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31 Mar 03 - 09:39 AM (#922458) Subject: Any students of Latin here? From: GUEST,leeneia In two weeks we are going to sing a Mozart piece with words in Latin for a church concert. We would like to know what the words mean. Some are obvious, but I will quote the entire thing. Ave, ave verum corpus, Deus ex Maria Virgine. Vere passum, immolatum in cruce pro homine. Cujus latus perforatum, fluxit aqua et sanguine. Esto nobis praegustatum mortis in examine. Hard to believe that a bunch of Catholics, even the priest, can't come up with a translation, eh what? Thanks. |
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31 Mar 03 - 09:46 AM (#922468) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Nigel Parsons My translation skills are no good, but I recognise the phrases, from a book of C16th anthems. My memory of the first line differs. "Ave verum corpus, natum dei Maria virgine" Could be a different version, but just my 2p's worth Nigel |
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31 Mar 03 - 09:50 AM (#922472) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Dani I could butcher it some, but wait for Joe Offer to come around. He'll do a much better job. Doesn't sound like the happy verse, though... Dani |
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31 Mar 03 - 09:54 AM (#922480) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: GUEST,leeneia No,it's not happy. However, our spring concerts start sad and move to joyous every year. |
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31 Mar 03 - 10:06 AM (#922499) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Amos PM to Deda -- she's a professional Classics instructor ands wioll make short work of it. A |
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31 Mar 03 - 10:09 AM (#922503) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: greg stephens Well the last line obviously means "and we predigest corpses in the examination". Can't do the rest. |
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31 Mar 03 - 10:12 AM (#922506) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Catarina Well, I did study Latin, centuries ago, when dinossaurs still wondered around. Plus, English is not my first language so I'll have to translate and re-translate. Still, let me see what I can come up with... Will have to run for my diccionary, though... I´ll try to return tomorrow. And maybe someone with a better memory comes allong! |
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31 Mar 03 - 10:13 AM (#922508) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: DMcG Well, The line before it starts with "Cut along the perforated line" |
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31 Mar 03 - 10:15 AM (#922510) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Catarina Loved greg's translation of the last verse... I should have thought about that myself, looks quite obvious! |
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31 Mar 03 - 10:17 AM (#922512) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Padre One translation is: Hail, hail true body, born of the virgin Mary, truly having suffered sacrifice on the cross on behalf of man. Whose pierced side trickled water and blood be thou for us a foretaste in the test of death. Padre |
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31 Mar 03 - 10:25 AM (#922517) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Dave Bryant This is a very rough attempt: Hail, hail true body born of the Virgin Mary, Who was hung on the cross for man, Whose side was pierced and whose blood did flow, May I take of your dying body. (?) |
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31 Mar 03 - 10:28 AM (#922522) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Dave Bryant Ah well - perhaps I should have left it for a proper Latin Scholar ! |
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31 Mar 03 - 10:31 AM (#922527) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: McGrath of Harlow Ave, ave verum corpus, Deus ex Maria Virgine. Vere passum, immolatum in cruce pro homine. Cujus latus perforatum, fluxit aqua et sanguine. Esto nobis praegustatum mortis in examine. I'm no Latin scolar, but more or less: Hail, the true body, God born of the Virgin Mary. Truly suffered, a sacrifice offered on the cross for mankind, From whose pierced side blood and water flowed. The last line is about learning to look forward to our own death with the right kind of attitude, but the exact meaning defeats me. Latin is a very economic language. It can get an awful lot of meaning into a few words. |
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31 Mar 03 - 10:44 AM (#922542) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Dani Thanks, Greg. I spit my drink all over my desk... Dani |
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31 Mar 03 - 10:54 AM (#922555) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Steve Parkes Latin is not too good at subtleties, as it doesn't have enough words; Greek is much better. They're a bit like Newspeak and Oldspeak, and I've often wondered if they had appropriate cultural influences ... maybe German and French would be better examples. Padre's version looks pretty accurate to me: it's been a good many years since I studied Latin, and I'm more au fait with the philologocal aspects nowadays. Of course, if you really need a mot juste, English is the language of choice: a lot of the best "modern" English words were coined by the Bible's translators in the 16th century, so it has divine authorisation, too! Steve |
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31 Mar 03 - 01:20 PM (#922709) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy it's a late medieval Latin, written by William Byrd, early 17th c. Ave Verum Corpus natum de Maria Virgine. Vere passum immolatum in cruce pro homine: cuius latum perforatum aqua fluxit et sanguine. Esto nobis praegustatum in mortis examine. O Iesu dulcis! O Iesu pie! O Iesu Fili Mariae. Amen. (or: O clemens, O pie O dulcis Jesu, Fili Mariae.) Hail, true Body, truly born of the Virgin Mary mild. Truly offered, wracked and torn, on the Cross for all defiled, from Whose love-pierced, sacred side flowed Thy true Blood's saving tide: be a foretaste sweet to me in my death's great agony. O my loving, Gentle One, Sweetest Jesus, Mary's Son. Amen. (or: o gentle, o pious o sweet Jeus, Son of Mary.) (Translation by Fr. Edward Francis Garesche, SJ) |
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31 Mar 03 - 01:25 PM (#922716) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy that should read a late medival Latin poem, ca. 14th c., also set to music by William Byrd in the 17th c. (not just Mozart) |
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31 Mar 03 - 03:14 PM (#922811) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Ulysses 1874 Latin as an economical language: my favourite Latin expression is Malo malo malo malo. Latin students will be familiar with its meaning. Another favourite of mine is this palindrome and magic square: S A T O R A R E P O T E N E T O P E R A R O T A S (Sator arepo tenet opera rotas). The translation is a bit dull, but whoever thought of it was clever. For translations of these, and a few others, try this link. Latin Tongue Twisters |
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31 Mar 03 - 10:38 PM (#923106) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: GUEST,leeneia Thanks for all the responses. I think Padre gets to wear the laurel in this contest. Now I can see new relationships. immolatum = sacrifice. It bothered me that to immolate something is to burn it up completely, but now I see that in Latin the concepts of sacrifice and burning had merged. Hail, hail true body, born of the virgin Mary, truly having suffered sacrifice on the cross on behalf of man. Whose pierced side trickled water and blood be thou for us a foretaste in the test of death. pregustatum = foretaste. Of course, a pre-gusto. esto = be, as in German or French est, meaning is. Only one word still puzzles me. What's "passum"? |
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01 Apr 03 - 02:22 AM (#923173) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Steve Parkes "Sacrifice" = "make sacred", from Latin. Pagan sacrifice often involved burning the sacrificial object; the earthly part, the ash, remains behind, while the smoke rises upwards, taking the object's essence to where the god is: whence immolate. "Passum": can't remember! But Padre gives it as "[truly] having suffered [sacrifice]". |
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01 Apr 03 - 05:39 AM (#923261) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: greg stephens "passum" is the original Latin for "opossum". "Passum immolatum" is a description of a Roman meal, when animals run over by chariots were often roasted and eaten. |
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01 Apr 03 - 07:21 AM (#923320) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: GUEST,Redhorse at work My fading memory of latin tells me "passum" is past participle of "patere" to suffer, but including the old meaning of "suffer" which was to undergo as in "passive" : the pain maning of suffer came a lot later |
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01 Apr 03 - 09:35 AM (#923463) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: dermod in salisbury Truly, Latin is a very economical language, as noted above. But not as economical as ancient Chinese. A confucian proverb literally translates as 'know, know, don't know, don't know'. Which means means - it also knowledge to know that you don't know. Which sums up the quality of my Latin, though shamefully I studied it for five arduous years at school. Best wishes. Dermod |
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01 Apr 03 - 10:00 AM (#923502) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: GUEST,leeneia Steve Parkes: "while the smoke rises upwards, taking the object's essence to where the god is: whence immolate." I don't see where immolate comes in. Can you explain a bit further? Greg Stephens: good joke. Have your ever heard the Ray Stevens song about Southern Air? "They had an Eat More Possum bumpersticker out on the wing." Dermod: perhaps if there are more threads like this, your Latin will start coming back. It beats threads complaining about bodhrans. (I like bodhran.) |
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01 Apr 03 - 12:50 PM (#923686) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy When this poem was written the debate was about the host being or not the true 'Body of Christ', hence the lyric 'verum corpus'. There is probably some subtle connection that resonated with 'taste' in the act of eating the host in communion. So in this case I think the wish in the last line is a positive one, in that the prayer is addressing the host, Christ's body, and saying may my eating your body in communion be a foretaste of the happiness and glory I will enjoy in life eternal. Not may Christ's death be a foretaste of my own death. that doesn't make much sense theologically. |
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01 Apr 03 - 03:08 PM (#923805) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Amos Jeeze, the things they thought up to fuss about!! A |
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01 Apr 03 - 08:54 PM (#924055) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: David Ingerson And we're still doing it! Witness all the threads about what "folk" means! I think humans, some of us, anyway, love to split hairs. And don't forget the irregular Latin verbs like: slippo, slipere, falli, bumptus, -a, -um! DAvid |
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02 Apr 03 - 02:14 AM (#924239) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Steve Parkes Leeneia, you said It bothered me that to immolate something is to burn it up completely, but now I see that in Latin the concepts of sacrifice and burning had merged, ad I was trying to explain how sacrifice involves burning. Steve |
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19 Dec 09 - 07:32 PM (#2792415) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: GUEST,chorusstudent33 im not sure exactly what it means, but you have some of it wrong. Ave verum corpus is by mozart. ave ave verum corpus natum dei maria virgine ere passum imolato en cruche pro homine.... pretty nuch, the whole thing is about jesus. |
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19 Dec 09 - 07:43 PM (#2792424) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: GUEST,999 I'm a student of Mr Google. Hope the following link helps. Here ya go. |
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19 Dec 09 - 08:09 PM (#2792449) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Q (Frank Staplin) "Ave verum corpus" as a hymn dates from the 14th c. Mozart was just one of the composers who composed settings for it. Hail, true body, born of the virgin Mary, truly suffered, sacrificed on the cross for humankind, whose pierced side flowed with water and blood; may it be for us a foretaste [of what will come] in the trial of death. Oh, dear Jesus, oh merciful Jesus, oh Jesus, son of Mary, have mercy on me. Amen en cruce |
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19 Dec 09 - 08:27 PM (#2792464) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Steve Shaw In my view, Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus, just about two minutes long and one of the last pieces he composed, is one of the most perfect little pieces of music ever created. Just thought I'd mention it. |
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04 May 10 - 10:16 PM (#2900252) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: GUEST "Passum" is the participle of the verb "patior". In Classical Latin it means not just "to suffer", as something painful or bad, but it has a neuter meaning of being the target of an action or experiencing something. In this late Latin usage it acquires the negative meaning, like in the expression "The Passion of Christ" (passus-passion, same root). |
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05 May 10 - 12:00 PM (#2900617) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: GUEST,leeneia Thanks, Guest. I just encountered the phrase 'vere passum' again in the song Ecce Panis Angelorum. Now I know what it means. |
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05 May 10 - 02:13 PM (#2900695) Subject: RE: Any students of Latin here? From: Highlandman Just got here and missed all the fun. You've got a pretty good explanation now. I too think Mozart's setting is one of the most delicious short bits of choral music there is. Funny thing about Latin being economical... this seems to be one of the most devilishly difficult texts to translate well, especially in a meter that fits the original. All of the "translations" I have seen have either been way off the point, or heinously tortured English. And I can't do any better. My current church choir director seems to resist singing in Latin for doctrinal reasons, but you can't beat it for a singin' language! =Glenn |