Roe, Peggy-O (Fenario), Sittin on Top of the World, We Bid You Goodnight, and the list goes on and on. All of these, and other like songs, were attributed to "Trad/arranged by the Grateful Dead, or Trad/arranged by Garcia." This includes Sampson and Delilah, as listed above. There is another group of Grateful Dead songs that are based on traditional songs, such as Stagger Lee and Casey Jones. These songs, and the many others like them, take the story of the traditional version and have new sets of lyrics and often (but not always) different tunes. The best two examples of this kind of song are the ones bjg8 has listed above. In the Grateful Dead's Stagger Lee, for example, the female character Delilah (different from Sampson's Delilah)has to kill Stagger Lee because Billy DeLyons is too afraid. In Casey Jones, the addition of the lady in red, and more importantly, the cocaine as the reason for the crash, as well as the entire tune, is much different from any of the traditional versions I have heard. I exchanged emails with Robert Hunter some years ago and he claims that he wasn't thinking of the original songs when he wrote different versions of them for the Grateful Dead. Now, I may believe that he TRIED to remove the actual songs from his head before he wrote, but there's a better chance of George Bush being the education president than of Hunter succeeding completely. What I came away from the email correspondence with was that he used the stories of the traditional songs as inspiration to write different lyrics. The Grateful Dead played hundreds of covers throughout their career, and those that made it onto albums were credited to either Trad. or their original composer("Turn on your Lovelight" by Bobby "Blue" Bland). Keep in mind here that the band was never averse to giving credit where due; a quick check of their recordings will confirm this. The traditionally-inspired songs were listed as Hunter/Garcia, and frankly, they should have been, because these were new and different songs in their own right. A more complicated case is Lady with a Fan/Terrapin Station. Is this a "stolen" song because it tells the story of the traditional "Lady of Carlisle"? I think not, because the overall composition is about much, much more. The movement of the traditional into popular music only strengthens folk music. It brings a little musicology to the masses, so to speak. I think that we all need to be a little more cognizant of who and what we call thievery. Sometimes, it should be called "Tribute." |
|
27 May 04 - 12:30 AM (#1194623) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: St Louis Blues Did anyone catch the jimmy page black crowes album? The black crowes rock when they rock. Jimmy's performance on that album steals the show. It is too bad the crows dont write songs as good as they play them. I bet they could cover any delta song and sound good. It is too bad they didnt learn from jimmy when they had the chance. Even if he "stole" from others, like so many other true blues artists, he makes listening to his music pure like every other "thief" that has inspired him. I dont give a shit who wrote what, I care about who jams the best. i dont go to concerts to see who wrote songs, I go to hear good bands play good songs, Isnt it what the delta is all about? |
|
27 May 04 - 01:03 AM (#1194635) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Blackcatter Yeah, let's slam the boys of Led Zep. No one ever seems to mention that the record company has copyright lawyers and researchers who clearly didn't give a damn. Sad that some fellow musicians can't see the forest for the trees. |
|
27 May 04 - 06:54 PM (#1195441) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: ddw I'm not familiar with LZ's version of Travelin' Riverside, but if it bears any semblance to Robert Johnson's it should be noted in passing that RJ lifted the main guitar lick in that from a 1928 or '29 recording of Hambone Willie Newbern's Roll and Tumble. RJ also used the same basic lick for If I Had Possession Over Judgment Day. A few days ago, after spending hours working out an arrangement of When The Levee Breaks from the Kansas Joe McCoy/Memphis Minnie version, I found out it was a "Led Zeppelin song" and their version is revered for a seminal drum line. Ruined my day! Then I listened to it and felt their version was so far from the original that it didn't make much difference. cheeers, david |
|
27 May 04 - 08:25 PM (#1195494) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: McGrath of Harlow I've sometimes wondered whether the name is a sort of word play on Leidseplein, in Amsterdam. |
|
17 Nov 04 - 01:38 AM (#1329540) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST Me too. |
|
17 Nov 04 - 06:16 PM (#1330433) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: chris nightbird childs Blues borrows from Blues, always has. Even before anyone thought of getting lawyers and "plagarists" involved. As far as Folk goes, the Zeppelin boys have paid their dues there as well... |
|
18 Nov 04 - 08:14 AM (#1330983) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Pete Jennings Dunno about that, Chris, Bob still owes me a couple of pints and at least a packet of fags from back in the late sixties...(!) |
|
18 Nov 04 - 08:39 AM (#1330995) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Nick >>I've sometimes wondered whether the name is a sort of word play on Leidseplein, in Amsterdam. Doubtful. Was it not supposed to have been coined by Keith Moon as his view as to how the band would go down? |
|
18 Nov 04 - 08:40 AM (#1330996) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Paco Rabanne Are they are as good as Paul Newman's sauces? |
|
18 Nov 04 - 12:07 PM (#1331175) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: chris nightbird childs Yes, Nick that's true... and Pete, it just sounds funny calling Robert Plant Bob... |
|
18 Nov 04 - 04:55 PM (#1331520) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Blackcatter Bob Plant. Hmmmmm. Sounds like a manufacturing center for fishing floats. I guess they could have branched out into Led Zeppelin Weights. |
|
19 Nov 04 - 08:40 AM (#1332208) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Ross I think the Who were closing to splitting up at the time Led Zeppelin were formed; and some sort of almagamation was premised with the New Yardbirds - can't remember what though I see no reference to Page's obsession with the occult - he lived in a house on Loch Ness which was previously occupied by the reputed most evil man who ever lived |
|
21 Nov 04 - 10:15 PM (#1334884) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Jack Something I saw earlier if you scroll up, you'll see someone mentioning the credits mentioned on LZ 4 for When the Levee Breaks according to what he sees on his "CD" version. Quite frankly, right off the top of my head, I'm not abolutely certain as to the accuracy of this particular example. BUT....... I will say this much. If you do some research and look for the ORIGINAL VINYL RECORDS from the time periods when they were released (ie; first pressings), and compare them to what today's "CD's" show as far as copyright credits, I'm absolutely certain that you will see at least one or more differences on a number of their albums. This in itself should be evidence that over the years, they've surely had to answer for the discrepancies in their credits. Always consider the source!!!!!........... |
|
22 Nov 04 - 08:34 AM (#1335203) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Pete Jennings Can't pretend that I knew him really, Chris, he just came into the pub every now and then and I'm sure called himself Bob. He was in a local band whose name I forget but they were pretty good. Then we didn't see him for a while until LZ broke onto the scene. |
|
22 Nov 04 - 11:48 AM (#1335329) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: chris nightbird childs That band MIGHT have been the "Band of Joy". |
|
26 Apr 06 - 09:53 AM (#1727839) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,motorbreth4@aol.com Zeps traveling riverside blues is a ripp of johnny winters' i'm yours and i'm hers , from his first album . listen to freinds .. then listen to csnys' deja vu -- the chords are lifted . the song structure of since ive been loving you is identical to " never " by moby grape - NOT just a brief lyrical nod . listen to the small faces version of you need love . steve marriot was quite ticked off . and check out " diary of a life " by the blues band chicken shack ... sounds way too much like heartbreaker to me ... like that nice acoustic stuff on houses of the holy . alot of it is bert janschs .... just to name a few of the ripp offs of the greatest cover band of all time . |
|
26 Apr 06 - 10:49 AM (#1727896) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Cooklieless and don't know why Didn't they spend many a happy hour drunk/getting stoned with Roy Harper? Up in some secluded hills wasn't it? Didn't they get a good 'steeping' in Celtic music from such sources? Mebbe that's why I hear a certain (can't remember the title right now) Turlough O'Carolan tune in the 'Stairway to Heaven' melody? |
|
26 Apr 06 - 12:11 PM (#1727979) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST well.. when u r jetting all over the world screwing groupies and doing massive amounts of alcohol and drugs in between all the gigs you are playing, who can be bothered to write their own stuff? |
|
05 Jul 06 - 11:56 AM (#1776730) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Rupert http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html gives an in depth account of zeppelin's appropriation of other tunes. They have been sued several times and new cds still do not give money and credit totherightful owners. They have sold about 200 million albums, that's probably that many quid, and been very tight about giving credit and cash whereit is due. |
|
12 Aug 06 - 08:55 PM (#1808440) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Murray MacLeod For an enchanting video of Jimmy Page getting back to the roots, click Here |
|
18 Jan 08 - 09:54 PM (#2239756) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST I think it is interesting to follow the trail to bands who then borrowed from Led Zeppelin. There a number of samples from Led Zeppelin songs on the Beastie Boys' album Licensed to Ill. |
|
19 Jan 08 - 05:28 AM (#2239884) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs But I wrote this: Woke up this mornin' Checked my knob's still there! |
|
19 Jan 08 - 05:57 AM (#2239897) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,nico Was it? |
|
19 Jan 08 - 12:47 PM (#2240051) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice "Didn't they spend many a happy hour drunk/getting stoned with Roy Harper? Up in some secluded hills wasn't it?" Somewhere up Bron Yr Aur way *LOL* |
|
19 Jan 08 - 02:30 PM (#2240109) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice "At a Page and Plant gig watching Nigel Eaton (from Blowzabella) doing an eight minute hurdy gurdy solo at Wembley a few years ago was amazing" Here's Robert Plant, Jimmy Page and Nigel "hurdy gurdy" Eaton in Irvine, California Gallows Pole |
|
19 Jan 08 - 03:12 PM (#2240123) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Roberta Plant Now that is a seriously excellent video Mr. Mole. Nigel Eaton outshines Robert a thousand fold there. |
|
23 Jun 16 - 06:05 PM (#3797307) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Joe Offer I was glad to see this today: Led Zeppelin cleared of plagiarism in Stairway case. Here's the article: Led Zeppelin did not plagiarise the opening chords of the rock epic Stairway to Heaven from the US band Spirit, a Los Angeles jury has found. It said the riff Led Zeppelin was accused of taking from Spirit's 1967 song Taurus "was not intrinsically similar" to Stairway's opening. But it said Led Zeppelin singer Robert plant had access to Taurus. Stairway to Heaven was released in 1971. The case was brought on behalf of Spirit's late guitarist, Randy Wolfe. During the trial, defence lawyers argued that the chord progression in question was very common and had been in use for more than 300 years. The prosecution had argued Led Zeppelin became familiar with Spirit's song after the two bands played on the same bill in Plant's hometown at a club in the English city of Birmingham in 1970. Spirit's bassist Mark Andes testified last week he met Plant at the show and played snooker with him afterward. Plant insisted he had no memory of that night, saying that in all the "hubbub and chaos" it would be hard to remember a one-off meeting 40 years ago. Plant partially attributed his lack of memory to a bad car crash on his way home from the club. Both he and his wife suffered head injuries in the accident, he told the court, after the windshield of his Jaguar was left "buried" in his face. The singer-songwriter also spoke at length about the creation of Stairway to Heaven. He reiterated the assertions made by his bandmates Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones that the song had begun at the country estate Headley Grange and not the Welsh cottage Bron-Yr-Aur, contradicting decades of Led Zeppelin mythology. Led Zeppelin, like Cream and the Rolling Stones and others, brought new life to old blues. I'm sure that ownership of many Led Zeppelin songs could be contested. Whatever the law says, I think they did what was musically correct: to build on what's good and maybe make it better - or at least make it their own. -Joe- |
|
23 Jun 16 - 08:19 PM (#3797326) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: michaelr The court says they're innocent, then that makes it so. A judge also ruled today that the police van driver who broke Freddy Gray's spine is innocent. That makes it so. Right? |
|
23 Jun 16 - 09:02 PM (#3797332) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST The Led Zeppelin verdict is in, and its an acquittal. A victory for common sense, to me. First, you can't copyright a part of chord progression — if you could, there would only be, like, 20 songs in the world. More relevant, though, is what I advised the Led Zeppelin team to focus on: that the descending line underneath an arpeggiated A minor chord goes back way before Spirit's "Taurus" in 1968 — a string of 60s hits used it, including "Music To Watch Girls By" and "Chim Chimminey". The legal maneuver is not to try to prove that Stairway to Heaven is different from Spirit, but to show that both songs are borrowing from a musical motif that goes back at least to the time of Bach. This is a switch from the way lawyers used to defend copyright claims. I worked for CBS when Billy Joel and Michael Jackson were sued, respectively, for "We Didn't Start the Fire" and "Billy Jean." In both cases, previously unknown songwriters who had never written anything before, claimed that these brilliant songwriters stole their songs. How likely is that? The defense tried to prove differences and won, but they were tough trials and there were many other cases defended with a similar strategy that lost (such as the My Sweet Lord/He's So Fine case). There are lots of songs that sound alike, but hey, there are only 12 notes. Daniel Levitin |
|
23 Jun 16 - 09:08 PM (#3797334) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Joe Offer Actually, Michael, yes. Both are innocent, as far as the law goes. One can argue right and wrong forever, and never come up with a definitive answer that satisfies everyone. With songs, it's a very difficult question, and there are no easy answers. Led Zeppelin made a lot of money, and a great proportion of it was due to that little riff at the beginning of "Stairway to Heaven." And that riff is simple enough that many people could have come up with it independently, or maybe from having heard it sometime way back in their lifetime. But it was Led Zeppelin who made that riff and that song what they became, and I don't believe anybody else deserves compensation for that. -Joe- |
|
24 Jun 16 - 07:35 PM (#3797510) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: michaelr Joe: This. |
|
25 Jun 16 - 10:43 AM (#3797621) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: John P michaelr, are you arguing that Led Zeppelin stole that chord progression from Spirit? You haven't actually said. Or are you arguing that Led Zeppelin being exonerated by the court is somehow akin to Nazism? Either way, it seems daft. And offensive in the second case. As for the first, I wrote that chord pattern about three months after I learned to play the guitar. Who should I sue? Jerry Jeff Walker? Also, the thing that sets Stairway apart is what happens after the descending run, the rhythm of the G going back up to the Am. The Spirit song does something else entirely at that point, the point at which the myriad of other Am-with=descending-bass riffs differentiate themselves from each other. |
|
25 Jun 16 - 11:02 AM (#3797625) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: michaelr No, and no. We'll never know, but the similarity between "Taurus" and "Stairway" is close enough to make one wonder whether Zep was not at least subconsciously influenced by the former. The fact that Randy Wolfe has been dead for decades and did not during his lifetime decide to sue Zep also makes one wonder. What I'm saying is that just because a guy in a robe made a ruling, it does not necessarily mean that justice was served. |
|
25 Jun 16 - 11:33 AM (#3797633) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: punkfolkrocker Likewise, just because a bunch of mercenary for hire lawyers and accounts actively seek similarities between songs in order to convince otherwise laid back musicians, or their surviving estate's lawyers and accountants, that they have a good case to sue.... ... does not necessarily mean that justice will be served....??? 🙄 |
|
25 Jun 16 - 01:06 PM (#3797655) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs Whatever the truth, LedZep would have would have produced an infinitely finer listening experience. |
|
25 Jun 16 - 01:15 PM (#3797657) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Murray MacLeod If anybody got ripped off by the Stairway to Heaven riff it wasn't Randy California, it was Davy Graham ... listen to |
|
25 Jun 16 - 01:16 PM (#3797658) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: punkfolkrocker Bonz - gotta disagree due to me believing they are both truly excellent bands... Go find Spirit's "Best of" and "Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus" - I know you know exactly where to look - then sit back with your headphones on...😎 |
|
25 Jun 16 - 01:17 PM (#3797659) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Murray MacLeod ooops ... this clip |
|
29 Sep 18 - 02:21 AM (#3953544) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Gerry The court battle over Stairway to Heaven isn't over: Article at ABC News Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven faces another legal battle after judge orders a new trial Posted Sat 29 Sep 2018, 12:13pm A United States appeals court has ordered a new trial in a lawsuit accusing Led Zeppelin of copying an obscure 1960s instrumental for the intro to its classic 1971 rock anthem Stairway to Heaven. A federal court jury in Los Angeles two years ago found Led Zeppelin did not steal the famous riff from the song Taurus by the band Spirit. But a three-judge panel of the Ninth US Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco ruled unanimously that the lower court judge provided erroneous jury instructions that misled jurors about copyright law central to the suit. It sent the case back to the court for another trial. A phone message left with an attorney for Led Zeppelin, Peter Anderson, was not immediately returned. Michael Skidmore, a trustee for the estate of late Spirit guitarist Randy Wolfe, filed the lawsuit against Led Zeppelin in 2015. Jurors returned their verdict for Led Zeppelin after a five-day trial at which band members Jimmy Page and Robert Plant testified. Page said he wrote the music and Plant has claimed the lyrics, saying Stairway was an original. In several hours of often-animated and amusing testimony, they described the craft behind one of rock's best-known songs. The jury found Stairway to Heaven and Taurus were not substantially similar, according to the Ninth Circuit ruling. But it also said US District Judge R Gary Klausner failed to advise jurors that while individual elements of a song such as its notes or scale may not qualify for copyright protection, a combination of those elements may if it is sufficiently original, Judge Richard Paez said. Wesley Lewis, an attorney who handles copyright cases at the firm Haynes and Boone, said that was an important copyright principle that could prompt jurors to think differently about the case. Judge Klausner also wrongly told jurors that copyright does not protect chromatic scales, arpeggios or short sequences of three notes, the panel found. "This error was not harmless as it undercut testimony by Skidmore's expert that Led Zeppelin copied a chromatic scale that had been used in an original manner," Judge Paez said. The panel also found another jury instruction misleading. Francis Malofiy, an attorney for Mr Skidmore, said in a statement his client faced "unfair rulings at the trial court level" and looked forward "to the challenge of a fair fight." "Today, we are proud that three esteemed jurists from the Ninth Circuit recognised the battle that we fought and the injustice that we faced," he said. One of the issues that came up at trial was that jurors could only listen to experts' renditions of the sheet music for Taurus, not the recorded version of the song as performed by Spirit. Steven Weinberg, a copyright lawyer who watched the trial, said the sheet music for Taurus was not faithful to the recording, so jurors could not fairly compare the songs. The Ninth Circuit in its ruling Friday, local time, said jurors should have been allowed to hear the recording to help establish that Page had "access" to Taurus, meaning he would have been familiar with it. Mr Weinberg said a new jury will now get to hear a recording of Taurus. "I believe that ruling alone has the potential of changing the outcome at the next trial because the jury will finally get to compare 'apples to apples'," he said. |
|
29 Sep 18 - 06:27 AM (#3953568) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,KarenH Wondering about a rubbish Led Zep version of 'Babe I'm Gonna Leave You' mentioned above, as the only issue I can find is amazing. |
|
29 Sep 18 - 07:47 AM (#3953583) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs Then these judges are idiots and time wasters. |
|
30 Sep 18 - 04:41 AM (#3953747) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs Who else saw Jimmy Page play in Neil Christian's Crusaders ? |
|
30 Sep 18 - 12:20 PM (#3953842) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: fat B****rd Hi, Bonzo. I saw Mr. Page with Neil Christian in Cleethorpes in, I think, 1964. A band from London was a rarity in my home town and I asked him how much his leather waistcoat cost. "fifteen shillings" came the friendly but pisstaking reply!. Years later Robert Plant stood on my foot! |
|
30 Sep 18 - 01:36 PM (#3953863) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs Fantastic, I remember he played a Gibson Black Beauty guitar which had 3 pickups, this was at the Assembly Hall in Barnet, where I also saw Ritchie Blackmore playing in Lord Sutch's Savages in September 1962. He was pretty good even then! |
|
30 Sep 18 - 02:07 PM (#3953867) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: fat B****rd First guitarist I ever saw using foot pedals! |
|
30 Sep 18 - 02:08 PM (#3953868) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: fat B****rd Jimmy Page, that is. |
|
30 Sep 18 - 04:27 PM (#3953893) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs Ah yes he had one of those Dearmond volume/tone pedals! |
|
30 Sep 18 - 04:31 PM (#3953894) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs Also used by the guitarist in Tony Rivers & the Castaways and of course The Hunters as shown in this recent clever video! |
|
01 Oct 18 - 02:55 AM (#3953932) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs I shall put the link when I get to my PC. |
|
01 Oct 18 - 03:36 AM (#3953936) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Bonzo3legs De Armond Tone Pedal demo!! |
|
02 Oct 18 - 05:55 PM (#3954284) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: punkfolkrocker here's a sound bloke with an opinion worth listening to... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MBKJDmE-OQ |
|
02 Oct 18 - 08:06 PM (#3954294) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Joe Offer When I worked on the Rise Again songbook, we included a Blues chapter that we're quite proud of. I got the job of researching the songs and finding out who wrote them and who owns the rights to them. I did the best I could, but it was a near-impossible job. Many of those songs that were recorded in the 1920s and 1930s, were recorded by four or five different artists the same year - with no songwriter attribution on any of them. I'm sure Led Zeppelin encountered the same problem, so I wouldn't be overly harsh in criticizing them. They revived good songs for a new generation that otherwise would never have heard anything like this. And at the time, it was common knowledge that Led Zeppelin were singing a lot of old blues songs that they revived. -Joe- You can find our Blues Chapter here, if you're interested:(chapters are in alphabetical order) |
|
03 Oct 18 - 12:30 PM (#3954422) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Jerry Fair enough, but I’m not sure we all knew they were revamping old blues songs at the time, since it was much later on that I came across such songs by earlier recording artistes. However, if it sent a new generation off in search of earlier blues stuff, then that’s no bad thing. However, I did come across an earnest Eric Clapton inspired player once who refused to believe that some of the songs were taken from Robert Johnson, which was a bit worrying. Hopefully the subsequent release of ‘Mr Johnson and Me’ (whatever it was called) might have convinced him. |
|
05 Oct 18 - 04:28 AM (#3954796) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Will Fly I once created a video for YouTube on how to play the tune to "Nobody Knows You When You're Down And Out". One commenter on the video kept insisting that it wasn't quite like the Clapton original - he'd obviously never heard of Bessie Smith! |
|
05 Oct 18 - 08:23 AM (#3954838) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Jerry Yes, but I wouldn’t castigate people for not knowing the origins of songs, more them being too blinded by their hero worship to accept the truth. A guitarist at an open mic once asked me to join him in his rendition of Malted Milk: - Do you know it? - Yes, Robert Johnson. - No, no, Eric Clapton. - Yes, but it was Robert Johnson before that.... - No, it was Clapton! ( increasingly annoyed) - Yes, but it was.... He then launched straight into it to shut me up. Probably just as well. |
|
05 Oct 18 - 12:12 PM (#3954893) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Joe Offer I think Clapton has been especially good about acknowledging and respecting his sources. |
|
05 Oct 18 - 05:56 PM (#3955001) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Jerry Yes, quite - therein is the irony. But with Led Zep, couldn’t they just have used Trad Arr, if the original sources were unclear? |
|
05 Oct 18 - 08:18 PM (#3955016) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: Joe Offer Most likely, Jerry, that decision was up to their publisher and their agent - musicians rarely get to make such decisions once they actually begin to make serious money. -Joe- |
|
06 Oct 18 - 01:27 PM (#3955110) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: GUEST,Jerry That sounds like the real problem behind all these copyright gripes, since it’s not in the agents’ interests to miss out on extra income, in full knowledge that few can afford to sue them. |
|
06 Oct 18 - 02:55 PM (#3955136) Subject: RE: Led Zeppelin's sources From: michaelr Perhaps the state of Bob Mosley should sue over this. |