BS: US Presidents as Prophets?

10 Mar 03 - 09:11 AM (#906438)
Subject: BS: US Presidents as Prophets?
From: *daylia*

I found these prophecies most interesting!

Abraham Lincoln

(Nov. 21, 1864 letter to Col. William F. Elkins)

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned, and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war."

From the same site, here is George Washington's apocolyptic vision of the future, recorded in 1859 (a little lengthy for cut and paste, but sure worth the read imo)!

Lincoln's 'vision' seems chillingly accurate, but I'm wondering if this story about George Washington is credible at all. Any historians out there? Opinions, anyone?

daylia

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10 Mar 03 - 10:39 AM (#906509)
Subject: RE: BS: US Presidents as Prophets?
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson

The Lincoln one is reasonable. The Washington seems ridiculous. Look at his writings (the Farewell Address is a pretty good example and easily accessible); he wrote in the style of the 18th century, not the King James Bible. I would call this a not-very-clever forgery.

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10 Mar 03 - 10:39 AM (#906510)
Subject: RE: BS: US Presidents as Prophets?
From: Amos

Daylia:

I have studied Washington's letters, and I am willing to bet he did not write the visionary dream report you linked to. I base this in the stylistic differences, not anything else.

A

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10 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM (#906784)
Subject: RE: BS: US Presidents as Prophets?
From: *daylia*

Amos, the article does not claim that George Washington wrote the vision himself, but that he revealed it to certain of his fellow officers during the harrowing winter of 1777, while commanding his troops at Valley Forge.

Apparently it is found at the Library of Congress, but not being American I'm not sure - is that distinction any indication of credibility?

Here's an article which claims the story is an old hoax, on the grounds that Washington was not a "religious man".

Well, I did check out his Farewell Address (thanks Peter!). If he was not religious, why would he have made such statements as "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensible supports."

And again, in the last few sentences, "... I fervently beseech the Almighty to avert or mitigate the evils to which they may attend..."

Hmmmm (still) ... daylia

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10 Mar 03 - 04:25 PM (#906796)
Subject: RE: BS: US Presidents as Prophets?
From: CarolC

If the Washington piece was first recorded in 1859, my guess is that it came from someone who had a particular axe to grind with regard to the events of that time period. Sure sounds like it to me, anyway.

The Lincoln one makes sense to me, though.

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10 Mar 03 - 05:26 PM (#906835)
Subject: RE: BS: US Presidents as Prophets?
From: Mark Clark

Nice piece and thread, daylia. But did you mean prophets or profits? <g>

      - Mark

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10 Mar 03 - 05:33 PM (#906842)
Subject: RE: BS: US Presidents as Prophets?
From: catspaw49

Outside of the GW debate here.........

For my money the best "Presidential Prophecy" was Eisenhower's speech on the military-industrial complex in 1958(?). Certainly it was already happening but DDW saw where it could (and did) go and the inherent dangers.

Spaw

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10 Mar 03 - 06:56 PM (#906890)
Subject: RE: BS: US Presidents as Prophets?
From: *daylia*

Spaw, here's Eisenhower's speech about the military-industrial complex, dated 1961. Prophetic indeed!

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

And again, "The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded ... we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific technological elite."

And this closing sentiment is really poignant today, for me anyway:

"We pray that peoples of all faiths, all races, all nations, may have their great human needs satisfied; that those now denied opportunity shall come to enjoy it to the full; that all who yearn for freedom may experience its spiritual blessings; that those who have freedom will understand, also, its heavy responsibilities; that all who are insensitive to the needs of others will learn charity; that the scourges of poverty, disease and ignorance will be made to disappear from the earth, and that, in the goodness of time, all peoples will come to live together in a peace guaranteed by the binding force of mutual respect and love."

Sounds quite 'divinely' guided and presidentially poetic to me! Sheesh, you guys have had so many wise and gifted leaders ...
oh whatever can the matter be??

daylia

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10 Mar 03 - 06:58 PM (#906895)
Subject: RE: BS: US Presidents as Prophets?
From: GUEST

snopes says that both the washington and the lincoln "prophecies" are false....suggest you read up on them before posting crap...

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10 Mar 03 - 08:13 PM (#906950)
Subject: RE: BS: US Presidents as Prophets?
From: CarolC

Here's some of what snopes has to say about the Lincoln "quote":

"Origins:   The above quote, attributed to President Abraham Lincoln, has been periodically dusted off and presented to the public as a prophetic warning about the destruction of America through the usurpation of power and concentration of wealth by capitalist tyrants for over a century now, undergoing a renewed burst of popularity whenever wartime exigencies stir public debate over governmental policies.

These words did not originate with Abraham Lincoln, however -- they appear in none of his collected writings or speeches, and they did not surface until more than twenty years after his death (and were immediately denounced as a "bold, unflushing forgery" by John Nicolay, Lincoln's private secretary). This spurious Lincoln warning gained currency during the 1896 presidential election season (when economic policy, particularly the USA's adherence to the gold standard, was the major campaign issue), and ever since then it has been cited and quoted by innumerable journalists, clergymen, congressmen, and compilers of encyclopedias."

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10 Mar 03 - 08:15 PM (#906951)
Subject: RE: BS: US Presidents as Prophets?
From: CarolC

Oops. Here's a link for snopes:

snopes

Look under "quotes".

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10 Mar 03 - 09:29 PM (#906993)
Subject: RE: BS: US Presidents as Prophets?
From: *daylia*

Carol that's very interesting! Thanks for the snopes link.

Here's some information about President Lincoln's Bank War you referred to.

According to this link, in his Annual Address to Congress Dec 1861, Lincoln expresses almost identical views to the ones in the 'prophecy' in question:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration ... No men living are more worthy to be trusted than those who toil up from poverty -- none less inclined to take, or touch, aught that they have not honestly earned. Let them beware of surrendering a political power which they already possess, and which, if surrendered, will surely be used to close the door of advancement against such as they, and to fix new disabilities and burdens upon them, till all of liberty shall be lost .... "

I remember hearing as a child how Lincoln had a dream foretelling his death a couple days before he was assassinated. I found the information at this site. Here's the dream, as he (allegedly) related it his friend Will Hill Lamon ...

"There seemed to be a death like stillness about me. Then I heard subdued sobs, as if a number of people were weeping. I thought I left my bed and wandered downstairs. I went from room to room...the same mournful sounds of distress met me as I passed along...I kept on until I arrived at the East Room, which I entered. There I met with a sickening surprise. Before me was a catafalque, on which rested a corpse...'Who is dead in the White House?' I demanded of one of the soldiers. 'The President,?' was the answer, ''He was killed by an assassin.' Then there came a loud burst of grief from the crowd, which awoke me from my dream. I slept no more that night; and although it was only a dream, I have been strangely annoyed by it ever sense."

Well, if President Lincoln was no stranger to pre-cognitive dreams, and was deeply committed to preventing the social conditions of which the "prophecy" speaks, then ... then ... the plot thickens ...

daylia

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11 Mar 03 - 11:41 AM (#907396)
Subject: RE: BS: US Presidents as Prophets?
From: *daylia*

Amazingly enough, here's proof that another great GW - Dubya himself! - is endowed with the powers of presidential prophecy! And he didn't even have to expire before his gifts of "sight" were published!!


"When Iraq is liberated, you will be treated, tried and persecuted as a war criminal." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Jan. 22, 2003

"There may be some tough times here in America. But this country has gone through tough times before, and we're going to do it again." —George W. Bush, Waco, Texas, Aug. 13, 2002

"I haven't had a chance to talk, but I'm confident we'll get a bill that I can live with if we don't." —George W. Bush, referring to the McCain-Kennedy patients' bill of rights, June 13, 2001

"If a person doesn't have the capacity that we all want that person to have, I suspect hope is in the far distant future, if at all." —George W. Bush, May 22, 2001

"Redefining the role of the United States from enablers to keep the peace to enablers to keep the peace from peacekeepers is going to be an assignment." —George W. Bush, Jan. 14, 2001

"There's not going to be enough people in the system to take advantage of people like me." —George W. Bush, on the coming Social Security crisis, Wilton, Conn., June 9, 2000

"We'll let our friends be the peacekeepers and the great country called America will be the pacemakers." —George W. Bush, Houston, Texas, Sept. 6, 2000

"If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow." —George W. Bush, Jan. 2000


Ok, nuff said. I'm gettin a little depressed.

daylia

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