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08 Feb 03 - 09:59 AM (#885449) Subject: Lay the bent to the bonnie broom? Meanin From: katlaughing Moved over from another thread: Subject: RE: Folk music questions I'm afraid to ask From: Mockingbird MacGillickutty - PM Date: 07 Feb 03 - 11:58 PM I need to know what the expression "lay the bent to the bonny broome" Broome is a weed or grass in Scotland-does one "lay the bent to" it by means of sexual activity? Help me out I need to explain it to the old folks. It has got to be fairly acurate. Unlike the Mojo thread. Doesn't any folkie ask about for such information while on Louisiana holiday? |
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08 Feb 03 - 10:08 AM (#885456) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: Ed. Some attempts at explanation are detailed on this page (Scroll down) |
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08 Feb 03 - 10:14 AM (#885457) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: harpgirl if bent = horn, then what does lay the "horn" to the bonny broome imply? |
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08 Feb 03 - 10:18 AM (#885458) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: Ed. Sex |
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08 Feb 03 - 11:18 AM (#885513) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: nutty Bent's are a kind of grass that were used for floor covering and bedding. Robert Herrick (16th Century) in 'Ceremonies for Candlemas Eve' says ... "Green rushes then and sweetest bents With cooler oaken boughs Come in for comely ornaments To re-adorn the house" Indeed, laying them on top of cut branches of broom would make a superior kind of bed, so the meaning could well be sexual. |
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08 Feb 03 - 11:22 AM (#885520) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: leprechaun Or it might have something to do with sleep. I swear, you people have a one track mind. Somebody should wash your bagpipes out with soap. |
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08 Feb 03 - 11:23 AM (#885522) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: katlaughing So this would have nothing to do with housesweeping?**bg** |
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08 Feb 03 - 11:35 AM (#885532) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: Malcolm Douglas Oh God, no, not another "What does lay the bent to the bonny broom" thread. We've had a heap of them, Kat, you ought to know that. I saw the question and hoped it might be overlooked until the search engine was working again and the bulk of the "repeat" requests from people who've tried looking for something and got no results had dried up... Not your fault, MacGillickutty. Since we're here again, here are two links to earlier discussions. LYR clarify -- Bent to the Bonnie Broom? RE: 'twasisters' lay the bent to bonny broom Read the discussion in the first link, in which romantic ideas about "magical herb lore" are gone over, then check the second, which contains a different (and more likely) explanation; together with a very long list of links to many other discussions and material here and elsewhere. They mostly relate to versions of The Cruel Sister, of course, which this refrain was never sung with in tradition; it was bolted on in the late 1960s, with the tune, from a 17th century English version of Riddles Wisely Expounded. That arrangement, by the band Pentangle, became very popular, and a lot of people sing it now believing it to be an authentic traditional form of the song. One thing you need to bear in mind is that that version of Riddles was taken from the English musician and raconteur Thomas D'Urfey's book Pills to Purge Melancholy, which contained a whole raft of songs and verses traditional and modern (modern in the early 18th century, that is), a high proportion of which were comic or just plain dirty. Romantic folklorists of the 19th and early 20th centuries to the contrary, my money's on the more recent opinion. |
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08 Feb 03 - 11:41 AM (#885539) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: katlaughing Oh, shoot, Malcolm, you are right, I should have known, but somewhere along the line I missed those ones. I'll get out the hair shirt, directly. Thanks. |
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04 Nov 05 - 02:56 PM (#1597498) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: GUEST Here's my guess...jumping over a broom was a symbolic act in the Celtic marriage ceremony. Perhaps the phrase means that there will be a wedding. And perhaps it is a phrase to frame the age-old tradition of mothers trying to find suitable mates for their daughters. |
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04 Nov 05 - 05:03 PM (#1597592) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: GUEST,DB Oh right! It wos the celts wot done it! They did a lot they did! |
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04 Nov 05 - 06:19 PM (#1597632) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: The Borchester Echo jumping over a broom was a symbolic act in the Celtic marriage ceremony But 'living over the brush' used to mean that no form of marriage ceremony had been entered into . . . |
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03 Sep 09 - 06:23 PM (#2715773) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: GUEST,Y. L. this thread is that old but I looked for the meaning now for the song "cruel sister" I think it could be a double-meaning, once the marriage (like mentioned above) and sleeping (sleeping egual to dying). The two things are important in the song. PS: sorry for the bad English, I'm German |
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03 Sep 09 - 07:46 PM (#2715820) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: Bernard Your bad English is far better than my attempts at German!! ;o) |
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03 Sep 09 - 09:14 PM (#2715863) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: BobKnight Broom is NOT a grass. It's a bush that grows to about 3-4 feet high, dark green foliage, with yellow blossom. It's inclined to grow in clumps, sometimes covering vast expanses of moorland. Not to be confused with "whins" or gorse, which grows in the same way, but is a thorn-bush, with yellow flowers. |
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05 Feb 11 - 09:09 AM (#3089148) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: GUEST The bent (weedy grass) lay (close) to the bonnie (nice) broom it means that the bad grass grows near beatiful plants. It is a metaphor for the two sister, one bad and the other nice. |
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05 Feb 11 - 02:38 PM (#3089331) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: GUEST,leeneia My dictionary from 1934 says that bent can be grass, a grassy reed or Scotch heather. |
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06 Feb 11 - 02:04 PM (#3089940) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: Little Robyn Except, as Malcolm said in 2003 "...relate to versions of The Cruel Sister, of course, which this refrain was never sung with in tradition; it was bolted on in the late 1960s, with the tune, from a 17th century English version of Riddles Wisely Expounded. That arrangement, by the band Pentangle, became very popular, and a lot of people sing it now believing it to be an authentic traditional form of the song." So while it's a very convenient metaphor, the bent and broom really had nothing to do with the sisters, good or bad. Robyn |
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06 Feb 11 - 08:06 PM (#3090129) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: GUEST,leeneia Buy Robyn, it doesn't make any sense in the context of 'Riddles Wisely Expounded,' either. I sing a lot. Some words and some songs just feel good in your mouth, and I think this phrase, with its bouncings B's, is one of them. |
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25 Jun 11 - 06:02 PM (#3176432) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: GUEST,AliHarden If the "bent" is a coarse grass then the laying close to "bonnie broom" would be a metaphor for the corrupting power of sexual desire, cf. "Let no man steal your thyme": "A woman is a branchy tree/And man's a clinging vine". Besides, "lay" is rarely used without a sexual connotation. I don't see the grass being the wicked sister; in fact, one could argue that she is the broom which has been choked by the grass. Sorry to be so "one-track", but all the old folksy songs were re-vamped in the 60s with a distinctly sexual flavour and full of menacing double-entendre (cf. Jack Orion: "He neither kissed her when he came/nor when from her he did go/and in and out/of her window..." etc.) |
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26 Jun 11 - 06:14 AM (#3176614) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: stallion mmmmmm don't think that because the song was re-assembled in the "sexy sixties" it changed it's meaning. The problem we have today is that we have lost the meanings and the symbolisms that would have been readily understood even a hundred years ago. Actually, songs have been tidied up a lot to be presented to the modern public, indeed a lot of things have been tidied up, probably Victoria RG's influence on society! We had a street in York that had it's name changed from Grope lane to Grape lane, that itself had been changed in 19th C from it's 18th century name Grope c**t lane, famous for it's prostitutes! Not wishing to bang on but I have uncovered snippets of a version of Jolly Waggoner that makes the Waterson's version look like a Sunday school hymn. So get out of the Drawing room (withdrawing room if you like)take the black frock off and understand the underclass whose only real pleasures from labour were drinking, singing and sex. |
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26 Jun 11 - 06:27 AM (#3176625) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: Brian Peters "I don't see the grass being the wicked sister; in fact, one could argue that she is the broom which has been choked by the grass." Please can we get this straight? 'Lay the Bent to the Bonny Broom' has NO known traditional association with the 'Cruel Sister' / 'Two Sisters' ballad. See Malcolm Douglas and Little Robyn, above. 'Two Sisters' was, however, collected with a variety of refrains including 'Binnorie', 'Bow Down / The bough shall bend to me', 'Hey ho my Nanny - O' and 'Jinny flower gen and rosemary'. Whether refrains like that added any content to the ballad is debatable. In their proper context of Child 1 ('Riddles') it's possible that the bent and the broom once carried sexual connotations relevant to the story, but the ballad was collected much more frequently without the bent / broom refrain. 'Ninety-nine and ninety', anyone? |
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30 Jun 11 - 04:26 PM (#3179278) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: GUEST,Aliharden Wow this was my first forum post ever, at what I thought was a dead thread. I'm glad there was some response. @ Brian: I wasn't suggesting that song's mythical original writer (or whatever) associated either sister with bent or broom; just that mine is one interpretation of the lines of the Pentangle song (lets call a spade a spade here) which is in line with their re-presentation of other folk songs/ballads. (Though I do now see that I didn't actually mention Pentangle or BJ in my post.) @ Stallion: haha, yes there is also a "grove street" here in Oxford with a similar heritage. Again, I was speaking in a purely Pentangle context: I know there wasn't necessarily a conscious sexing-up, and that those specific songs were chosen for revamping for their inherent dark and dirty charm. |
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13 Jun 14 - 11:46 AM (#3632723) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: GUEST dancing around a bush? |
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21 Jun 16 - 12:12 PM (#3796840) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: GUEST |
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21 Jun 16 - 12:32 PM (#3796844) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: Jim Carroll As I understand it, bent (the rough grass that grows near the sea and the broom both had magical properties attributed to them and a combination of the two was believed to be a powerful protection against evil. Broom around here in the West of Ireland is referred to as The May Bush and was still being brought into homes on the 1st of May when we first visited the area. The song most associated with the belief, "Riddles", is not a sexual song, but a battle of wits between a stranger and a family from the north (dodgy lot Northerners - remember that Outlandish Knight feller!!) with magical abilities associated with it, one feeling out the other with questions, so to speak. The welcoming of the stranger is ritualistic, with the three daughters being given specific tasks - to let the stranger and seal the door (with a silver pin), to make the bed and the to pleasure him. The questions take the form of a battle of wits as with the other ballads of this genre - False Knight on the Road and Captain Wedderburn, for instance. Fascinating song. Jim Carroll |
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21 Jun 16 - 02:41 PM (#3796867) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: MGM·Lion A-propos that last post of Jim's, I recently posted on the Mudcat Poetry Corner thread one of the limericks with which I won a Folk Review competition way back when, for limericks summarising ballads. My one for Child #1 'Riddles...', #4, 'Captain Wedderburn', &c &c, went:— It's part of an ancient tradition That persons of noble condition Must faddle and fiddle To answer a riddle If they wish to indulge in coition ≈M≈ |
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25 Aug 21 - 07:25 AM (#4117792) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: GUEST The bent (weedy grass) lay (close) to the bonnie (nice) broom it means that the bad grass grows near beatiful plants. It is a metaphor for the two sister, one bad and the other nice. Post |
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25 Aug 21 - 08:43 AM (#4117806) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: Felipa The most recent suggestion from guest was proposed earlier on in this thread and refuted with the information that the bent and broom chorus was only added to the Cruel Sister (borrowed from another song) in the 1960s. re Jim Carroll's 2016 contribution, I understand "May" to refer to the Hawthorn, which also flowers in May. I suppose the names may vary from place to place. I've also heard in Derry (N Ireland) of people warding of evil spirits by placing branches over their doors on May day; the people who told me remembered the custom but it had pretty much died out by the 1970s, when I heard of it. The February tradition of making and displaying St Brigid's crosses does continue. |
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25 Aug 21 - 09:00 AM (#4117807) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: GUEST,Peter Laban There are still some corners in Clare where people put leaves/branches over or on the door on the first of May. It was pretty common in Ennistimon but seems to be getting rarer in the last decade. Often chestnut leaves are put on doors, probably because they're among the first to appear and avaliable locally, but other leaves as well. |
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25 Aug 21 - 12:02 PM (#4117831) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: The Man from UNCOOL To further address Jim C's post and Felipe's, "may" can be hawthorn: it sure is in southern England [certainly as far north as Gloucestershire]. It's a likely local name for the main flower that blooms in May. If the spelling is accurate, surely "bonnie" suggests a Scots origin, hence the broom is the yellow flower, as in The Broom Of The Cowdenknowes. I'm less sure if that's Spring flower. |
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25 Aug 21 - 03:07 PM (#4117849) Subject: RE: Lay the bent to the bonnie broome? Meaning? From: Megan L the man from uncool your timing is right Broom blossoms from march onwards hence the line in another song "I'll tak ye on the road again when the yellows on the broom" since many of the travelin folk overwintered in towns |