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27 Feb 03 - 02:58 PM (#899890) Subject: Info Req. Dublin Term From: Seamus Kennedy Maybe some Dublin 'Catters can help with this. What is the proper spelling, precise meaning and origin of 'Segocia" generally used to mean "old friend," "buddy," or '"pal"? I've seen it spelled "Segosha." Has it been used in any Dublin songs that you know of? Thanks for any help. Seamus |
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28 Feb 03 - 01:10 AM (#900263) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: Seamus Kennedy Refresh |
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28 Feb 03 - 01:11 AM (#900265) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: Seamus Kennedy Usually prefaced with the words "me oul' "? Any takers? Thanks Seamus |
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28 Feb 03 - 04:17 AM (#900335) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Let me check. Offhand, I can't think of an occurrence in a song. As far as performer's use is concerned, I associate the term with the actor Noel Purcell and some other, old generation Dublin comedians. Wonder if O'Muirithe glossed it? I'll have a look Regards |
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28 Feb 03 - 04:19 AM (#900336) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Martin Ryan BTW, I would spell it "segotia" - but I've no idea why! Regards |
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28 Feb 03 - 04:41 AM (#900344) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Usage is almost invariably "me aul' segotia!" , basically as a slightly mocking term of endearment, used exclamatorially. For example, at the end of a few sentences of argurmant or discussion: ....So there ye are, me aul segotia!" ...... as a clincher! Equivalent to some uses of "mate", "buddy" etc. - but not all. Regards |
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28 Feb 03 - 05:02 AM (#900354) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: Declan Me auld segotia Martin has said it already. I've no idea where the phrase came from. I've often heard the term used, but not so often lately. Off hand I can't think of any Gaelic word or phrase that it might be derived from. The phrase is part of what was Dublin in the rare auld times. |
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28 Feb 03 - 11:33 AM (#900393) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Martin is right. It could be a coining that has no valid etymology. Equally, as part of the oral tradition, there may be no valid spelling. Irish people like playing with words (now there's an earth-shattering revelation for you), including making up nonce-words. Malapropisms are also a characteristic of Dublin speech from the rare oul' times, so the chances are that it was either a conscious coining or a mistaken transmogrification of a word like "sagacious". |
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28 Feb 03 - 03:44 PM (#900609) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: Seamus Kennedy T'anks, lads. Yer blood's worth bottlin'. Seamus |
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28 Feb 03 - 04:57 PM (#900650) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: Brían I have a Dictionary of Hiberno-English that although admits its originn is obscure, says it might possibly be a corruption of seo dhuit, or "There you are", a very common expression, although, "There y'are me aul sagotia" sounds redundant in that context. Brían |
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28 Feb 03 - 06:47 PM (#900715) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,sorefingers Segotias? Probably Spanish. |
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01 Mar 03 - 04:24 AM (#900961) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,JTT segotia [n., lr. seu dhuit-se, this [is] for you, is not gecepted] as in old segotia [. phr.] Close friend (male usage). 1977 Myles na gCopaleen, The Hair of the Dogma: 'a side door [in the Scotch House]... through which shall be admitted all persons being... Old Segotias of the said Myles na Gopaleen'. 1987 Vincent Caprani, Vulgar Verse & Variations, Rowdy Rhymes & Rc-im-itations, 'Wayzgoose'; "Faire dues [q.v.] to all the members what don't forget old mates;/ But I have one final question, if you'll bear with me awhile..." "Oh, fire away, sagosha [sic]," he answered with a smile. 1995 Aidan Higgins, Donkey's Years: "Ah, cummere to me now me old segoshia [sic]," Grogan coaxed me in the yard..." All from Slanguage, by Bernard Share, a dictionary of Irish slang now in its second edition. |
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01 Mar 03 - 12:13 PM (#901130) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: Seamus Kennedy Three different spellings, the same meaning. I've only ever heard it around Dublin, never up North or any where else in Ireland for that matter. Thanks, everyone. You've been very helpful. Seamus |
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01 Mar 03 - 12:56 PM (#901153) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: Big Mick Brendan Nolan, a Dublin man currently working out of Florida, calls his label "Old Sagousha" if I am not mistaken. Same thing? Mick |
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01 Mar 03 - 03:35 PM (#901236) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: belfast A search brought me to this site -Click here. It's something to do with the discovery of some old coins in Spain but I think the word "segotia" there is only a typo for "Segovia". And indeed I remember an aspiring guitarist in a Dublin pub being addressed as "Me oul' Segovia". I have only heard the word used by Dubs and only in a self-conscious, self-mocking kind of way - like Dubs pretending to be Dubs. |
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02 Mar 03 - 01:37 AM (#901510) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: Seamus Kennedy Actually, Mick I'm trying to get a standardized definition and spelling for Brendan. His label is "Segosha". and he'd never heard of the alternate spelling. That's how this whole thing got started. Seamus |
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02 Mar 03 - 03:58 AM (#901550) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,ossonflags I have only once seen the phrase in print and it was used as " me ou'l segotia". That was in the excellant play by Sean O'Casey "Juno and the Paycock" |
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02 Mar 03 - 06:43 AM (#901597) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: MartinRyan I've seen that "seo dhuit-se" sugestion alright. It sounds rather like a reverse etymology to me. I've never heard it as a toast in natieve-speaker Irish and know of no evidence that it was ever common enough to have been transferred into English. The strong Dublin link also makes it unlikely. I think its just one of life's little mysteries (As distinct from Leif's little ups an downs - an even more obscure Dublin in-joke!). Regards |
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02 Mar 03 - 10:28 AM (#901669) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: Peter K (Fionn) ossonflags, if you heard in Juno and the Paycock, it must have just crept in. I'm pretty sure it's not in the original script. Possible opportunities would be where Boyle calls Mrs Madigan "me oul' sport" and near the end where she calls him "me bucko." Based on nothing I can think of, I veer towards "segocia". I've certainly seen the word in print a few times, but this was not necessarily how it was spelt - I can't remember. Anyway, it has had a lively career independent of "segovia" and seems to pre-date that guy who had a guitar. (I think both Segovia and Segocia are place names in Spain.) There is actually a one-act play called "Me Oul' Segocia" but with so many spelling variables I've not managed to track it down, if indeed it ever made it into print. But as Joxer definitely did say (about something else): "It's a darlin' word, a daarlin' word." |
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03 Mar 03 - 06:25 AM (#902230) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Philippa I associate the term with "me oul' segocia" with Ronnie Drew, so I thought it must be in something he sings ...Since my recollection on this point is vague, I've been waiting for someone else to mention Ronnie Drew or the Dubliners, but no-one has |
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03 Mar 03 - 06:30 AM (#902231) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: Nigel Parsons Belfast: is it kind to refer to natives of that other city as 'Dubs' in a thread related to slang usage? I have only heard 'Dubs' used as slang for toilets! Nigel |
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03 Mar 03 - 06:52 AM (#902239) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: belfast It was certainly not my intention, on this occasion, to be unkind to the good citizens of our fair captial. It was from Dubliners that I picked up the word "Dubs" and I was not acquainted with it as a word for toilets. As for the citizens of Dublin I have much more vulgar terms of abuse when I want to insult them. Better not go down that road. |
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03 Mar 03 - 07:20 AM (#902245) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Mikey joe I known the term as a Cork term and have heard it quite a bit, although not commonly. It is mentioned in the Song "The Maid from Ballinure" as
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03 Mar 03 - 08:03 AM (#902261) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: Declan By coincidence I've just started reading a book called At Swim Two Boys by Jamie O Neill in which the term Segotia (spelled like that) is used. The character speculates as to where the name comes from, and wonders is there a flower of the same name - from what I can make out so far the character is actually not too bright and has already misused a number of big words, so I'd take this definition with a grain of salt. If there's any further enlightenment further on in the book (I'm only on Chapter 1) I'll let you know. As for Dubs being slang for toilets, I hadn't heard that one before, but we Dublin people often refer to ourselves as Dubs but also as The Jacks - which is definitely a slang word for toilets, so there seems to be a theme running here. Instinct tells me that Seo dhuit é is a red herring as a source for the word. The phrase litterally means "Here it is for you", which wouldn't make sense, and the pronunciation of the phrase as Segotia is a bit far fetched as well. |
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03 Mar 03 - 10:58 AM (#902369) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Brendan Nolan Howyis all It seems I am the one who is responsible for starting this discussion. My thanks to Seamus Kennedy that it has reached far and wide. My fear in the beginning was that I had been mis-spelling the word. I had heard it a lot growing up in Dublin but I had never seen it written down. I'm somewhat ashamed to say I've never read 'Juno and The Paycock' but that's another story. I've used the phrase and still use it as my label name. I spell it "Ould Sagosha" with a fada or accent on the 'o'. Since I could find no spelling at the time I thought it might be derived from Gaelic. In that case the spelling would have to have the 'sha' syllable at the end and an accent on the 'o'. As one of the writers pointed out, Dubliners love to have fun with the English language and at times satirize it. This is not just the domain of Dubs but of Irish people in general. I'm sure we could go at length for historical explanations for this. I'm glad to see that Micky Joe from Cork has found a song with 'sagosha' in it. Having said that, it could be that whoever wrote the song, and I'm assuming it was a Corkman, might just have wanted to spell it differently than the Dubliner. This would be understandable! In the end there seems to be no definitive way of spelling the word. In a way I'm glad and I appreciate all the input. |
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03 Mar 03 - 11:03 AM (#902376) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Mikey joe The song was written by a Corkman called Don Murphy, it can be found on the album Sex, Sca and Sedition. I'm not sure of the spelling as there are no lyrics on the tape Mj |
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03 Mar 03 - 02:45 PM (#902561) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Brendan Nolan Thanks Mikey Joe for clarifying that. Course it does muddy the waters a little more since there was no lyric sheet. Sounds like a good album though. The word sagacious has been put forward as a possible source for sagosha/segotia or whatever the spelling. Given the Dublin penchant for a play on words, how about this. The words 'precocious' and 'sagacious' are not too far apart in meaning. Could it possibly be that it is a combination of the two, making it 'sagocious' and hence 'Me Oul Sagocia' which would not necessarily be a term of endearment. I supppose it would depend on who was saying it and who they were saying it to. My father sometimes used a phrase 'don't be so stroctamocious.' It is not in any dictionary I have. To be honest we were never sure what the hell the word meant, but we knew what he meant. He was saying "don't be annoying me" or "don't be a pain in the neck", or a clip on the ear was surely on it's way. As Martin Ryan has pointed out the whole thing is probably just one of life's mysteries. Still, it makes for an interesting discussion. By the way, I have never heard 'Dubs' used in reference to toilets. 'The Jacks' yes, but the other one is a bit far-fetched. |
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03 Mar 03 - 03:49 PM (#902609) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: Big Mick Great to see you here, Brendan. Stick around. And while you are at it, stick your name in the search engine at the top of the page and you will see discussions of your "Far From Their Homes". As I told you when I saw you last in Milwaukee, or was it Conklin, anyway I believe it to be the finest song ever written about the coffin ships. I hate to pump you up so, but you have been a major influence on my music.....and you a Dub and all..........hahahaha. Hope you stick around. See you down the road. Mick from Michigan PS. I heard you met Seamus Kennedy in person. Did you shake hands? If so, check for your rings and watches, cause he is one quick little devil.........LOL. |
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04 Mar 03 - 08:24 AM (#903066) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Brendan Nolan Howya Mick Did not realize it was yourself. I did indeed meet Seamus and he is great performer with a wonderful sense of humour. Off the stage he is a gentleman and it was a pleasure to be in his company. He will be at Milwaukee this year and I'm sure he will knock their socks off. All the best, maybe see you in Michigan in May Brendan Nolan |
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04 Mar 03 - 04:48 PM (#903465) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: ard mhacha The late Eamonn Mac Thomais when compering the RTE programme " Hands", used "me ould Segocia" to refer to the old Dublin market traders. Ard Mhacha. |
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04 Jan 05 - 07:18 AM (#1370750) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: John MacKenzie The serial reading on Woman's Hour BBC Radio 4 is 'Letters of a Country Postman' by John B Keane, who was the father of Feargal Keane the BBC correspondant. The main character signs his letters 'From yer ould segocia' I wonder if it's a nonsense variation of sagacious, in the same way contagious is used in 'A Sailor Courted a Farmer's Daughter' to mean contiguous. Giok |
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04 Jan 05 - 09:17 AM (#1370844) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy here is a possible derivation, if it is from Irish it would have the spelling as in the first word 'Broad with Broad, Slender with Slender' remember seadhgosa, segosha, segasha add/view comments (0) // n. pleasure, joy, delight; 'Me ould segosha' < Ir. seaghais n. (genitive singular: seaghsa or seaghaise, cf. Ir. seaghaiseach, pleasant, joyful. 'Come over here to me, me old seadhgosa, it's been a long time since I've seen you'. This word has attracted many fanciful and improbable explanations (e.g, the Irish phrase 'Seo dhuit é' = Here, take it) because of its literary associations, e.g., it is used by James Joyce in F.W., 215.12: "Ah, but she was the queer old skeowsha anyhow, Anna Livia, trinkettoes". |
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04 Jan 05 - 11:59 AM (#1370970) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: Brían Well, that is an interesting explaination. Go raibh maith agat, a Liam. Brían |
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05 Jan 05 - 09:28 AM (#1371981) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,JTT Pleasure, joy or delight would certainly be the meaning as it's used in English - sounds like a likely deriivation ok. It was certainly used (and is, indeed) in my family, and "my old segotia" would be equivalent to "my old darling". |
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05 Jan 05 - 07:00 PM (#1372540) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: Noreen Sorry to only contribute to this thread with a correction, but John B. Keane from Listowel, Co. Kerry was Fergal's uncle, not his father, Giok. (I didn't know that until I heard the piece on Radio 4 as you did!) |
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12 Apr 06 - 07:58 AM (#1716035) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Tommy Joining the thread a bit late since I have just discovered it. There are, as you might well guess - several spellings of SEGOTIA - including SAGOSHA and SHEGOSHIA. As everyone has said its meaning is "close friend" in male usage. Used in "The Hair of the Dogma" by Myles na gCopaleen. A dictionary of Irish Slang "SLANGUAGE" by Bernard Share, 2nd edition published in 2003 by Giles and McMillan - which has its own web site. |
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06 May 06 - 06:18 AM (#1733912) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Margit from Denmark So funny to have come across this place when I was looking for the correct meaning of Segocia. Actually, I was going to use the term "Me Oul Segocia" on a birthday card I'm writing to one of my best and oldest (male) friends, and since he has Irish roots and his birthday falls on the very day we have "Irish Day at the Races" on Klampenborg where he is a professionel trainer, I found this term appropriate. Also there once was a racehorse here called "Me Oul Segocia", and I've often used the term in a loving way when I've talked to him... I just hadn't been able to find it in any dictionary.... and so I just "googled" the term and ended up here! Great... I'll still call him "Me Oul Segocia" meaning my old darling! |
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06 Oct 07 - 05:53 AM (#2164978) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST Try Google put in Segosha 5th site down ,and Bobs your uncle !!I have tried for ages for a definition of this word indeed both my parents frequently used this word , my Mother died 3 years ago at the ripe old age of 94 so it was obviously a word of old , What a pity this lingo seems to be almost lost to common usage. Patti. |
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07 Oct 07 - 05:19 AM (#2165707) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Me ould segosha I wrote very poor instruction on how to obtain the meaning on "Me ould Segosha " in fact the word is segotia ,look it up in doubletongued dictionary and there you will find your answer .Incidentally this saying was also uses in Bagenalstown by a very old man who had been in the army for years and lived next door to me as a child .H e would borrow a half crown on a Wednesday from my Mother repay it on Friday and borrow again the same amount the following Wednesday, and this went on for years, he would click his heels tap the walking stick on the ground doff his cap and always said the same sentence" Thanks me ould segostia." I'll see you on Friday. Patti. |
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19 Nov 07 - 11:00 PM (#2197997) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Grimsley I'm a yank school teacher in Arkansas and my high school students are reading Angela's Ashes,which they love. They are keeping reading journals and have to include unfamiliar terms and and idioms. We have been unable to solve "segosha" (McCourt spelling) until now. Thank-you! |
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20 Nov 07 - 04:27 AM (#2198092) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: MartinRyan Anyone know which site GUEST of Oct. 6 meant? Regards |
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01 Apr 08 - 09:07 AM (#2303145) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Sean O'Smeara Dublin hows it going me auld flower? is a very common greeting we use in dublin by many on both sides of the liffey. Sagotia is the name of a plant or flower. so people use sagotia instead of flower to add that extra individual warmth to the greeting or endearment. Now hope that answer all your questions! |
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01 Apr 08 - 06:34 PM (#2303875) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: MartinRyan Let the innocent check on the meaning of "sméara"! Regards |
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05 Nov 13 - 04:00 PM (#3573119) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Tara Munnelly Dublin Fusiliers term of endearment for children' ma cher gosse'. Any takers? |
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05 Nov 13 - 05:48 PM (#3573151) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: MartinRyan Hi Tara! DId your father suggest that one? ;>)> Regards |
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02 Dec 15 - 05:17 AM (#3755105) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Patricia Conaghan Séan O'Smeara: Thanks for clearing that up! An old Dublin Lady, friend of my mother's (Circa 1960) always used "Me Auld Segotia" as a term of endearment and your explanation of Auld Flower evolving into Auld Segotia makes perfect sense! I love the exchange of abundant theories ... I'm a Dubliner by birth and education, however, left (sadly) in 1976 for further shores. I have never heard the word Dub used as Dublin slang for toilet ("Rub-a-DubDub. 3 Men in a tub"??????? ;-) |
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02 Dec 15 - 04:15 PM (#3755210) Subject: RE: Info Req. Dublin Term: Segocia/Segosha From: GUEST,Gealt https://books.google.ie/books?id=RN0p1uienWMC&pg=PA207&lpg=PA207&dq=donn+s+piatt+-+segotia&source=bl&ots=BbO2rNiiEo&sig=wyImBXqL A Dictionary of Hiberno English, edit. Terence Patrick Dolan, Gill & MacMillan, Dublin, 1998. |