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14 Feb 03 - 10:32 AM (#890305) Subject: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Alice It seems like time is standing still a bit or maybe like the whole world is holding its breath, as Dr. Blix is reading his report to the security council as I write this. I'm listening on the radio as he reads his report, wondering if Pres Bush is just waiting for it to end so he can move ahead with his agenda. I'm still waiting for Congress to get a backbone and take responsibility for controlling declaration of war. |
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14 Feb 03 - 12:25 PM (#890385) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Mrrzy I listened too. Bush, however, isn't bothering to wait... my impression is that the reporters, Blix and the nuclear guy, both tried to couch their "we have no real news" in terms of how nicely the Iraqis are complying, which will fall upon deaf ears in the White House. Groupthink, anybody? |
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14 Feb 03 - 12:44 PM (#890403) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Rick Fielding I was listening too Alice, and felt I had to start a thread on Colin Powell. Needless to say, they're ALL distorting what Blix said....but we knew that would happen didn't we? Rick |
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14 Feb 03 - 12:45 PM (#890404) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Alice Some bit of new information (new to me) was that people from South Africa would go to Iraq to implement disarmament verification as had been done in South Africa. |
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14 Feb 03 - 02:49 PM (#890487) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: McGrath of Harlow A pretty encouraging report I thought. And in the face of it the inspectors obviously have to be given more time, because they are getting results. I can't see how a resolution authorising war at this point can possibly be cobbled together in the face of it, or survive a vote. Not that that means there won't be a war, very much more than likely. |
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15 Feb 03 - 07:42 AM (#890916) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Teribus Alice, the take I got on the South African involvement was that they would be going to Iraq to advise the Iraqi Authorities on how to go about improving co-operation with the IAEA teams in Iraq. I too thought the report encouraging - Two existing missile systems look as though they will become proscribed and subject to destruction along with the equipment required to build a third type of ballistic missile. The 380 illegaly imported rocket motors look as though they might go too - Has anybody heard anything about where they came from?? Most likely candidates would probably be North Korea, China, the Ukrain or Russia - it would be interesting to know, and what action is being taken against the sellers. On the missile side of things it appears that JIC's evaluation and information was accurate (Blair Dossier). |
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15 Feb 03 - 08:37 AM (#890929) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Bobert Well, danged. I knew the day would come and it has! I agree with T that in finding the report "encouraging". Peace Bobert |
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15 Feb 03 - 09:42 AM (#890947) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: GUEST,Old Guy Has anyone here heard about the prison in Baghdad where they keep the 2 to 12 year old prisoners? I have heard some mention of it in various news reports but it has been over shadowed buy reports of people protesting about the possibility of a war that might possibly free the children in that prison. I don't know if it is a prison that just detains the children of important people like nuclear scientists so they will keep their mouth shut and do as told or if it is a place where they actually torture the children of people that have done something wrong. It was originally disclosed by Scott Ritter the former weapons inspector when he was warning every one about how dangerous Sadam is. Now that he is accepting money from Iraq he won't talk about this prison. I also have read about a person that escaped to northern Iraq whose daughter had been tortured in that prison. Her legs were crooked and she could hardly walk. Citizens of Baghdad would look at this little girl and do anything Saddam wanted them to do or say. The same person also said Saddam was storing up all of the bodies of dead babies and keeping them in big walk in refrigerators so that if there is a war he can have them placed on the streets and so forth and claim they were killed by the Americans. He said he knew this because he was a cab driver and he had to transport some of the dead babies during a parade of dead babies. He said the stench was terrific because of the decomposed condition of the corpses. Should we concern ourselves with the quality of life for the people living under Saddam Hussien brutal dictatorship or should we only concerned about preserving the quality of our own comfortable lives? If we lived in Baghdad would we have the time to sit and discuss why war should be avoided? Would we have a computer and access? Would we be able to protest what our government is doing? Would we live through it? Old Guy |
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15 Feb 03 - 10:09 AM (#890956) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Alice If we don't know exactly where the biological weapons are, poison, bacteria, virus, and we bomb a place holding those substances, isn't it obvious that we would be inadvertantly releasing all those agents into the atmosphere? The pressure of military attack is making Saddam be a little more cooperative, but I would like to see the same intensity and power placed on increasing inspections to find all the biological agents. I would also like to see the same concern in cleaning up biological weapons left over in the former Soviet Union, where some are in unsecured areas, and ensuring that biological weapons scientists are not vulnerable to terrorist recruitment. Click here |
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15 Feb 03 - 10:20 AM (#890959) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Bobert Yo, Old Guy: Whereas, I agree with you about the situation, what most of here are talking about is how best to deal with the problem. Bombs certainly won't help those kids, should this actually be a reality, which is suspect with the vast amou8nts of misinformation that has allready been thrown at the world. Like I've said over and over, the US has not come anywhere close to exhausting diplomatic options. Quite the contrary. The Saudi Prop9osal was met with nothing more than contempt by the Bush administration. I might add that the framework of that proposal was echoed in a proposal presented by Senator Mitchell so it isn't some off the wall diplomatic trial baloon. There are so many folk who are confusing the anit-war movement ads pro-Saddam. This is a wrong as wrong can be. Saddam is a bad man. A very bad man. And there are many other bad men in power that a civilized world would do better if they weren't. Even the director of the CIA had warned the an attack of Iraq is more likely to create a new generation of "bad men". Hmmmmm? Peace, my friend, and may out children grow in a world were it is possible and probable that ey may become old men.. Bobert |
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15 Feb 03 - 11:47 AM (#890990) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: GUEST,Old Guy Where did the notion of bombing Iraq come from? I heard Donahue on TV saying "Do we need to drop incendiary bombs on old people and children when they are sleeping?" Does anybody here actually believe that the people in charge of this pending war are going to bomb the civilian population of Iraq? There are things like the E-bomb that simply overloads electronics within a certain radius and renders them inoperable. They will be used on any military site to shut down their command and control. Maybe it might blow out some pacemakers if there is such a thing in Iraq. There are bombs that drop long carbon filaments on power stations to short down the electric supply. It might hurt someone that is on life support if there is anyone in Baghdad that can afford such a thing. Maybe the food in their refrigerator will spoil. Do they have refrigerators? Is there any food in them to spoil? Water and sewage treatment plants are not a strategic military target so they will not be targeted. The American tacticians want to leave the infrastructure in place because if bridges and such are destroyed it will be the task of the US to rebuild them. The only real threat to the civilians of Baghdad it the way Saddam will use them as human shields in a war. Or that they might be a victim of Saddam's chemical, biological or nuclear weapons that he claims he does not have. He is in effect holding his own people hostage so we leave will be afraid to attack and leave him alone. Does anyone here truly believe that he does not have these weapons? I think we all believe he does but we just don't want to force the issue with a war. If Saddam Hussein is not removed we will be leaving the situation to be inherited by or children and grand children. The danger will only get worse and it will require more drastic means to remove the son of Saddam Hussein. The countries bordering Iraq want Saddam out because he is a growing threat to everybody in the region. How come no one was protesting the war to oust Slobodan Milosevic and free Kosovo? Where were the mass civilian casualties in that war? Go to Yugoslavia and ask the people if they want Slobodan back. This war is almost identical to the Iraq war except people are more afraid of Saddam. The only way to stand up to a bully is to show your strength and lack of fear. Has any dictator been deposed diplomatically? Old Guy |
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15 Feb 03 - 12:48 PM (#891011) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: 12-stringer GUEST, OLD GUY, wrote: Where did the notion of bombing Iraq come from? I heard Donahue on TV saying "Do we need to drop incendiary bombs on old people and children when they are sleeping?" Does anybody here actually believe that the people in charge of this pending war are going to bomb the civilian population of Iraq? 12-stringer says: How far up your ass do you *have* your head, Old Guy? |
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15 Feb 03 - 01:01 PM (#891020) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Thomas the Rhymer Ditto. |
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15 Feb 03 - 02:19 PM (#891061) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Alice Back to my comment about Congress - didn't we learn anything from Viet Nam? There seems to be no debate going on in Congress about this and only a few, like Senator Byrd last year, seem to be making any comments. It is as if the congressional herd of lemmings are mute. This is in part what Byrd said in October, 2002. Senate Remarks: Rush to War Ignores U.S. Constitution The resolution before us today is not only a product of haste; it is also a product of presidential hubris. This resolution is breathtaking in its scope. It redefines the nature of defense, and reinterprets the Constitution to suit the will of the Executive Branch. It would give the President blanket authority to launch a unilateral preemptive attack on a sovereign nation that is perceived to be a threat to the United States. This is an unprecedented and unfounded interpretation of the President's authority under the Constitution, not to mention the fact that it stands the charter of the United Nations on its head. Representative Abraham Lincoln, in a letter to William H. Herndon, stated: "Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose - - and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after you have given him so much as you propose. If, to-day, he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada, to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him, 'I see no probability of the British invading us' but he will say to you 'be silent; I see it, if you don't.' "The provision of the Constitution giving the war-making power to Congress, was dictated, as I understand it, by the following reasons. Kings had always been involving and impoverishing their people in wars, pretending generally, if not always, that the good of the people was the object. This, our Convention understood to be the most oppressive of all Kingly oppressions; and they resolved to so frame the Constitution that no one man should hold the power of bringing this oppression upon us. But your view destroys the whole matter, and places our President where kings have always stood." Click here |
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15 Feb 03 - 02:27 PM (#891065) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: GUEST,Old Guy I can answer your question. I don't have my head up my ass at all. It is physically impossible, at least for me and I am not offended. There probably have been several people in Baghdad that could have their head up their ass because it had been reoved. Is to let that continue to let that happen is better than war?. Can you answer any of the questions I have posted with out making some sort of emotional remark? What is the plan of the anti war protesters for the future? Old Guy |
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15 Feb 03 - 02:34 PM (#891071) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Alice Old Guy, this is one of those ethical questions like, do you save the child on the train track and kill everyone on the train? Obviously Saddam and his equally sadistic and rapacious son are terrible. What to do... COWBOY FIREMAN (TRUSTY LARIAT) (Harry A. McClintock) Through the high Sierra Mountains Came an S P passenger train The hoboes tried to ride her But found 'twas all in vain The conductor he took the tickets And he counted every soul; The engineer looked straight ahead And the fireman shoveled coal. Now, the fireman was a cowboy But do not think that strange He could make more money shoveling coal Than riding on the range So though he was a fireman And though he had to sweat He still remained a western guy And he kept his lariat The train was way behind time When suddenly ahead A little child strolled on the track And filled them all with dread Her golden hair in ringlets Was streamin' down her back. And she little knew of her danger grave As she strolled along the track "My gosh" the hog head shouted As he slammed on all the brakes "I'll never stop this DP train I ain't got what it takes" "O Heaven help that wee tot!" He cried in accents wild. "Can nothing stop this DP train And save the little child?" Up sprang that cowboy fireman And a gallant lad was he "Now I will save that baby If I wreck the whole DP" He climbed upon the running board With tears his eyes were wet And in his hand, our hero brave Bore his trusty lariat He dropped his loop around a pole That stood beside the track And tied the other end of it Around the big smokestack He jerked the train right off the rails And caused an awful wreck And our hero lay there in a ditch With the engine on his neck Oh we will all remember That forty-fifth of May For there were many gallant hearts All filled with fear that day They buried that poor fireman Where the prairie wind blows wild He killed two hundred passengers But, Thank God, He saved the child Recorded by Sam Hinton @train @death @work filename[ COWFIRE TUNE FILE: COWFIRE CLICK TO PLAY SOF |
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15 Feb 03 - 03:02 PM (#891089) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Bobert Old Guy asks: "What is the plan of the antiwar protestors for the future." Feb 26th: "Virtual Demonstration" with letters, email and faxes to clog up the offices of the representatives and administration. And then... And then... Until we stop the war mongers... Until we carry mnaking further down the road toward being civilized... Thats what! Peace Bobert |
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15 Feb 03 - 05:34 PM (#891167) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: DougR February 26 sounds like a doozy, Bobert. I don't think I have heard of anything so stupid in a long time. Suppose on that very day the Congress agrees to stop any further discussion of a war with Iraq. They won't be able to communicate it to anybody! Yeah, that's real smart. DougR |
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15 Feb 03 - 07:20 PM (#891249) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: McGrath of Harlow "What is the plan of the antiwar protesters for the future." That is contingent on what occurs in the world. If the war gets jump started, you can guarantee there will be people on the streets that same day in just about every city in the world protesting. In these Internet Days it's a lot easier to keep tabs on that kind of thing. But that's drift - we've got other threads about the demonstrations where that kind of question and answer would be more at home. Anyway, here is a link to the text of the Blix report. And here is the same for his colleague Mohammed el-Baradei One thing in Blix's report that struck me at the time was this passage: "Another matter - and one of great significance - is that many proscribed weapons and items are not accounted for. To take an example, a document, which Iraq provided, suggested to us that some 1,000 tonnes of chemical agent were "unaccounted for". One must not jump to the conclusion that they exist. However, that possibility is also not excluded. If they exist, they should be presented for destruction. If they do not exist, credible evidence to that effect should be presented." And I like that sentence "One must not jump to the conclusion that they exist." Because that is obviously true - and yet it is very apparent that the USAK governments have done precisely that, and have done their best, largely successfully, to manipulate others into doing the same. Obviously, as Blix says, you need evidence before you believe what Saddam ways, even more so than you would need evidence to believe the word of a man like Bush - but announcing to the multitude that you know the truth in advance is a conman's trick. Political legerdemain - but this is too deadly a matter to play games like that. As it is we're being presented with a Catch 22 situation - we know they've got the stuff, so if the inspectors don't find it, that proves Saddam has hidden it, and that's a material breach. But as Blix said "One must not jump to the conclusion that they exist." So he's insisting on seeing the evidence, and if he's given the chance, he'll be back to report whether this stands up or not, and able to say whether it actually does look as if these weapons of mass destruction do in fact now exist at all. |
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15 Feb 03 - 08:14 PM (#891274) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Alice I think the question Old Guy is getting at is what would the protestors do to resolve the problem of Saddam and his tyrrany? Not what future protests are planned but what would protestors offer as a solution in Iraq. I think it is a good question to ask. The sticky problem is that no matter how civilized the rest of the world acts, Saddam is still a ruthless and dangerous dictator. I hope if South Africa can lead Iraq in example of disarmament then Saddam can be de-fused. The problem still remains of his regime being one that uses execution and torture on its citizens, but if you look at documentation of Amnesty International, there are many countries that use execution of innocents and torture. www.amnesty.org I think it is important for peace marchers to not just protest against war, but to support actions that protect human rights everywhere, to not pick and choose focus on the headline locations, but to be active in support of the human rights of all people. For those supporting a military action against Saddam now, my question is, why there and not in the other countries where people are oppressed and suffering? I think one of the callers into the BBC/NPR call in show that is linked in the other thread made a good point, that the solution may better be to have the UN lifting the sanctions and making sure, with a corps of helpers in the country, to uplift the Iraqi people. Then they themselves could gain strength and engage in support that would return control of their own country again. The Iraqis need more power over changing their future rather than have an outside country invade. |
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15 Feb 03 - 10:03 PM (#891325) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: GUEST He also said that they had found evidence of 328 rocket boosters illegaly imported despite UN regulations forbidding such imports. These rockets can boost range and payload in excess of the legitimate defence range (150km) imposed by UN sanctions. Iraq has repeatedly lied about and hidden all evidence of its banned weapons for over 12 years. Yeah lets wait for more inspections. In the mean time dont blame Bush or Blair if WW3 breaks out and innocents die because you people fails to stop Iraq and other militant nations from seeing the UN is a failure and a farce. Not only that, but weakness and the inability to deal effectively will assure that in future all UN sanctions will be laughed at and ignored. |
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15 Feb 03 - 10:26 PM (#891333) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Frankham Old Guy, What protestors plan to do is a fair question. I think the biggest unified action is to avoid a pre-emptive strike. The next plan would be to allow the inspections to work because they ARE working. The more the spotlight is on Saddam, the better chances are that we can restrain him. Let the inspections go on as long as possible and convey the information received to the UN and the rest of the world. The analogy to Hitler in WWII doesn't work because no one really appreciated the damage that Hitler was about to do. Today, I don't think there's one country that doesn't recognize Saddam as being a vicious dictator. No one country is actively supporting him. We can "smoke him out" not with destroying Iraq but by conveying his iniquity to the rest of the world. At some point, the UN would have to step in. But this will not be done unless the United States allows the UN to do it's job. And part of the job is allowing the inspections to continue. Frank Hamilton |
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15 Feb 03 - 11:50 PM (#891385) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: GUEST Inspections? for how fucking long? One missile in Israel, and the western world is going to be at war in the middle east. Not to mention the economy is going to be totally fucked. NATO is split by France Germany and Belgium; three countries that benefit both in power and economy from the split(the Euro has artificially risen in value 30% against the US dollar since 9-11) France the great turncoat country, will change its politics and sides at the drop of a hat; and who has been at war in Chad and three other African countries (great peacefull nation that it is) Yeah, there is a similarity with Hitler, and you people will have to learn it the hard way again. |
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16 Feb 03 - 09:16 AM (#891444) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: GUEST,Old Guy Now I see some objectivity in this discussion. Are we complaining or looking for a lasting solution? As I asked before, does any body here really believe the WMDs do not exist in Iraq? If they believe they do not exist, will they guarantee they do not exist? My point is that the war protestors say that the plans of the administration are absolutely wrong but they don't propose a long range plan to take its place. What will result from more inspections? If the WMDs are found can we attack then or will protestors still protest and say that we should get rid of them and leave Saddam in power? Will we inspect for 10 years while Saddam moves the stuff around and completes his mission? Then he will be in the position of the North Koreans. Other countries like Iran will follow the same path and no part of the world will be safe from nuclear, chemical or biological attack. The only way I see inspections finding the WMDs is to send 5 inspectors for every minder. I heard that Saddam has a department of 2,000 men solely to "deal" with the inspectors and thwart their efforts. They even pose as students, workers and scientists with all the right answers. Hopefully the U2 planes will find something. Hopefully the U2s have night vision so they can see what happens at night. I heard last night that there are ongoing battles in northern Iraq already. Let's hope that the rebels there get the support they need to overthrow Saddam. Remember he is of a sect that is a very small minority in Iraq. The northern and southern parts of Iraq are two other sects of Muslims that vastly outnumber the ruling sect. I also saw a news segment about the financial market in Kuwait. Their stock market hit a new high in January. They are speculation on new trade with Iran, The price of land on the Iraq border is shooting up. It looks like the people in Kuwait want the war. I have heard similar about other neighboring countries but I am not too sure about Syria. Old Guy |
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16 Feb 03 - 09:28 AM (#891453) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: KarlMarx The damn war has never ended for the people of Iraq. For all of Saddam Hussein's brutality, the UN continues to punish the people of that country with sanctions, enforced by repeated air raids over Basra and other cities (ostensibly to knock out anti-aircraft positions), and where American and British bombs continually go astray, and land in residential areas, killing more civilians. The same civilians who suffer because the water treatment plants were intentionally destroyed in the 1991 war . . . |
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16 Feb 03 - 10:29 AM (#891491) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Frankham Hi Old Guy, Now I see some objectivity in this discussion. Are we complaining or looking for a lasting solution? I think there is a built-in solution. I don't agree that the inspections should cease. As I asked before, does any body here really believe the WMDs do not exist in Iraq? If they believe they do not exist, will they guarantee they do not exist? The reason I don't think that it matters if they do or don't is that Iraq doesn't have the capability of doing the damage that the adminstration says it does. The US was wrong about the military capability of the former USSR and it's wrong, here. It they do exist, it is ineffectual. My point is that the war protestors say that the plans of the administration are absolutely wrong but they don't propose a long range plan to take its place. Not true. The inspections have worked and will continue to do so as long as we don't abort the process. Some hot heads may be impatient but where is the long term solution being offered by the adminstration? In fact, the scenario seems crazy. it is to bomb Iraq into submission and establish democracy there through occupation of a military dictatorship. Or even worse, drain it of oil and forget about it the way the US is now doing in Afghanistan. Does anyone see democracy happening in Afghanistan? What will result from more inspections? The world community will see what is happening and decide to take action as a unified body. If we don't have this, we may as well kiss democracy or any semblance of it goodbye because it will give licence for India to attack Pakistan, the Koreas to go at it again, or any other country who feels a "moral" obligation to have a pre-emptive strike. If the WMDs are found can we attack then or will protestors still protest and say that we should get rid of them and leave Saddam in power? If war missiles are found, then it should be evaluated as to what good they really would do. Waging war is an expensive proposition and few countries have the wherewithall to do it successfully. Germany was able to mobilize it's economy under Hitler and there was not much opposition by the US or the European community because it was not known what Hitler was doing. In fact, I don't believe that the US officially declared war on Germany until Hitler had done considerable damage. Here, the situation is different. Iraq has an impoverished economy and it is not in their best interest to take on a Goliath. Saddam is a brutal dicatator but probably not as crazy as some hot heads think he is. In fact, he may be playing his political advantage with the rest of the Muslim world by painting the US as a dictatorship. This would be substantiated in the minds of many in the Muslim world community if the US conducted a pre-emptive strike. Will we inspect for 10 years while Saddam moves the stuff around and completes his mission? Saddam does not have the capability. Lets inspect for as long as we need to keep his agression at bay. It has worked and can continue to work. Then he will be in the position of the North Koreans. Other countries like Iran will follow the same path and no part of the world will be safe from nuclear, chemical or biological attack. No country in the world is in fact safe from nuclear, chemical or biological attack at the present time as we have witnessed on 9/11. Our safety will depend upon the strength of the UN and the rest of the world to unify. If this adminstration strikes Iraq, the risk grows higher that we will alienate a large segment of the world population and thus create furthur instabilty here in the US. It's a hazardous risk that has no constructive outcome. The only way I see inspections finding the WMDs is to send 5 inspectors for every minder. I heard that Saddam has a department of 2,000 men solely to "deal" with the inspectors and thwart their efforts. They even pose as students, workers and scientists with all the right answers. Who really knows this? Do you really trust this information? Even so, who cares as long as Saddam is contained? Hopefully the U2 planes will find something. Hopefully the U2s have night vision so they can see what happens at night. They may or may not. We won't really know if the information we get is "classified". I think it comes down to whether not one has faith in this adminstration to do constructive work here. I don't. I heard last night that there are ongoing battles in northern Iraq already. Let's hope that the rebels there get the support they need to overthrow Saddam. Remember he is of a sect that is a very small minority in Iraq. The Sunni sect has many followers but we don't really know how many because no one has really paid attention to this. The northern and southern parts of Iraq are two other sects of Muslims that vastly outnumber the ruling sect. The Shi'ites. But you can't obliterate a religious sect by blowing them away. (Sunnis). They can make converts faster than you can blink an eye. I also saw a news segment about the financial market in Kuwait. Their stock market hit a new high in January. They are speculation on new trade with Iran, The price of land on the Iraq border is shooting up. It looks like the people in Kuwait want the war. I have heard similar about other neighboring countries but I am not too sure about Syria. There is a possibility that there are factions who have financed Al Quaeda within Kuwait as well. If the US goes it alone, it might also being playing into the hands of questionable allies...the sheiks who can turn our foolishness into their profit. Remember, democracy is a concept that does not exist in Saudi Arabia. Syria is governed by Assad, a well-known dictator. Then there is still Lybia. What the US is doing by a pre-emptive strike is lighting a match to a powder keg. Frank Hamilton |
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16 Feb 03 - 10:53 AM (#891512) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: KarlMarx I just read the article (belatedly) in Le Monde concerning the exchange in the Security Council between the French and Russian foreign ministers and Colin Powell, one of Boy George's token lap dogs. Interesting perspective. If you only listen to or read the swill that emanates from the American media, France is the problem. It's interesting to see how Europeans, on the other hand, see us as the issue of concern. I find it fascinating that most of the jokers in the White House, and many of those morons who happily voted for them, never served in any military branch in a theater of war. They're all gung-ho, though, to go off and fire off their latest smart weapons, and unleash their brainwashed children with their big guns on half-starved Iraqis. The Europeans, however, know full well the consequences of wars, unlike most Americans. The French and Russians suffered through two horrible world wars, and thus have more than earned the right to speak out against Boy George's messianic crusades . . . |
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16 Feb 03 - 12:12 PM (#891557) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Bobert Old Goy: Apparently yopu have not read this entire thread or you would have read my posts on the Saudi Plan (Mitchell Plan) that Bush couldn't be *bothered* with that created a framework for a negotiated Middle East peace. Plus, I'll guarentee ya. that if you give me 20% of the war budget, a team of religious leaders, psychologists, advertising folk and men of peace that we'd have this thing straighted out in no time with no or very little loss of life. The problem is that we wouldn't get to blow up a lot of stuff that will need to be replaced by the arms contrators and we will have to buy Iraq's oil rather than steal it. And ya might want to go back and review my "Department of Peace" thread... Bobert |
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16 Feb 03 - 12:15 PM (#891562) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Bobert Old Guy: Sorry. Forgot where I was. Check out the "Should we go to war in Iraq" thread. Bobert |
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16 Feb 03 - 12:23 PM (#891567) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: KarlMarx Bobert: You are so right. And you've hit the nail on the head elsewhere. The reason why the majority of former Warsaw Pact countries are supporting Boy George's drive to war is because, under NATO rules, any new nation entering that alliance must upgrade its weapons systems within a certain number of years after admittance - which means, all the American companies who churn out their own weapons of mass destruction will be rolling in even more dough than they already are . . . |
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16 Feb 03 - 01:04 PM (#891590) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: DougR Old Guy: You pose some interesting questions. Most of the replies you receive will be similar to the ones supplied by Frank, who believes the inspection process is "working." Frank: please explain why you believe the inspection process is working? Both chief weapons inspectors in their testimony before the Security Council confirmed that it is NOT! They just asked for more time so that Saddam could continue the cat and mouse game BUT with MORE inspectors to deceive. DougR |
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16 Feb 03 - 01:11 PM (#891595) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: KarlMarx Why does the issue have to be distilled down to a choice between "inspections" and all-out war (i.e., "forceable disarmament" and "regime change")? Neither option will work. But the simpletons in the White House have posited the debate in those terms, and thus, here we are, with a Hobson's Choice . . . |
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16 Feb 03 - 01:28 PM (#891605) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Alice From heritage.org, "Russia has $7 billion worth of oil leases and loans tied up in Iraq and recently unveiled a 10-year trade deal worth $60 billion. Moscow is owed at least $10 billion in unpaid debts by the Iraqi regime. Its cooperation depends on it being allowed to pursue these claims with a post-war government. France also has extensive trade interests in Iraq." Other countries are already in line with leases for Iraqi oil. I don't think oil is the Bush reason. I think it is a mixture of his religious zeal and hair-trigger anger that his power is being frustrated, that he was the leader when we were attacked on September 11, so now he is lashing back at anything (Iraq) that he thinks makes us vulnerable. In the process, he is making us even more vulnerable to terrorism and continuing the recruitment of more terrorists. The more the US looks like we are on a "crusade", a term unfortunately used by Bush at first, the more we feed the cycle of violence. I am in support of human rights in all parts of the world. I do think Iraq's Saddam is dangerous. I think countries who are supportive of human rights should work toward relief of the Iraqi people, but the boomerang effect on us will be terrible if we make a military strike before all other courses of action are exhausted. Bush's motivations are not rational, they are emotional. He wants to be the cowboy who rescues the little girl on the tracks. Ethical dilemmas are difficult. He's not thinking of the ramifications of being the "good guy" riding in to take out the "bad guy", the future hatred and terrorism it would create and the carnage left in his wake. |
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16 Feb 03 - 01:44 PM (#891621) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: KarlMarx "I don't think oil is the Bush reason." American oil companies, during the 90s, continually lobbied to have the sanctions on Iraq lifted. But, of course, those same American companies will have an enormous windfall once they get their grubby little hands on the oil resources, particularly the still-to-be fully exploited fields near Kirkuk, in the Kurdish region of Iraq. As reported in The Guardian, Iraq - post-Saddam Hussein, of course - could be producing 8 million barrels a day. Do the math: on the outset, at $30 a barrel, that's $87.6 billion a year. Eventually, with the huge glut of oil on the world market, the price per barrel will drop precipitously, thus pulling the rug out from underneath OPEC, and consequently hurting nations such as Russia, Venezuela, Mexico, Chad and others, who depend upon oil revenues to build their infrastructures. Then we will have the recipe for a real world war . . . |
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16 Feb 03 - 02:31 PM (#891662) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: McGrath of Harlow I just read the article (belatedly) in Le Monde concerning the exchange in the Security Council between the French and Russian foreign ministers and Colin Powell. The thing is, we don't need any more to rely on intermediaries in the press to give us this kind of thing. The Internet gives us direct access to the texts, and in this case, if we've a decent connection we can go to the BBC website and see and here the whole thing anytime, it's archived. I say "the BBC", because that's the one I know. It may be for all I know that the broadcasters in the USA and elsewhere provide the same free service on things like that. But anyway it's only a click away, wherever you live. And if you actually listen to what Blix said, and maybe read it, it seems very clear that he isn't talking about an endless series of inspections (as opposed to ongoing monitoring). He's saying that he has had a significantly greater degree of cooperation over the past few weeks, and that the possibility has opened up of being able to get answers to the vital questions. Now it may be, as sceptics have said all along, that agreeing to the whole business of inspections was a totally cynical operation, designed to fill in time until the invasion force was ready to move. In that case it is easy to see why there should be anger at people who wish to treat the process as a serious attempt to get the true facts about the extent the Iraqis have usable weapons of mass destruction, and to ensure that they do not. But most people in most countries do see it as a serious attempt, and want to see it given a fair chance. If it is true that March 1st is pencilled Vito Bush and Blair's diary saying "invade Iraq" the idea that the work of the inspection team cannot be completed by that date must be very annoying. But why the hurry? Military forces can be stood down just as quickly as they can be mobilised, and then re-mobilised if necessary. That kind of thing is just a matter of money, when you get down to it. But once the war is done you can't undo it, and bring the dead back to life. And all this hysteria at the very idea that France might veto a motion that the USA backs. How many motions have the Americans vetoed that would have passed otherwise? I think the total just in relation to Israel and Palestine is 34 by now. It's so routine it doesn't even get in the headlines. |
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16 Feb 03 - 02:45 PM (#891670) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: KarlMarx "I say 'the BBC', because that's the one I know." You, obviously, go beyond what's being spun by the American media conglomerates. A kindred spirit! There are tons of other resources, as you suggested, out there in print and on the web, as well. Not to brag, but my parents said that I at least made some modest return on my college education: I can read the left-wing papers coming out of Mexico, Germany and France. Anyway, here's an interesting excerpt by Jean-David Levitte, the French Ambassador to the Court of Boy George: "Reading the papers from both sides of the Atlantic, I sometimes wonder whether the impending war is not between France and the United States. I would like to strongly reaffirm what, in the heart of the French people, is a longstanding reality: the friendship between France and America began in the early days of your fight for independence and has endured throughout the centuries. America rescued my country twice in the last century--something we will never forget. Today we stand side by side in many parts of the world, including Afghanistan. France is the largest contributor of troops to NATO operations. Our friendship is a treasure, and it must be maintained, protected, enhanced. However, the polls are clear: 78 percent of French people oppose a military intervention in Iraq. Polls are similar in most other countries, including in Eastern Europe. European governments may be divided over the use of force in Iraq, but public opinion is united . . ." Hmm . . . |
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16 Feb 03 - 04:10 PM (#891735) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: GUEST,Oldguy Frank Hamilton sounds like a reasonable person. I don't think dictators can be reasoned with. These inspections are a cat and mouse game. We know he has the stuff but we are too PC or afraid to use force to disarm him. For all of the people claiming it is about Iraq s oil, why didn't we seize Kuwait's oil? We put out the fires in 700 oil wells that Saddam torched before their army was forced to retreat. Then we turned them back over to Kuwait. Now Iraq has 1500 oil wells that we will likely have to put fires out. Saddam's is planning to blow the bridges, dams, power plants, water plants etc and say it is our fault. How can any one reason with a person like that? We liberated the people of Kuwait from Saddam Huissein. We can do the same for the people of Iraq. I think if the inspections do not lead to a resolution of war by the time the forces are ready to go, they should go. After the WMD's are found we will have the justification for having done so. The entire administration is staking their future on this and I wish them good luck. Perhaps by this time next year the people of Iraq will be free to bitch about the government we can without fear. Old Guy |
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16 Feb 03 - 04:15 PM (#891737) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Bobert Old Guy. No "boogie man" to demonize and Kuwait was "liberated" for geographic and stategic purposes... Bobert |
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16 Feb 03 - 04:20 PM (#891739) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: KarlMarx Old Man states: "We liberated the people of Kuwait from Saddam Hussein. We can do the same for the people of Iraq." Like we liberated the people of the rural hamlets in South Vietnam from the terrorist Viet Cong, by burning their homes to the ground . . . ? Like we spread the gospel of Christianity and Democracy to the oppressed people of Hanoi, as we dropped hundreds of thousands of tons of bombs on them . . . ? Yeah, I'm sure the Iraqis need that type of liberation . . . |
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16 Feb 03 - 04:26 PM (#891745) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: GUEST,Oldguy Gojira: Yes, America and France have a lot more in common than french frys (in high school I was told that in France they are called American frys). France helped us to be liberated from England. Our monetary system is of French design. Our statue of Liberty is a gift from France. Liberty must be pretty important to French people. America helped to liberate France from Germany twice (I will admit that I don't know a lot about the WW1 but my impression is that it was similar to WW2). Let's stand together to Liberate the people of Iraq instead of bickering. Old Guy |
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16 Feb 03 - 04:30 PM (#891748) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Bobert No thanks, OG, But I wouldn't mind seeing the world liberated from the Bush administartion. They certainly have done more than their part in destabilizing it, that's fir sure... Bobert |
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16 Feb 03 - 04:44 PM (#891753) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: McGrath of Harlow I can't see why gratitude towards America should be a reason for helping it to do something which you believe will be disastrous for America as well as for the rest of the world. That would be a strange kind of gratitude. You try to save your friends from making mistakes if you can. The only reason I can imagine for this anger about France would be if they really thought that the French actually believed that a preemptive war against Iraq at this time would be a good idea, but that they'd interrupted the process out of sheer malice. The thing is, the French don't believe that. Hardly anybody does anywhere, outside the White House and Tiny Blair's study. |
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16 Feb 03 - 04:45 PM (#891754) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: KarlMarx Bickering is another gift that the French gave America. The Anglo-Saxon Federalists did not brook dissent; it was the pro-French Jeffersonians that gave the American political system a much needed enema, where dissent becomes the highest form of patriotism. World War One was, not to be too argumentative, nothing like its sequel. Both were horrendous, but "The Great War" in its own way. My great uncle Herbert was gassed during a battle between the AEF and the Germans in France, in 1918. He was always a pacifist after that - I guess having to sleep sitting up does that to you. He always believed that people should solve their problems in a peaceful manner. My father served in the Marine Corps in World War Two. Totally disgusted by the appalling spectacle of the Vietnam War, he left specific instructions to not allow the American flag to be draped over his coffin, as was his privilege - either way you look at it - earned by his service to his country. They were both right: World War One led to a second global war, and we haven't known peace since 1945 . . . |
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16 Feb 03 - 05:04 PM (#891761) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Alice My uncle Pete Flynn was gassed in WWI. I had other relatives in WWII. My brother was a Green Beret in Viet Nam. Although the US leaders say they are thinking of the consequences, I still am not convinced they are, and I think many who rememeber what war is like are not convinced. Many from the last Iraq war are still waiting to be treated right by their government. This is a statement from VETERANS AGAINST THE IRAQ WAR http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php Veterans Against The Iraq War is a coalition of American veterans who oppose war with Iraq. Until and unless the current U.S. Administration provides evidence which clearly demonstrates that Iraq or any other nation poses a clear, immediate danger to our country, we oppose all of the Administration's pre-emptive and unilateral military and diplomatic activities geared towards provoking or initiating a military conflict with Iraq. Furthermore, we cannot support any war that is initiated without a formal Declaration of War by Congress, as our Constitution requires. Although we detest the dictatorial policies of Saddam Hussein and sympathize with the tragic plight of the Iraqi people, we oppose unilateral and pre-emptive U.S. military intervention on the grounds that it would establish a dangerous precedent in the conduct of international affairs, that it could easily lead to an increase of violent regional instability and the spread of a much wider conflict, that it would place needless and unacceptable financial burdens on the American people, that it would further divert us from addressing critical domestic priorities, and that it would distract us from our stated goal of destroying international terrorists and their lairs. Furthermore, Veterans Against The Iraq War does not believe the American military can or should be used as the police-force of the world by any Administration, Republican or Democrat. Consequently, we believe that the lives and well-being of our nation's soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines should not be squandered or sacrificed for causes other than the direct defense of our people and our nation. Finally, we believe that a pre-emptive and unilateral US military attack on Iraq would be illegal, unnecessary, counterproductive and present a truly dire threat to our vital international interests and basic national security. As military veterans, we have a unique understanding of war and know the many hidden truths that lie behind easy theories and promises, as well as behind the tragic consequences that even victory brings. We therefore call on all like-minded American veterans to join and support VAIW in its efforts to avert a national tragedy and an international calamity before it begins. |
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16 Feb 03 - 05:14 PM (#891770) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: KarlMarx Thanks, Alice. It was always a continuing source of irritation to my dad that people who never served in a time of war seemed to be the ones who were the most vocal in their calls to start them. Of course, Boy George was too busy sniffing coke, when he should have been fulfilling his contract with the Air National Guard that his father so obligingly obtained for him . . . |
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25 Feb 03 - 08:01 AM (#898158) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: GUEST,Oldguy What is Dr. Blix saying now? Are inspections getting the job done? Old Guy |
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26 Feb 03 - 12:07 AM (#898860) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: Boab Well---the inspectors haven't murdered any kids yet---or given the WMD makers in our enlightened economies any reason for increasing the output of the tools of slaughter----- |
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26 Feb 03 - 02:28 AM (#898897) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: DougR Old Guy: I gather from reports I have seen on TV that Mr. Blix is a bit frustrated. I can't imagine why. DougR |
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01 Mar 03 - 12:22 AM (#900890) Subject: RE: BS: Listening to Dr. Blix report... From: GUEST,Oldguy Doug: You haven't heard that the media is in on this bloodthirsty oil grab? You should only pay attention to the anti-war posts here and what is on the signs carried by the anti-war protestors. Old Guy |