|
22 Mar 03 - 12:06 PM (#916024) Subject: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Greycap Song by the Copper family, also sung by the Young Tradition, contains the word 'relope'. I can't find it in any dictionary, can anyone help me here? What the hell does it mean? I'm baffled. |
|
22 Mar 03 - 12:21 PM (#916034) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Nigel Parsons Just checked the DT entry Innocent Hare in case it was a typo, and the word 'relope' does appear. I can't find it in the dictionary, I only guess that it is being used to mean 'Run away' based on 'Lope' (to jump or run) and re-lope, to jump or run back the way the hare came. Nigel |
|
22 Mar 03 - 12:46 PM (#916046) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Malcolm Douglas I've always assumed that it was some sort of specialised hunting term, but I don't actually know. It also appears in the Coppers' Gentlemen of High Renown; but nowhere else that I can think of. Perhaps it's local. |
|
22 Mar 03 - 12:47 PM (#916047) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: DMcG I don't know what dictionary Nigel used, but I've just checked the full OED dictionary (the 20-odd volume one) and its not in that! |
|
22 Mar 03 - 02:08 PM (#916077) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Q We need someone who knows English fox-hunting, or hunting with hounds, to tell us. Like DMcG, I failed with the OED and other dictionaries as well. I couldn't find it in the John Peel threads. |
|
22 Mar 03 - 02:10 PM (#916080) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: open mike i think it must have something to do with a Jack-a-lope, wild west relative to the hare, with antlers. |
|
22 Mar 03 - 02:14 PM (#916083) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Geoff the Duck Nigel checked the Digital Tradition to find if relope was the word used in the song - Not to find if it is in a dictionary. |
|
22 Mar 03 - 02:57 PM (#916097) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Bat Goddess It's definitely the word used in the song. I've always figured it was a regional hunting term. Thanks for reminding me (as Tom did last night) that I need to sing this more often. Linn |
|
22 Mar 03 - 03:12 PM (#916107) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Malcolm Douglas You can always ask the Coppers themselves. They can be contacted via the (approved) website: The Copper Family |
|
22 Mar 03 - 03:18 PM (#916111) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: MMario from context it appears to be the sound of the hunting horn. |
|
22 Mar 03 - 03:26 PM (#916118) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST Consider it poetic liscence lope means to canter, gallop, leap. It makes for better poetry and meter to say relope, relope, retiring hare. |
|
22 Mar 03 - 05:27 PM (#916187) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: greg stephens I did a quick yahoo search for "relope" and only found 9 mentions. I think they were all hunting song references, except for one "hardcore men sex" site. I did not venture further. |
|
22 Mar 03 - 08:01 PM (#916259) Subject: Lyr Add - extra verse for Master McGrath From: McGrath of Harlow You'd need someone who knows about hare coursing. What I've always taken it to mean is the kind of rapid changing of direction that hares make, as they try dodge the dogs and escape, which I gather most of them do. As mentioned in a verse of Master McGrath that isn't in the DT, where the term "turn" is used: Then the hare she went on just as swift as the win. He was sometoimes before her and sometimes behind. Rose gave the first turn according to law - Butb tne second was given by Master McGrath. But I may of course be wrong. Apart from The Innocent Hare and Master McGrath, I know nothing about coursing. |
|
23 Mar 03 - 04:31 AM (#916407) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Nigel Parsons DMcG: I clearly stated I couldn't find it in the dictionary, which was why I tried putting forward a suitable derivation. Nigel |
|
23 Mar 03 - 04:45 AM (#916410) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: SussexCarole From Dictionary of Sussex Dialect: Lope-off means to go away in secret, sly manner (probably connected with the word elope). Carole |
|
23 Mar 03 - 09:19 AM (#916464) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: M'Grath of Altcar The song is about hare hunting not hare coursing. Rapid changes of direction ( turns or wrenches ) are seen on the coursing field but not so much on a hare hunt. Certainly on a recent hunt near here the huntsman said that our local hares do not seem to turn at all! In most hunts the hare tends to be "overhauled." or more commonly, in the second or two after it leaves cover. A hare hunting beagle has no chance whatsoever of catching a twisting, jinking hare. I have asked a couple of huntsmen, including one of the masters of a beagle pack, about the term relope and they do not know the term. One of them suggested that it probably refers to a situation where the hare follows its own tracks, leading to a very confusing situation for hounds. The situation only arises when hounds are a long way behind the hare. Interesting extra verse to Master M'Grath by the way. May I ask its source? Tally-Ho! |
|
23 Mar 03 - 11:57 AM (#916522) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: nutty I believe that "The Relope" was likely to be a hunting call ...... In the past,it could have been local to a particular area and is now no longer used. One German site I found by putting "hunting horn" into Google, states that there are appox. 3,500 different calls that can be played on a hunting horn. |
|
23 Mar 03 - 12:08 PM (#916526) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Jim McLean The extra verse seems to be a mixture of two, as printed in Dominic Behan's book 'Ireland Sings' 1965. The hare ran on with a wonderful view, And swift as a rocket it crossed Waterloo, Rose gave the first turn which is according to law, For the second was given by Master McGrath. McGrath paced the hare just as swift as the wind, He was sometimes before it and sometimes behind, Then he jumped on her back and he held up his paw, "We've beaten the Saxons!" said Master McGrath. Jim Mclean |
|
23 Mar 03 - 06:02 PM (#916659) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Richard Bridge I don't know where the idea came from but (and I have never hunted or coursed at all, but I know a man who does and I might ask him) I have always thought that the word "relope", of a hunted hare, meant to change direction so as to return towards one or more of the pursuers |
|
23 Mar 03 - 06:10 PM (#916664) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: McGrath of Harlow That verse as I gave it comes from Colm O Lochlann's "Irish Street Ballads". The couplets in this song seem to move around and get assembled into different verses according to taste. My father had the ending as: Then he leapt on its back and he held up his paw - "Up the Republic" says bold Master McGrath. |
|
23 Mar 03 - 06:13 PM (#916665) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: greg stephens Seems to be a bit of a dispute between McGrath and M'Grath. There's a "name spelling " BS thread current at the moment where this could be adressed. |
|
23 Mar 03 - 08:10 PM (#916711) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: McGrath of Harlow I note in this piece about the Master from the Dungarvan Museum in Co Watrford, near where he came from, that both spellings are used. That's the way to do it. It's an interesting story on the end of that link too - about how he nearly got drowned when he went thropugh the ice on a river at the Waterloo Cup in 1870, but got saved by a hero called Michael Wilson, and retired to stud. A happy ending. (And about his visit to meet Queen Victoria.) But in deferance to Joe and the Cut and Paste business, I'll just leave the link to it. But there ought to be a song about the Master's last run. Perhaps there is. |
|
24 Mar 03 - 02:03 AM (#916826) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Jon Dudley Well blow me down! We've been singing 'relope' for ever and like many of your contibutors, been puzzled by it's meaning, thinking it to be a hunting cry along the 'Tally-Ho!' lines. However, we were idly looking through Brasser Copper's (born 1845) songbook the other evening and what should we see? Within 'Sportsmens Arouse', it is clearly written 'alope' - not 'relope'. Now given Brasser's idiosyncratic and charming spelling we have 'elope' , the Chambers definition of which is 'to escape privately' or 'run away', but more fascinatingly we have in the Oxford Dictionary (from memory) 'alope', meaning the same but from the Old French! Not a language with which the old chap was familiar. We were even asked the question not so long ago after a gig in London and could not give a satisfactory answer. We've deduced that through the oral process, probably in Jim Copper's generation the word got changed to 'Relope' .They couldn't refer back to Brasser's book because they didn't have it - it being written for a Mrs. Corrie daughter of the local farmer and a precious copy of it not passing to Bob Copper's generation until much later. Problem solved I reckon. |
|
24 Mar 03 - 03:25 AM (#916854) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Greycap That does it for me! Many thanks to all contributors, I can sleep at nights now. Come to Ripon Folk Club one Sunday night and I'll buy beers. |
|
24 Mar 03 - 03:41 AM (#916858) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Steve Parkes I seem to recall reading it in George McDonald Fraser's "Flashman at the Charge": Flashy fights a duel; his opponent fires without harming him Flashy relopes, i.e. deliberately aims away from him. I shall have to look it up, of course: it might be a completely different word that I've misremembered. And it doesn't help explain the hare-hunting meaning. Steve |
|
24 Mar 03 - 04:28 AM (#916866) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Gurney 'Rollop' is Ipswich/Bury dialect for a noisy gallop. 'Relaie' is a fresh set of hounds. 'Releve' is rally. 'Reliez' is proceed. 'Lope' is leap. just a few of hundreds of vague possibilities from my 1850 'Dictionary of Archaic Words. Hope this adds some confusion. Heh Heh. |
|
24 Mar 03 - 04:54 AM (#916873) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Dave Bryant Ah well if John Dudley, a member of the Copper Family, says it's elope (or alope) then I suppose we'll all have to start singing it differently. Perhaps I'll have to correct my copy of "A Song for every season" ! |
|
24 Mar 03 - 04:59 AM (#916874) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Steve Parkes And "tally-ho" comes from the French "il est haut--il est haut": "it/he's up", the "t" of "haut" being sounded before the vowel at the start of the repeat (say it out loud several times). Nothing to do with haring, but that's according to T H White in The Once And Future King. |
|
24 Mar 03 - 06:08 AM (#916905) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: AKS The hare, when retiring for the night or on the escape, makes various 'manoeuvres', one of which is to suddenly make a long leap sideways off the course, to distract the tracer or the pursuer. I read in the context that the singer is encouraging 'the innocent hare' to make one! AKS |
|
24 Mar 03 - 07:18 AM (#916919) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Mr Red there used to be a BBC radio4 prog that loved these kinds of questions but the series is only on rarely. 'Praps we could throw a bag of these like "scorpe" and see if they can answer at least one. Anyone know if it is going to be braodcast again? There is always "Quote Unquote". |
|
24 Mar 03 - 10:44 AM (#917058) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Jon Dudley To put Dave Bryant's mind at rest...we won't be singing it any differently to the way we always have done...being respecters of the oral tradition! |
|
24 Mar 03 - 10:46 AM (#917062) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Steve Parkes I've already passed it on to Michael Quinion at World-Wide Words. We'll have to wait a few days to see if he can answer the question. Meanwhile, there's a new series of "Quote Unquote" starting on Monday (rpt Sunday), but I expect most or all of the programmes have been recorded already. I'll leave it to you to have a go at Nigel Rees, but I'm not sure if he charges for that kind of thing. Steve |
|
24 Mar 03 - 11:45 AM (#917130) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere) I think the duelling usage may be delope, not relope. Penny |
|
24 Mar 03 - 12:24 PM (#917168) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Schantieman Now there's a thing. I used to sing this song years ago before most people started worrying about killing nice furry animals. I haven't sung it for years, chiefly for fear of offending these people. Yesterday, a vegetarian lady of my acquaintance (who used to hunt foxes) suggested that I sing it! The question is, will I get hounded out (ouch!) of the club? Does singing the song imply approval of the pastime? Does it matter? (Alright, the questions are - but it doesn't sound right!) Any ideas? (And I live about 4 miles from Altcar, home of the Waterloo Cup) Steve |
|
24 Mar 03 - 12:28 PM (#917173) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Steve Parkes Oh gosh -- you're absolutely right, Penny! No wonder it didn't make sense ... Steve: hate the sin, love the sinner, I say! Not only does the Devil have al the best tunes, he has a lot of the good lyrics; it's up to us righteous folks to liberate 'em. (Let me know if this works for you, and I'll try it myself.) |
|
24 Mar 03 - 12:36 PM (#917185) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,JohnB Jon Dudley, is it "oral tradition" to maintain what could be a "mondegreen" ? I have over the years corrected/ammended some words of songs, which I learned/heard incorrectly or, to make more sense. JohnB (who also sings "relope") |
|
24 Mar 03 - 12:42 PM (#917190) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Jon Berger What Flashman did in the duel was delope, not relope. Close, though. |
|
24 Mar 03 - 12:45 PM (#917195) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: the lemonade lady I think it a barbaric sport and am amazed that it still happens. Had it have been an old sport and part of our history, I would approve of it being sung. One could introduce the song by saying that one does not approve of the carrying on of the sport but.... Hmmm, I'm not sure about it but the tune is great. And I know of someone who sings it with great Gusto! Sal |
|
24 Mar 03 - 12:48 PM (#917199) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Jon Berger Re changing words to make the song more comprehensible: I do that pretty routinely, but I don't actually think that "alope" is any more comprehensible than "relope." I learned this one from the Young Tradition recording, and Peter Bellamy had such a distinctive way of singing "relope" that I just can't imagine it any other way. I do, however, sing "The secrets of *my* heart, dear girl, and the best of *my* good will / So let *my* body be where it might" in another Copper Family song, "Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy." I think the Coppers sing (or at least most people who learned it from them sing) "your" for the first two and "my" for the middle one, which to me doesn't make any sense at all. |
|
24 Mar 03 - 07:52 PM (#917502) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Snuffy I always sing it that way too, Jon. Otherwise it's just nonsense. |
|
24 Mar 03 - 09:39 PM (#917551) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Thomas the Rhymer Decades of wonder have gone into this interesting word! I love singing it with great enthusiasm, and always I feel humorously concerned that I am not 'quite' sure what I'm so passionate about. aloper - "Norman French... a legal term applied to a wife that runs away with her lover"... American Heritage elope - "To run away; abscond" AH abscond - "To leave quickly and secretly and hide oneself; especially to avoid arrest or prosecution" AH Auw get you, you dwoyty wabbit! ttr |
|
25 Mar 03 - 02:48 AM (#917661) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Jon Dudley Well, John B., if I knew what a mondegreen was (couldn't find it in Chambers) I'm sure I'd agree you had a point. Taking an (un)educated guess I think you mean perpetuating a mistake (word in this case) and singing something which doesn't make sense. Hmm, there's loads of cases of that and I'll give you a 'for instance'...in 'Admiral Benbow ' we sing 'Come all you seamen bold, landed here, landed here'...makes sense until you think it probably started out as 'Come all you seamen bold, lend an ear, lend and ear'. Well, personally, be it a mondegreen or not, I find it charming and will carry on singing it that way. Glad to hear that Relope stays in your rendition , though! |
|
25 Mar 03 - 03:30 AM (#917683) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Sarah the flute I always thought relope meant "give up" or "repent" Sarah |
|
25 Mar 03 - 03:32 AM (#917684) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Steve Parkes ... or and draw near, and draw near, which is how I learned it (from Alasdair Clair's "100 folk songs and new songs"). Here's a good intoduction to mondegreens. Anyone asked the Coppers yet, btw? Steve |
|
25 Mar 03 - 04:11 AM (#917704) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Jon Dudley Steve Parkes...see 24th March, the posting 2 before yours...although only a Copper-in law, I think the question was answered. |
|
25 Mar 03 - 04:56 AM (#917715) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Steve Parkes Jon, I obviously need to pay more attention! But then, I am supposed to be working! Steve |
|
25 Mar 03 - 05:06 AM (#917719) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Gurney So,it seems we are all just as well informed as each other. I'll continue with 'relope' too, and maybe introduce the word into conversational usage. Since we accept into common usage dozens of words and reinterpretations and phrases every year, why not one that only phokies know? My suggested meaning, 'run away and hide.' Reloping now. (Phokies are people who poke sly fun at the earnest. I made that up, too.) |
|
25 Mar 03 - 05:17 AM (#917723) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Dave Bryant I think I agree with you Jon (sorry about misspelling your name earlier), there's a pleasant bit of alliteration in the phrase "Relope, relope retiring hare". Singing "elope" is rather a bit of a tongue-twister. Anyway if it got changed during Jim's time - and I can definitely remember Bob singing "relope" with Ron - then why not keep it as part of "the folk proccess". I bet you start having a careful look through your copy of Brasser's manuscript now. Yes the term Mondegreen refers to words or phases which have been mis-heard and the error then proliferated. There are several Mudcat threads on the subject including this one on the subject. A good example is the way that many Irish singers sing "The shoals of Herring" as "The Shores of Erin" BTW Jon - It's great to see you on Mudcat - why not become a member rather than just a guest It doesn't cost anything and we'd be honoured to have you as a member. |
|
25 Mar 03 - 07:05 AM (#917770) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Jon Dudley Dave... There's absolutely no likelihood of our reverting to 'elope' now...I get sucked into these stimulating discussions on Mudcat, but (and I hope I didn't sound chastising, Steve) Iike most of us, I'm supposed to be working too! Keep up the good work. Jon P.S. Re. Mondegreen...Jeff Davis told me the one which I'm sure you all know..."The ants are my friends..." rather than "The answer my friends etc etc"...ho! ho! |
|
25 Mar 03 - 07:35 AM (#917786) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Jim Ward The Sussex County Magazine of February, 1931 gives the texts of some hunting songs collected by one G.B.Shiffner. During the forward he states the songs are "no doubt given in a perverted text owing, I think, to the habit of the rural singer of learning them by rote rather than from the printed word, and the fact that the sense of a sentence troubled him little, so long as the tune pleased him". 'Sportsman Arouse' was noted as a great favourite, and the verse in question is given as All on the green turf she pants for breath The huntsman, he shouts out "Tis death!" Elope! Elope! We have tired our hare! Wine and beer we will drink without fear And drink success to the innocent hare. |
|
25 Mar 03 - 08:44 AM (#917822) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Jon Dudley Well done Jim! See you next Sunday! |
|
25 Mar 03 - 10:00 AM (#917865) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Steve Parkes Oh no, Jon (wow -- how's that for bona fides! You'll just have to join up!) I didn't feel chastised. I don't mind a bit of chastisement from, say, Liz the Squeak or Julie B, but this isn't the time or place! Steve |
|
25 Mar 03 - 01:03 PM (#918036) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,JohnB I only picked up the word "mondegreen" from here Jon so don't feel bad. I thought it was just me who didn't know it before. The above links give the full explanation. I do/would sing "lend an ear" though not frequently as it's not a song we do, that's the way I have it my mind though. Friends, Romans, Countrymen lend me your rears. NO! I'm not like that. JohnB. |
|
25 Mar 03 - 01:28 PM (#918063) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Q Some nice mondegreens in thread 46820: mondegreen The dictionaries haven't picked the word up yet. If someone would send the article picked up by Steve Parkes to the OED, it would be put in the pile of additions. Other dictionaries are limited in size and will only incorporate a word when it has achieved widespread useage. |
|
25 Mar 03 - 02:22 PM (#918120) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Just Amy Isn't it where you elope with a guy, divorce him, then elope with him again.. The second time being called "relope" ;-p |
|
25 Mar 03 - 04:17 PM (#918222) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: toadfrog Seems to me changing from "relope" to "alope" because "alope" is in the dictionary is the ultimate act of pedantry. Who ever uses "alope" in everyday speech? The Coppers do funny things with words. "To David's City, sin on earth"? That doesn't mean anything, but it sounds great! It's perfect - don't change it. And the Copper words to Admiral Benbow often don't make sense at all, but they sing so much better than the textbook words. Who cares what they mean? Who cares about the captains who ran away? |
|
25 Mar 03 - 06:16 PM (#918341) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: greg stephens The is a precedent for an English word only existing in a folk-song: the word carnal, probably meaning crow ,in "The Carnal and the Crane". |
|
25 Mar 03 - 06:30 PM (#918355) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: nutty Sorry Greg but ...... Webster's 1913 Dictionary gives one definition of "carnal" as "flesh devouring" which could describe the crow |
|
25 Mar 03 - 06:45 PM (#918364) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Q The OED gives the Carnal and Crow quotation and suggests that it is from the French corneille, thus crow; then questions it! The word also once meant a cardinal (religious, not the bird). |
|
25 Mar 03 - 06:58 PM (#918374) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Malcolm Douglas The Webster entry is presumably an adjective rather than a noun? "Carnal, cornicula, corneille, might be thought to have been long obsolete from the word not occurring in ordinary dictionaries, if in any: but it is hazardous to build conclusions on the omissions of dictionaries." F. J. Child, The English and Scottish Popular Ballads, vol. II p.7. |
|
25 Mar 03 - 07:54 PM (#918410) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Q Adding a little to the above by Malcolm Douglas on the Carnal and the Crane (Child No. 55): "The carol had obviously been transmitted from mouth to mouth before it was fixed in its present incoherent and corrupted form by print.*" The asterisk is to the footnote quoted by Douglas. Reading through the carol, "cardinal" is not beyond the realm of possibility. The Webster's Dictionaries only have the adjectival form. All this has little to do with relope. It seems that there ae no coursers or hunters with hounds among mudcatters so we are stuck with speculation. |
|
26 Mar 03 - 02:37 AM (#918559) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Jon Dudley Oh!, for goodness sake...I can't leave this alone! Conventional (sic) dictionaries might not have picked up on the meaning of 'mondegreen' but yourDictionary.com certainly has, viz.... A series of words that result from the mishearing or misinterpretation of a statement or song lyric. For example, I led the pigeons to the flag for I pledge allegiance to the flag. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [After (Lady) Mondegreen, a misinterpretation of the line (hae laid) him on the green, from the song "The Bonny Earl of Murray".] A case of Mudcatters in the lexicography department here methinks. |
|
01 Aug 04 - 05:20 AM (#1238195) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: mcgrathof altcar The Jorrocks sites has a useful glossary of hunting terms and gives two definitions for the term elope. ELOPE: A halloo, to get hounds away, and also notice for men to come away. Elope, or Elope forward awawoy (sic): When some hounds are gone away, to call the rest. These definitions actually seem to contradict each other. Whatever the word elope, it seems, is an actual hunting expression. Though none of the beagling or harrier people I know are familiar with the term. |
|
01 Aug 04 - 05:23 AM (#1238196) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: mcgrathof altcar Forgot to include this blue clicky. A link to a glossary of hunting terms click here |
|
09 May 09 - 11:07 AM (#2627708) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Tug the Cox The last two posts would seem to imply that in the song, the huntsmen are calling off the hounds and letting the hare run free. ( I know this is an old thread, but curiosity led me to try and find the meaning of relope, 40 years after first hearing it!) |
|
09 May 09 - 12:34 PM (#2627743) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Ron Davies But "relope" just sounds like an old hunting term--whether it is or not. And the fact that it sounds like an archaic term just adds to its appeal. I'd think that ultimate truth shouldn't necessarily be the goal here. |
|
09 May 09 - 01:05 PM (#2627763) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Sedayne (Astray) ultimate truth shouldn't necessarily be the goal here. The wisest words I've read on Mudcat for a long time! |
|
09 May 09 - 09:01 PM (#2628020) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Tug the Cox Hey, I wasn't after any ultimate truth,, which is why I usee the word 'imply'. I've always loved the word 'relope', and will never stop singing it, but now know( thanks to the postings above) that there has never been such a word, that there was a hunting term 'elope' and it might imply what I suggested above. |
|
10 Feb 11 - 10:00 AM (#3092454) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,phillipat If you go to the Museum of Hunting in Melton Mowbray Leics, uk you will find a book of hunting horn 'Calls' It identifies a call named as 'Relope' used when the fox or the hare turns back on it's own tracks thereby confusing the hounds. The huntsman then blows a call which by onomatopoeia is 'Relope' There is in the book a 45 rpm disc and thankfuly a CD so one can hear this and many other calls. Though personally I abhor Hare and Foxhunting,there are some damn fine songs about them! |
|
10 Feb 11 - 10:17 AM (#3092460) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Excellent! So there is truth after all! By the way, The Innocent Hare is Rapunzel & Sedayne's contribution to Bradfordian's Mudcat Blue Plate CD project... |
|
10 Feb 11 - 01:36 PM (#3092579) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Max Johnson Well done. I've always vaguely wondered what it meant. I know a few people who go foxhunting, but have never asked them because the ones who aren't prime shits are a bit thick and probably wouldn't know. Always loved the songs, though. Echo, bright echo! |
|
10 Feb 11 - 03:07 PM (#3092648) Subject: DT Correction: Innocent Hare From: Joe Offer I thought it might be worthwhile to post the Traditional Ballad Index entry on this song: Innocent Hare, TheDESCRIPTION: Sportsmen and hounds hunt the hare; after searching, the game is found. She takes off running; the huntsman blows his horn; the hare is killed. The singer declares she has led them a noble run, drinks success to all sportsment and to the "innocent hare"AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1952 (recorded from Mark Fuller & Luther Hills) KEYWORDS: death hunting sports drink animal dog FOUND IN: Britain(England(South)) REFERENCES (1 citation): Kennedy 251, "The Innocent Hare" (1 text, 1 tune) Roud #1216 CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "The Hare of Kilgrain" (theme: fatal hare hunt) cf. "The Granemore Hare" (theme: fatal hare hunt) cf. "The White Hare" (theme: fatal hare hunt) cf. "Bold Reynard the Fox (Tallyho! Hark! Away!)" (theme) cf. "The Echoing Horn" (theme) cf. "Joe Bowman" (theme) ALTERNATE TITLES: Sportsmen Arouse Sportsmen Arise File: K251 Go to the Ballad Search form The Ballad Index Copyright 2010 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. Roud Index SearchHere are the Digital Tradition Lyrics, which I think could use some correction:
or SPORTSMEN AROUSE from the singing of the Copper Family Sportsmen arouse, the morning is clear The larks are singing all in the air Sportsmen arouse, the morning is clear The larks are singing all in the air Go tell your sweet lover, the hounds are out Go tell your sweet lover the hounds are out Saddle your horses, your saddles prepare We'll away to cover to seek for a hare We searched the woods the groves all around The trail being over, the game being found... We searched the woods the groves all around The trail being over, the game being found... Then u-up she springs, through brake she flies... Then u-up she springs, through brake she flies... Follow, follow the musical horn Sing follow, hark follow, the innocent hare The huntsman blows his joyful sound Tally ho, me boys, all over the down The huntsman blows his joyful sound Tally ho, me boys, all over the down From the woods to the valleys, see how she creeps From the woods to the valleys, see how she creeps Follow, follow the musical horn Sing follow, hark follow, the innocent hare All along the green turf she pants for breath The huntsman he cries out for death All along the green turf she pants for breath The huntsman he cries out for death Relope, relope, retiring hare Relope, relope, retiring hare Follow, follow the musical horn Sing follow, hark follow, the innocent hare This hare has led us a noble run Success to sportsman, every one This hare has led us a noble run Success to sportsman, every one Such a chase she has led us, four hours or more Such a chase she has led us, four hours or more Wine and beer we'll drink without fear We'll drink a success to the innocent hare @English @hunt recorded by Young Tradition and Copper Family filename[ INNOHARE TUNE FILE: INNOHARE CLICK TO PLAY SOF Corrected Lyrics Below Here are the lyrics from Bob Copper's A Song For Every Season (p. 281). You'll note that several words are different. INNOCENT HARE or SPORTSMEN AROUSE from the singing of the Copper Family Sportsmen arouse, the morning is clear, The larks are singing all in the air. Sportsmen arouse, the morning is clear, The larks are singing all in the air. Go and tell your sweet lover, the hounds are out, Go and tell your sweet lover the hounds are out. Saddle your horses, your saddles* prepare, We'll away to some cover to seek for a hare. We searched the woods (and) the groves all round, The trial being over, the game it is found. We searched the woods (and) the groves all round, The trial being over, the game it is found. Then off she springs, through brake she flies, Then off she springs, through brake she flies. Follow, follow the musical horn, Sing: follow, hark forward, the innocent hare. Our huntsman blows his joyful sound, Tally ho, my boys, all over the downs. Our huntsman blows his joyful sound, Tally ho, my boys, all over the downs. From the woods to the valleys, see how she creeps, From the woods to the valleys, see how she creeps. Follow, follow the musical horn, Sing: follow, hark forward, the innocent hare. All along the green turf she pants for breath, Our huntsman he shouts out for death. All along the green turf she pants for breath, Our huntsman he shouts out for death. Relope, relope, retiring hare, Relope, relope, retiring hare. Follow, follow the musical horn, Sing: follow, hark forward, the innocent hare. This hare has led us a noble run, Success to sportsman, every one. This hare has led us a noble run, Success to sportsman, every one. Such a chase she has led us, four hours or more, Such a chase she has led us, four hours or more. Wine and beer we'll drink without fear, We'll drink a success to the innocent hare. *On the Copper Family recording, it sounds like one voice is singing "saddles" and the other "hurdles." Kennedy has "harness," which makes more sense. Source: Bob Copper's A Song For Every Season (p. 281) Peter Kennedy's source is his 1955 recording of Bob and Ron Copper, and Kennedy's transcription in "Folksongs of Britain and Ireland" is almost identical to the lyrics in the Bob Copper book. @English @hunt recorded by Young Tradition and Copper Family filename[ INNOHARE TUNE FILE: INNOHARE CLICK TO PLAY SOF |
|
11 Feb 11 - 02:25 AM (#3092957) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: scowie Interesting! In Lancashire "To slope off" is to creep away hopefully un-noticed, "To sidle off" is the same but more brazen, I always thought that "relope" was associated with the former, with an allowance for the differing dialects involved. On the singing of Hunting songs, it is of course quite common to sing of say "Adultery" I have done it myself without feeling that I should go out and do likewise! So don't let's deprive ourselves of some of the most descriptive songs there are and of course their glorious tunes. Perhaps we are looking at this too closely, the Irish say of such a critic that "they would cut a Skylarks throat to see what makes it sing" we should not do the same. |
|
17 Feb 11 - 06:31 AM (#3097024) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,phillip t Yes well said, they are some of the best and most descriptive songs. After I came across the book in the Museum in Melton Mowbray I compared the words of quite a few songs, many phrases of which would seem to be imitative of hunting horn calls, an example being in 'The Morning Looks Charming, the refrain is "Hark to the hounds, The morning is fair.." both of which seem to me to be exact copies of calls. So then the next question is which came first? ....not that it really matters! But it would be an interesting study. For those interested I do have the name and author of the book, unfortunately it is in Canada and I am in England until May! But I will track it down. Cheers Phillip |
|
17 Feb 11 - 06:47 AM (#3097033) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Ruth Archer I love this thread. I live near Melton and didn't even know about the hunting museum. Is it in the town museum, across from Morrisson's supermarket, next to McDinald's? I would like to have a look around, and get a copy of the book. |
|
17 Feb 11 - 07:34 AM (#3097050) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Jim Carroll "McDinld's" Assume you mean McDonald's Ruth - how convenient; the beasts they're celebrating the slaughter of can be served up on their cotton-wool buns. Jim Carroll |
|
17 Feb 11 - 07:36 AM (#3097052) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: MartinRyan Jim Too deer, surely, in these recessionary times! Regards |
|
17 Feb 11 - 08:28 AM (#3097081) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Jim Carroll Martin; "Too deer" Oh deer! Regards back to you and J, Jim Carroll |
|
17 Feb 11 - 09:21 AM (#3097117) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Ruth Archer Jim, I've lived in the hunting heartlands for many years, and not yet seen the Quorn (now there's an ironic name) going hell for leather in hot pursuit of a cow. |
|
17 Feb 11 - 10:36 AM (#3097166) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Now I'm drooling at the thoughts of an Innocent McHare Burger; a well-hung & well-marinaded relope served up with suitably rank-relish & tongue-piercing mustards - and all washed down with wine & root-beer drank with good cheer if only to toast good sportsmen all. Quorn I do like, BTW, by the way, though avoid the Family Roast which is every bit as rancid as it looks on the box no matter how you dress it up (THIS for example). |
|
17 Feb 11 - 10:43 AM (#3097169) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Ruth Archer Mmmmm, a hare burger would do me nicely right about now. |
|
17 Feb 11 - 11:17 AM (#3097198) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Jim Carroll "Jim, I've lived in the hunting heartlands for many years, and not yet seen the Quorn (now there's an ironic name) going hell for leather in hot pursuit of a cow. " I think they would if the cow could run fast enough - no 'sport' in slaughtering anything that can't put up a bit of a show. Sorry Ruth, I've got a bit of a 'thing' about the 'killing for pleasure' mob since I was taken to a coursing at Waterloo as an apprententice and was treated to a grandstand view of a 'string' - two dogs tearing a live hare into two pieces, watched by a mob of enthusiastic 'sportsmen'. Jim Carroll |
|
17 Feb 11 - 11:48 AM (#3097228) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: MGM·Lion I too do find the whole idea of 'blood sports' peculiarly disagreeable and would never dream of taking part. But there is a strong tradition behind them which many people respect. And I sometimes get reminded by some of the more vociferous opponents of Lord Macaulay's saying that the Puritans' objection to bull-baiting was not that it gave pain to the bull, but that it gave pleasure to the spectators. I once quoted that in a newspaper correspondence on the topic, and came home to four literal death threats on my ansafone; which I thought somehow ironic. ~Michael~ |
|
17 Feb 11 - 12:28 PM (#3097250) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Ruth Archer Hi Jim, I understand, and I'm not a big fan of the hunt myself. But I know a lot of people round here who shoot. Yes it's sport that they heartily enjoy, but they also eat what they kill (or give it to their neighbours, ie me). I do like a rabbit or a pheasant - or indeed, a hare, and would never turn one down if it was offered. While the person who killed it might have enjoyed the sport, the animal also had a better quality of life than many farm animals. It's also healthier than most meat. I can understand vegetarians objecting to the whole business. But as a carnivore, I don't have a lot of trouble with the majority of people who shoot for sport, and for the pot, in the countryside. |
|
17 Feb 11 - 12:46 PM (#3097265) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: The Sandman the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible[Oscar Wilde],Foxes may be inedible, but they are also unspeakable, they need to be controlled, around here they are a nuiscance, destroying my poultry, biting off the heads of my ducks and leaving the body, bad luck to foxes. however I favour control by a good marksman, not hunting, if those upper class twats[huntsmen] came on my land , along with members of Fianna Fail,Iwould take great satisfaction in shooting them too |
|
17 Feb 11 - 04:19 PM (#3097458) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: MGM·Lion As I might just have mentioned before, a poster on another forum to which I contribute commented "MtheGM, your pedantry is legendary"; she meant it as a put-down, I suspect, but I took it as an ambivalent sort of compliment. So:~~ what Oscar wrote was "The unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable" ~~ the assonance is lost otherwise. ~M~ |
|
18 Feb 11 - 04:14 AM (#3097734) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,phillip t Back to the Hunting Museum in Melton Mowbray, as you comme in from the direction of Grantham it's on the left hand side just before the town centre. Interesting the spate of chat about hunting. I once stood on Hadrian's Wall, looking down onto a group of men and some dogs hunting a hare, [the hare got away]and it seemed so ancient and 'natural'. [yes I know hopelessly romantic!] But it seems to me that once you add the element of horses it raises the whole class thing, and additionally makes the contest hideously uneven. I think it's no accident that both the Hare and the Fox are creatures surrounded by folklore and myth, approaching reverence. What about hunting the wren on St Stephen's day? Where do the anti hunting brigade stand on that one? If we had to kill our own meat for food, many many more would be vegetarians! There is an ancient principle of law which says that " your right to swing your fist ends where my chin begins" If the Fox [deer, Hare or whatever] is a wild animal then it belongs to me as much as to you, so your right to kill it ends where my right to have it alive to watch and marvel at, begins. cheers |
|
18 Feb 11 - 04:26 AM (#3097738) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,phillip t It's the Melton Carnegie Museum. What I saw was a one year long exhibit in 2005, However all the printed material still exists in the museum.There can't be too many books with a 45rpm record in the back cover! happy hunting! [sorry...bad taste, I couldn't help it!] |
|
09 Jun 11 - 05:38 PM (#3167956) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Liam Collins A point worth mentioning might be the distinction between "hunting" and "coursing" hares, which are two distinct "sports". The hare is "hunted" by scent with a pack of dogs called beagles which can take hours - as per the song "The Innocent Hare". "Coursing" is a series of short competitive high speed hunts by sight, each competition with pair of dogs called greyhounds - as per the song "Master McGrath". Both sports are still popular in Ireland. |
|
10 Jun 11 - 06:19 AM (#3168318) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Steve Parkes And you probably know that a collier is like a beagler, but with a sheepdog. |
|
18 Nov 12 - 03:12 PM (#3438290) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Lonesome EJ Fascinating discussion, as I in turn find the song fascinating. The song has a very catchy tune, but I am struck by the sense of ritual detailed by it, and the honoring of the prey. Whether this sport is and was cruel is left to the individual to assess, but there is no doubt it is as old as the friendship between mankind and the canine. The term relope I have taken to refer to a return by the hare along its previous track and, in conjunction with the phrase "retiring hare", an implication that the hare has gone to ground under a rock, in brush, or a hollow tree, etc. In this situation the dogs would likely be called away to prevent complete destruction of the hare. The adjective "innocent" I also find intriguing. To a modern audience, the term conjures an immediate sympathy with the hare, for it has done no wrong to bring on its death. But I think this may be a more archaic usage, implying ignorance, even dumb instinct in reaction to threat and the chase. Whatever the specific meaning, the song is quite remarkable in that we are shown not only the structure and flow of the hunt, but we also have a sympathetic view of the desperate flight and frantic actions of the prey. At the end of the song, the hunters drink to their success, but also to that of the hare, as if the hare's skillfull avoidance of capture were not only admirable but, in some form, an honorable achievement. But "overthinking" is the flaw of us who are given to analysis of songs that were likely understood on an organic level in their past, and still carry that power, if we let them. |
|
18 Nov 12 - 04:06 PM (#3438305) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Steve Gardham Whilst the jury is still out on this one, I have read through the whole thread and the most significant postings seem to be Jim Ward's of 25 March 2003, 7.35 AM which gives a version of the song that clearly uses the word 'elope'. Couple this with Jon's discovery that in Brasser's earliest book the term was 'alope' and we surely need not look any further, although the Leics use of the term 'relope' is tempting. Then if we take the next significant posting from mcgrathof altcar, 1 Aug, 2004, 5.20 AM the meaning of ELOPE that most fits the spirit of the song is 'a Halloo, to get hounds away, and also notice for men to come away.' then things look a lot clearer. Joe, if the TBI entry hasn't been corrected yet, the description of the song needs altering. The meaning of the song is clearly that the hare is allowed to escape and so is not killed as stated in the description. For many huntsmen the thrill is in the chase, not the kill, so allowing a spirited hare to escape would make for perhaps a repeat performance at some later stage. |
|
18 Nov 12 - 07:40 PM (#3438392) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Lonesome EJ Interesting, Steve. That result...the escape of the hare...makes the "success" salute to the animal much more reasonable, and gives the listener a more sympathetic view of the hunters as well. I like it! For those who may have an interest, I have recorded a version of the song that can be viewed and heard at The Innocent Hare |
|
19 Nov 12 - 03:21 PM (#3438806) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Steve Gardham Very interesting interpretation. A pleasant sound and it makes a nice change to be able to savour the words. I've never heard it performed in such a laid-back way before, but I've been away from the scene for a long while. We always belted it out raucously with multiple harmonies back in the 60s, but it's good to hear other interpretations. I like it! |
|
19 Nov 12 - 04:11 PM (#3438835) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Lonesome EJ Well, Steve, it's a Yank doing it you know, even if a southern-fried Yank. In England, I imagine it's as much a drinking song as a hunting one. I first heard it by mudcatters Rapunzel and Sedayne, who give it a rather haunting sound. When I went back and listened to Young Tradition doing it(after recording my track), I was a bit amazed by that raucous version. It now occurs to me that that is probably the traditional way of doing it. I'm reminded of something Mitch Jane said about the coon dog song Old Blue. He said, to paraphrase, that the Dillards were at a concert where Joan Baez sang such a sad rendition of the song that people were all in tears over this old dog. But, he said, if you were ever trying to use the outhouse on a snowy winter night and some old coon dog was sheltering in there and blocking up the door, you were a lot less likely to sing the song the way Joan Baez does. |
|
19 Nov 12 - 06:44 PM (#3438912) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Artful Codger The Young Tradition version is far from "raucous"--it's only the natural edge in Peter's voice that may give that illusion; rather, it was appropriately spirited and the harmonies were tight. The lack of backing allowed the singers more lattitude to vary the rhythm and expression as needed. Listening to their rendition, even if you knew no English, you'd have a good idea what they were singing about, and you'd get some feeling of authenticity in the delivery. One can learn a lot about what to do and not do listening to such "raucous" performances. |
|
19 Nov 12 - 06:51 PM (#3438915) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: GUEST,Lighter I've checked various imposing dictionaries, including the English Dialect Dictionary of ca1900, and I find no trace of "relope." Presumably it's "elope" as misheard by somebody along the line, not necessarily at first in the song. Perhaps one of the Coppers or their acquaintances was in the habit of using it at one time. |
|
19 Nov 12 - 07:08 PM (#3438921) Subject: RE: 'Innocent Hare' What does 'relope' mean? From: Lonesome EJ Thanks, Artful. I will consider my knuckles appropriately rapped. However, I certainly meant nothing negative by the "raucous" comment, but rather "high spirited", "enthusiastic", "uninhibited", which are all desirable traits in the right context. |
|
18 Mar 13 - 05:13 PM (#3491878) Subject: Lyr Add: THE INNOCENT HARE From: Jim Dixon From London Lavender: An Entertainment by Edward Verrall Lucas (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1912), page 144: [There is also a tune at that source.] [No title is given.] |: Ye sportsmen, rouse the morning fair. The larks are singing in the air. :| |: Go tell your sweet lover the hounds are out. :| Saddle your horses; your saddles prepare. Away to the covers to look for a hare. |: We searched the fields that grows around Our trail is lost; our game is found. :| |: Then out she springs; through brake she flies. :| Follow, follow the musical horn. Sing follow, hark follow, the innocent hare. |: Our horses go galloping over the ground, Go breathing all after the torturing hound. :| |: Such a game she has led us four hours or more. :| Follow, follow the musical horn. Sing follow, hark follow, the innocent hare. |: Our huntsman blows the joyful sound. See how he scours over the ground. :| |: Our hare's a-sinking; see how she creeps. :| Follow, follow, the musical horn. Sing follow, hark follow, the innocent hare. |: All on the green turf she pants for breath. Our huntsman shouts out for death. :| |: Hullo, hullo, we've tired our hare. :| Wine and beer we'll drink without fear. We'll drink success to the innocent hare. |