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20 Jan 03 - 01:24 PM (#870673) Subject: Do away with the dots From: GUEST,ET Having spent hours on licensing reforms, I thought I'd seek advice on somthing simpler - does anyone have any useful hints on abandoning written music or am I too old and scenile to learn tunes in my head? Its hard to read, traslate and play from music at session speed and anyway my music is getting soaked in beer. |
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20 Jan 03 - 01:32 PM (#870680) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: Schantieman Sit there with yer instrument, listen, touch a few notes, if they sound OK, fill in the gaps with a few more. Build it up bit by bit. If they don't sound right, try different ones! Of course, when everyone else looks at you and scowls, you might want to try a different note too! Steve |
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20 Jan 03 - 01:50 PM (#870700) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: Jeri The way I sometimes learn tunes is to start with the dots until I get the tune in my head. For a while, I try playing as much as I can without looking, but I have the music there in case I get stuck. Eventually, I remember the whole tune. |
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20 Jan 03 - 01:55 PM (#870707) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: GUEST I think Jeri's nailed it. Practise |
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20 Jan 03 - 01:56 PM (#870708) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: Genie Is THAT what you folks refer to as "the dots" -- plain ol' music scores? |
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20 Jan 03 - 02:00 PM (#870711) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: GUEST Not just folkies, Genie. Most musicians, I'd think. Some refer to them as 'tadpoles' |
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20 Jan 03 - 02:05 PM (#870717) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: sian, west wales I leant my concertina to a friend (classically trained) who fancied playing it. I thought he'd be able to get a feel for it before committing to buying one. I also leant him an instruction manual ... and now REALLY with I hadn't. He's so fixated on the dots that, in a year, he's really made next to no progress. And I can't see that he'll EVER manage in an informal situation. sian |
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20 Jan 03 - 02:59 PM (#870747) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: Don Firth I'm a switch-hitter. I can use written music or not. Other than learning new stuff, I prefer not. Wean yourself away from depending on it constantly by listening carefully, then attempting to duplicate what you hear. You'll spend a lot of time groping around at first, but it's like learning to shoot from the hip. At first you miss a lot. Then you get better. Then you're right on. Practice, practice, practice. . . . Don Firth |
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20 Jan 03 - 03:52 PM (#870779) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: Schantieman A friend of mine is a classically trained violinist & music teacher. Recently she's started to play folk with a couple of others, both folkies. The first time she came to the club she played from the dots and it was very accurate, lovely tone, but no expression. Last week they played in a big (ish) concert. It was the same at first. Then she stopped reading it and just played it - and it REALLY took off! But you gotta practise! (That's my trouble - I dont!!) Steve |
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20 Jan 03 - 04:10 PM (#870793) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: Jeri To be perfectly honest, I've heard musicians who use sheet music while they play and sound wonderful. The dots are just inconvenient at sessions and don't look cool. You can also practice quite a bit with the dots. In my opinion, what you need to focus practice on isn't necessarily playing, it's remembering. |
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20 Jan 03 - 04:16 PM (#870795) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: Genie I didn't say "you folkies," I said "you folks" (meaning the ones I've seen posting here and using the term). I always assumed you were referring to some newfangled techno thingie like ABC notation that can be plugged into a software program to translate to a musical score. If that's what "the dots" are, how would you ever write a symphonic composition (efficiently) without them? I realize that guitar tabs, if I knew how to read them, would probably be easier to "translate" to playing a piece on guitar than the notes on a staff are. But having learned to read "the dots" in grade school (at least within an octave or two of middle C) and having sung from church hymnals since childhood, I find "the dots" almost intuitively obvious to read -- in that the vertical position of a note corresponds readily to its pitch. I can kind of 'see' the melody in a musical score (even though I can't sight-read it precisely) in a way that I don't think I ever could with ABC notation or guitar tabs. FWIW, I play guitar by ear -- or, rather, by ear and by trial and error -- in addition to reading chord diagrams or chord names. Being able to read music (within the range of the human voice) doesn't interfere with that. If anything, it helps. And since I DON'T play piano by ear, I'd be lost without the sheet music for piano. Genie |
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20 Jan 03 - 04:26 PM (#870805) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: katlaughing We never called them dots in orchestra or in classical piano and violin lessons. I'd never heard the term until coming to Mudcat. Even my mom and dad, who played all kinds of dance tunes and other songs, by ear, never referred to it as dots. I don't think you're ever too old to learn by ear, as long as you aren't tone deaf. The best way I've found to learn a new tune is to listen, listen, listen. I'll play a CD, tape, etc. of whatever I want to learn, over and over until I've got the tune in my head. Then, I'll pick it out on the fiddle or piano. If I don't have a recording, I will use the sheet music, but only to get an idea of the tune, then I leave off from the dots. Having started on the lap dulcimer long after learning to read music, I find I prefer to play it without any dots; it's easier and more creative, for me. And, it reminds me more of my parents' playing.:-) kat |
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20 Jan 03 - 04:33 PM (#870813) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: John Routledge Jeri has it It is remembering the tune. Without dots,if you don't know the tune in your head,you don't know where to put your fingers next |
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20 Jan 03 - 05:10 PM (#870849) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: *daylia* GUEST ET - beer and reading music don't seem to work together very well for me either. :-) Then again, sometimes beer and playing 'by ear' doesn't work very well either, depending on the amount of beer and the tolerance level of whoever else is around! But I find that beer and listening to music seems to work okay! Either way, I'd take the music over the beer any day, 'dots' or no 'dots'! daylia |
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20 Jan 03 - 05:24 PM (#870862) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: GUEST,ET Grateful for all this advice. Guiness is good for you its says but not for reading music, especically if its soaked in same. Recon its practice. May join Morris Band. Hard to play with music stuck on a prong in front of you like a brass band marching down the street. Must go. Off to practice. Cheers |
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20 Jan 03 - 06:04 PM (#870894) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: M.Ted If you can whistle, hum, or even sing a tune without music--that means that you know a tune, and that means you can figure out how to play it, note for note, without the music--you should do this, for every tune you want to be able to play in a session. To memorize, try repeating a tune ten to fifteen times after you can play it smoothly--It might seem a little awkward at first, but keep at it--Repetition is the key-- It is easier to memorize by listening than by trying to read and remember. If all else fails, make a recording of yourself reading the music, and play along with yourself til you've got it down-- If it seems difficult, remember that it is easier for "read only" musicians to learn to pick out things by ear than for "ear only" musicians to learn to read-- |
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20 Jan 03 - 06:09 PM (#870895) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: GUEST What M Ted said |
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20 Jan 03 - 06:47 PM (#870940) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: Burke I never heard of 'dots' before internet groups. I assumed it was a British expression. |
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20 Jan 03 - 06:56 PM (#870945) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: Burke OK, I checked the OED. It's not new & not particularly British. I guess internet usage maybe had made it more popular. Here's the OED entry: pl. Originally, the notes on sheet music; hence, written or printed music. slang. 1927 Melody Maker June 586, I will give you the 'dots' for them. 1956 K. BAKER in S. Traill Play that Music i. 22 When speaking of jazz, I mean that kind of music that is all spontaneous, fully extemporized, in other wordsno 'dots'. 1968 Crescendo Apr. 38/2, I know of not one other guitarist in my home county..capable of playing an arrangement..in a manner that could be termed 'doing the dots justice'. |
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20 Jan 03 - 07:16 PM (#870954) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Hi, Memorization oddly enough is a physical thing. Sometimes people have an erroneous idea that it's mental. If you're learning a song, you have to sing it over and over to get it. Your tongue, lips, and voice have a physical memory. They remember the words. This is true also of guitar, banjo etc. When you are learning something from music, the fingers do the walking and if you play it long enough they will remember where to go. It's really important to try to memorize as much as you can in music because that's the way to internalize it. Memorize licks on the guitar, scales, songs (words) but sing aloud or with a whisper so your mouth remembers. Frank |
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20 Jan 03 - 07:28 PM (#870959) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: *daylia* Burke the only way I know how to really 'do the dots justice' is to memorize the music I've learned that way. It seems to me that there's a depth of expression, an understanding, a continuity that just can't be achieved while I'm still focused on reading the music. Perhaps the mental exercise obscures the 'soulful' experience of the music? Maybe that's why I've heard children call playing music from memory "playing by heart!" daylia |
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20 Jan 03 - 07:46 PM (#870967) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: smallpiper My Dad always said that if you can whistle a tune you can play it!pity I wistle out of tune! |
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20 Jan 03 - 08:29 PM (#870999) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: Sorcha Mostly, I''m with Jeri on this, but "memorize" is not the same as "have" or "know". I began as a Classical Violinist--after I started playing fidde it took me almost 15 yrs to learn what "by ear" actually meant and be able to do it. I am still not very good at it,but I can "get" a tune without actually memorizing......it has to do with having the tune in both your head and your fingers.......(??) If you "memorize", you can forget, but if you "have" a tune, you don't forget. Make sense? Probably not. I also watch other fiddlers fingers a LOT--some are easier to read than others, but it does help. If you do this a lot you can pick up subtle clues about what the next note will be. I tend to learn tunes by 1) liking it a lot; 2)listening a lot;3) looking at the "dots" (if possible) and playing it a lot; then trying to remember not the dots, but the tune in my head and where the fingers need to walk. I never heard them called "dots" before Mudcat, either. It was score or sheet music. |
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20 Jan 03 - 09:11 PM (#871028) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: Noreen First heard it used by a lovely Irish whistle player, Peader Finn, who described someone's playing as having 'a touch of the black dots about it' which, as you can imagine, means someone playing as if from music, not having internalised the tune, and not able to make it flow. These days used a lot more commonly, but I would still use it with a bit of a smile- it's not a 'serious' description. |
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20 Jan 03 - 09:44 PM (#871052) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: Genie When I play with the bluegrass folks in Seattle, most of them have "The Fiddler's Fake Book." If they don't already know a tune, many of these fine instrumental players are, understandably, reluctant to do a melodic break without "the dots." Just watching someone do the guitar chords won't give you the exact tune. Once folks know the tune, they, of course, don't need the dots. And you can learn a tune by hearing it repeatedly. (Another way of saying it is that one can scan a page of music visually many times in a minute, but you cannot hear a 2-minute tune repeatedly in one minute.) But with a simple score in front of them, many instrumentalists can PLAY the tune BEFORE they memorize it, and that playing is a good way of learning it. Many times I'll be at some kind of session where someone wants to play/sing a song that someone did, say, the previous week. If they rely on memory or a lyric-chord sheet, usually they can't play and sing it without the presence of the person who introduced it. But if the tune is printed in simple "dot" form, there's no problem for the ones who do read music. |
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20 Jan 03 - 09:48 PM (#871057) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: NicoleC Rats, smallpiper! I can't whistle at ALL! |
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21 Jan 03 - 07:29 AM (#871315) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: GUEST,Noddy .... I put dots for there is no beginning I put dots for there is no end.... |
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21 Jan 03 - 12:53 PM (#871529) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: smallpiper But NicoleC he hinted that diddling the tune was a good substitute and he was right! That is, after all, how music was kept alive in certain parts of the Uk for many years.... so if you can't whistle diddle! |
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21 Jan 03 - 01:03 PM (#871535) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: C-flat I once played with a jazz drummer who read from sheet music. I'd never seen anything like it. You couldn't call it "dots", more like a bunch of spiders had dipped their feet in ink and ran amock over the page! |
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21 Jan 03 - 01:27 PM (#871558) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: GUEST,Pedant Guest, dat kind o' dot is called a "ellipse," and ya's s'posed ta only use 3 dots They's also a other kind o' dots dat ya does a Polka to. P |
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21 Jan 03 - 06:16 PM (#871777) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: radriano I can make do with or without the dots. But trying to catch a tune played a mile a minute (as in some sessions) can be somewhat futile. Learning by ear is easier if you can get a musician (or teacher) to play sections of a tune slower so your ear (and brain) can digest it better. |
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22 Jan 03 - 02:13 AM (#872020) Subject: RE: Do away with the dots From: Hrothgar I know somebody who learned to play piano using dots - and can't play the piano without them. Same person learned fiddle by ear, and when playing fiddle can't read music to save her life! |