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09 Apr 03 - 12:02 AM (#929201) Subject: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: reggie miles We created him, armed him, set him up, and let him go merry way. Isn't he the monster of our creation? Just like Dr. Frankenstein was ultimately responsible for the monster of his creation. Aren't we really the responsible ones for meddling, peddling influence where we had no business doing so. Isn't the region just reaping that which we sowed? Doesn't that make us the evil empire? Now we despise and demonize the fruits of our labors in arms sales and poor judgement. |
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09 Apr 03 - 12:22 AM (#929212) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Troll I don't think we created Saddam Hussein but I do know that we aided him in his war against Iran. If he was thus our creation, then we are responsible in some wise for his depredations and we have attempted to make amends by removing him from power. There is not much more that we can do at this time. As far as our having no business in the Middle East, we must at all times look to our national security. A US presence in the Middle East is essential for strategic as well as economic reasons and anyone who thinks differently needs to study global politics. As far as "Now we despise and demonize the fruits of our labors in arms sales and poor judgement.", goes, the things that Saddam Hussein has done to his own people is worthy of our despite and he has done a better job of demonizing himself than we ever could. troll |
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09 Apr 03 - 12:34 AM (#929219) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Little Hawk Yes, Reggie, I'm afraid that is the case. You don't have to submit to it, though. Regime change begins at home. - LH |
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09 Apr 03 - 01:19 AM (#929239) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,Martha Yes, you are the Evil Empire. But not because you created Saddam Hussein, but because you created George W. Bush. |
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09 Apr 03 - 02:36 AM (#929263) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: DougR Horse pucky! DougR |
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09 Apr 03 - 02:36 AM (#929264) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,Guest. Yes. Everything the people who control your country believe in is purely for their own selfish interests. Right wing values are definately the root of evil. There is not difference between financial power over and military control of people. The objective and the ends are just the same. You dictators are your corporate controllers. I hate Bush annd what he stands for but really, he is just a puppet. I believe more strongly than ever that United States people were involved in the organisation of Sept 11th. It is just part of the big plan that is now unfolding. |
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09 Apr 03 - 05:11 AM (#929313) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: gnu Odd... I was reading this thread while I listen to to the TV... Iraqi's in Baghdad cheering the troops and destroying images of Saddam. |
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09 Apr 03 - 05:32 AM (#929318) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: harvey andrews "The King is dead. Long live the King" It's called survival Gnu. |
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09 Apr 03 - 05:50 AM (#929329) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: gnu Point well made. |
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09 Apr 03 - 05:54 AM (#929331) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: McGrath of Harlow All empires are evil empires sooner or later. |
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09 Apr 03 - 05:58 AM (#929334) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: mooman And to add to what McGrath said all empires rise and eventually fall. moo |
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09 Apr 03 - 06:42 AM (#929349) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST At least we prevented Saddam from starting his empire. Food for thought? One missile fired at Israel would have started the third world war. Pan Arabic nationalism fired by the likes of Saddam, would have destabilised the entire world. |
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09 Apr 03 - 06:56 AM (#929357) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Gervase Bit premature, aren't we, Guest? Wait and see... |
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09 Apr 03 - 07:43 AM (#929387) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: InOBU We are not the evil empire, the proof is found in the post about the Victory Song for the USA posted above... here is a taste which shows that we are NOT the evil empire... The crowds that cheered for Sadam now cheer for our Bush You see that they love us, for cheering is the proof They cheered their dictator before his armed ranks But we came in peace in our humvees and tanks Larry ;-) |
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09 Apr 03 - 08:51 AM (#929440) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Rapparee Seems to me that there is a Dark Spot in most of humanity.... |
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09 Apr 03 - 08:58 AM (#929447) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,Jon As stated above, I guess we all have our dark spots. Whether the US is the evil empire or not is a question I can't answer. They have however aided people such as Saddam and Bin Ladin who were known to be nasty. I'm comming more and more to the conclusion that the idea from the bible "as you sow, so shall you reap" is in fact true. Jon |
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09 Apr 03 - 09:46 AM (#929486) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* Although it is easy to bash the US as an "evil empire" these days, there are many wise critics who propose quite convincingly that the US gov't, (like all other national gov'ts), are only puppets dancing to the tune of the ever-more-powerful and tyrannical multinational corporations. IMO this position begs our scrutiny, because if it is true (and I believe it is), then we are playing right into their hands by continuing to be misled and focus our attention/protests on the government pawns, and not the "evil emporers" themselves. These corporate "emporers" have been very busy in recent years putting immense pressure on governments to pass multinational "Agreements" making their business practices and methods above and beyond both the scrutiny/influence of voters and the rule of law, international and otherwise. Capitalism and the hoarding of wealth - profitmaking at any human/environmental cost - is their Bible and their sole purpose. " "The more freedom is extended to business, the more prisons have to be built for those who suffer from that business." Eduardo Galleano Who/what are the institutions of economic globalization? According to veteran activist Starhawk, they are: NAFTA -- North American Free Trade Agreement FTAA -- Free Trade Area of the Americas G8 -- the G8 are the eight most powerful, industrialized nations: The U.S., Canada, Great Britain, Germany, Italy, France, Japan, and Russia. In their summits, they create policies and set agendas that affect everything from the WTO to the U.N. WTO -- The World Trade Organization (nothing to do with the Twin Towers) World Bank/IMF -- (International Monetary Fund) For more information on these institutions and their tyrannical policies which threaten human rights, environmental protection and national sovereignty all over the globe, click here And to those who are squeamish about Starhawk's "new-age" affiliations, and would discredit her work on that basis, I counter that her "religious" views do not detract in the least from the work she does for human rights/environmental protection. Seems to me that the first step in dealing with the "evil empire" must surely be to recognize exactly what it is - and what it is not. IMO, GW Bush is small fry indeed compared to these monstrous and powerful sharks (no offense to sharks intended). daylia |
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09 Apr 03 - 10:24 AM (#929516) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,Jon Daylia, I believe you have much of the drive in the world right there. In a way, it sort of reminds me of a chat with my (sadly late) manager when I worked for Hotpoint. He told me our "purpose" was to make money for the shareholders and like it or not, that was how the buisenness world works. The unfortunate side effect to this is that those who invest are playing a money game and are more interested in how their investments are doing than human concerns. In many cases, I suspect they are too distant from the latter to care. I wish I had an answer to it all. I believe capitalism is flawed but, on the other hand believe that our in built greed will always override any socialist values. Perhaps the real question is how to change the human race to a society that cares more about the survival of all, rather than that of idividuals. I can dream and will plead guilty to being greedy myself. Jon |
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09 Apr 03 - 10:35 AM (#929521) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Amos Jon: That's a very narrow view of the business world, although it is one being promulgated in MBA training all over the world. The fact is that businesses which pursue money as the sole measure of all good generally go into a tailspin. The purpose of business is not just profit -- the proposition is meaningless, ultimately -- but profitable service. There's a universe of difference between the two paths. As for the evil empire, I'm certain "we" -- assuming you mean the people of the United States -- are not an evil empire. We do have a pretty stupid political subclass, though. A |
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09 Apr 03 - 10:41 AM (#929524) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* Jon, IMO there's nothing wrong with wanting the very best for oneself and working to attain it, if that's what you mean by "greed". But simply taking (stealing?) and hoarding that very best for oneself at the expense of everything and everyone else - now that's a different story altogether. That story that transforms capitalist dreams into global nightmares. daylia |
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09 Apr 03 - 10:45 AM (#929531) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Bill D ah, it's a fine line to walk, isn't it? In one sense, it's good for the greatest power & influence to be held by a country/society that is relatively benign, democratic and altruistic....yet simply becoming powerful and influential tends to move a country away from those virtues.. "Power corrupts...etc." In WWI and WWII, the U.S. waited, and entered the war when we were needed and when it was clear that we were helping to repel agressors. How far we have come to this point of starting a war, just because we (that is, the powers-that-be) feel that we are the designated arbitors. It is clear that our motivation has become confused--partly sincere objection to an evil tyrant, partly cunning self-interest, partly wanting to show off and do this "because we can", partly trying to stabilize things and 'make the world safer', partly (understandable)knee-jerk reaction to 9/11.... I TRULY wonder what other countries would do if they had serious leverage and power...could we trust Lichtenstein or Suriname? There is no easy way to answer this, as there is something deep in the genetic structure of too many humans in (almost)ALL cultures that breeds competition and belligerence, even as we speak of cooperation and peace. No, I don't think we are 'evil'...yet...not like Saddam would be IF he had managed to keep Kuwait and extend HIS power...but 'evil' is a slippery concept, and too many people in the world easily slip into defining 'evil' as "anyone who has more than me and doesn't seem to want to share".....*shrug*... and as long as people's identities are defined by their clan, religion and relative place in the pecking order, 'evil' will continue to be a tennis ball, lobbed at any one you don't like or agree with.. |
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09 Apr 03 - 10:51 AM (#929533) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,Jon Amos, 1. If you care to expand on my "narrow view" of the larger (rather than individuals trying to make a life), I'd be interested to read, as I would as a view from a shareholders angle. 2. "We". I was assuming that the 1st post was directed at the US and as such directed my answer that way. I do see the US as a big player but have no reason to believe that an American is by nature any more evil than me as an Englishman or maybe even than an an Iraqi. Probably, deep down, you would like to see life and peace for all in the same way I would. How to achieve that seems to me to be the elusive factor... Jon |
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09 Apr 03 - 11:00 AM (#929539) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: McGrath of Harlow "I'm certain "we" -- assuming you mean the people of the United States -- are not an evil empire. " True enough. But that's the normal enough situation in any empire, however evil it may be be its impact may be. I'm sure the USA as it expanded across North America was full of great goodhearted people with the best of intentions - and that's not irony on my opart. But for the Native Americans it was about as evil as any empire can be. The same kind of thing can be said about the British, the French, the Spanish, the Romans. And in most cases along with the bad things there were good aspects. But over the long run, I think its fair to say that empires destroy more than they build. And the way they can change and distort the home country is perhaps as devastating as anything. |
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09 Apr 03 - 11:25 AM (#929567) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Amos Jon: I didn't mean you had a narrow view. I meant that "business is only about making money" is a narrow view. It's like saying weather is all about figuring out the temperature, or all travel is about mph. Kevin -- I don't believe the United States is an empire. I concur it has more influence on the world than any other nation. But the empires of today, for good or ill, are not those of nations but of corporate networks. Many of these were started in the US, because it has a culture which supports enterprise and innovation, generally. But they aren't the nation. A |
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09 Apr 03 - 11:52 AM (#929599) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,Forum Lurker The only way to combat multinational corporations is within national and international politics. Corporations have no method of oversight that can be directly managed by the people; only government has that ability. Even if the multinats are the real enemy, we have to work through government to affect them. |
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09 Apr 03 - 12:04 PM (#929609) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Beccy No. (Nicely put, DougR) |
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09 Apr 03 - 12:54 PM (#929645) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar No, you're not the evil empire, but you tend to overlook the beam in your own eye. What jars is not the absolute level of evil represented by the US (though executing mentally subnormal people who can't afford decent legal advice for crimes committes while they were minors is not much to boast about): it's the yawning gap between the US's self-righteous rhetoric and its actions around the world. Until recently, 11 September was noteworthy as the anniversary of the day when local goons recruited, armed and paid by the US, murdered the legally elected Allende and replaced him with the dictator Pinochet, subjecting Chile to almost two decades of murder and torture. That's only one of many examples of the US preaching democracy, but through its actions undermining it because of some nebulous perceived threat to its interests. Nobody in Europe except for "President" Blair and a handful of his supporters imagines that the US invasion of Iraq has been for the good of the health of the Iraqi people. But at least Chirac, stomach-turning cynic that he is, doesn't imagine that he is part of God's plan to save the world. |
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09 Apr 03 - 01:37 PM (#929682) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: duuuude We may be the "evil empire", but we're still the best friggin nation on this earth. What other nation has accomplished so much in so few years of "civilization"? What other nation has at least attempted to set-up the world-wide releif programs we have? If we're evil, then I guess I'm just another evildoer. |
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09 Apr 03 - 01:48 PM (#929700) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,Forum Lurker duuuude-What is it that we have accomplished "in so few years?" Our wonderful standard of living comes at the expense of the nations to whom we export our need for cheap maual labor. Our political power comes from the world's largest military and the willingness to use it. For every world-wide relief organization we create, we helped destroy the political system of a country that now needs our relief. I'm not saying we are the root of all evil, but we've contributed our share. |
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09 Apr 03 - 01:49 PM (#929701) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: McGrath of Harlow Colonial Empires spread around the world, like the British Empire or the French and Spanish Empires, aren't the only sort. The continental United States, "sea to shining sea", is surely every bit as much an Empire as, for example, the Austrian Empire or the German Empire, or the Chinese or Russian Empires - it's just that, as was the case with those, the conquered territories incorporated were for the most part contiguous rather than overseas. That's what was surely meant by "manifest destiny"? |
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09 Apr 03 - 02:03 PM (#929715) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* duuuude - when I read your post, an old ACDC tune started playin in my head ... "I've got big balls I've got big balls And they're such big balls Dirty big balls And he's got big balls And she's got big balls But we've got the biggest balls of them all!" Thanks! That was fun! ;) daylia |
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09 Apr 03 - 02:22 PM (#929731) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Don Firth "Horse pucky!" I love Doug's pithy, well-thought-out, point-by-point refutations. A real philosopher. Don Firth |
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09 Apr 03 - 02:37 PM (#929745) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: ard mhacha The bare faced cheek of this man having all of those Castles, and our poor Queen and her hard-up family struggling along on a few ancient piles, [and they can be bloody sore]. Ard Mhacha. |
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09 Apr 03 - 02:54 PM (#929763) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Steve in Idaho Damn - I hope so - or can all of these folkies be wrong? Only history will answer that question and none of us will write it. For some things I am truly grateful. DougR is the most eloquent person so far - were it a contest and I be the judge - which it isn't and I'm not - Steve |
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09 Apr 03 - 03:13 PM (#929785) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST The last line of the song inOBU quotes, "But we came in peace in our humvees and tanks" Isn't this rather oxymoronic? If we truly came in peace we wouldn't be waging war. |
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09 Apr 03 - 03:13 PM (#929786) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,pdc Posted by An Pluiméir Ceolmhar: "It's the yawning gap between the US's self-righteous rhetoric and its actions around the world." That's it in an absolute nutshell. Well said! |
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09 Apr 03 - 04:28 PM (#929868) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Forum Lurker GUEST of 3:13-That's kind of the point. The song is pointing out our hypocrisy. |
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09 Apr 03 - 05:44 PM (#929926) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Greg F. He's Back!!! Ex-Corporal Snortin' Norton Whitefeather Neff, fearless, ruggedleatherneck; the man who never walked away from a fight, the man who threatens people of opposing viewpoints with assault, the man who decries 'cowards' and 'wimps' and 'wusses' and 'bottom feeders' and dares them to goat it toe-to-toe... The red-blooded, two-fisted American Hero who felt so personally threatened by a couple of posts to an internet web-site that he had to run whining and crying for help to a mouth-breather & knuckle-dragger's cyber clubhouse to recruit a lynch mob of cyber-louts with ridiculous junior-high school "macho"[sic] screen names to come galloping to his rescue??? One sick puppy!- simper, fido. Hail the conquering hero! A regular Profile in Courage.Welcome back. |
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09 Apr 03 - 08:51 PM (#930049) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Bill D why do I feel like my attempt at a thoughtful, reasoned post is rather like shouting into the wind when all this noise is going on around me? *sigh*...never mind, go on with your tirades, insults, flag waving and snide remarks. I'll just sit here in the chimney corner and watch. Why, I was once ignored by the Salvation Army Band on a street corner...*wry grin* |
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09 Apr 03 - 10:31 PM (#930113) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Amos Greg: Your post is absolutely uncalled for, irrational and a disgrace. You want evil? Try this one for size. I believe you owe Steve an apology. A |
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10 Apr 03 - 12:10 AM (#930184) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: reggie miles Okay boys and girls let's all just take a step back, inhale a deep cleansing breath and forget I ever brought this subject up. Please! I didn't want to pit us against each other personally. I wanted to know if we are responsible due to our love of da green stuff. It's a fair question. I think I read somewhere that the love of it ($ that is) is the root of all evil and here in the good ol' U.S. of A. we do a better job than most, of lusting after it. The point about multinationals seems, to me, to be spot on. I doubt, in this day and age, that any one entity could operate alone. The U.S. being the lone super power I guess they make an easy target to assign blame to, when in reality there are powerful forces all across the planet conspiring. The president as a puppet to corporations seems likely as well. Maybe that why his rhetoric rings with such emptiness. Thanks all of you for your input but before we go too much farther into this scrap with one another let's just change the subject, grab a guitar and strum a few chords or something to defuse and unlax. Do it for me. I just want us all to get along. There's already enough strife in the world. Peace, Reg |
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10 Apr 03 - 12:45 AM (#930195) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,pdc Well, now I don't know what to say, or how to feel. I've been posting here for a couple of weeks, off and on, about how much I detest this war, and Bush, and the rah-rah hawks. I still hate the way the US went into this war, with depleted uranium shells and cluster bombs. I hate the fact that I saw a picture of a 30-day-old baby girl with shrapnel injuries. No, I don't trust Bush. Not at all. I don't think he went into this war to liberate the Iraqis; I think he has his own agenda that will show up when the war is over. But dammit. I watched the news on television tonight, with tears pouring down my cheeks as I saw Iraqi people thanking American soldiers, shaking their hands, some of them crying, tearing down the statues of Hussein, celebrating, telling their stories of what had happened to them under Hussein's rule. So -- even if the liberation of these people turns out to be a byproduct of a war fought for another reason, I am very, very glad it happened. Political persuasions aside, getting rid of Saddam Hussein is a good, good thing. |
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10 Apr 03 - 01:09 AM (#930210) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: DougR Thank you Steve; Beccy. Don was obviously disappointed that I did not write paragraphs describing what I thought about the subject, but to me, horse pucky is just that! Horse pucky. Nothing complicated about it. daylia: I'm rather disappointed to learn that you have balls! I had envisioned someone more ...well ...soft and demure. :>) DougR |
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10 Apr 03 - 07:53 AM (#930336) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Greg F. Amos: You want assholes?CLICK HERE You want irrational? CLICK HERE You want uncalled for? CLICK HERE You want an apology? LOL!! Sod off. Best, Greg |
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10 Apr 03 - 08:36 AM (#930346) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Amos Greg F: Thanks for pissing in the foyer. Your business how you handle the flamewar you got in to with Steve, of course, but your choice is distinctly unmannerly and crude and also, IMHO, crude and ineffective, not to add foolish. But its your business. A |
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10 Apr 03 - 08:38 AM (#930347) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: RichM As a Canadian, what country would I prefer to have next door, other than the USA? Let me see: Russia? Iran? Iraq? Palestine? Columbia? Any African nation? China? Indonesia? Brazil? No...... Maybe Australia; Maybe Antarctica, but we're cold enough already! I'm happy to have the neighbour that's there already. |
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10 Apr 03 - 08:56 AM (#930365) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* Doug - my balls are so soft and demure I usually can't even find them. But when it's time to rock'n roll - ah, THAT's when they come out to party! (If you're not deaf, it does take lots of balls - the bigger the better - to endure AC/DC). :) pdr - I felt exactly the same way watching the scenes from Baghdad yesterday. But will life be any easier or more peaceful for the people of Iraq in the days to come? Or will Saddam's brutal regime simply be replaced by the next US-bred-and-supported dictatorship? I surely hope not, although that is standard US foreign policy to date. Wait and see ... In the meantime, as I watched the joy on people's faces as they danced in the streets celebrating the toppling of Saddam, as I watched the Iraqis lining up to thank the handsome young - and very disciplined-looking - American soldiers (egads, was I actually feeling PROUD of my neighbours south of the border?!?) - one little boy even running up to give a soldier a kiss! - I couldn't help but think that this must be the happiest moment in most of their miserable lives. And much to my astonishment, peacenik that I am, I found myself wondering if giving them that once-in-a-lifetime moment of joy and hope made it all worthwhile. I guess the jury's still out on that one ... the millions of Iraqis who are dead, diseased, starving, and maimed as a result of this and the first Gulf War (and the decade of bombing and sanctions in between) won't get a vote anyway. :( Peace - daylia |
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10 Apr 03 - 09:05 AM (#930369) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: DougR daylia: AC/DC? Okie dokie. "To Each His Own" (does this belong in the Music section? DougR |
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10 Apr 03 - 09:50 AM (#930409) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* AC/DC in the "Music" section, Doug? But there's such a fine line between music and noise, and AC/DC doesn't "toe" it very well, imo. They do provide a few "measures" (he he!) of relief for those of us needing to release the pent-up stores of venom we accumulate on this particularly trying section of the "Highway to Hell" we've been riding of late! Now, if I can just refrain from stuffing my ears with big BIG cotton balls before I turn them on ... :) daylia |
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10 Apr 03 - 11:28 AM (#930460) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,pdc HEY!! I've just made an important breakthrough! Read this!! I've been following this thread, and realize now exactly what causes all the problems that this and other war threads discuss. Testosterone!! There's too much of that stuff around. |
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10 Apr 03 - 02:25 PM (#930555) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* I've often thought that if the ratio of men to women holding positions of power in both the businesses and governments of the world reflected the ratio of men to women in the human population (50/50 approx), this planet and all of it's inhabitants would benefit greatly. At least the influence/expression of "testosterone" at those tables would finally meet with some healthy, natural balance. daylia |
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10 Apr 03 - 02:38 PM (#930568) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Beccy Oh gosh... not this "if only the world was run by women" business again... I'm certain that men and women are equally capable of holding powerful office and I seriously doubt that having many women around has a tempering effect on men. I also don't believe that estrogen has any inherent qualities that automatically make women superior to men. Equal, equal, equal!!! Wasn't that the point of feminism in the first place? Or did I miss the dissertation by Susan B. Anthony on why women were superior to men? Feminists have become what they despised. But I cause thread creep and I shall now digress. Apologies. Beccy |
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10 Apr 03 - 02:40 PM (#930571) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: vindelis Appologies to Star Trek (and a certain English pop group called The Firm): We come in Peace Shoot to kill Shoot to kill Shoot to kill We come in Peace Shoot to kill Shoot to kill - Ma'am. |
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10 Apr 03 - 04:00 PM (#930614) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,pdc Okay, while I take your point about equality between the sexes, and agree with it, consider this: Iraq is run by a woman; the US is run by a woman who wants a better oil deal from Iraq.The UN is comprised of women leaders. Would they have a war? Doesn't that idea seem ludicrous, given this scenario? There's a real difference between the hierarchy and the circle. |
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10 Apr 03 - 04:06 PM (#930617) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Amos Well, they might. Think "Maggie Thatcher" or the gal who has been standing up doing the daily war briefings. I grant you the estrogen pool would be less likely to produce warmongers than the testosterone side, though. Reminds me of that great film from the Fifties, "Womb with a View".... A |
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10 Apr 03 - 04:18 PM (#930628) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Beccy I don't see women wielding power as being any less likely than men wielding power to start a military conflict or war. Are you telling me that women don't have nasty disagreements? Heck- My sister-in-law didn't talk to me for three years because I asked her children to split a soda. Tell me THAT'S rational. Beccy |
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10 Apr 03 - 04:21 PM (#930630) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* Beccy, I did not say that "if only the world was run by women" ... I said that if the ratio of women to men holding positions of power both in business and in gov't was a 50/50 split, reflecting the natural ratio of women to men in the population (and therefore the natural human balance of "testosterone" to "estrogen" which is, presumably, the healthiest scenario for human survival), we might see great benefits for the planet and everything upon it. Right now, and for a very large chunk of recorded history, men have been overwhelmingly represented in those positions of power. And as testosterone levels are directly related to aggressive behavior (as one rises, so does the other), this just might have at least a tiny bit of bearing on why most of human history is just one bloody war after another? daylia |
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10 Apr 03 - 04:44 PM (#930645) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: McGrath of Harlow After all those years of Maggie Thatcher (and a lot of Maggie Thatcher Clones at lower levels as well getting inspired by her as a role model), any idea that women in power could be relied on to be any less prone to megalomania doesn't convince somehow. And I think many people (men or women) who have found themselves working in places where the boss is a women will feel the same. Of course, that could well be a consequence of the fact that to rise to the top in our society, it often helps to be a real bastard, regardless of gender. It might well be that this personality type is more characteristic of men, but there is still an adequate supply of female real bastards around. I suspect that would even apply if we had a 50/50 balance in powerful positions. Maybe if it were done the other way round, so that we concentrated on ways of stopping the real bastards getting into positions of power in the first place, and looked out for decent human beings instead, that would work out better; and maybe as a by product we'd find ourselves with a much higher proportion of women making the decisions. That would also be likely to get in the way of setting up as an evil empire. |
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10 Apr 03 - 05:31 PM (#930673) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Greg F. Fascinating, Amos. And no words of reproach or motherly advice for WonderNeff, the All American High School Boy? ROFLMAO! |
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10 Apr 03 - 05:34 PM (#930676) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,pdc Heck- My sister-in-law didn't talk to me for three years because I asked her children to split a soda. Tell me THAT'S rational. Neither did she shoot you in the stomach, punch you in the face, or break your fingers. "Not speaking" is a bit more civilized. Every time the issue of women as leaders comes up, someone mentions Margaret Thatcher, or Indira Ghandi, or some other woman leader who has been cruel, nasty, hard as nails, or whatever. The problem is that we can never KNOW what women would be like as leaders, at least not until they had been in power for several generations. All women leaders operate under the male paradigm which has been in place for millennia. They also operate in a near vacuum, as they are usually the exceptions rather than the rule. If man and woman had worked in tandem from the beginning, rather than one sex needing to dominate, we might have a world in which both were equally strong, equally valid as leaders, and who might influence each other. But we just can't criticize women leaders for acting like men when they are working in a male paradigm. Discussion? |
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10 Apr 03 - 05:43 PM (#930681) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: McGrath of Harlow "male paradigm" - or maybe "power paradigm" Most people aren't like that, neither men nor women. But we allow things to get skewed so that people like that have inordinate power. I'd be more than happy to have a few generation with men out of the driving seat. But I don't think it would necessarily make much difference. I don't think that's where the fundamental problem arises. |
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11 Apr 03 - 10:28 AM (#931127) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* Is the problem then with the "positions of power" themselves? The opportunity for power over others tends to attract certain personality types - those who truly wish to serve the community in the best interests of the public, and those who pursue power for it's own sake, to further their own self-interests. Unfortunately, it appears that it's mostly the latter type who've been in the "driver's seat" politically for quite a while now. And it is also the latter type who are the most successful in the corporate world. The wealthiest corporations on the planet are usually those with the worst environmental and human rights records ie. Coca-Cola, Nike, Dow Chemical. Forum Lurker said "The only way to combat multinational corporations is within national and international politics. Corporations have no method of oversight that can be directly managed by the people; only government has that ability. Even if the multinats are the real enemy, we have to work through government to affect them." The problem with trying to affect the multinats through gov't is that generally it is the multinats and other wealthy corporations who provide the bulk of the funding for the political parties that compromise the gov't. Gov'ts are not too likely to bite the hand that feeds them! Another point to ponder is that historically it is the wealthy corporations who create the governments and write the laws in the first place - not to serve the public but their own monetary interests. Trying to affect them through gov't is then akin to trying to get them to arrest themselves, or beat themselves up using their own right arm - not a very likely scenario. To boycott the major corporate tyrants would be one way to hit them in the only place they really care about - in the wallet! - without having to deal with gov't institutions. A complete list of the major offenders would certainly help, but one good place to start might be Coca-Cola. Read it and weep ... and think about it next time you have a craving for the "real thing", or any of it's "family". Surely, giving up junk food and drink for would be better for everyone's health anyway! Corporations depend on consumer spending - and that may be the only trump card in the hands of "regular folks" like ourselves. daylia |
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11 Apr 03 - 10:40 AM (#931135) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* "The problem with trying to affect the multinats through gov't is that generally it is the multinats and other wealthy corporations who provide the bulk of the funding for the political parties that compromise the gov't." I meant to write "comprise" the gov't. Hmmm ... what an interesting typo!! daylia |
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11 Apr 03 - 11:18 AM (#931164) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Amos Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely. The reason why democratic republics work, when they do, is that power is subject to withdrawal by the cancellation of the consent of the governed. Theocracies and facist machines collapse because this relief is not available to them, and they cannot correct their paths. The equivalent of the consent of the governed, for corporations, is found in the dollars of the customers. Vote with your franchise or vote with your bucks. A |
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11 Apr 03 - 11:19 AM (#931167) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: GUEST,Forum Lurker Daylia-It is theoretically possible to run a successful campaign without multinat money. Support from unions and non-profit organizations can be just as valuable, and ideally would make it possible to elect politicians dedicated to campaign finance reform. It might be along shot, but so is materially affecting multinat profits by boycotting them. They might be dependent on consumers, but they have a ridiculously large consumer base, and not every company's products are as dispensible as soda. |
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11 Apr 03 - 05:40 PM (#931389) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: CarolC Vote with your franchise or vote with your bucks. This only works if everybody is playing according to the rules. If someone has stacked the deck, so to speak, or cooked the books, or otherwise not played fairly, power will accrue to the already powerful, and individuals will become disenfranchised. |
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12 Apr 03 - 12:22 PM (#931817) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* Carol - So a responsible boycott must include plans to alleviate the distress of the disenfranchised, then - alternative employment for example. Which could, theoretically, be done through politicians supported by unions/non-profit humanitarian organizations, as Forum Lurker said. If enough of them could (1)get elected, and (2) resist being co-opted into the major political parties. Researching this topic on the web, I've found the list of familiar major corporations guilty of continuing human rights/environmental violations is truly staggering, leading me to wonder if any of them are NOT "guilty". For a partial listing and more info, click here . Corporate Watch also has some excellent information: Corporations are as rich as countries "In 1999, according to the Institute for Policy Studies, 51 of the world's 100 largest economies were corporations. To put this in perspective, General Motors is now bigger than Denmark and three-and-a-half times the size of New Zealand; the top 200 corporations' combined sales are bigger than the combined economies of all countries minus the biggest 10. Is it any surprise that they are able to dictate terms to many countries? National governments are often of a dubious moral character, but corporations are by their nature (see above) greedy, inhumane and parasitic, as well as lacking even a veneer of democratic control. Moreover, they share a common hatred of people interfering with their profits and 'rights'. This means they lobby to the same ends and can have massive effects - just look at the current US government." "What can we do about it? "Corporations need to be first tamed, then dismantled and replaced by structures people can control. In order to do this we need to understand how they work, to recognise their real motivations and methods, to unpick the captivating rainbow veils spun by advertising and PR and to document the abuses of humanity and nature that occur at each point of the corporations' activities ..." Well, looks like only a few centuries of concentrated effort will accomplish the task ... and in the meantime I'm going to make myself a more competent gardener (for food, that is). daylia |
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12 Apr 03 - 01:42 PM (#931861) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: CarolC Happy gardening, daylia ;-) Maybe the big corporations will eventually collapse under the collective weight of their heavy Karma. ;-) |
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12 Apr 03 - 01:56 PM (#931874) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Amos It isn't karma that keeps the large companies going. It's dough. People work for them to earn a living. The companies pay their people in exchange for production. While their collective corporate heavy-handedness is often repulsive, let's not overlook the fact that their core value is in bringing products that are wanted tot he marketplace, which is not in itself dishonorable. No sense demonizing them -- the bad decisions which instil so much protestation are made by individuals, just like the good ones. A |
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12 Apr 03 - 02:06 PM (#931884) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: CarolC But are they really bringing products that are wanted to the marketplace, or do they, to a very great extent, create the demand themselves? And are they creating a demand for things that are harmfull to people and the world in the long run? To the extent that this may be true, corporations like those have no use to mankind on the whole. An enlightened self-interest approach would be to provide a product that is really needed, and that won't cause ultimate harm to people or the earth. And provide a living wage for the people who work for the companies that make them. I think, eventually, that is what we will have. But I also think there will be a lot of upheaval before that happens. |
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12 Apr 03 - 02:23 PM (#931893) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Skeptic Of course we're the evil empire. We're just not real good at it. Yet. Regards John |
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12 Apr 03 - 03:27 PM (#931924) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: McGrath of Harlow The equivalent of the consent of the governed, for corporations, is found in the dollars of the customers. The big difference under this system, of course, is that at least in the electoral system, flawed as it is, you don't get more votes just because you have more money. The market system is fundamentally skewed so as to give more power to those with more money, at every level - as consumers, and as shareholders. An electoral system that worked like that would be recogisd as corrupt and anti-democratic. And the truth is that, increasingly, domocratic institutions, based on the principle that everyone shoudl have an equal say in what happens, are being marginalised. In a sense this has been what we have had all along - rule by those who control the money. But, increasingly, now it isn't even disguised, it's welcomed as the way of the world and the way of the future. In the words of the Nazi anthem "Tomorrow Belongs to Us". And that is the evil empire staring us in the face. |
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12 Apr 03 - 03:40 PM (#931929) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: CarolC The big difference under this system, of course, is that at least in the electoral system, flawed as it is, you don't get more votes just because you have more money. That may be the reality in the UK, but here in the US, it's a well known fact that money equals votes. |
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12 Apr 03 - 03:45 PM (#931933) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Amos Carol: I don't believe anyone has ever forced me to buy anything. Do you, honestly? Advertising is a cesspool of insanity, no question. But you have the right to stay rational and ignore it as you would any lying self-serving braggart sack of excrement!! A |
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12 Apr 03 - 03:51 PM (#931937) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: CarolC Amos, you buy all kinds of things about which you have no say in whether or not you purchase them. You buy pesticides and hormones and antibiotics in your food whether you like it or not (unless you buy exclusively organic products). You buy all kinds of chemicals that you have no way of making a decision about in your clothing, furniture, automobiles, etc. You buy genetically modified organisms whether you like it or not, unless you buy exclusively organic food products. All kinds of decisions are being made for you by people who don't care about your welfare or the welfare of the human species or of the planet, and you and I are paying for them, whether we like it or not. |
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12 Apr 03 - 04:28 PM (#931955) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: McGrath of Harlow "...flawed as it is", and it certainly is flawed - but it's still "one person one vote". They can, and do, steal the votes, especially of poor people, as witness the Florida farce, and in effect it's possible to dazzle people into voting for you by throwing enough money around; and it's possible to use your power and influence to interfere with the counting on occasion, as in the Florida farce, once again; but situations where you actually get to vote more times than other people can, just because you are rich, are not that common these days. Theoretically the democratic system is supposed to mean everyone is equal. The market as a system of government does not even see this as possible or desirable, it's all about money as the way to buy influence and power, at all levels. It's plutocracy naked and unashamed. Whether that is better or worse than the system under which what is really is plutocracy disguises iitself as democracy is an interesting question. "Hypocrisy is the homage paid by vice to virtue" (Rochefoucauld, though people always seem to think it was Oscar Wilde coined that). |
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12 Apr 03 - 04:34 PM (#931958) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: CarolC A big part of it here, McGrath, is advertizing. In most cases, the candidates who can afford the most advertizing, get the most votes. |
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12 Apr 03 - 05:40 PM (#931993) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Bill D we have two conflicting issues....not enough people get out to vote, but when we DO urge those who are not highly motivated to vote, we get votes predicated on shallow thinking and media images...and money CAN buy lots of media images and sound bytes. |
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12 Apr 03 - 05:43 PM (#931997) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Amos Bill: How well do you think a campaign would fly on the theme of "Don't Vote if you Can't Think!" Doubt anyone would pay for it!! A |
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12 Apr 03 - 06:09 PM (#932015) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: McGrath of Harlow But we're moving on from "Whoever you vote for, the government always gets in" to "Whoever you elect, they aren't the people in charge of the things that really matter anyway". |
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12 Apr 03 - 08:20 PM (#932081) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* Carol is exactly right about "money equals votes" according to this article from Corpwatch.org - Top 200: The Rise of Global Corporate Power Money can not only buy media images and sound bytes, but also the lobbying institutions through which corporations "buy" governments, as well as voters. To quote the article above re the top 200 corporations of 1999, "B. Political Clout Campaign contributions The 82 U.S. companies on the Top 200 list made contributions to 2000 election campaigns through political action committees (not including soft money donations) that totaled $33,045,832. According to the Center for Responsive Politics, corporations in general outspent labor unions by a ratio of about 15-to-1. The group also found that candidates for the U.S. House of Representatives who outspent their opponents were victorious in 94 percent of their races. Unfortunately, campaign contribution data for non-U.S. firms is not available. Lobbying Of course global corporations also spend massive amounts each year influencing the political system through lobbying. The exact amount spent on these activities is not known, but of the Top 200 firms, 94 maintain ''government relations'' offices located on or within a few blocks of the lobbying capital of the world Washington, DC's K Street Corridor." (emphasis mine) "Plutocracy". Is that what this is?? daylia |
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13 Apr 03 - 09:49 AM (#932343) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: reggie miles A system which really is plutocracy disguised as democracy.... Sounds about right to me. I've read somewhere that the number of wealthy folks holding positions in our government has likened it to rich folks club. "Many Representatives and Senators are very wealthy : over 25% of Congress are millionaires."I found that info here What's a poor boy to do? |
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13 Apr 03 - 10:12 AM (#932357) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: McGrath of Harlow I came across an even more appropriate term for it today - "kleptocracy", rule by thieves. |
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13 Apr 03 - 10:26 AM (#932365) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* "Kleptocracy" - good one, Kevin. *sigh* And to add to another of this thread's "sub-discussions", this is from the article Reggie posted above (thanks, Reggie - very informative!) - "# Therefore, women only make up just under 12% of the House and just 9% of the Senate despite being more than 50% of America's population." Perhaps "Klepto-Testocracy" fits even better? daylia |
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13 Apr 03 - 11:33 AM (#932390) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: CarolC I like that one, daylia. Klepto-Testocracy it is ;-) |
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13 Apr 03 - 11:36 AM (#932393) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Jack the Sailor A boughtocracy? |
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13 Apr 03 - 11:39 AM (#932396) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: McGrath of Harlow That'd surely mean rule by ball-stealers! |
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13 Apr 03 - 11:40 AM (#932397) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: CarolC Testo-Kleptocracy then? |
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13 Apr 03 - 01:23 PM (#932446) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: reggie miles daylia LOL!!! |
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13 Apr 03 - 02:29 PM (#932490) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: *daylia* :) Klepto-Testocracy - "rule by ball stealers"! Hmmm, yet another weighty advantage to having the biggest balls of them all presents itself! I like Testo-Kleptocracy, Carol. But now I've got PluTesto-Kleptocracy bouncing around too ... what's a poor girl to do?? daylia |
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13 Apr 03 - 03:48 PM (#932541) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: reggie miles I'm likin' this more and more! LOL!!! |
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13 Apr 03 - 05:32 PM (#932607) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: CarolC Testosterone Driven Klepto-Plutocracy? |
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13 Apr 03 - 06:13 PM (#932630) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: McGrath of Harlow The Cult of Bushido? |
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13 Apr 03 - 06:19 PM (#932633) Subject: RE: BS: Are we the evil empire? From: Forum Lurker McGrath-Huh? Bushido is the code of the samurai, right? I'm not sure what it has to do with the subject at hand, unless you're equating feudal lords with a strong sense of personal honor and face with our current set of greedy, manipulative powermongers. |