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09 Apr 03 - 01:19 PM (#929670) Subject: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall Anyone who wants the real scoop on George, try this web site, and be thankful for the Freedom of information act. www.talion.com/georgebush.html |
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09 Apr 03 - 02:14 PM (#929726) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: katlaughing Jaysus, Cap't, that's quite a find! Everytime I hear something new about him, I detest him that much more and despair for our country. Thank you. I will be sharing this with friends and family. kat |
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09 Apr 03 - 02:24 PM (#929734) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Amos Nice find, there, Kendall -- kinda indicates the man is a liar, huh? A |
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09 Apr 03 - 02:39 PM (#929747) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Peg wow...that was so depressing I could only get about 3/4 of the way through it and bookmarked it to finish later. Thanks, kendall...wonder if this information will still be available when Bush tries for re-election? assuming he isn't assassinated or doesn't choke on a pretzel before then. |
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09 Apr 03 - 02:40 PM (#929748) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: GUEST,Casual Observer As if the others before him were not? What makes the current President a worse liar than some of his predecessors? Because you didn't vote for him? This happens every time someone new gets elected to just about anything. |
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09 Apr 03 - 02:41 PM (#929749) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Don Firth "When small men cast long shadows, the sun is going down." - Venita Cravens Don Firth |
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09 Apr 03 - 02:53 PM (#929762) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Ebbie And this is the man that many devout Christians think is the person God has brought forth at a critical time to restore the nation's commitment to faith and decency. GAAAACCCCCKKKKK |
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09 Apr 03 - 03:01 PM (#929774) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: GUEST,critical observer What makes the current President a worse liar than some of his predecessors? Because you didn't vote for him? Actually, what makes him a worse liar is that he is using his lies to wage a war in the name of the people of the United States. Big difference than lieing about sexual indiscretions or not inhaling. Where are those who made a big fuss about Clinton being "unfit to be Commander in Chief because he was a draft dodger" I agree that all politicians will get caught in lies, but when you continue to lie and lie and lie and put the young men and women of our country in harm's way, to say nothing of the innocents whose lives get lost, well........ What makes the current President a worse liar than some of his predecessors? Because you didn't vote for him? |
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09 Apr 03 - 03:28 PM (#929804) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: CarolC General William Turnipseed? Missing time, eh. Alien abduction perhaps? |
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09 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM (#929807) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: katlaughing Hahaha!! That's it, Carol!! He's a Walk-in, the real Dumbya is on a planet somewhere else and we're being led by an alien which took over his bod!! I love it!! Oh, wayd-da-minut...I think that happened when he was just a baby, so...ummmm...maybe he's been an evil alien for a lot longer than we knew! **BG** |
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09 Apr 03 - 03:55 PM (#929832) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Rapparee ...told you folks before that the REAL George W. Bush was sacrificed to Moloch as an infant.... |
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09 Apr 03 - 04:02 PM (#929845) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Beccy Oh, yes... Totally unbiased reporting. In case you all missed the hatred dripping from between the lines, let me refresh you. "In his book, Mr. Bush offers a lovely-sounding (but bald-faced) lie to describe his F-102 fighter pilot experience" "Well, that is an odd way to describe ignoring two direct orders to appear for duty. He was then assigned to a disciplinary unit in Denver, and he didn't show up for that either." "Both the Bush Senior military tapes and the hand-picked bin Laden tapes provided a Texas-sized helping of White-House-friendly sound bytes, repeated dozens of times a day" All out of context? You bet, but when I read the article, all I took from it was that someone with some MAJOR sour grapes and a big, bitter attitude wrote a grudge piece. Beccy |
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09 Apr 03 - 04:15 PM (#929857) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Don Firth Yes, Beccy, it is pretty obvious that whoever put that together is not real fond of George W. Bush, which, of course, is grounds for you to disbelieve it. But there is the uncomfortable problem of all those the sources and footnotes that the author cited, which, were you so inclined, would enabling you to look up the data for yourself. Facts are a real pain in the behind, aren't they? Don Firth |
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09 Apr 03 - 04:18 PM (#929858) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: katlaughing Which article, Beccy? There were several with links. Did you read any of the actual official documents? You know, the ones which do not lie...and show that he really was relieved of flying because he wouldn't take the medical test, pesky things always test for drugs; or the others documenting the direct order he failed to obey; or, any of the many others for which there were links? Tough to admit one's *hero* is a consistent liar, isn't it? They say admitting it is the first step to recovery...maybe someone should tell him that. |
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09 Apr 03 - 04:30 PM (#929870) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Bobert Like this is any thing new. Ol' hillbilly been seeing thru his lies and those of the crooks that he's been hanging around with. I used to thinkl that Powell wouldn't stoop as low as he has, but he does have a son who will also loose his political plum job as FCC chairmna, so I guess that makes 'em all crooks and liars. Much worse than the last bunch. They were just liars but not in the same league with Bush and Co. when it comes to outright crookery! Well, the next few months will show just what crooks and liars they are as they rig up their guys in Iraq, and then real *deals* and *ball games* will begin. Oh yeah, just like in the US, Bush will talk the talk 'cause that's all he knows how to do, but he won't walk the walk. Forget democracy when he's having anti-war demonstartors shot in the streets of America... Bobert |
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09 Apr 03 - 05:18 PM (#929912) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Beccy I never said he was my hero. I like him marginally. However, the article that I read was in fact written in a very combative manner. I was pointing that out. Yes, facts are a pain in the rear- as in when someone points out something that you don't want to hear. Beccy |
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09 Apr 03 - 05:20 PM (#929916) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Beccy Oh, and I read the whole article and 80% of the footnotes AND linked to a great many of the sources and read those, too. I still say it's a grudge piece. Does pointing that out make Bush my hero? Hardly. Do I think he's the right man for the job right now? Yes- and I'm ever so glad that Al Gore and Nader were not installed in office. Hallelujah, people. Beccy |
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09 Apr 03 - 05:36 PM (#929924) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: harpgirl Refresh my memory, Beccy. Just why is it that the United States and Britan need to wage war on IraQ? |
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09 Apr 03 - 05:43 PM (#929925) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Don Firth Hallelujah, Jeb and Katherine. Now, there's an interesting story for some enterprising investigative reporter. OH! By Golly! There are some who have already dug into that one. One of many. Don Firth |
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09 Apr 03 - 05:50 PM (#929928) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: GUEST,Casual Observer Oh gee, Critical, you're right. Clinton never put any young men and women in harm's way. I forgot. Sorry. He was a perfect example of everything a great American leader should be. Of course. |
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09 Apr 03 - 05:56 PM (#929935) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Bobert Clinton was a jerk and a liar but realitivly harmless compared to the lieing jerk de jour.... Bobert |
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09 Apr 03 - 06:14 PM (#929949) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall As Jack Nicholsone said in A FEW GOOD MEN ""YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH." I am probably going to lose a friend because she would rather stick t0 her false belief about this creep than to face the truth. And, the fact that the writer doesn't like Bush does not in any way change the facts. Some of us knew from the start that he was a drunk, a drug user, a liar and a draft dodger. Too bad all those Nader voters didn't know. |
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09 Apr 03 - 06:51 PM (#929976) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: CraigS Ancient English saying - You can tell when a politician is lying because his lips move. Don't try to check the references - they won't agree by now. Rewriting history was perfected in the USSR fifty years ago, and learned by the US in the cold war. What you've got to worry about are the Funny People - every country has them, Molder was not entirely misled, the truth is out there. |
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09 Apr 03 - 07:28 PM (#930000) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Bobert You know what I find curious, Kendall, is that this guy is so arrogant that he doesn't even attempt to cover his lies and crookery6. He just goes, "huff and puff" and all these folks who know deep down inside that he's lieing thru his teeth, swoon. This says more about the American people than Bush. Man, ol' Tom Jefferson would puke at the gullibility of the masses. Bobert |
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09 Apr 03 - 08:13 PM (#930032) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall Remember "Tailgunner" Joe McCarthy? R Senator from Min. The liar was never a tail gunner, or any other gunner. |
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10 Apr 03 - 01:51 AM (#930226) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: DougR Wow! Talion.com! A low cost publicity firm! Where did you drag this one up from Kendall? Anybody read the material on their website? Seems like a real steller publicity organization to me. I they play their cards right, they might snag the DNC as a client! :>) DougR |
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10 Apr 03 - 01:59 AM (#930231) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Peg Gee, Doug, perhaps you could point us to a website that offers some positive information about Mr. Bush's military service... what's that, you say? There isn't any? Or you're too busy trying to be sarcastic to bother to actually contribute anything??? |
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10 Apr 03 - 02:27 AM (#930238) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: mg I have military service and I respect anyone who did whatever they did in any regular or reserve or guard unit. I do not follow President Bush's military career and know there are some irregularities..perhaps he was a deserter of sorts. I don't know. But he put on the uniform and he learned to fly the planes and I for one will not call him a draft dodger. The positive information is he took on one of the hardest jobs in the military, at least never crashed to my knowledge, and may or may not have been prepared to fly in combat. I don't know what he would have done if he had gotten orders. I personally will give him the benefit of the doubt and if others want to share their military experience as a basis for judging his, have at it. mg |
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10 Apr 03 - 05:32 AM (#930284) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall What doubt? |
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10 Apr 03 - 05:35 AM (#930286) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall All I did was go to google, type in "George Bush Military Record" and that's what came up. If it's not true. they should be sued for libel. Maybe this is why Bush never mentioned Clinton being a draft dodger? It's impossible to throw mud without getting some on you. |
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10 Apr 03 - 10:57 AM (#930443) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall Just as I predicted, my friend is no longer my friend. I dug up the truth on Bush, and rather than admit she is wrong, she walks. Who needs friends like that anyway? I just don't understand people who cling to a false belief in the face of truth to the contrary. She is loyal to the republican party, and, I am loyal to the truth. |
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10 Apr 03 - 12:04 PM (#930477) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: GUEST The word "lie" is spelled with "ie," and so is "lied." However, you substitute a "y" for the "ie" when you add "ing," so it's "lying" not "lieing" There. I feel better. |
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10 Apr 03 - 12:19 PM (#930482) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Lepus Rex (Note: Evil Drunken Fascist Republican Senator Joe McCarthy, was from Wisconsin, also home of... Wisconsin Dells and... cheese and... deer. Lovable DFL Senator Eugene McCarthy was the Senator from Minnesota. :) ) (---Lepus Rex) |
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10 Apr 03 - 01:06 PM (#930496) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Amos Quite right, Lepus. What IS a "Lepus" anyway? As far as W is concerned, the guy did what he did, and he said what he said. If they don't match up within reason, he is falsifying the facts. This is not rocket science. Lies is lies. That doesn't mean he isn't a world-class emperor. It just means he's a liar. A |
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10 Apr 03 - 01:28 PM (#930505) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Ebbie I'm sorry about your 'friend', Kendall. Danged. I find myself in the position of just staying away for now from some family- they know where I stand, and they're welcome to discuss it/me amongst themselves- but I don't want the hassle and frayed tempers. To me it's apparent they refuse to look at facts that mandate a certain conclusion; while they, I believe, would say that it's all gossip and that loyalty in their book (implying, unlike in mine)is an essential quality. (Ya can't win.) |
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10 Apr 03 - 01:40 PM (#930520) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Troll How typical. George Bush has just been instrumental in the overthrow of one of the most viscious dictators since Josef Stalin. QUICK! Lets dig up as much dirt as we can on him and post it. That'll take some of the luster off his victory and we won't look like such asses for our anti-war rhetoric. Put the focus on what he did and didn't do twenty and thirty years ago. For G-ds sake, don't let anyone focus on what he has just acomplished. No one needs to hear about how the Iraqis cheered the US and George Bush, thanking them for lifting them from 25 years of horror; horror that the UN could not stop or would not stop. No one wants to see the picture of the Iraqi man kissing George Bushs picture or pulling down Saddam Husseins statues. Please don't talk about the prison full of children that was liberated; children who were imprisoned -some as young as 9 or 10- for refusing to join Saddam Husseins version of the Hitlerjugen; some imprisoned for as long as 3 years. No one wants to hear about the torture chambers in the Iraqi prisons or read the accounts of the prisoners who survived them. None of you previous anti-Bush posters want any credit to go to George Bush for any of the good he has done in ridding the world of a monster. You would much rather find things to condemn him for. You have all become what you profess to hate; small-minded, petty, mean-spirited. May your bigotry serve you well for you have forfeited the right to respect. troll BTW, I don't care for Bush and I didn't vote for him but I am willing to give the Devil his due, which is more than any of YOU,?I> can say. |
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10 Apr 03 - 01:46 PM (#930528) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Bobert Well, Ebbie, if they accept that Bush told *one lie* then the rest of Bush's administartion becomes nuthin' more than a house of cards. I believe the buzz word is "denial". Bobert |
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10 Apr 03 - 01:52 PM (#930536) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Ebbie troll, did you ever really doubt that Bush/USA could bring down the Iraqi regime? (The only wild card is whether Hussein actually had WMDs. I believe our government was pretty damn sure he didn't.) That left high tech, overwhelming superiority in numbers and a willingness to go deeply into debt to finance a war- how was Iraq to withstand that? I can be glad that Hussein is gone- but in the process, how many Hussein's have we created? In my opinion, you ain't thinkin. |
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10 Apr 03 - 02:05 PM (#930544) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: katlaughing Bush didn't have much to do with it, at all and it is not a fait accompli, yet. It was our young people and their military leaders and, as Ebbie says, there really cannot have been any doubt as to the outcome. |
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10 Apr 03 - 02:18 PM (#930552) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Amos Kat: Bush had a lot to do with it; it would not have occurred when it did without his high-risk political brinkmanship, which I did not support at the time. He was determined to march on Iraq from the outset and ducked and weaved determinedly to make it happen. His efforts included falsifying the picture regarding WMD and frequently changing his statement of purpose (WMD, threat to West, Al Qaeda links, liberation). As it has developed liberation is the theme that carried the freighrt so he's sticking with it mostly at present. WMD remains to be seen. So, sure, give him credit for perseverance, and making the war with Iraq happen. But Troll, the man is not a believer in truth, and I reckon we oughta own up to that side of his ... unusual personality as well. A |
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10 Apr 03 - 02:34 PM (#930561) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall We should all be glad the bastard is gone; but, I believe it could have been done without so many lives lost. Of course, if you don't count Iraqi lives, then there wer'nt that many. We can also be proud that , just like Mussolini in 1936, we have kicked the shit out of a paper army. You will recall that Mussolini invaded Ethiopia to "Restore the glory of Rome". Tanks and cannons and machine guns against spears and arrows. Sure most of his lies were back a few years (not all) but, my point is, if daddy hadn't had his record washed, he would not be president. If his Florida mafia hadn't been headed by his brother, he wouldn't be president. In other words, he has no right to that office, so, in my opinion, anything he does is illegal. This "war" is both unnecessary and illegal. And, he just set the stage for more Bin Ladens. Anyone who thinks this is going to stop terrorism is silly. The Jews and Arabs know that first hand. |
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10 Apr 03 - 02:38 PM (#930569) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall Folks, please, this is not about Clinton, or what Gore or Nader MIGHT have done, it is about Bush, the liar, the drunk, the druggie, the phoney draft dodger. Comparing him to Clinton is silly, as if it somehow excuses him. |
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10 Apr 03 - 02:55 PM (#930578) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: DougR Kendall: if ALL of those stories printed by smut media and advertising houses (seeking peacnic clients obviously)were true, The New York Times and the Washington Post would be on them like flies on you know what! I would remind you, kat, as Amos did, that GWB is Commander in Chief of the Armed forces. The war would not have taken place had he not given the go-ahead. Saddam would still be there were it not for George W. Bush and Tony Blair. Ebbie: Seems the Marines may have made an interesting discovery. You might want to hold off on predicting they will find no WMDs. It might jump up and bite you in the you-know-what. Peg: what do you mean TRYING to be sarcastic? DougR DougR |
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10 Apr 03 - 03:09 PM (#930584) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: katlaughing Well, I was thinking of the literal invasion...I should have clarified it. He did stay back and pull all kinds of stunts to get his way, I'll give you that. Dredging up older facts is something of a GOP tactic, Doug, I'd think you'd be proud of the rest of us adopting such tactics. |
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10 Apr 03 - 05:31 PM (#930675) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Troll These facts have been available on the internet for several years. The only reason to bring them up at the present time is that the liberals cannotSTAND the idea that George Bush was successful at ANYTHING let alone a war that they all opposed sovehemently. Thousands of American servicemen will come home in bodybags was just one of the predictions. It will be a house-to-house fight with thousands of casualties on both sides was another. The US can't win a war, was another. Now that all these things have been proven false, the only thing left is to attack Bushs past; to try to somehow negate what he has accomplished by by saying "Look how horrible he WAS". That dog won't hunt. Kendall, just how do you think it could have been done without so many lives lost. And yes, I DO count Iraqi lives. They are, after all, human beings. That's one of the reasons we went in; so that those human beings might have a chance at the freedom that so many Americans take for granted. So how would you have done it? Please don't bring up the UN, who did nothing for twelve long years. Ebbie, you are the one who isn't thinking. Just how will our overthrowing Saddam Hussein create more Saddam Husseins? Remember, he was the dictator of a country. How is this going to create more dictators? As far as Saddam Husseins forces being a "paper Army" Kendall, why don't you look up the numbers -what he had versus what we broght- and get back to me. Besides his army, the Iraqi people were supposed to rise up and fight as well. After all, we saw them on T>V>, shouting "Death to Bush" and "We Love Saddam Hussein" didn't we? I say again; everything you are posting is sour grapes. Bush and his cabinet and his generals came up with a plan, put it into execution, made minor changes where necessary, and came home a winner. The world now knows that America has a President who will do what he says on the international stage. The Arab states respect strength, it's about the only thing they DO respect. This should set the stage for doing something about the Israeli/Palestinian Arab problem> And where is Kim Jong-Il. Where is the dictator of North Korea with his grandiose pronouncments and his insults? He has been rather quiet of late, don't you think? Maybe he is re-thinking his position in light of the past three weeks. Maybe challenging the US isn't such a good idea after all. Finally (for this post) it seems to me that it was the liberal establishment who tried to excuse Clintons lack of any discernable moral code by saying that character and integrity weren't important; what counted were results. I guess that only applies to Democrats. troll |
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10 Apr 03 - 05:49 PM (#930685) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Greg F. Troll, you're getting WAY ahead of yourself. Give this Glorious Victory of the world's largest and richest superpower over a second-rate third-world country a few years to stew- then we'll see how bloody wonderful the results are. |
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10 Apr 03 - 06:24 PM (#930712) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: katlaughing How glorious is it to turn the world against us and instill hatred for us among so many, thus increasing the chances for anti-American terrorism? Ya'll are counting your chickens before they've come home to roost. |
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10 Apr 03 - 06:30 PM (#930718) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Forum Lurker Troll- You said "How is this going to create more dictators?" The answer is warlordism. Just like in Afghanistan, where the removal of the Taliban allowed warlords to expand their control, it is quite possible that warlords will take over following U.S. withdrawal from Iraq, should such an event actually occur. Iraq's army was pretty much a paper tiger, given how easily and one-sidedly we defeated them; I think casualty figures put the ratio somewhere around 25 to 1. I don't understand why you think this puts us in a better position to work towards peace in Israel and Palestine; instead of looking like impartial diplomats, we'll look like empire-builders. |
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10 Apr 03 - 07:38 PM (#930753) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall Troll, my friend, the fact is, Bush has never been successful at ANYTHING except stealing the election with the help of crooked relatives and other politicians. Now, I give him credit for bringing down Saddam. I expect the Italians gave Moussolini credit for bringing down Hille Salassi (sic) in Ethipoia too.Tanks and cannons against spears and arrows, thats something to be proud of. Do you really think this is going to sstop terrorism? the other Arab states are very nervous. What? because they are convinced that we are out to destroy Islam, and you can bet your ass they will hit us again, and again. Anyway, the wicked witch is dead (they think). I had no doubt that we would win the war, but I have grave doubts about us winning the peace. However if Bush manages to win the peace, maybe he will get around to doing something about the economy that is sinking deeper and deeper into the shitter. He knows how to start a war, now he needs to learn how to deal with the economy. Remember FDR? he was elected because Hoover had no clue what to do about the depression. Bush 1 was also defeated for knowing nothing. Doug, do you think ALL of those sources are wrong? |
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10 Apr 03 - 08:47 PM (#930785) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Greg F. Douggie doesn't need sources, Kendall- he has FOX News[sic]- and from the evidence of his posts, its more that he feels than thinks. |
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10 Apr 03 - 09:05 PM (#930794) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall What we need for the economy is another Smooth/Hawley tariff act! NOT! |
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10 Apr 03 - 09:06 PM (#930796) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall That's SMOOT, not smooth |
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10 Apr 03 - 09:15 PM (#930801) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Ebbie "Just how will our overthrowing Saddam Hussein create more Saddam Husseins? Remember, he was the dictator of a country. How is this going to create more dictators?" Maybe I should have said 'Khomeini'? And 'warlords' is good. We have opened the box- and frankly, we are not in control of what comes flying out. |
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10 Apr 03 - 09:16 PM (#930802) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Bobert Kendall: There are a bunch of rich folks and lawyers outside that want to talk with you. Seems that you went and gave credit for Bush's theft of the election to his "friends and other politicans" and they *want* an apology for not giving them credit???.... Hmmmmmm? Looks like yer in for an evening of doing the "dance of dieing duck" with there folks... Glad I ain't you tonight... Bobert |
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10 Apr 03 - 10:50 PM (#930837) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: GUEST,pdc I'm sorry, I can't resist this ... It occurs to me that Bush is trying to one-up Clinton. Clinton only screwed an intern, and Bush is trying to screw the whole world. |
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10 Apr 03 - 11:11 PM (#930846) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Troll You just can't bring yourself to admit it, can you people? If it had not been for Bushs insistance, Saddam Hussein and his bully boys would be torturing people in the prisons of Baghdad right now. So what if Saddam Husseins army was third-rate? It was STILL protecting a monster and oppressing the people of Iraq. Should we have gone in man for man, tank for tank, gun for gun, and made it a "fair" fight? Someone's been watching too many Gene Autry movies again. The regiem had to be removed and no one else had the balls to do it. If you think it wasn't George Bush, then who did take overall command. He is the Commander-in Chief and he gave the orders. No, he didn't formulate the plan. That was left, and rightly so, to the professionals and they have done a marvelous job to date. The situation in Iran that brought about the rise of the Ayatollas was totally different. There you had a power vacuum created when Carter withdrew support from the Shah of Iran and a revered religious figure stepped in to fill it. There was no US presence to aid in any kind of transition. Carter basically stopped US support for the Shah and then waited to see what would happen. The chances of a similar situation in Iraq or anywhere else are not very good. The Taliban were only able to grab control because they were well organized. The majority of Afghans did not and do not support their brand of Islam. The Arabs couldn't dislike us much more than they do at present so I don't believe that the ousting of Saddam Hussein will cause any appreciable increase in that hatred. Most of the Arab world had little use for the Iraqi regeime and are not sadened that he is gone. What HAS hurt their pride is that Saddam Husseins army didn't make a better showing against the coalition. But the Arabs respect strength and Bush has showed them that he is strong. We'll have to wait and see on that one. Lurker, the tribal system in Iraq is not the same as what exists in Afghanistan so I don't believe that warlords will be a problem. The reason that I think that we are now in a better position to deal with the Israeli/Palestinian Arab problem is that the Arab world now sees an American President who is strong in a way that they can respect. If Bush will set limits on the Israelis with regards to how far we are willing to back them, I think the Arab States will pressure the Palestinian Arabs also. He should be able to do this since he has now established that he will do what he says. Kendall, I agree about the economy. kat, the world, in case you hadn't noticed, was already against us so I fail to see how this will increase the chances of terrorism. They couldn't be much more jealous or hate us much more than they do already and so what? The world now knows that hwtaever terrorists may do, we will survive and come out the stronger for it. And we WILL find them. It may take years but we will find them. I'd rather be able to hold my head up and know that my country rid the world of a monster, even at the possible cost of more terrorist activity, than slink around with my tail between my legs, afraid to do what is right because it might upset some terrorist. "It is better to be a live Jackel than a dead Lion. But it's even better to be a live Lion. And it's usually easier." from "The Notebooks of Lazarus Long" by Robert Heinlein troll |
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10 Apr 03 - 11:15 PM (#930851) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Forum Lurker Troll-The Palestinians do not respect leaders like Bush. If they did, they would have made concessions to Sharon as soon as he started bulldozing homes and assassinating Hamas leaders. Also, I don't think that the argument "They hate us so much already, we might as well piss them off some more" is going to help our national security. |
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11 Apr 03 - 01:54 AM (#930923) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: mg and how does anyone know whether or not he volunteered for Vietnam? I know there was a form to fill out, which I did, but there are also all sorts of unofficial ways to volunteer...mg |
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11 Apr 03 - 02:06 AM (#930925) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: DougR troll: whatever led you to believe that most of these folks cared a rat's ass about the Iraqi people? You tabbed it right in another thread when you stated (paraphrasing) that most of these folks on the Mudcat would rather see the Iraqi people continue to be repressed by Saddam, than give any credit to President Bush. So be it. Speaks tons of words about the compassion of the so-called liberals on the Mudcat doesn't it? DougR |
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11 Apr 03 - 05:01 AM (#930969) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: katlaughing Doug, it's really pathetic that you can think of no other way to debate your points than to make incorrect assumptions and assertions about fellow Mudcatters. Our opposition to the war has nothing to do with saddam and everything to do with how shrub alienated the entire world by how he went about it. kat, the world, in case you hadn't noticed, was already against us so I fail to see how this will increase the chances of terrorism. They couldn't be much more jealous or hate us much more than they do already and so what? The world now knows that hwtaever terrorists may do, we will survive and come out the stronger for it. And we WILL find them. It may take years but we will find them. The world didn't hate us so much until shrub started his chest-beating, we're going to conquer the world rhetoric and his complete and utter disregard for the UN and for the nations of the world over the past two years. It will take a very long time to mend those relationships and I, for one, believe they are very important. Do you really want our country to the Big Bully - Lone Gunman, hated and terrorist-prone for many years to come? Do you believe that we will "find" the terrorists in our own country whether they fit the current Arab profile or not? Do you want all of our young people to be continually sacrificed while shrub et alia continue their megalomanical world domination campaign? Do you have any hope of peace throughout the world within your heart, or even a desire for such? shurb has done nothing to promote such and, imo, never will. One never even hears him speak the word, let alone seek to promote peace. The curse of me and my nation is that we always think things can be bettered by immediate action of some sort, any sort rather than no sort.~ Ezra Pound ~ |
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11 Apr 03 - 09:19 AM (#931072) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall Let's go back to the REAL beginning, Troll. The Balfour declaration, the establishment of the modern state of Israel. The UN grabbed a huge chunk of Palistine and gave it to the Jews. We have backed the jews all the way to the detrement of the Arabs. THATS WHY THEY HATE US. And who the hell wouldn't? They are convinced that we are out to destroy Islam, and this is where we need a peace chief. It will be much harder to win the peace than the war, and Bush is a war chief. |
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11 Apr 03 - 09:25 AM (#931078) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall If you read the letter from Lord Balfour, you will see that all hands went a bit overboard. I declare: There can be no peace in the middle east until we level the playing field. We MUST start treating the Arabs with respect. If we don't, there will be more terrorism. Anyone with more than a teaspoon full of brains can see that. |
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11 Apr 03 - 09:43 AM (#931089) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Bobert Doug: What Kat said plus: Are you trying to tell me that the US could not have taken Saddam out with a single bullet? If you believe that then I have a bridge to sell you? Saddam has never been the issue. This invasion has been in the Perle/Wolfowitz/et al drawing board going back into the early 90's. All we have done now for the Iraqi people is plunge the country intyo chaos, destabilized the region, pissed off half the world (at least) and insured that our future will involve more terrorism, rather than less. Lets do a little review here, Dougie. A bunch of Sauidi's hyjack 4 airliners and use them as weapons against us. Right? So we shhot and bomb Afghanistan. We shoot and bomd Iraqis. And now were shooting out own people who staepped forward to say, "Hey, Bush, you've got the wrong guy!" Hmmmmmm? And so now this morning you accuse those of us who have tried put forth plans that would peacefully resolve conflict in favor of shooting and bombing folks as Saddam lovers. Ahhhhh, you need to get your Arizona slide rule re-calibrated, my friend... Peace Bobert |
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11 Apr 03 - 10:10 AM (#931110) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: leprechaun There's katlaughing giving us lesson about hate. I saw a framed photograph of George W. Bush outside the entrance to a federal office I visited yesterday. I decided I want one for my living room. |
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11 Apr 03 - 11:39 AM (#931188) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Amos Maybe we oughta erect one of those giant statues? Seemed to help keep people under control there in Iraq, huh? A |
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11 Apr 03 - 12:28 PM (#931228) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall I have a plastic cutout of Clinton on the wall switch to my bathroom. His pants are down to his feet, and the switch protrudes from his boxers. Now, if I could find one of Bush where his lying tongue was represented by the switch... |
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11 Apr 03 - 12:45 PM (#931236) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Ebbie pssst... troll, go talk to the skeptic and then get back to us. |
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11 Apr 03 - 01:10 PM (#931250) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Greg F. Save your money on the photo of Dumbya- just frame a Mad Magazine cover- same thing. Well, no...... that's not really fair to Alfred. |
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11 Apr 03 - 01:51 PM (#931267) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: DougR Bobert: duck and weave any dirction that you like, if you were fair, you wold admit that if you, and those that think like you, had had your way, the Iraqi people would still be under the thumb of Saddam and he would still be in power. Your "one bullit" theory is about as practical as suggesting that diplomatic measures would have accomplished the same thing that the war did. DougR |
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11 Apr 03 - 02:01 PM (#931273) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Amos DougR: I hope against hope that the liberation wehave now provided the people of Iraq will in fact turn out to be a blessing, and that somehow they can find a patht o build a civilization of their own design which works. What I think is going to happen, though, is that we will not stop meddling and trying to export all our best ideas into a culture that does not want our best ideas, much to the detriment and loss of the best ideas they have come up with indigenously. If we gain market share from Walmart, but lose the familial, musical, or philosophical traditions which have come down clear from ancient Mesopotamia in the bargain, I am not sure it's a good trade overall. A |
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11 Apr 03 - 02:48 PM (#931285) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall Doug, you are right. But, why US? he was no threat to us, why didn't his neighbors deal with him? Where are the weapons of mass destruction? I just can't help thinking that Bush went to war because he failed us in his promise to "Get Bin Laden" and, it is obvious to all that he can't deal with the economy. This is a good way to keep us distracted from OUR problem. It worked for the "Actor" in Granada, and Bush 1 in Panama. Remember Panama? Bush 1 said to take out Noreaga would stem the flow of drugs. Sure, we know how successful he was; because of his inability to lead, look what we got stuck with. Of course, he did leave a huge surplus which the shrub has spent along with the goodwill we had worldwide after 9 11. His secretary of "Offense" has pissed off all of our allies, and, when Blair wakes up to what Bush is up to, he may declare war on us! |
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11 Apr 03 - 03:05 PM (#931292) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Ebbie Here's something I haven't noticed in the news before. The April 7 issue of TIME Magazine had this blurb: "Some Democrats are already balking at another Bush initiative: in addition to a request for $75 billion to pay for the war, the Administration is drafting ambitious postwar plans that include providing health care to the entire Iraqi population." Has anyone else heard that? |
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11 Apr 03 - 03:33 PM (#931304) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Ebbie I just came across this in a link that was posted on another thread: "What empires lavish abroad, they cannot spend on good republican government at home: on hospitals or roads or schools. A distended military budget only aggravates America's continuing failure to keep its egalitarian promise to itself." |
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11 Apr 03 - 03:49 PM (#931314) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: GUEST,pdc "I saw a framed photograph of George W. Bush outside the entrance to a federal office I visited yesterday. I decided I want one for my living room." Maybe you can get one done on black velvet! |
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11 Apr 03 - 04:39 PM (#931351) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: katlaughing Ebbie, I remember the rebuild iraq budget caused quie a stir a few weeks ago, just after Oregon announced it was having to close schools early this year due to lack of budget and kids in LA had no books. I posted about it in one of the war threads. Not only does he want to build schools, but also budget for the teachers, books, etc.; rebuild the banking system, etc. if I can find the thread later I will post it. I did find a few things on google: DoD Backgrounder on Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance in Post-War Iraq and, from this link:: A senior Defense Department official said that "a lot of time" has been spent determining pay scales for Iraqi teachers, police officers and court workers. Yount said lawmakers have been regularly briefed on developments. USAID agreed to provide a broad overview of some of the work put out to bid, including seaport and airport administration, school and hospital construction, teacher training, textbook printing and promotion of democratic principles through local governments. But lawmakers say that not enough has been done to explain to the U.S. public what the long-term plans are. The Pentagon's Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance has plans to get all Iraqi children in school and to distribute school supplies. The $100 million contract covers five pilot programs for "accelerated learning" and then will become the national program within 10 months. |
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11 Apr 03 - 05:31 PM (#931383) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Bobert Doug: Maybe and maybe not. I can think of other ways to get rid of Saddam other than blowing the crap out of Iraq and reducing it to total chaos. I'm glad you weren't a doctor, Dougie, 'cause with your and Bush's logic (or lack thereof...) you'd be amputating entire arms for hangnails. This isn't bob and weave on *my* part. Your guys are doing all the bobbing and weaving. Your guy Rumsfeld refers to toal chaos and massave looting as "untidiness"? Hmmmmmmmm? Brings a new meaning to the word intidiness. Nope, now that your team has made this terrible mess, which it apparently didn't realize could happen from bombing the heck out Iraq, what are your guys going to do next? Ahhhhh, other than occupy. "Well, we're gonna have to stay here. Seems these folks need a little supervision." And I'm paying for this? Man, why doesn't the "lemon law" apply to presidents? Bobert |
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11 Apr 03 - 07:28 PM (#931457) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall Ref. that picture of GW Bush, did you see the one of Bush 1 on the floor of that building in Iraq? It was a mosaic plced in such a way to make it impossible for people to enter without stepping on it. |
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11 Apr 03 - 08:52 PM (#931512) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Amos That reminds me of a song, Bobert: Lemon Bush, velly pletty An' de PR is awful sweet But dey is still some kinds of bullshit Is eeempossible to eat Take it away, man! I notice the house has gotten all enlightened about Energy now, and decided to drill in the wilderness to move us a little closer to the future. And turned down amendments to include improvements in fuel efficiency and environmental impact. A |
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11 Apr 03 - 09:40 PM (#931526) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Bobert Ahhhh, normal, Amos! It's all part of *The Plan*. Just sit back and enjoy it. Don't worry, it's all been carefully thought out, Amos. Just take a deep breath and exhale. Now don't you feel so much better now, Amos, It's all going to be just fine, Amos. Just sit back and watch in wonderment and awe, Amos. Everything is under control. Just sit back...... bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbobert............. All is in good hands.................................................. |
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12 Apr 03 - 12:51 AM (#931587) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: DougR Kevin: why don't we wait a bit and see what evidence there might be that Saddam was a threat to us? President Bush has said that he was. Let's see what might be found in Iraq to support his belief. It's just too early to tell. It's easy to speculate, but instead of seeing a half empty glass, why not, for once view it as a half full glass. Patience, my friend. If nothing is found to tie Saddam to world-wide terrorism, including Al Quida, I'll glady eat crow. DougR |
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12 Apr 03 - 03:00 AM (#931617) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Troll The danger to the US was that Saddam Hussein would have given or sold WMDs to the terrorist organizations. His was the one regiem that we knew had stockpiles of poison gas and Bio weapons and it was known that he had a nuclear program going. kat, if you think that appeasement is the way to go, be my guest. But I don't believe you can show me ONE country where a dictator of Saddam Husseins stripe was removed through appeasement. I refer you to the Munich Accord of 1939(?) which gave the Sudetenland to the Nazis as a classic case of appeasment failure. I never said the war would cause the Arabs to like us. I said it would make them respect us and I frankly don't give two whoops in Hell if they hate us because they have hated us all along. You just haven't seen it. Before the war, that hatred was mixed with contempt because they thought that we would not, could not sustain a war; that as soon as there were casualties, we would withdraw a'la Somalia. They now know differently. There was a a whine that bin Laden hasn't been caught yet. So? What did you expect, the whole thing wraped up in 53 minutes like Mission Imposible? Welcome to the real world. We have driven him into hiding from which he cannot be very effective and, as a by-product of the war, The Saudis have said that they will increase their efforts to trace the funding coming from the Arab world to bin Ladens terrorists. As far as the WMDS go, we need to find scientists who worked on the things to tell us where to look. That was the problem with the Inspectors, they were simply opening doors and hoping that something would be behind them. There is one site -the Al Tuwaitha nuclear complex- where they may have found weapons grade plutonium. They don't know for sure yet. The site is so "hot" that the Hazmat suits they have on hand can't handle it. Regarding the school situation in Oregon and California, why is it the job of the Federal Govt. to bail out states who can't seem to keep their financial houses in order? The rules governing the use of federal money are already taking up valuable teaching time with filling out forms and covering a cretain body of work in a given time period. Never mind if the kids learn the material, just cover it so we'll continue to get our Federal funding. Ebbie, I talk to Skeptic every day. I don't try to convince him and he doesn't try to convince me. We exchange ideas. troll |
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12 Apr 03 - 03:16 AM (#931622) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: katlaughing You sidestepped some of my questions, Troll. Also, I have never said we should just "appease" Saddam. I and other have advocated more restraint and diplomacy. I know you'll say I am splitting hairs, but i really don't like it when I am misrepresented. Also, you said why is it the job of the Federal Govt. to bail out states who can't seem to keep their financial houses in order? I would ask why is it the job of the Federal Govt. AND us, the taxpayers, to rebuild the educational, financial, and healthcare systems of Iraq? Esp. when our own citizens do not enjoy the same? Of course, this is to say nothing about your claim that states are unable to keep their finances in order, esp. since you are supportive of an asshole who has driven our economy into a deep, deep hole of deficit-spending which our children will be digging out for years to come. Oh, and they will probably do it working for minimum wage as they won't have the education to earn more. So, whoopee...we supposedly kicked some ass and Saddam is no more? Who knows? Do the Arabs hate us more? Yes. Does it matter? Maybe not to you, but it does to a whole lot of other people in the world, not the least of which are probably a lot of Americans of Arab descent, or don't they count? Funny, somehow I never took you for a racist, until your last post. |
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12 Apr 03 - 03:43 AM (#931632) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: GUEST More food for thought: http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=LLFNUV1OE53V0CRBAEOCFEY?type=topNews&storyID=2553469 |
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12 Apr 03 - 04:20 AM (#931635) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Troll Racist? HOW DARE YOU! Simply because I state a truth that you and yours don't want to face, I'm a racist? Just what definition of racism are you using. Please post it because I want to be sure I understand the perjorative terms you throw around so loosely. I am well aware that there are Arab Americans who are upset because their families back in the old country don't love America. Do you honestly think that the Arab states would have hated us any less if we hadn't taken Saddam Hussein down? Remember, most of them didn't have a whole lot of use for him. The Arab World hates us because our culture (western) supplanted theirs as the dominant culture in the world. It happened a long time ago but they are still chaffing about it. Remember when George Bush used the word "crusade" just after 9/11? The Arab World went apeshit. And that was 1,000years ago. And in the end they WON. They have long memories and they long for past glories. Thats why they hate us. America reminds them of what they once were. As far as advocating more restraint and diplomacy, what did 12 years of restraint and diplomacy get us? Nothing, zip, nada. Anything that would have left Saddam Hussein in power to keep murdering his own people is appeasment in my book. You can put whatever face on it you like. It won't change the fact that allowing a regeim like that to continue as long as it did is a stain on the character of every decent person in the world.. It will not be soon erased. I do not favor deficit spending. I pay as I go and I feel that states and nations should do the same. Deficit spending is not new and it will continue as long as the public allows it to. I didn't sidestep your "questions". I ignored them because I felt that they were rhetorical. Yes I want peace. But not at the cost of freedom. The people of North Korea have peace. Is that what you want for the world? I do not believe that Bush et al are bent on world domination. If they are, they are going about it all wrong. As for the UN, it's a joke and has make itself so by it's total inability to accomplish anything in the last 12 years with regard to Iraq and Saddam Husseins flouting of it's resolutions or most of the worlds ignoring of it's sanctions. It wouldn't go into Rwanda (Clinton didn't want to) or Kosovo. Fortunately, Clinton grew some backbone and we went in under the auspices of NATO and stopped the slaughter. BTW, I didn't notice much protest when that happened. The UNSC has proven itself irrelevant time after time. The US is the only country that has EVERsought UN approval for a war. Out of the 27 international conflicts since its founding in 1945, Only the US has asked -and been granted- "permission" by the UNSC. Korea, Gulf War I, and Afghanistan. The rest of the time, It has been ignored. And it has done nothing! So don't preach the glorious UN to me. I see it for what it is; a failure. Getting back to the peace question, you don't achieve peace by letting bullies like Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong-Il, Assad, or any dictator have free rein and you don't stop their depredations by dipolmacy. Those prople don't bargain unless they have no other choice and then they will promise anything (a'la Saddam Hussein in '91) to gain breathing room. You'd think people would learn that you can't bargain with people like Saddam Hussein or Hitler. But no, they keep right on trying, sticking their chin out and getting it knocked off. troll |
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12 Apr 03 - 04:25 AM (#931636) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: GUEST Goodonya troll, right to the point. |
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12 Apr 03 - 11:43 AM (#931792) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall I get so sick of people laying ALL the blame on the Arabs. They hate us for damn good reason, and, we made it happen. That is what the conservatives can't face. regarding the WMD, Scott Ritter, card carrying republican, former weapons inspector, said on national TV that the USA is on a wild goose chase, that there are NO wmd's there. I firmly believe that Bush will have his WMD, and,if they are not found, he will have them created to justifiy his illegal war. He has already declared that no other country will be allowed to test what they find. Remember Johnson and his "Gulf of Tonkin" resolution? Total fabrication. Remember Watergate? Iran-Contra? Arms for hostages? Tell me why I should believe one word that comes out of my government. I'm glad as hell that Saddam is gone, but, the cost will be on our shoulders for generations to come. It has already started; did you see the news clip where the looters were even cleaning out hospitals? Patients out on the street in their hospital gowns screeming "This is your fault Bush"!! It's only the beginning. The money is worthless, the infrastructure is totally ruined and chaos rules. They will wish they had Saddam back; at least they ate under him. Look at the former soviet union; a mess! they would like to have the stability of communism back according to reports. As far as that statement that the Arabs respect power, true. After the revolutionary war, the Barbary Pirates looted our ships in the Mediteranian, and enslaved our Christian infidels. Great Britain used to protect us when we were a colony, but, when that umbrella was lifted, we were fair game.Tripoli declared war on us. Finally, Commodore Preble, a local boy, was sent over there to square them away. After reasoning with the enemy, using cannon balls, they saw the light, and Tripoli hasn't declared war on us since. Things are different now, they are capable of getting to us on our own soil with their own "cannon balls" And, it will happen. Anyone who thinks they are going to lay down, and say, "Oh well, screw us some more" is very much mistaken. |
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12 Apr 03 - 12:11 PM (#931812) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: DougR Kendall: I beg to differ with you one at least one point. Had I the time, I would take on other parts of your last post, but I don't at the moment. It has been widely reported on American TV that if any weapons of mass destruction are located, other nations will be involved in the testing. As dumb as you, and others, think Bush is, he isn't THAT dumb. I'm not certain France, Germany, or Russia will be among those doing the testing though. Vested interest, you know. DougR |
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12 Apr 03 - 12:55 PM (#931839) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Bobert Kendall: You have struck on something that has been little talked about even though you may not have intended to throw it into the mix: useless money! Yep, think about it. With the Euro coming on strong around the worls as the *rival currency* there have been some rumblings about Arab nations signing on to the Euro. Hmmmmmm? Well, that certainly won't happen now, will it? Iz beginning to sniff yet one more reason for Iraq being attacked other than the *stated* list of excuses. Bobert |
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12 Apr 03 - 01:12 PM (#931846) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Peg I was very distubred to read today that looters have ransacked the antiquities museum in Baghdad and billions of dollars worth of items, all of the irreplaceable and many of them thousands of years old, have been stolen. I am not sure why this upsets me more than the looting of hospitals, but somehow it does. Anyone else have thoughts on this? |
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12 Apr 03 - 01:23 PM (#931852) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: leprechaun The lack of funding for schools in Oregon is the fault of Oregonians. George W. Bush had nothing to do with it. The schools in Oregon are suffering because the voters in Oregon have repeatedly gutted the tax support for years. Unless you are a drug dealer or a Tofu/Soyfood commune, your business is not welcome in Oregon. You people are so full of hate. Take a good look at yourselfs. It's poisoning your soul. |
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12 Apr 03 - 01:49 PM (#931869) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: kendall Doug, Tom Brocaw stated in plain English that Bush made that statement. So, go ahead a villify the messenger. It makes sense to me that he needs to cover his ass. By the way, I'd love to have you address any other point I made. |
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12 Apr 03 - 01:52 PM (#931871) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Amos Leprechaun: I would suggest that there is a lot of hate involved in destroying people's bodies, homes and civic structures. A great deal more than venting on a forum thread -- even if it seems to involve collateral damage. At least the collateral damage is merely imprecise concepts rather than destroyed human beings. Much easier to straighten out. It is just possible that commiting acts of death is more poisonous to the soul than simply being upset about them. Peg: The ravaging of the antiuities is a serious and disturbing development, because it leads me to wonder how well the newly liberated people of Iraq will be able to manage building any kind of workable society of their own. We will have to see -- the generals seem to feel it is a blow-off from many decades of suppression, and will settle out. I can only hope they are right and that the people of Baghdad and Basra will outgrow their pent-up passions enough to build a cvivilization. I have no current idea what it feels like to live in a reign of oppression and terror, so I am not really in a position to pass judgement. A |
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12 Apr 03 - 01:54 PM (#931872) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Troll I agree Peg. This is not a good thing. So they now hate us all the more, Kendall. What would you have us do, crawl to them and beg their forgivness? When the British freed the Arab states from the Ottoman Empire, they broke many of the promises that they had made to the tribes through such men as Lawrence. But that's not the source of their hatred for the West. It goes all the way back to the Crusades and the decline of Islamic influence in the West. The US is simply the most visible target for that hatred now. We appeased Saddam Hussein for years with the UNSC passing toothless resolution after toothless resolution and then doing nothing when he did not comply. If that's not appeasment, you tell me what it is. If you think that the UN is the way, go for it. But kindly show me where the UN has stopped terrorism at any time or place. I can't think of a single one where the US did not take the lead from start to finish so why do we need the UN to give us permission to do ANYTHING. You claim to be glad that Saddam Hussein is gone and then go into a litany of complaint about how bad things are in Iraq right now. What do you expect it to be like? They just had a WAR for G-ds sake and there is a power vacuum there right now. The lawlessness will stop, order will be restored, and humanitarian aid will come in. But this all takes time. As I said before, this is NOT Mission Imposible where the whole problem is wrapped up in 53 minutes. If you can't handle this simple fact, I'd suggest that you stop watching the news and try the Gilligans Island re-runs. You'll only be frustrated otherwise. troll BTW, I worked with a group of Russians for six months in Tokyo. They were uniform in their condemnation of Communism. Yes, there was usually enough food but there was no freedom of expression. And they rated that freedom above all else. What a shame that this country seems hell-bent on giving away that and other freedoms for the chimera of security. troll |
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12 Apr 03 - 02:04 PM (#931883) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Amos What a shame that this country seems hell-bent on giving away that and other freedoms for the chimera of security. Troll, I couldn't agree with you more. The current effort by our vaunted representatives is to make The Patriot Act permanent so that our freedom of speech will be even more curtailed than it is. Time will tell what the outcome of pulling the plug on the Iraqi government will be. I wish there had been a better transition plan, but the ground truth is what it is and they are going to have organize themselves fast to replace the basic functions that have now been removed. A |
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12 Apr 03 - 02:09 PM (#931886) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: katlaughing Troll, I had a lengthy reply written to you, ready to post in the middle of the night when my computer locked up and I lost it. I don't have time to reconstruct it, at the moment, but will say these words are what made me think you were being racist: I frankly don't give two whoops in Hell if they hate us because they have hated us all along....It sounds very hateful, on your part, which I take to mean you are prejudice against people of Arab descent. I also thought it was very presumptive of you to say You just haven't seen it in relation to the Arab hatred for America. One other thing...you did not say why it is just to use our taxes to fix up healthcare, school, and the banking industries in Iraq, but not take care of our own. |
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12 Apr 03 - 08:46 PM (#932095) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Bobert Well, Lep, when ine looks an administration hell bent on world war against anyone for any reason, yeah, hate comes pretty easy to the majority of the world that sees lots of alternatives to blowing up you neighbors. This administration had downright *earned* the hate. Hey, I didn't particularilly like Bill Clinton or his administration but there were alot of folks who vilified him because he happened to beat their guy fair and square in an election. Big woop! The world is no safer now than at any time in my life and I blame the cuurent administartion for much of it. They sqaundered an excellent opportunity to take mankind a little further down the road toward being civilized... all in the name of profit for themselves and their corportae sponsors. Bobert |
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12 Apr 03 - 09:05 PM (#932104) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: leprechaun I remember all the obloquy heaped on Bill Clinton. All that vitriolic foaming at the mouth made those people look like whining, sniveling assholes too. |
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12 Apr 03 - 09:36 PM (#932119) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Bobert Danged, lep, we gotta quit this agreein' on stuff, dang it! Jus' funnin'. Thought you'd like to know that I got my crop in. Fir what, I don't know, since I hardly ever use the stuff anymore? But there's somethin' about growin' pot that's real fun. You oughtta try it! Bobert |
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13 Apr 03 - 12:51 AM (#932171) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Troll kat. Why is it racist to say that I don't care if they hate us now since they have always hated us? I have no predjudice against people of Arabic descent, I was simply stating fact. If you mean that I should care if they hate us because I would then try to do something about it because it's all our fault, sorry, but that dog won't hunt. The Arabic antipathy toward the West pre-dates thre founding of this country. It extends all the way back to the Crusades and to the decline of the Islamic culture as a force to be reckoned with in the West. If you want a date, try 1492, the year of the Reconquista when the Moors were expelled from Spain. The present day hatred stems partially from our support of the State of Israel but mostly from the fact that we are the biggest and baddest right now and so make the best target. It isn't just us that they hate, it's the whole of Western Civilization. As I stated before, just because I tell the truth doesn't make me a racist. It simply makes me realistic. They aren't going to love us no matter what we do but they will now respect the fact that we will do what we say. After Somalia, everyone figured that the US didn't have the guts to stay the course in a conflict. I believe they now know otherwise. Re: paying for the reconstruction of Iraqs schools, hospitals and business community, I think the idea is that we pay for it now and they pay us back when their country gets back on its feet. I can almost guarantee that the level of service will be nowhere near what people in this country deem inadequate. The schools will not be airconditioned day care centers like they are in this country, but institutes of learning. The hospitals will be nowhere near as advanced as the ones in this country but the level of care will be adequate. They won't getan MRI for a sprained ankle but it will be adequate. The same with the business community. If that isn't gotten going so the Iraqi economy can recover, we'll be supporting them for the rest of their and our lives. The reason health care is so expensive in this country is because of the level and type of care we as a nation have come to demand. There are hundreds of tests and most of them are not necessary; expensive drug therapies instead of simple surgery. The list is endless. And our education system is a joke. I was talking to Skeptic about it this mornung and he told me of a study that had just been completed that tested the reading levels of recent high-cshool graduates. They read -on average- at a level of 4.8. That's fourth grade, eighth month. That means that they can't even read a newspaper since they are aimed at an 8th grade reading level. The only thing that anyone can think to do is to throw more money at it problem. That approach hasn't worked for years, why should it work now. The very latest thing is to make the teachers accountable. All that's going to do is drive the competent teachers out of the profession because they know that no one can teach in an environment where the kids don't care and the parents cna't be bothered to be involved. Do you want to know why private schools are so successful and post such high test scores? Because they attract the best teachers with high salaries? Because they take only the brightest kids? Nope. It's because they demand that the parents be actively involved with their childs education. The few public schools that have good parental involvment post good test scores as well. But it's easier to throw money at the problem. The problem that we have with health care, education and welfare lies in the expectations that we have of what they are supposed to give us, as if we have no responsibility for anything ourselves. If something is wrong, the Government is supposed to fix it for us. If we have a weight problem that makes us prone to heart trouble, have another beer, the Government will take care of everything. Is Johnny spending more time playing video games than doing homework? Call the school and complain about the amount of homework he has. G-d forbid we should make him actually DO his homework. We might miss "Friends". The money that we spend rebuilding Iraq we'll get back. The money that we spend on schools and social programs will be as wasted as if we had burned it. Because money is not the answer to most of our problems and no one wants to admit it. troll |
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13 Apr 03 - 01:06 AM (#932178) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: katlaughing I had already decided I needed to come back in here and post an apology to you, troll, for calling you a racist. I know that you are not and I am sorry for saying so. Thanks for your understanding. As to schools being air conditioned..I don't know where you've been in school lately, but there aren't any out West that I know of, where my sisters teach nor where my kids went to school, not even the colleges, which I've also attended in recent years. And, regarding health care in this country. We may have more tests, etc. but there are a lot of us who do NOT have access to them, no matter what. We cannot afford the high premiums, but we make too much for any subsidies, so we try, as much as possible, to stay healthy and hope we don't lose the house, etc. with something catastrophic. It doesn't do to compare anyway...those who went before us and our own generations have worked hard to raise the standard of living in this country and it wouldn't do any other country any good if we suddenly gave up the advances we do have. Like it or not, we need universal health care in this country. And, with that, I'd like to say I am going to do my damnedest to stay out of any political threads from now on. Thanks ya'll...it's been interesting. kat |
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13 Apr 03 - 01:06 AM (#932179) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Stilly River Sage Three words: Wag The DogBush has enriched himself and his friends beyond Reagan's wildest dreams (when he deregulated the Savings and Loans that his buddies looted). The war is an untidy distraction while he slips lots of devisive legislation through. When the air clears, the U.S. will never be the same. |
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13 Apr 03 - 01:30 AM (#932193) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Troll kat, I went to school in the South, mostly and we never had airconditioning. Usually it was just a fan to keep the air moving. In the winter, heat was provided by a coal fired stove. I didn't go to a school with central heat until seventh grade. When I finally completed my college degrees, half of the buildings in which I had classes were not air conditioned. We're talking Florida here. My wife has been a teacher in Fla. schools for 26 years and I can assure you that the philosophy is now that kids can't learn in an un-air conditioned environment. Of course, with the schools now designed with small, un-openable windows, the rooms are uninhabitable if the air handling goes out. But they keep building 'em that way. My wife went to school in West Palm Beach and her high school wasn't airconditioned until after she had graduated ('60). How did she learn? How did I learn? I am fully aware that there are those in this country who do not have access to health care because they cannot afford it. Throwing money at the problem isn't going to solve the problem, it's only going to prolong it. I don't like the idea of the Government providing the health care. I don't trust the Government to do a good job of it. I see it as just one more expensive beauracracy that causes more problems than it solves, with half the country paying through the nose for the other half. troll |
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13 Apr 03 - 01:31 AM (#932194) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Peg Oh, did anyone see today that the House has voted to approve the plan to drill for oil in Alaska? |
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13 Apr 03 - 01:37 AM (#932197) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: DougR Or perhaps one might say, "Dog the Wag!" Kendall, I'm off on vacation for a week so I can't address your statements until I get back. Sorry, Charlie Noble, Greg F., but you won't have me to kick around for awhile. Oh well. I'm sure troll, Teribus, Lep, Gareth, Beccy and a few others can keep all of you liberals in line while I'm gone. (Sorry if I left anyone out) :>) DougR |
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13 Apr 03 - 08:59 AM (#932316) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Greg F. you won't have me to kick around for awhile Do you own a dog named Checkers? |
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13 Apr 03 - 09:39 AM (#932334) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: DougR Nope, Greggie, but I do have one named Emma and one named Penny! Ta taa! DougR |
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13 Apr 03 - 09:41 AM (#932337) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Greg F. Jesus, Troll, please not the old throwing money at the problem rubric. There's no more worn-out, hackneyed, idiotic and completely meaningless phrase in the right-wing lexicon. What, precisely, can be done AT NO COST? Wingers don't seem to have any problem with, for example, "throwing money at" corporations and rich folks thru regressive taxation, "throwing money at" the War on Drugs[sic] which we had lost before it began, "throwing money at "defense contractors to build Trent Lott's personal battleship, "throwing money at" the Pentagon or "throwing money at" "faith-based initiatives, "throwing money at" Israel. Where's the 'accountability' for any of this squandering of tax dollars? Any of these costs far exceed what is spent on ALL education in the U.S. Since you've singled out air-conditioned schools to bash, have you seen any office building/apartment building/congressional building etc. in the U.S. put up since 1965 that isn't air-conditioned with non-functional windows? Guess business can't be conducted without AC either, huh? Apparently in your version of history there's no long standing and deep seated "Western antipathy for the Arabs"- them pesky Crusades, for instance? Best, Greg |
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13 Apr 03 - 12:53 PM (#932434) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: Forum Lurker Troll-There is another reason why private schools do better than public schools: they can turn away students if they choose to. This does not mean that they only accept the smartest students, but that the obligation to make the child care about school is placed on the part of the parents, not the teachers. It is very difficult to make some students care about school, and private schools don't need to deal with that problem. Public schools do, which results in a great deal of effort expended that teaching staff can't afford. Also, I believe that most private schools have a much lower student-teacher ratio than public schools. which has been proven to substantially affect learning. "Throwing money at" the schools isn't a solution, but it is necessary to make sure that students can get the attention they need, and some kind of motivator to succeed in school. I can't think of an easy way to do that, and if you can, I'd love to hear it. |
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13 Apr 03 - 08:50 PM (#932722) Subject: RE: BS: The real George Bush From: leprechaun I was on vacation for a week and a half and nobody here noticed. Bobert - If I were to grow a similar crop I would use cloned plants to make sure I get good genetics and all females. Then I would start them out hydroponically with a rooting compound. Once they got going I would transplant them to bat guano-enriched potting soil and keep them under 1000 watt grow lamps on a timer to simulate day and night, suspended from a little motor on a track screwed to the ceiling to simulate the movement of the sun, all enclosed in an underground bunker. I would have fans blowing on the plants, and a squirrel cage fan in the wall connected to ducting to transfer the moisture and odor away from my house and away from the street. I would use a drip system with underwater pumps to fertilize and water the plants, and a series of ballast boxes to augment the power to my grow lamps. I'd rent the house from out of state landlords, using somebody else's name, and I'd get somebody else to subscribe to the electric company. I'd have two vicious pitbulls living in the house and train them to go apeshit if anybody approaches. I'd buy all my fertilizers, soil emoluments, bamboo stakes, planter pots, starter trays, hoses, pump sprayers, and organic insecticides at slightly inflated prices at the little organic garden store run by the nice hippies who would never think to call the cops on me, or any of the other sixty percent of their customers who are horticulturists of similar bent, if you know what I mean. But even if I were clever enough to do all that, I would still be dumb enough to smoke the shit, so I would have to have all my Bob Marley posters, and my "It's 4:20, Do you know where your bong is?" bumper stickers on my brand new Toyota Four Runner, and my baseball cap with the marijuana leaf on it, and just to be a snot, I'd have a Dare sticker on my back window, and I would constantly be talking on my three hundred dollar micro-mini cell phone. Then when I got busted I'd chastise the cops for profiling me. |