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30 Mar 03 - 03:53 AM (#921613) Subject: Best way to live and die From: GUEST,Jay Even though I up as a Christian, I had been confused and uninterested in Christianity. I felt like I inherited a mysterious religion beyond understanding. I believe it was for this reason that I was a Christian by name but not in practice. Furthermore, I realized my doubt about Christian beliefs caused me to be in a state of non-religiousness. Nonetheless, while I was searching for the truth, I had a chance to re-examine those beliefs I inherited from my parents yet never bothered to scrutinize. click here or here Lengthy copy-paste non-music article deleted. Please provide a link, plus a summary in your own words. Thanks. -Joe Offer-
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30 Mar 03 - 04:31 AM (#921618) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: BanjoRay If you start applying strict logic to any religious literature, it always falls apart. Reductio ad absurdum. The whole point about faith is - you believe it anyway! Which is why I don't. Shouldn't this be BS? Ray |
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30 Mar 03 - 10:31 AM (#921739) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: mack/misophist An equivalent examination of the Koran has equivalent results. |
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30 Mar 03 - 11:37 AM (#921787) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk The problem with interpreting religious writings in a literal and logical fashion is this: they were never intended to be interpreted that way. Do you interpret poetry in a literal fashion? Not usually, but sometimes. It's the same with religious writings which are very akin to poetry. Religious writings are full of allegory, symbolism on many different levels, and parables. If you insist on interpreting their every word and line through the literal, logical mind you will encounter contradictions, non-sequitors, and arrive at totally pointless and silly conclusions...or else just swallow it all and become a doctrinal fanatic. This does not in any way invalidate religious writings...it invalidates an earthbound, unimaginative approach to interpreting religious writings. Dear Jay...is God infinite? If so, then God does not begin in one place and end in another. If so, then God is not only outside you but also inside you (and inside everyone and everything else). If so, God is not only One but is also many, and can be seen as a singularity (of All That Is), a duality (of apparent opposites, such as light and darkness, positive and negative, male and female, etc), a trinity (of body, mind, & spirit...or Father, Mother, and Child...or whatever else you like), a 4-part Divinity, a 5-part Divinity, or a 25 million-part Divinity, or an 85-trillion part Divinity revealed in every single thing that IS or ever shall be. Stop just thinking literally, stop counting how many angels there are on the head of a pin (I'm speaking allegorically when I say that)...and THINK! And you will then find that All the great religious traditions are different ways of expressing the Truth about God (or about Life)...each in a unique and beautiful way...and you don't NEED to take one of those traditions and claim its the Only right one...because it's not. There is no Only right tradition. They are all valid ways of seeing the Truth. And if you believe that, you will seek brotherhood and human unity, rather than perpetuating misunderstanding, fear, and division. - LH |
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30 Mar 03 - 12:38 PM (#921844) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: GUEST,Richard L PBUH! I like that! I can swear all I want and nobody will know. |
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30 Mar 03 - 01:33 PM (#921880) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: paulo GUEST Jay - for someone uninterested in christianity you've read a lot of stuff. paulo |
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30 Mar 03 - 05:45 PM (#922014) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Dead Horse Best to live slow, and die fast. Not the other way round. What's religeon got to do with it? |
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30 Mar 03 - 06:02 PM (#922024) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Don Firth Religion is myth. By saying this, I don't mean "religion is myth and a myth is a story that is not true, therefore religion is not true." Myth usual describes, by metaphor, a truth about the essential nature of things. It is not the truth. It is A truth. The mistake is in believing that the metaphor is the literal truth. The response should not be a statement, such as "Now I know the Truth," but a question, such as "What is this trying to teach me?" For example:-- What is important is not whether Jesus was really born of a virgin (it is a convention of mythology that all "special" persons, such as kings, gods, heroes, etc., were born in some miraculous manner), but what did Jesus say and how did Jesus live? If you get hung up on the obstetric details, you're missing the point. IMO Don Firth |
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30 Mar 03 - 06:26 PM (#922045) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Forum Lurker Most religious texts were, at the time of writing, intended to be taken literally. It is certainly the case that the commandments are not metaphors. I find it hard to believe that when the Levirate priests spoke in the temples, they expected their audiences to assume that the biblical stories were allegories, or that the Apostles meant the Resurrection to be examined for symbolism. It is simply the case that the writers of ancient religious texts didn't have the scientific tools to know what we know now. Their versions of creation were based on what they knew at the time, as were their accounts of historical events. They did not always speak in complex metaphors; sometimes they were simply wrong. |
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30 Mar 03 - 06:32 PM (#922049) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: katlaughing IMO, they were meant to be taken in a metaphysical sense, i.e. the "rapture" would not be a literal event involving the masses, but an internal event of each individual at some point in their life. Also, the scriptures, i.e. the Bible was not meant for the masses exactly because it was understood how much misinterpretation there might be by those unversed in profound metaphysics. kat |
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30 Mar 03 - 06:40 PM (#922055) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Forum Lurker katlaughing-Who WAS versed in "profound metaphysics" when the books were written? Are you honestly claiming that God instilled within Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed an innate understanding of divine metaphor, and then commanded them to tell a bunch of herders these complicated allegories without any note of the fact that they sould not be taken as literal truth? Why make a messy metaphor when you could just tell people outright? Is the value of figuring it out for yourself truly greater than the lives and effort that would have been saved by plain speech? |
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30 Mar 03 - 06:52 PM (#922066) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Padre "So live, that when thy summons comes to join The innumerable caravan, which moves To that mysterious realm, where each shall take His chamber in the silent halls of death, Thou go not, like the quarry-slave at night Scourged to his dungeon, but, sustained and soothed By an unfaltering trust, approach thy grave Like one who wraps the drapery of his couch About him, and lies down to pleasant dreams." William Cullen Bryant, Thanatopsis |
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30 Mar 03 - 06:55 PM (#922068) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk Lurker - Plenty of people were versed in profound metaphysics back when those books were written. Probably more people, per capita, than are now...given the fact that we are living in a very materialistic society that is mostly obsessed with money and marketing. Ever hear of the mystery schools? Given the fact that you were born in one of the most spiritually bankrupt societies of all time, I could understand it if you haven't. I repeat, religious writings were very often not meant to be taken literally...just as is the case with much poetry. While the general public (those goatherders you referred to) then, as now, tended to interpret religious writings (and everything else) literally, the serious spiritual apprentices and adepts who taught them at the mystery schools and monasteries and such places DID NOT. People like that are so rare nowadays that I can easily imagine you've not encountered them while watching TV or listening to the radio (which are a cultural wasteland, generally speaking). - LH |
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30 Mar 03 - 07:00 PM (#922071) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Forum Lurker Little Hawk-Remind me where such mystery schools were to be found in 1800 BCE in the Sinai Peninsula. Further, if someone truly understood such profound metaphysics, why would they spend their life telling it to a bunch of goatherds who they knew would proceed to take every last metaphor literally? |
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30 Mar 03 - 07:01 PM (#922073) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk By the way, everyone has their own best way to live and die, and that's as it should be. Same goes for religions...everyone has their own best way to approach that, and that's as it should be. If your best way is atheism, that's cool too. That is probably just what suits you best, you see. Try not to let it lull you into a false sense of superiority, though... It's got nothing to do with being superior. - LH |
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30 Mar 03 - 07:16 PM (#922091) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Don Firth Literally? I'm not so sure of that, FL. Considering the literacy levels in the eras we're talking about here, those who could write at all tended to be scholars of one kind or another. And any reading up on mythology and story-telling in general--especially stories of a religious nature--will indicate that there were solidly established conventions for this kind of narration, and they were pretty much pandemic. These conventions included a lot of metaphor, and story elements that we would probably now refer to as "boilerplate." Again, referring to the way such things as the miraculous birth of heroes was narrated. And the manner in which these heroes died or otherwise left the earth. These are only two of the common elements of such stories. This, combined with some of the strange interpretations of scripture when some enigmatic phrase appears that was plainly understood at the time and in the environment in which the story was told, but due to cultural ignorance, we try to give it a modern interpretation and come up getting it all wrong. This happens a lot in books like the Bible. I've done a little scholarly work along this line, and I can cite example after example. Hard-charging evangelists and others who tend to quote Bible verses out of context usually wind up hating my guts. Often in a less than Christian way. It's not that I'm unreligious. It's just that I don't like seeing religious texts reduced to the level of, say, the Boy Scout Handbook. Don Firth |
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30 Mar 03 - 07:20 PM (#922094) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: katlaughing Some of the mystery schools date back to the time of ancient Egypt. Thanks for posting about them, LH. |
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30 Mar 03 - 07:21 PM (#922095) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk You should not carelessly underestimate the values or capabilities of goatherders, lurker. :-) I have herded goats. I've known some brilliant people who've done even more bucolic things than that, and I've met complete asses who had PHD's from prestigious universities here and there. Jesus told parables to uncountable thousands. Some got the parables, some didn't. So it has ever been. You do your best to help people understand a spiritual message, and if they don't, then you just shrug and try again. - LH |
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30 Mar 03 - 07:27 PM (#922101) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk Yeah. What Don said... |
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30 Mar 03 - 07:28 PM (#922102) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Forum Lurker I'm not saying goatherders are stupid. I'm simply pointing out that they may not have the analytical tools that most modern-day theologians use when assigning metaphorical meaning to religious texts. Also, I still don't see why a divine force would speak in metaphor if it expected everyone to know what it wanted. Being deliberately obfuscatory is a quality seldom ascribed to a benevolent God. |
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30 Mar 03 - 07:53 PM (#922118) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: CraigS Guest Jay seems to ignore that bit in the Qran where the baby Iesu speaks from the cradle to defend the status of his birth and his mother's honour. The Christ states that he is the son of God in this passage. I've got to say that the Qran makes the book of Mormon look interesting, but according to Muslims it is entirely true and not a matter for discussion, although it was apparently written by a man who could not write ,and after his death to boot. A Hindu friend of mine once told me that there are many paths to enlightenment, and Christianity is one. He did not consider Islam enlightening. |
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30 Mar 03 - 08:03 PM (#922122) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Homeless Two reasons. People don't want something they are given, because they don't value it as much as something they've earned (by figuring out). Second, not everyone is ready for a message at the same time. For example, take a group of 100 random individuals. Hand them a calculus book. Do you supposed it would make sense to all 100 of them? |
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30 Mar 03 - 08:13 PM (#922128) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Sorcha Best way to live and die--yes, live slow and die fast, WITH DOGS!!! |
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30 Mar 03 - 08:19 PM (#922132) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Troll Live like a lion and die without pain. troll |
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30 Mar 03 - 09:47 PM (#922183) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Forum Lurker Well, no, Homeless, but that's different. You didn't get to decide the rules of calculus, or the ability of people to learn it. A creator deity can usually do anything it wants, so if we fail to get the message, it's because either we, the message, or both were made in such a fashion that we wouldn't get it. |
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30 Mar 03 - 10:00 PM (#922187) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Troll Which doesn't say much for the Creator. Unless, of course, the Creator wants you to really WORK at getting it, somehing most people are unwilling to do. They want the whole thing to take 5 minutes so they don't miss anything of their favorite TV shows. troll |
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30 Mar 03 - 10:03 PM (#922189) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Forum Lurker Troll-The question then becomes, "Why does the creator force us to toil?" It cannot be to improve our character, because he may create us as he wills. It can only be because something about the labor iteslf is pleasing to him. Generally, people who enjoy watching others work towards a difficult goal, and seeing many fail entirely, knowing all the while that he could give them the answers without any loss to anyone, is called a sadist. People get offended when you call God a sadist, though. |
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30 Mar 03 - 10:04 PM (#922191) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk Lurker - Yeah, fair enough. Okay, a couple of comments... You said: "Also, I still don't see why a divine force would speak in metaphor if it expected everyone to know what it wanted." Where do I start? It doesn't want anything. It's people who want things. How can something that IS everything want anything? :-) That which we (sometimes) term "God" does not have a list of wants, requirements, commandments, etc...although you will find these lists in various religious traditions. Men have made up those lists. They did so because of a slight misinterpretation. The 10 Commandments, for instance, were not commandments at all...they were committments. They were promises of what would naturally occur in someone's life if they followed a godly or enlightened path...and worked from a godly or enlightened understanding. That is, if you are reasonably enlightened you will discover that you do not steal, you do not lie, you do not murder, you do respect your parents, etc...it will just naturally tend to go that way when you are in what could be termed a godly state of mind. Don't believe me? Well, try it. It might work. I'll tell you one thing, it works a hell of a lot better than lying, stealing, murdering, etc...but don't take my word for it, chaps...test it by actual experience. Like I said, God doesn't want anything...God simply IS, that's all. God is a continual and omnipresent process of Life and existence that is ("I Am That I Am"). All this, of course, is speculative as far as you may be concerned. Pick your version of what it is according to your prejudices, and feel free to believe what you wish about it! :-) Now, as to Jesus, yes, he said he was "the Son of God", but did he say he was the ONLY one? In another passage he said "Ye are all gods and sons of the Most High"! And that's what I believe. We are all Sons and Daughters of God. Every last one of us. What distinguished Jesus was, he had fully developed the potential inherent in that, and he had put it into powerful and beautiful action. Not many people do that, but everyone has within them the possibility of doing it...as soon as they decide to. And that is truly marvelous. Anybody want to talk about Shatner now? :-) - LH |
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30 Mar 03 - 11:09 PM (#922223) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: katlaughing God - the Cosmic is impersonal. Humankind has free will. Generally humankind has proven, time and again, that when things are handed to them, without merit, they fail miserably at the BIG PICTURE things of life. God - the Cosmic has no feelings, one way or another as to how much people toil, who "gets it" or who doesn't. God wished for us each to have all that we need and/or desire, BUT only as we believe and there's the rub. It is extremely difficult for any of us to believe so strongly and fully, as Jesus did, that we let go of our "little wills" entirely and beocme one with God, as he did. The paradox is as LH pointed out: we are all of us part of God, but we are out of sync for most of the time with that part of ourselves, that Higher Consciousness. We are each one of us at a certain and individual point in our soul's growth and it is up to us as to how much we are open to learning the lessons which come to us and which, if we follow them, can lead to the attainment Jesus had, as LH has pointed out. Of course, that is my interpretation, your mileage may vary.:-) Also, it matters not what path one chooses to follow, Jesus, Mahomet, Buddha...all can lead to the same thing, enlightenment and AtONEness with the Cosmic/Creator/God/Goddess, etc. kat |
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30 Mar 03 - 11:20 PM (#922226) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Forum Lurker Little Hawk-If God has no motivating desires, why does God do anything? Any action must be inspired by a cause or motive. Further, the Hebrew of the Ten Commandments is in the imperative, not the future, tense. They are definately commands, not descriptions of what will happen. katlaughing-Why is it that we have difficulty believing? God made us, so God must have wished us to have difficulty believing in God. |
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31 Mar 03 - 04:00 AM (#922286) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: katlaughing I am not sure, at all, that I believe god "made us." I do believe we are children of the Universe, a part of the Cosmic which makes up everything. Again, I believe free will is the biggest stumbling block known to humankind. Even if god did make us, we still have free will. It is up to us to beieve or not. Believing can sometimes be very, very difficult because of what I think of as our "little self," or mundane mind, can come up with all kinds of reasons NOT to believe, esp. in a materialistic world which sends out all kinds of negative messages to fill our minds. Exercising free will to the best of our ability, for our own enlightenment and to help others, takes a great deal of discipline. It is not at all measurable in black and whiite, simplistic terms. kat |
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31 Mar 03 - 07:36 AM (#922363) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: PeteBoom If you're looking for what is really said in any religious text, find the oldest available source and read that. Translations are nothing but a paraphrase of what was said. "Revisions" are spins on the paraphrase. In answer to title of the thread - Head up, shoulders back, face to you enemy (whomever or whatever it may be). Pete |
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31 Mar 03 - 08:59 AM (#922423) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Forum Lurker katlaughing-Saying that we are part of the Cosmic that makes up everything seems circular-we are part of something that everything is part of. Free will seems to me, rather than a stumbling block, the sole reason for human existence. If you cannot determine your own course, what point is there to life? If we weren't made by a God, what is it that gives God authority over us, if any (God or authority) exists? |
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31 Mar 03 - 11:14 AM (#922585) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: katlaughing I meant it was a stumbling block in that we separate ourselves from god-the cosmic by our free will. If the goal in most spiritual paths is to be at one with god/cosmic then we have to allow god's will to take over, completely and really become at one, as Jesus did. This is very difficult for most of us to do because we have nagging doubts, desires, needs, etc. I believe in reincarnation and I believe we are here to learn lessons from our experiences. If we are open to those lessons, imo, we progress to a higher level of consciousness each lifetime. Someday we may even attain enlightenment and become as one with god/cosmic at which point we will have no desires, attachments, etc. because god has no needs, attachments, etc. We reach this point, as I said, through lessons learned, through our thoughts, meditations, and actions, and through letting go of ego. |
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31 Mar 03 - 11:17 AM (#922587) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk Lurker - I think you are sort of right there: free will IS the sole reason for human existence. I think God (the process of Life itself) gives everyone free will. An overriding intelligence which gives free will does not issue commandments! A command presupposes the denial OF free will (as in the military...when the soldier receives a command he is not expected to use his free will and do something else, he is expected to obey that command). Therefore, as it's abundantly clear to me that God (Life) has provided humans with a tremendous measure of free will (provided they are willing to have the courage to use it) then Life has not issued any Commandments! Why is it worded in the Hebrew writings as Commandments? Because the people at that time, including the scribes who wrote that stuff down, were incapable of imagining a divine being who would not be authoritative, judgmental, wrathful, and punishing...because that was the kind of behaviour they took for granted. That was what they were like, and they naturally saw the Divine in their own image (as does pretty well everbody who believes in a divine being or power). They got it partially wrong. But they were not wrong in perceiving that there was a divine force and presence behind and within reality. You are exactly correct that if one cannot determine one's own course, then there is no point in life. Right on! And that's why we have free will...absolutely free will. At all times. In that respect, we are godlike...not surprisingly...because, as I said, we are all Sons and Daughters of Life (God) and are in the process of emulating that from which we sprang...through constant evolution and self-development. That takes (usually) many physical lifetimes, not just one lifetime. A physical body simply doesn't last long enough to get it all down in one lifetime. So when it wears out or gets "killed", then the energetic soul that formed it a cell at a time, and gave it consciousness, sets about at some point forming another physical body (through the normal biological mechanisms of conception) and has another go at experimenting with the wonders of free will in a physical World full of possibilities. To study this sort of thing you don't need to read just one book (the Bible, the Koran, the Upanishads, etc)....you would be better off to read all of them, and to also read Taoist writings, North American Indian subject matter, and everything else you can find that's "spiritual" in nature, plus science books, and philosophy. In all of them you will find recurrent themes that may lead you to bredkthroughs in perception. Or maybe you won't. Depends on your own basic nature, and that's up to you. You also asked: "If God has no motivating desires, why does God do anything?" Ah. That's a BIG question! I said that God doesn't want anything. "Want" means "lack". What is everything lacks nothing, therefore desires nothing. But...God just naturally does things, because God is the very process of change and action itself (as well as the process of rest between actions). God may also do things simply in order to see what will happen. In other words, like any powerful intelligence, God is not content to rest on his/her/its laurels and stay in a comfortable rut forever, but prefers to experience new things and achieve new things on a regular basis. God = Life = Change. Without change, everything becomes static...dead...frozen. With change everything becomes lively, enlivened, moving, new, developing, improving, evolving, happening. God is that very process of Life and of Change. Religious authorities don't like change! They want everything to be written down on a stone tablet or in a sacred text, and held rigidly that way forever! They are not enlightened. They want to kill the very process that is Life. And they are the ones who took the committments and turned them into Commandments! (Oooooo...scary! scary!) They were the scribes and pharisees. They were the guys who killed Jesus. They are the guys who run most churches. They are the guys who call you "a sinner". They are usually (but not always) males. A lot of scientific authorities don't like Change either! (specially if it invalidates a long-held pet theory of theirs) And you will see them opposing it mightily, unless they thought of it themselves! In this respect, they are exactly like religious fundamentalists in their thinking. Since God is the very process of change, movement, and doing and using free will...God doesn't have to exactly desire something in order to initiate change...God merely has to be what God already is. Does the wind blow out of a desire to blow or does the wind just blow because that is its nature? Or is it both? (laughing) Like I said, you asked a BIG question there. Fascinating. See if you can come up with your own unique answer to it. - LH |
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31 Mar 03 - 11:24 AM (#922590) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: katlaughing Well said, LH! |
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31 Mar 03 - 11:30 AM (#922598) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Alasdair I used to be a very religious Christian but packed it in quite a while ago. The Bible is indeed full of contradictions, and organised religious structures use the bits of it that they like to promote the beliefs, values and prejudices that they happen to believe in. My views are very well discussed in Phillip Pullman's triology His Dark Materials, which ultimately argues that man is essentially a physical and mental being; that there is nothing inherantly sinful or wrong with people; and that throughout the ages the various religions have tried to use "spirituality" to make people feel guilty, to therby control them, and to suppress knowledge and innovation. If you want to believe in God and the Bible, try to stick to the good bits such as, "He has shown you oh man what is good, and what does the Lord require of you but to act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." Cheers Al |
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31 Mar 03 - 11:36 AM (#922601) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Little Hawk-I'm afraid that the only answers I can come up with are ones you would disagree with wholeheartedly. The problem includes the biggest question any philosophical system has to answer: "Why is there evil in the world?" Unfortunately, the only answers I can see are that there is no God, or that he enjoys human suffering. Elsewise, why would we be mortal, subject to pain, disease, and death? I can accept that human cruelty is a necessary part of free will, but uncontrollable suffering is pointless and serves only to hurt us and drive us farther apart. |
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31 Mar 03 - 11:38 AM (#922602) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Alasdair What ForumLurker said. If there is a God out there, then he is one sick puppy. Al |
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31 Mar 03 - 11:46 AM (#922613) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: katlaughing IMO, the problem is that you are still thinking of god as a personality as a real human would be. It is humankind and its free will which brings about suffering, not god. That's the whole deal with free will...god does not override our free will, unless we give up ego, etc. entirely, without question, at which point we've reached nirvana and none of it matters anymore because we see the BIG PICTURE. God just IS without feelings, without agendas, without anything ego-based. |
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31 Mar 03 - 12:02 PM (#922631) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Peg "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us." Gandalf |
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31 Mar 03 - 01:27 PM (#922719) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Live free, die well. |
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31 Mar 03 - 01:54 PM (#922749) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: GUEST,Froum Lurker katlaughing-How does age, or Parkinson's, or Tay-Sachs, or any disease come about as a result of our free will? Suffering exists which is purely the result of the way the world works, and as such can be ascribed to one cause alone: God. Further, if Nirvana is where God would like us to be, why aren't we created there? Why are enlightenment and ego exclusive, when ego is what makes us who we are? |
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31 Mar 03 - 02:24 PM (#922769) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: katlaughing It is my belief that we choose to come into this world to experience a certain malady in order to learn from that malady. I also believe that karma comes into it. Suffering comes about through the actions, thoughts, etc. of humankind, not because of god, imo. Ego is exclusive from enlightenment because to have ego, to realise self, is to automatically separate ourselves from god/cosmic. When we do that, we are also disconnecting from that which IS god/enlightenment/cosmic. I am talking in absolutes here, please understand. I believe we are all *tuned in* to some extent all of the time, BUT what matters is if we are paying attention and letting our "higher selves" i.e. our *god selves* come through. It's just too easy to blame god/cosmic for all of the ills of the world, esp. when one considers free will. When one says it is all god's fault, etc., one is refusing to take responsibility for where they are at in consciousness, which creates the world they live in. Our minds, imo, are like a computer. They take in everything that we input without regard for negative or positive effects. If we *program* it with negative thoughts, images, sounds, etc. then, as it is programmed, so it works to manifest that for which it is programmed. This is a simplistic explanation, because many other factors, i.e. karma, etc. can come into play, but it helps to illustrate my point about how someone can use their free will to create their life experiences. Sometimes a person can be effected by the actions of others, through no conscious choice of their own. This is another instance, though, of humankind wreaking havoc on one another. I am NOT saying people sit around and say things like today I will manifest parkinson's or whatever for myself. Often I don't believe people are even aware of how their living ways and thoughts can be manifested in their lives. I also think people are not aware of how their environment, even the whole world's environment, can effect them and that is something we can lay completely at the feet of humankind, not god. kat |
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31 Mar 03 - 03:11 PM (#922804) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Don Firth That's a bingo, Little Hawk. Well said. Since I was about six years old, I haven't been able to accept the picture of God as a cranky old man dressed in a toga, sitting on Arturus Twelve, and granting blessings and hurling thunderbolts at people who please Him or piss Him off. Yet, lots of people do. The personification of God is strictly man-made, and that's where we get into trouble. The problem of Evil. Whether something is evil or not seems to be a matter of human interpretation. Is a hurricane that wipes out a coastline and kills a lot of people evil? From our viewpoint, yes. But to Nature, it's neutral—just something that happens, an unavoidable natural process. Is a serial murderer evil? He's sick, warped, and has to be stopped or restrained. We still don't know how he got that way. How about someone like Hitler? It's hard for me not to say that he was evil, but what was he other than a madman and a serial murderer on a grand scale? It's more of a problem in psychology than one in theology. Bad things happen. That's the nature of life. If something evil (detrimental to human life) happens, we naively ask why God (the process of Life itself) allows this to happen. Well . . . it's just part of the process of Life. Was the meteor that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago evil? From the viewpoint of the dinosaurs, yes, indeed. But that allowed mammals to come to the fore and evolve, eventually producing us. From our viewpoint, that's good. (Future species may judge otherwise.) Just thinkin' out loud here. . . . By the way, kat, I hope you're right about reincarnation. I'm just starting to get the hang of this Life thing, and I'd like to be able to keep at it until I eventually get it right. Don Firth |
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31 Mar 03 - 03:14 PM (#922810) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: katlaughing Don, from what I can tell, you've got lots of Karmic Brownie Points, so I think you'll really enjoy the next time!:-) |
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31 Mar 03 - 04:04 PM (#922843) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Kim C How did I get depression of my own free will? It was my own free will to finally do something about it, but if it were entirely up to me, I would have rather not had the experience at all. |
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31 Mar 03 - 04:17 PM (#922855) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk Exactly, Don. What we call "evil" is often just the process of life itself. Other than that, what we call "evil" is the unwise use of human free will...and we see a great deal of that. It isn't God who ordains evil...it's human interpretation of results that are damaging to certain parties that labels such results (and the actions that led to those results) as "evil". That's perfectly normal. What we think is good or evil is one way in which we define who we ARE, and that's important in developing our sense of identity, so that's why we do it. If nothing "evil" existed...then how would we know what "good" is? If cold didn't exist, how would we know what hot is? If up didn't exist, how would we know what down is? That is why evil must necessarily play some part in the unfolding processes of Life. God does not wish or deliver evil upon anybody. People do. They define it, they label it, and they frequently practice it in small ways or large, according to their own or someone else's definition of it. They're practicing it right now in Iraq...on both sides. To blame it on God is just downright silly. Be thankful that God has allowed us all a full measure of free will and free expression, and has allowed it to everyone else as well, instead of managing us all like puppets so that everything can be "Good"...in your estimation of what you think "good" is. That would be the end of both free will AND evolutionary progress. - LH |
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31 Mar 03 - 04:57 PM (#922890) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Forum Lurker I understand what you're saying, but I think it still fails to address an important point: Why is it that, rather than creating us with what we need, we are forced to learn through trial and error, which is both painful and often unsuccesful? Why learn from a malady when you can simply possess the knowledge without suffering? Why undergo evolution towards a goal when you can simply begin at the goal? You don't need to have dinosaurs, then wipe them out, then go through 65 million years of suffering to get people. You can just start with the humans from the outset, and if you want dinosaurs too, stick them in wherever you want. God is cosmic and all-powerful. For God, there are no means which must be justified by the end; everything can be an end whenever and however God wishes it. It is thus incomprehensible to me why a benevolent God would create needless suffering. There is much suffering that is the fault of humans, but much that is not as well. There is no reason for the latter. |
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31 Mar 03 - 05:14 PM (#922914) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk It's subjective. You catch a fish, and the fish perceives suffering. You perceive a good catch, are happy, and you eat the fish, and you see the situation as very good. How can you claim an eternal exemption from what the fish experienced...suffering and death? You can't. You came to a physical existence, and like the fish you too must face your own limitations on a frequent basis. That entails suffering. This is why many spiritual philosophies state that Life IS suffering. I don't agree with that viewpoint. Life is all things, and suffering is just part of the picture. Life is also joy, struggle, play, accomplishment, puzzlement, wonder, laughter, work, and so on. And that's good. It would be dull if we were already at "the goal". What would be the point of that? It's no fun playing a great game of chess if you're already at the checkmate before you thought of the first move! And it's not much fun playing a game of chess that's so easy (because of a weak opponent) that you win every time in 7 moves or less. A good game of chess involves risk, struggle, and suffering. And you learn a lot from it that way. You become much better at it. Suffering is a step on the road to greater accomplishment and greater joy. And we do have exactly what we need...we just don't necessarily have what we consciously want at any given time. And people call that "suffering". I'd call it "motivation". Where would we be without motivation? Most of the time, I find Life to be pretty good. Not perfect, just pretty good. I imagine the dinosaurs enjoyed Life most of the time too. Most animals do. I've watched them, and they look more relaxed and happy than a lot of people I know. People think too much (in a certain sense), and they "want" too much. That makes them unhappy. People need to cultivate more gratitude. - LH |
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31 Mar 03 - 05:39 PM (#922937) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: katlaughing Thanks, LH, well put, again.:-) |
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31 Mar 03 - 06:11 PM (#922972) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Forum Lurker Little Hawk-No one dies in chess. If "suffering is a step on the road towards greater accomplishment and greater joy," then why won't God pick up any hitchhikers? Many people do not have what they need, unless you consider survival merely a "want." |
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31 Mar 03 - 11:08 PM (#923123) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk I was using the example of chess as a parable or a metaphor for the game of life. :-) So here we are back to parable and metaphor again... You know, the way some people play chess (me included), you would think their lives DID depend on it! What I mean when I say everyone has what they "need" is a little mysterious, I'll admit, but it hangs on this: I don't believe we live just one physical life. I believe we live many. Accordingly, the soul gets what it needs, although the body may not, from the body's point of view, in certain difficult circumstances. I don't believe I am the body, I'm just making use of it at the moment in order to have this life experience here and now. If you don't believe that, however, then we are talking somewhat at cross purposes. Regarding the nature of evil, there's a very interesting book I could recommend, by a psychiatrist, called "People of the Lie". It's a superb book, revealing much about dysfunctional emotional states in people who could be termed "evil" in their nature. Check it out if you can. Regarding spiritual philosophy, I highly recommend "Conversations With God - Volume 1" by Neale Donald Walsch. Don't be put off by the title...just read the book with an open mind, and see what it tells you. You will find a boatload of common sense in it, whether or not you believe in "God" or in anything spiritual. Seriously. Anyone who is willing to think creatively would enjoy those 2 books. - LH |
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01 Apr 03 - 12:31 AM (#923153) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Forum Lurker Little Hawk-Well, I don't necessarily believe in reincarnation, but it's certainly one of the most appealing ideas I've heard. I don't think that the soul always gets what it needs, though; too many people die young and/or senselessly for it to be perfect like that. I'll try those books and see what they have to say. |
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01 Apr 03 - 12:33 AM (#923155) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk Put it another way: God provides, we decide. That is, God provides the chessboard, the chess pieces, the table, the chairs, the hands to pick up the pieces, the eyes to see them, the rule book for how the game is played, the brain to reason out the moves and strategy, the emotional structure to do the "psyching out" of the opponent and strengthening of self...and we decide what to do with all that stuff, using our free will to do it. Some play the game well, some play poorly, some refuse to play at all (by, for example, committing suicide...). It's up to us how we play the game of life, but we can only work with what is within the actual parameters of the game. Science is a very useful tool for examining those parameters on the outer physical and energy levels. Religion and philosophy and psychology are very useful tools for examining those parameters on more subtle (inner) levels. - LH |
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01 Apr 03 - 09:55 AM (#923495) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk You know, it is certainly ironical that Guest, Jay started this thread, apparently with the intention of converting us all to Islam... He then disappeared. Must have gotten scared off, I guess. Well, it's been most enjoyable. Thanks, Jay! - LH |
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01 Apr 03 - 10:19 PM (#924092) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Bill D quite apart from the discussion, did ANYONE besides me immediately realize that this was a big copy 'n paste? It is part of a LONG dissertation by one Donald W. Flood. (I have been catching up on Mudcat for 2 days now after being out of town.) Look here and here I thought long copy/pastes was against the rules? |
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02 Apr 03 - 12:28 AM (#924175) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk You mean the original post was? I can't seem to load your two links for some reason. |
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02 Apr 03 - 01:35 AM (#924210) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: katlaughing The links worked for me. Thanks, Bill, I wondered if it was a c&p, then got busy with other things, came back and the thing was going, the thread I mean. Long c&p's are not supposed to happen. I'll send Joe a PM. Still the thread has been enjoyable. kat |
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02 Apr 03 - 07:07 PM (#924864) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Rapparee I want to die quickly and quietly, like my grandfather, not screaming and crying like the passengers in the plane he was flying. |
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02 Apr 03 - 11:29 PM (#924987) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk (Snort!) From the sublime to the outright silly... Sounds like normal around here. Why is it that no one has yet admitted to wanting to die in the arms of Margaret Thatcher? - LH |
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03 Apr 03 - 09:55 PM (#925742) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Rapparee Good God(dess), LH! What kind of pervert are you, anyway? |
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03 Apr 03 - 10:13 PM (#925749) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk Ask Rick Fielding about that. He keeps making up the most outrageous stories about me on this forum. Well, at least he compliments my musical skills, so that's okay. :-) - LH |
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03 Apr 03 - 11:50 PM (#925806) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Ebbie There's one thing about you that puzzles me, though, LH. I have not found Rick Fielding to utter an untruth so I have to believe- but just how do you lengthen your body when you're Little Hawk and shorten it when you're being Teribus? |
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04 Apr 03 - 12:45 PM (#926155) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk Ebbie - Ri-i-i-i-i-i-ght. Yes, well, that is a conundrum, isn't it? Have I forwarded you that great offer I received by email recently? No? I'll paste it in below: MIRACLE SPELLING COURSE! LEARN TO SPELL "IN THREE DAYS!!!" Do you have trouble spelling simple, common words? Words like "wrestle" and "soda pop"? We bet you do! Well, relief is just days away... Apply for the Slobodovich Miracle Spelling Course NOW!!! In 3 days or less you will find, (YOUR NAME), that you can correctly spell not only simple words and phrases like "Wiarton Willie", but even more complicated ones like: "My concubine has a tremendous cucumber lodged in her vestibule." Think how much your self esteem will increase! Think how much more other people will respect you, realizing that you, (YOUR NAME), are not a dumbass, but a highly educated and cultured gent/lady! Just for a teaser, we are going to give you the first part of our 3 day course ABSOLUTELY FREE!!!! YES! THAT'S WHAT WE SAID! ABSOLUTELY FREE!!! Are you ready? Right then. Here we go. Lesson 1: How to spell the word "in". Now "in" is a deceptively simple word that many people have great difficulty spelling. Some get it confused with "inn" (which means a restaurant, bed & breakfast, etc.). Others get it confused with "inne" which means the same as "inn" only it's more old-fashioned. Some even get it confused with "out" because they're dyslexic...or just confused. Be confused no more! Just take a letter "i" and write or type it. Now take a letter "n" and write or type it immediately after the "i", and PRESTO! You have the common and useful word "in" correctly spelled, and will be admired and respected by people everywhere. You have now completed the first 1/3 of your 3 Day Course! It's amazingly easy, isn't it? Do you feel more confident now, (YOUR NAME)? We thought you did! Please send a cheque or money order for $500 to Yurko Slobodovich, Box 99, Coldwater, Ontario for the remainder of your 3 part course on spelling. You will NOT be disappointed! Keep tuned for our next great course: LEARN TO PRONOUNCE "NUKULAR"!!! |
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04 Apr 03 - 12:53 PM (#926164) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Rick Fielding Actually I lie all the time Ebbie.....but never about Littlehawk. I DO forget a lot though. What DID I say about him? That nobody's ever seen him and GUEST in the same room together? Not to embarrass the boy any further, but I DO think he has the most consistantly thought out and logical political opinions on the cat. It really MAY be all that stuff about NOT growing up with a TV!! Rick |
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04 Apr 03 - 09:12 PM (#926465) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk You're a rascal, Rick, but thou speakest a jawful. TV eats brain cells at an astonishing rate. It's a moot point what destroys more brain cells per hour, TV or Hi-octane Newfie Screech (the kind you burn in a spoon to show your pals how strong it is). A combination of the two is absolutely deadly. I've got a few simple recommendations for living a good life and retaining a youthful appearance: a)Abstain from television. b)Abstain from cigarettes and dope and other similar drugs. c)Drink very little alcohol, and when you do, drink it for the taste. d)Abstain from prescription drugs unless absolutely necessary! e)Don't get legally married! (there is the odd exception to this one, however...some people react rather well to marriage) f)exercise & walk a lot g)play music frequently h)laugh frequently i)breathe slowly and deeply, do breathing exercises j)meditate regularly k)admire lizards and alligators* *(the last one is optional) - LH |
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05 Apr 03 - 10:36 AM (#926659) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: *daylia* What's optional about alligators, LH? My students all use "alligators" to help them count sixteenth-note rhythms! I definitely recommend them as one of the finer things of life. I like these pointers for good living from the Dalai Lama. Sorry I can't link you to them, but here goes anyway ... Enjoy! A Message from Dalai Lama 1. Take into account that great love and great achievements involve great risk. 2. When you lose don't lose the lesson. 3. Follow the three Rs: Respect for self, Respect for others and Responsibility for all your actions. 4. Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderful stroke of luck. 5. Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly. 6. Don't let a little dispute injure a great friendship. 7. When you realize you've made a mistake, take immediate steps to correct it. 8. Spend some time alone every day. 9. Open your arms to change, but don't let go of your values. 10. Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer. 11. Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time. 12. A loving atmosphere in your home is the foundation for your life. 13. In disagreements with loved ones, deal only with the current situation. Don't bring up the past. 14. Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality. 15. Be gentle with the earth. 16. Once a year, go someplace you've never been before. 17. Remember that the best relationship is one in which your love for each other exceeds your need for each other. 18. Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it. 19. Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon. I also know that dreams really do come true and you have my Best Wishes and my best efforts in those. |
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05 Apr 03 - 11:02 AM (#926668) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Little Hawk A superb list, daylia. Not even William Shatner could improve on that prescription for a prosperous and happy life... :-) For those who are concerned about diet, read a book called "Sugar Blues" by William Dufty, and also read the "Fit For Life" books and "Diet for a New America". It's all easy to read, a bit harder to follow... - LH |
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06 Apr 03 - 01:14 AM (#927066) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Ebbie Little Hawk, for payment for the course (it sounds thrilling!!!) will you accept payment in the form of Nigerian money? I've got LOTS of it. (Actually, Rick, you said that Teribus ( I think it was Teribus) and Little Hawk are actually dual sides of the same guy. "Although", you added conversationally, "Little Hawk is quite a bit taller." Cracked me up.) |
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06 Apr 03 - 04:45 AM (#927118) Subject: RE: Best way to live and die From: Li Maree Amazing thread, I wonder if Forum Lurker will read the books recommended? I haven't read "People of the Lie", but I have read "The Road Less Travelled" by the same author. Absolutely brilliant stuff. I myself have been for a long time asking many of the same questions as Forum Lurker, and was fortunate enough to meet a guy with similar beliefs to Little Hawk. A very important first step is to stop seeing God as something external and rather as something that is a part of yourself. When you realise that the only person who is actually in control of your life is you, it all begins to fall into place. Psychology goes a long way to understanding why there is so much suffering, for as Little Hawk says, "God provides, we decide". It's absolutely true and can be applied to just about every aspect of our daily lives. To make a decision is to make a choice, so every day we choose constantly how we are going to act, what we are going to say, what to believe, how we are going to react. This becomes a problem only when we don't stop to think about the choices we are making. When things don't turn out as we expect, we immediately look about for someone else to blame, believing that we couldn't possibly have brought this problem/failure/suffering on ourselves. I am still a long way from getting it all together and I apologise if this sounds a little simplistic. And I can't begin to explain the mass suffering that goes on in the world, so I won't even try. What I do strongly believe, though is the "free will" message. Your life is what you make it. Happiness to all, Li Maree |