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13 Apr 03 - 02:09 PM (#932470) Subject: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST,diggy-lo Circumstances still keep me an infrequent visitor to Mudcat, but I want to say that I think the site administraters have done a fine job. I like the separation of music and non-music. Thanks people. I wasn't going to discuss this publicly but I saw the thread about 'comin' in on a wing and a prayer' and it reminded me of an issue that's been unresolved for several weeks in one of the song circles I attend. Like many of the folks who participate in urban song circles I'm Jewish. Probably half the group is. Many of us have grown up singing Gospel songs, although our sources are more likely to have been Pete Seeger and The Weavers, rather than Protestant Hymn Books. Much of the protest music that fuelled the integration and Peace movements were based on Traditional Christian music. I've never had any trouble with the music, but in truth the message is hardly a part of my life. A couple of months ago a nice young woman came to the song circle and sang a couple of what I later found out were 'Praise' songs. The songs had choruses, which is what we ask folks to sing so that everyone can join in, so there shouldn't have been a problem. This woman then invited a friend of hers to join us for the next circle, and once again the 'praise' songs were the only things either of them sang. I won't go into great detail but since then it's become obvious that every conversation with either of them is steered in an evangelical direction. The introductions to the songs are also starting to sound a bit patronizing. It's quite a funny problem when you get right down to it, and the irony is not lost on those of us who've discussed it. Songs about religion are ok when they're not taken seriously, but the contemporary kind of 'Christian' music really does conjure up some very ugly realities to people who've spent large parts of their lives fighting for women's rights and against the kind of 'Bush Mentality' that has become almost acceptable today. I know that these people have their agenda and I and many of my musical friends have ours, but the problem is what to do in the song circle. I'ts not comfortable and it shows a lot of signs of getting worse. I suspect someone is really going to lose it one evening and things will become ugly. After writing this out it seems to me that there really is no 'solution' that will satisfy everyone, but it helps a bit to see it in print. Has anyone else dealt with these differences among people? bev |
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13 Apr 03 - 02:35 PM (#932493) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: mg if they try to impose their religion on you in the song circle, say we have many religious faiths and lack thereof here, so we try not to get into religious discussion in the song circle. In fact, the more talk that goes on in song circles, the worse the flow of music is, it seems to me anyway. Now, at the refreshment table or privately, just say you have your own religion and change the subject. Maybe tell them some of the old traditional numbers you like to hear. |
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13 Apr 03 - 02:39 PM (#932496) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: SINSULL How big a circle? How many songs do they get to sing? Who is "in charge"? If they offer 4 out of 25 songs in a night, I would grin and bear it or speak privately with them questioning their agenda in a VERY friendly way. They don't seem to be breaking any rules. If the intros are becoming a problem and/or are downright offensive to some, I would have the moderater have a friendly word with them suggesting that they do not need to offer introductions. The music is self explanatory. It is entirely possible that they love the music so much that they are unaware that they are offending some. It would be a shame if it got ugly and anyone "lost it" over music. Another ploy: suggest a theme night. Murder ballads, fallen women, Bobby Burns night, etc. Help them develop some variety. |
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13 Apr 03 - 02:40 PM (#932498) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg My computer is not a happy camper, or I would find you the fairly recent discussion thread about this where folks shared a spectrum of opinions and, as I recall, suggestions for handling the issue. Maybe someone can find it and link it here? ~Susan |
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13 Apr 03 - 02:49 PM (#932502) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Giac Is this it, your WHYSzness? Religion and Politics |
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13 Apr 03 - 03:46 PM (#932537) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Nigel Parsons I might be tempted to respond in kind! My first response would be a song by an English parodist and 'Filker' Zander Nyrond (a.k.a. Jonathon Waite) who's "Backward Christian Soldiers" can be found Here I will merely quote the first verse, although the 'Filk Blanket Permission List' makes it clear that it can be posted here. ("The following folks have given blanket permission to post their songs, so long as proper credit and copyright information are kept with the song, and it is not published or recorded for sale without specific permission from the writer. ") BACKWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS Zander Nyrond (Tune: fairly obvious really, no?) Backward, Christian soldiers, Backward from my door. Take your sales pitch elsewhere, Trouble me no more. Christ and Hare Krishna, Also Joseph Smith-- These are merely archetypes From the realm of myth. CHORUS Backward, Christian soldiers, Backward from my door. Take your sales pitch elsewhere, Trouble me no more. Nigel |
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13 Apr 03 - 04:15 PM (#932555) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg Ezzackly, Ms. G! Nigel, I may have to borry that one myself! :~) ~S~ |
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13 Apr 03 - 04:18 PM (#932558) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Nigel Parsons Wysi: Careful, if you follow the links to get to Zander's song page, people have been known to get lost for days! Fortunately I've got the paper version, so I know I can put it down and it'll still be there to come back to! Nigel |
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13 Apr 03 - 04:23 PM (#932562) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg Sometimes, people think just cuz I am a Christian I think this kind of proselytizing is OK-- I do NOT-- and that song just about says all there is to say about the issue! :~) ~Susan |
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13 Apr 03 - 04:55 PM (#932576) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: McGrath of Harlow Maybe a crucial thing is whether the songs are any good as songs. The term "praise songs" seems a pretty fair guarantee in my experience that they aren't. I don't know why that is so. There are superb songs in all religious traditions, and some pretty good modern songs with religious content, and not just those Sydney Carter wrote - but they seem to get drowned by a flood of insipid and glutinous material. Praise? Songs to Mortify the Ear and Spirit. |
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13 Apr 03 - 04:56 PM (#932577) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Mudlark I don't think songs of worship belong in song circles, for the very reason you are having a problem. I see nothing wrong in kindly telling the whole group (so the offenders don't feel too singled out) that there is a policy, no religious songs, the group being secular and/or multi-faithed. Furthermore, altho I am not religious myself, I have respect for the faiths of others, and it seems disrespectful to me to sing religious songs as just part of a sing-along, without commitment or belief. . |
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13 Apr 03 - 05:49 PM (#932619) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST,Russ In a previous life I taught world religions. I learned many lessons the hard way (but have forgotten most of them by now). Some things I do remember learning 1) there should be ground rules 2) those ground rules should presented as clearly as possible as early as possible. Thus my syllabi were passed out on day 1 and contained something like the following: "Please feel free to share your own experiences as a participant in a religious tradition. However, please do NOT witness for your faith. This class is NOT an appropriate place to proselytize for your faith. It also NOT an appropriate place to criticize faiths other than your own." Having passed out the syllabus, I then read this particular passage aloud. Seemed to work. |
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13 Apr 03 - 07:41 PM (#932684) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: toadfrog Russ: Well said! I was thinking of making a suggestion, but yours is so much better I think I'll stow it! |
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13 Apr 03 - 07:57 PM (#932696) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Nigel Parsons Mudlark: Whilst I may agree that religious songs have no real meaning if taken 'out of context', I am aware of a situation where they have meaning although they may not be recognised for what they are, or even understood. When the Welsh rugby team play (not something they've been doing well recently) the 'home' crowd will provide tremendous support, and this includes the use of Welsh hymns. The players, and the singers, may not understand Welsh, but the fervour created by a good rendition of 'Cwm Rhondda', or 'Calon Lan', or 'I bob un sydd ffyddlon'(tune 'Rachie') is worth points on the scoreboard to the Welsh team. The only explanation is probably down to 'Hwyl', (a term for a feeling/experience engendered by a sense of 'Welshness' which does not translate well to English). The above comment may seem to ramble, but it may also strike a chord with some. Nigel |
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13 Apr 03 - 10:03 PM (#932758) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Rick Fielding Diggy, I'm not sure if this is as serious a problem as you may think at this time. I LOVE Gospel music....sing tons of it, but I have no belief whatsoever in a "human type" diety. I don't know what's out there, and would never trust another human being to TELL me that THEY have the answer. Doesn't stop me from really enjoying the music. If I find myself the minority in a crowd of 'believers', I just shut up and go with the flow. Why on earth would I want to push my agnosticism on anyone else? I'd be in that group SOLELY for the music....and that's good enough. I believe strongly in a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy (with NO male input, if that's the way she wants it) but I'd be simply trying to cause havoc if I stated that belief in a Gospel Music gathering......if I was in the minority. Nobody's gonna convert nobody in this day and age, unless the potential "convertee" is damn good and ready. Reminds me a bit of guys who freak when they think they've been propositioned by another guy. In both cases what's wrong with just saying "Not today thanks". (Quentin Crisp's line) Why not just ask the gals if they're enjoyin' themselves, and that you hope the "Feminist, political, whatever " belief of the group will get easier for them to deal with 'cuz you appreciate they're comin' from a different space. but ask 'em DURING the song circle...kind of brings everything out in the open. OK, maybe I'm being a pollyanna, but just PERHAPS they're there to have fun. You could always teach 'em to sing a "Feron" song....hell they might convert, ha ha! ************************************************************** Now you wanna know what a REAL song circle problem is? The Jerk who wants to play along with everyone, but has NO CHORD SENSE AT ALL! Try gettin' rid of THAT person without bein' rude. Cheers Rick |
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13 Apr 03 - 10:09 PM (#932762) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Rick Fielding I should also have mentioned that Traditional Bluegras IS practically a religion to me, and I've been fortunate to have met and done some picking with many of it's pioneers (I'm talkin' about the guys who started playing in the thiryies and forties). If most of them knew what my political beliefs really were they'd have lynched me! The music came first! Cheers Rick |
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13 Apr 03 - 10:23 PM (#932770) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: khandu No, the best way to handle it is this; whenever they start singing their "praise" song, sing along. When they come to the name "Jesus", loudly sing "Moloch" and when you sing it, it would help to maybe slobber and jerk a bit. Then when the song is over, start a "Moloch" cheer..."Gimme an 'M'...gimme an..." (Of course, have the rest of the gathering prepared beforehand to enthusiastically join in!) Do the cheer intermittently throughout the rest of the evening. This should solve the problem. k |
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13 Apr 03 - 10:39 PM (#932775) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: artbrooks Follow their contribution with Tzena, Bashana Haba'a, or, best of all Dayenu! |
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14 Apr 03 - 12:55 AM (#932838) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Joe Offer Well, I don't know if I'd try the "Moloch" bit, but maybe a nice, sweet song like "Who Were the witches"?? I'm a Catholic. I love gospel songs, but they're not part of my religious tradition, and I don't sing them in church. Therefore, I don't hesitate to sing them in a song circle. I'll sing a Catholic song to a mixed group if requested, but I'd prefer to sing songs that are more inclusive. So, if I do get stuck singing a Catholic song, I'll follow with something inclusive. -Joe Offer- |
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14 Apr 03 - 09:09 AM (#933056) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Jeri Although it's amusing to come up with creative ways to do the passive-aggressive thing, I don't think getting even ever works, especially when the person you're getting even with has no idea you're even annoyed in the first place. They don't seem good at figuring out folks might have a problem, or they don't care. The most grown-up thing to do would be to tell them that you don't like being preached at, but it's confrontation, even if it's gentle, and might spark a defensive reaction even if done very tactfully. Perhaps they'd be better off hearing it said by someone calm and caring before someone blows up at them. Otherwise, I'd just let 'em take their turn. They're singing what they enjoy singing, not what they think folks will enjoy hearing. Maybe you could 'feed' them some nice trad gospel and ignore their agenda? There ought to be some song somewhere that expresses what you want to say gently, without serving as a musical sledge hammer. Here's a not-so-subtle reply to 'em: Dick Gaughan's 'Son of Man'. Rick, I hear you, but these two women are on the dangly side of the lynching party. |
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14 Apr 03 - 09:43 AM (#933079) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Tweed kingKhandu's Moloch idea is a good one but I'd take it one step beyond, as some of these witnessers are a bit thick skinned and unable to take strong hints. Therefore, for best results I would think strongly about keeping a gunny sack full of rattlesnakes and when the praising and witnessing starts up, pull out a couple diamondbacks and shout as loud as you can,"TAKE UP THE SERPENT!!", while the rest of the group dances around the offenders flogging the person in front of them. I have used this method myself on numerous occasions with excellent results. Yerz, Tweed |
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14 Apr 03 - 06:13 PM (#933454) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: McGrath of Harlow Can't say this is a problem that has ever reared its head in my experience. The nearest I can recall, is when a well intentioned minister tried to insist that the fact that someone had been singing a hymn with such power and evident conviction had to mean that, deep inside, she was a believer, and she objected most strongly. Mind, that was a good song. It's not something that would arise with the kind of "Praise Song" that I think is envisaged here. But I don't believe in the idea that just because a religious song isn't "inclusive" it oughtn't to be sung outside the particular religious tradition from which it comes. I value the chance to hear songs from other traditions. The crucial thing is they should be good songs, and they shouldn't be sectarian in the sense of being disrespectful of others. |
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14 Apr 03 - 08:16 PM (#933548) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wilco I'm not a religious person, but I respect everyone's religious perspective. In the Southeast USA this is a REAL BIG PROBLEM, with endless proselitizing by protestant fundamentalists. Periodically, it needs to be stated somehow that "This is not an appropriate setting to bring in personal politics, religions, private personal problems, etc; this isn't a religious or political meeting or therapy." My experience has been that, when they find that they are not "reeling 'em in" (conversions), they will find a more promising setting. |
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14 Apr 03 - 10:59 PM (#933629) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: NicoleC I agree with Jeri -- as fun as it is to think of comebacks, the truth is that many Christians hold as a tenant of their faith that everyone else is absolutely wrong. They aren't alone in this belief among religions, but there is a strong tradition of prostelitizing in the US, and any attempt to give them a come-uppance is likely to backfire when they decide you need to be "saved" even more. Quite frankly, they may not be able to consider behaving any other way if they feel it's their God-given duty to "spread the Word." They might, however, be ammenable to learning, and that would be a boon to all of us faced with prostelitizing Christians who act like used car salesmen with a lemon to get off the lot. I don't know how preachy their introductions are getting. They might just be singing the songs they like and be totally unaware of what everyone else seems to consider in appropriate behavior. If the songs are inappropriate to the session (for example, modern Christian music on a folk session) they can be asked to pick songs which suit the session. If they Dug up some old spirituals, it might be more comfortable for everyone else. Since religious music is a part of traditional music, I suggest the moderator tell them they can choose whichever songs they like, however they need to limit their introductions to music and not religion. Or maybe those of you who don't feel comfortable singing along with the choruses should simply not join in. It might get lonely up there... and they will certainly get the point. If they don't take the point and loosen up, the group can consider options from there. But meanwhile, I think you give them the chance to be courteous -- especially if they are unaware that's what they are doing? |
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15 Apr 03 - 12:17 AM (#933660) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST,Les B. Well, thank Moloch, I've had somewhat the opposite experience. One of the regulars at our weekly acoustic, bluegrass-oriented, song circle invited us all to come to his church's new coffee house. I was reluctant to attend, expecting to be proselytized strongly, but as this guy is a real fine person I decided to try it just once. We got there and it was a real mixed bag - an electric guitar, an electric bass, a guy with a drum kit, a mentally disadvantaged fellow on a flutophone, a former folkie with an Ovation guitar, an older guy with a real fine old Gibson flattop - who never played a note all evening, and a woman music teacher with a nylon stringed guitar who "didn't know what bluegrass was." Turns out they just wanted to jam, and other than a couple of hymns, and once in a while a "praise the lord," there was no direct pressure or sermons. The electric guitar player was a real gem, he had played in country bands for a couple of decades until the drink got to him and he was subsequently "saved". He knew some of the older fiddle players I know when they were young and in their prime, and did he have some tasty licks on the guitar ! I've gone back several times and there's never been any pressure. It's just a chance for them to socialize, and they needed some people from our group who know a good number of songs without dragging out the paper. If they get a little too heavy on the religious songs, I try to sing something like "Reckless Cowboy" or "Wild Bill Jones" ("Pass around them long necked bottles!")so that there's equal time given to the profane! It's been real fun, their lattes are excellent, and the space is to die for - roomy, well lit, and plenty of chairs. |
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15 Apr 03 - 06:01 AM (#933783) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Hrothgar We have a good hymn singing session at the National Folk Festival in Canberra every year - but fortunately nobody brings religion (or should I say sectarianism?) into it. |
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15 Apr 03 - 06:07 AM (#933786) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Rick Fielding Wilco said: "This is not an appropriate setting to bring in personal politics, religions, private personal problems, etc; this isn't a religious or political meeting, or therapy" I'm pretty familiar with the nature of the song circles that Diggy talks about, and they actually ARE pretty political, simply because of the preponderance of activists who attend. I think that the problem (if there IS one) is that for many folks....Political activism IS their life's work. They're out marching on picket lines, they're the ones who contemplate going to Iraq to be human shields, or at least write letters to the White House!! They're at abortion clinics, rallies, support same-sex marriages....well hell, you know what I'm talking about....AND they go regularly to Song circles in the big cities. I'm not sure WHY someone who lives a completely different set of values would WANT to attend that kind of gathering.....but apparently they do (on occasion, I guess). After re-reading the original post, I think I WAS being a bit of a Pollyanna in my other post. This may have to be sorted out in private. I'm always trying to make omelettes without breaking any eggs....sometimes you just can't...the eggs get broke and the feelings get hurt. Cheers Rick |
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15 Apr 03 - 07:01 AM (#933813) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: greg stephens This is a very interesting and seemingly insoluble problem. We have seen here the problem of people bringing in their "praise songs" and causing unpleasnatness with feelings that they are trying to dominate the group. I have recent experience of the opposite problem(not my own expereince, it's a women's group a friend helps organise). My pal Kate took in "I bid you goodnight" as a suitable song to have a bash at, great song, fun to sing, quite an anthem in English folk ciclezzs( Incredible String band, Joseph Spense, Carthy/Waterson etc etc). So everybody's blasting away at the song, but one person complains. Because, horror of horrors, there's a line in the song "I love you but Jesus loves you best". What do you do? Drop the song, because it's causing tension? But why should you, if one person doesnt like it and the other 19 do. And it's not the only religious song in the groups repertoire, but the otheres are all in Serbo Croat or Shona or whatever so nobody really understands them. What do you do? You cant ask the person to leave if they dont like it, she may be a stalwart of the group and a friend. How do consensus/democratic groups of people cope with individuals who try to impose their will like this? An age-old problem. |
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15 Apr 03 - 07:39 AM (#933833) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST,Green Man I am religious, I am a heathen we sing about life and beer and then of course there's drinking beer... I also like singing anything with harmonies. I go for the music, I go for the friends I have made and the elation I feel when those high harmonies come out right. I don't mistake that for any kind of religious experience. Whew! |
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15 Apr 03 - 01:37 PM (#934058) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST Any thoughts about (American) Gospel music? Both the black and white varieties are certainly legimate parts of the folk-music tradition, and indeed many of our oldest and most familiar Gospel tunes, despite their explicitly religious content, have become pretty much "mainstream," e.g., "Down By the Riverside," "Will the Circle Be Unbroken," etc. As a semi-agnostic ex-Catholic* (see PS below), I would also be extremely uncomfortable in the situation described in diggy-lo's initial post. That's assuming, of course, that my understanding of the category "praise songs" is correct, and that what we're talking about here is insipid musical pablum delivered as an obnoxious holier-than-thou sales pitch. Music that simply expresses spiritual feelings of inspiration, even ecstacy, is always enjoyable -- even to those of us who might harbor a bit of skepticism regarding the lyrical content. Here's a suggestion from a completely different angle than I've read so far, from the "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" school of thought. Rather than offer praise to Moloch or Satan or whomever (which is a *funny* idea, I agree, but not a course of action I would choose), why not offer a tune that is ostensibly Christian or spiritual, but more appropriate (musically *and* aesthetically) to the overall group sensibility. Like "Twelve Gates to the City," "His Eye is on the Sparrow," "Turn the Radio On," or one of the old chestnuts mentioned above. If you *really* want to make some waves, let me suggest searching out and learning my favorite vocal perfomance of all time, "The Hem of His Garment" as sung by Sam Cooke and the Soul Stirrers! *PS: Any of you Catholics, ex- and otherwise, share my disdain for the dumbed-down psuedo-folk "guitar Mass" music introduced in the late '60s? I was (and still am) in favor of most of the *other* modernization that came with John XXII and Vatican II, and as a guitar-toting folkie I thought I would have and should have supported the musical changes, but I think Catholic liturgical music took a decided downturn when Latin choral music was replaced by imitation-Protestant devotionoal ditties. |
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15 Apr 03 - 02:04 PM (#934069) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg Gospel: we lead a weekly acoustic service that blows the roof off on a regular basis. (Little or no praise music.) Oldtime, black, southern, blues, bluegrass, revival gospel, and old denominational hymns done upbeat. It's spreading now to the other area churches as our band sprouts off new starters.... We're Episcopal. The contrast between the music and the liturgy/sacraments is part of why it works. Having a banjo slung up the back of the priest, over his alb, while he fiddles,doesn't hurt either. :~) ~Susan |
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15 Apr 03 - 02:48 PM (#934100) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Ebbie greg stephens, are we thinking of the same song?? I love that song- but I never considered it as a song for the song circle. It has such a reverent, moving approach that I would suspect that eventually a parody would form from the 'other' side. And it would probably lend itself very well to parody! I have sung it only at a dying person's bedside. Here are the first two verses- can't think of the third one at the moment. Hardly rousing. "Sleep on, beloved, sleep and take your rest Lay down your head upon the Savior's breast I love you well but Jesus loves you best Good night, good night, good night Oh, I bid you good night, good night, good night Calm is your slumber as an infant sleeps But you shall wake no more to toil and weep Thine is a perfect rest, secure and deep Good night, good night, good night Oh, I bid you good night, good night, good night" |
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15 Apr 03 - 03:20 PM (#934122) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST,Tom Henehan The Grateful Dead often closed their shows with "I Bid You Goodnight" -- hardly a traditionally religious group, albeit promoters of / participants in a certain school of spirituality. The sudden change of pace usually served to bring a nice sense of closure to a very long evening. When I first heard the Dead perform this tune (1969-70-ish), I recognized the tune from *some* earlier folk-revival-era recording -- probably the Incredible String Band. I only know the one verse that the Dead used, very similar to what Ebbie just submitted. However, differences in the meter might mean that we're discussing two entirely different tunes with similar lyrics -- who knows? Won't you lay down children / Lay down and take your rest Lay your head / Upon your Savior's breast 'Cuz I love you, but Jesus loves you the best And I bid you good night, good night, good night. (repeat until satisfied) By the way -- how is it that some guest submissions are labelled "GUEST [name]" and others just "GUEST"? |
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15 Apr 03 - 03:37 PM (#934138) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg Tom, if the person who is posting doesn't type in some name or nickname in the optional "from" box, they just show as a Guest. ~Susan |
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15 Apr 03 - 03:58 PM (#934148) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST,Tom Henehan Hey Susan, I typed my name in the "From" box twice earlier today (at least I'm pretty sure), both times in this thread, and came up as "GUEST"-only the first time, and Guest-with-my-name the second time. We'll see what happens this third time. Why don't I join? I stumble across Mudcat about once or twice a year, spend a couple of days lurking and sticking in my two-cents-worth here and there, and disapear again. (I like the figurative "sound" of my own rhetorical voice almost as much as the actual sound of my singing voice.) Right now, I'm having an easy week at work (the boss is away and the mice will play), but next week I'll be gone again for a while. My on-and-off participation is pretty much a matter of nostalgia. I spent several years in my early 20s persuing music full-time but eventually drifted away. I'm still an enthusiastic listener and unabashed audience-singer, but by now I have such bad arthritis in my fingers that I'll never again play my beloved old D-18 with the same intensity and dedication. Also, my primary musical interest was once centered on Delta-type country blues and has developed in the direction of gospel, jazz, and especially the classic r&b of my adopted hometown, New Orleans. Such a blues-centric orientation seems to be less and less the focus of this group, which may once have been the down-home African-influenced American tradition but seems now to be more interested in the British-Isles, Childe-ballad side of the folk music spectrum. Nice enough, certainly, but not my cup of firewater. |
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15 Apr 03 - 04:05 PM (#934158) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: MMario there is the occasional glitch...*grin* |
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15 Apr 03 - 04:29 PM (#934172) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg Hey Tom, check out the African American Spirituals Permathread. Stuff you like is alive and well. BTW, a friend with MS has had to make some adjustments but still plays. Never doubt there is a need in this world for whatever kind of music you can make, support, or encourage. Love to jam with you sometime. Hey, if you join people can send you PMs and the messages can sit there waiting for your return. Long conversations can be a lot of fun. ~Susan |
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15 Apr 03 - 05:23 PM (#934213) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: greg stephens Ebbie Joseph Spense's bahama version of "I bid you goodnight" is actually rousing..and has led to innumerable versions since as mentioned above.But it is,as you say, Spense's/Grateful dead etc's take on the Sankey hymn(words Sarah Doudney or Poudney, my memory's failing) "The Christian's Goodnight". Slow and mournful, rocking and joyful(depends how you view funerals)...both ways eminently suitable for a choir/sing around/pub session/final number at a concert. But if one member of the group whines, what do you do??? |
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15 Apr 03 - 06:27 PM (#934271) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST,ClaireBear I'm the first to admit I haven't thought this through thoroughly, but -- non-confrontational sort that I am, what I do is this: When I don't like the song (or can't bear to be associated with the poor quality of the performance -- like when the singer can't keep to a pitch or a rhythm, which happens more often in the singalong event I go to), I simply don't sing along. If it's REALLY unbearable, I leave the room until it's over. The thing is, at some level I feel that singers at a public singalong DO have the right to perform whatever and however they want, as long as it's within the stated rules of the singalong -- and if their material or their quality is something that I don't approve of, I accept that it's to some extent MY problem. Now I know that clamming up isn't a universally effective solution: There are some people so clueless that even if nobody ever sang along with them -- or even if everybody routinely left the room when they started up -- they'd keep right on going. But the keep-my-mouth-shut solution might work in a majority of cases, I think, if a vast majority of the audience joined me in the conspiracy of silence. |
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15 Apr 03 - 06:41 PM (#934288) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: McGrath of Harlow What to do? That depends on all kinds of factors. As with any situation where some friend reveals that they are in fact some kind of bigot. Because objecting to that line in that context is bigotry. Long introductions to songs aren't a good idea, whether they are political or religious. Let the song carry the message, if there's a message. And I'm with you all the way on the cultural vandalism in Catholic Masses, GUEST (Tom?). Latin I can do without (though I really miss it when I'm at Mass in a non-English speaking country), but the timid slow strum and tambourine "folk masses"... |
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15 Apr 03 - 06:46 PM (#934291) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Ebbie I'd like to hear the rousing version of the song. Spence's 'bahama' version? Does that mean calypso? I'm sure it can be done successfully in various ways. I think the only live version I have heard was sung by Suzanne Thomas or maybe it was 'Brad, Tom and Alice', another group that has played here. Anyway, I do like it. |
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15 Apr 03 - 07:01 PM (#934308) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: greg stephens I am often ready with a glib answer to a problem, but here I am really at a loss.You get a nice group of people, and somebody becomes confrontational, about something which is not remotely confrontational to everybody else in the group. What do you do, without coming down to their level? And the other side of the coin, how do you react to the arrivals of the well-meant(??) "praise songs". You cant just say"bugger off they're crap". Sorry, this is not a helpful post, I'm just restating the problem. All problems must have solutions, but I cant see a glimmer of light. |
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15 Apr 03 - 07:25 PM (#934324) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg For someone who is the "leader" of the group invovled, it's a different question than it is for participants. For the leader, the simplest and cleanest approach is to speak privately and respectfully to the newcomers. SOmething along the lines of, "I have had a concern about some things that have been going on in our song circle and I'd like to discuss it with you." And then go on to say what you think and feel, and what you perceive the group is thinking and feeling. Be willing to hear what the newcomers are thinking or feeling. Be willing to be the go-between interpreting the feelings and thoughts of various viewpoints, to one another, so that they can think about the situation. Consider, after this groundwork has been laid, bringing the topic up within the group in a respectful fashion. And keep in mind that however you perceive religious issues, in this situation these new folks will be outnumbered, as being the newcomers. Advocate for their right to be treated respectfully, with the rest of the group. A leader leads, and does not control. For participants, I'll restate what I said in the earlier thread on the same topic.... which is, reacting to try to control what is perceived to be happening is not quite in order.... what IS in order is to respond in such a fashion that one honors and expresses one's own belief system, about how people ought to be treated. IMO the question is, "How do I believe human beings ought to treat other human beings?" Treat these newcomers like that. Model living by what you believe. ~Susan |
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15 Apr 03 - 07:35 PM (#934332) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: McGrath of Harlow Same problem arises with any song that's crap. Mostly people pick up on the body language and so forth. Maybe the thing is to find a way of pushing them in the direction of songs with a religious content that are not crap (such as "I bid you goodnight"). Same with politics. Dealing with any kind of bigotry from a friend, I'd assume it's just thoughtless, and talk about it outside the immediate setting maybe. If that doesn't work, the frienship is in danger. If people insist on giving overlong introductions I don't think its rude to ask them to get a move on and sing the song. |
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15 Apr 03 - 07:54 PM (#934341) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Bill D "A leader leads, and does not control." I agree with greg, sadly....there IS no clear solution when some want the singing to be a **MESSAGE** rather than just sharing good music. "Witnessing" is a special thing, and needs a special time and place...and 'public' song circles are perhaps not the place. |
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15 Apr 03 - 08:07 PM (#934345) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Tweed One word: Diamondbacks. They will clear out even the largest congregations of Lutherans or Methodists. Results are absolutely guaranteed at any local song circle. Yerz, Tweed (ducking covered dishes and seven-bean salad..) |
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15 Apr 03 - 08:24 PM (#934352) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: NicoleC Every plan has a flaw, Tweed. It'll only encourage Snake Handler Pentecostals. |
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15 Apr 03 - 08:53 PM (#934366) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Ebbie What Susan said (7:25) nudged my memory. I did find it necessary once to talk privately to a person who was doing that. The message I tried to get across to her was that she might want to consider forming a group that wanted to sing and talk primarily about her interests, that this group, for better or worse, was eclectic and was more interested in a wide range of subjects. She didn't come back, but we're still 'friendly acquaintances'. This kind of thing gets around. I have a pet no-no and I no longer have to say anything about it- the group lets any newcomer know that Eb doesn't want any early Beatles songs. I'm aware that some of the regulars have snuck a later song through on occasion but that's fine. As long as I like the song well enough, I can handle a bit of it. Just don't give me any she loves me yeah yeah yeah stuff. (Or is that 'you'? Don't bother answering...:) |
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15 Apr 03 - 09:15 PM (#934377) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Tweed Nicole that's even better! Snake fights could be arranged with betting on the side. Pitting the pitvipers in the pit for paramutual profit or even as a fundraiser. Far more exciting than bingo on Wednesdays. You're a genius yore Ladyship....I wish I'd thought of it! Yerz, Tweed (Ducking creme pies and jello salad..) |
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15 Apr 03 - 09:29 PM (#934382) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg Hey Ebbie, NO KumBahYAH at OUR house! :~) ~Susan |
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15 Apr 03 - 10:00 PM (#934404) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST,Pete Peterson We've been learning a lot of Louvin Brothers songs; if I ever got in a song circle like that we would probably do: Do you live what you preach? Do you preach what you live? On the right hand of God would you stand? Jesus knows every deed good or bad you have done, Do you live what you preach in your church? I think of it as asking questions that nobody can ever live up to. . . |
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15 Apr 03 - 10:30 PM (#934417) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Ebbie Go, Louvin Brothers! One of my favorite groups as I was growing up- and I still love them. Along with Reno and Smiley; and Webb Pierce. And Kitty Wells. And bunches more. There's nothing like the music you learned when you were 15-18 years old. LOL, Susan. There are some songs I can take equably in certain settings- Kumbayah at a campfire is one of them. There are others I've gotten tired of in the last 30 years, done to death. 'I Saw the Light' is one of them, 'Columbus Stockade Blues' is another, so is 'Banks of the Ohio'. Mind you, our jammers don't know that- so they warble merrily along and I just keep a smile on my face... |
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15 Apr 03 - 11:43 PM (#934455) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: paddyspig WOW..you guys really get into it here! Im pretty new to this site but I have to say I am not pretty new to this situation. Song circles invite folks to share music. The very nature of this kind of gathering encourages people to play and want to share music that they love whether it be for the tune, the lyrics or the message. When I participate in these settings I am prepared Going in it, to be Prepared to Get out when need be. If someone starts in with a tune that absolutely makes my Teeth ache..I take that as a cue to get a cup of coffee..While Im sipping that coffee I am usually trying to Astral Project BUT I guess Im just not CENTERED enough to do that! However, I would never, never consider telling someone to pick a different type of music to share Unless of course it was something particulalry Hateful...that which I have never encountered. I know that sometimes these tunes are played to "spread the Word" but I also know that most of the time they are played because its "All they Know". I am Guilty myself of throwing in a Verse or two of Amazing Grace especially with new comers because folks KNOW IT..If someone can sing a song and feel it No matter what it is..its paletable.,,YES, even if it is TOM PAXTONS "Bring back the Chair". You can limit sermons though by asking at the beginning of All the sessions that folks keep their intros to..Title..Writer..and what KEY its In.."that way No one feels singled out". If someone wants more info on a tune and its origin they can approach the initiator of the song on a break.. Know that you cant really hope to get these women on the same Track as you so in Order for you to stay sane When You see their Train pulling into the Station..Step away from the Platform..I know it will be a Test of Your HUMANITY to continue to be Kind I hope Your Group survives this conflict..Music should RELIEVE Tension..Not CREATE It!! Susan |
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16 Apr 03 - 03:28 AM (#934529) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Art Thieme Song circles of almost any kind---especially religious ones---are caused by alien ships landing on the corn---or, at least, by prankish students tromping on 'em by moonlight. Art Thieme |
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16 Apr 03 - 10:07 AM (#934708) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST,sorefingers Lady has a point, no matter what you believe in there are times and places for shoving it at other folks. Song circles are not such occasions. |
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16 Apr 03 - 10:22 AM (#934718) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: McGrath of Harlow As Pete Peterson suggests, the best way to make a comment in a singaround is in a song. Another examplke of how the best way to say something that matters to you is in a song, and not in a speech. |
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16 Apr 03 - 11:42 AM (#934781) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: MAG This all reminds me of the time I flew in to the Denver airport, and it was shut down, one end to the other (no power). After jogging through the airport to catch a cancelled flight ( no flight boards), my body shut down, too, and I ended up in a wheelchair in a big room full of all us needing "special assistance." The little old lady next to me turned to me and suggested we pray. Now, I personally find this stuff an act of aggression against my space, but, trying to be nice while at the same time letting her know she was rejected, I said, "Oh, what a good idea, but I call it channelling." Erg. It did not have the desired effect. She was shouting over me so hard the attendant came and led her away. She was still shouting at me from the other side of the room. When a flight to my destination became operational they put me on it first, to get me out of there, and she started up again as I was wheeled past her. As a result I have an even lower tolerance for being preached at. I would come at your ladies with the revised standard version of "Old Time Religion." I experience proseletizing not as friendliness but as aggression, however passive aggressive. I can't hack the Denver Airport anymore either. Having the Jehovah's all over my sister's funeral ten years ago (from the other side of the family) also doesn't help. argh. |
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16 Apr 03 - 01:36 PM (#934845) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: paddyspig It saddens me though to see that speaking to other folks of God and Prayer are viewed as a form of Terrorism. I have people call me at my home as all of you do..usually in the middle of dinner to sell me stuff other then God and I am able to live through it and not wish them into the corn field. I think we all need to be more tolerant, especially those of us who are connected with the ARTS, as freedom of EXPRESSION is the very Foundation of any Good Piece of Music, Art or Dance! This is not a Godless Country. So regardless of our Personal beliefs..its part of the stew! |
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16 Apr 03 - 01:37 PM (#934847) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: McGrath of Harlow What's the difference, when you get down to it? |
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16 Apr 03 - 02:18 PM (#934875) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg Comes down to an undignified and potentially painful mudwrestling match, when each party is screaming, "It's about ME! You offended ME! My feelings are more important than YOURS!" ... which can happen from either side, as I think we see far too often and far too sadly. But :~) enough about me-- ~Susan |
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16 Apr 03 - 04:52 PM (#934963) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST,Pete Peterson laughing VERY hard at your last comment, Susan! too close to things I've seen happen! |
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16 Apr 03 - 05:39 PM (#934991) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg Pete, "I can't tolerate how intolerant you're being!" "YOU are SO JUDGMENTAL!" Can go on for hours. When actually, there are millions of things happening right in that same moment that are far more worthy of our putting our attention on them. It's so SERIOUS! Alternative approach: "Oh let's pray...." "Thanks-- oh my, what a pretty necklace you're wearing." Or, "I call it channeling." "Thanks-- oh my, what a pretty necklace you're wearing." One can always just talk about the weather! ~Susan |
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16 Apr 03 - 05:42 PM (#934994) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST,Russ diggy, It seems to me that your proselytizers are taking unfair advantage of a situation. Kind of like the way telemarketers take unfair advantage a widespread pavlovian response to a ringing phone and basic human politeness. The two give them just the foot in the door they want. These proselytizers are salesmen. No matter what the message or the intentions, they are selling a lifestyle and belief system. They are not doing it inadvertently, they are doing it consciously. That sort of public, unsubtle, "witnessing" is a basic activity of certain forms of Christianity. If someone pitched insurance before beginning a tune when it was his turn in the circle, or sang advertising ditties in a serious attempt to influence the group's buying habits, or cornered people during the break to discuss hot investment prospects, the group would deal quickly and effectively with it. The person would be informed in no uncertain terms that a song circle is NOT like a chamber of commerce mixer and NOT an appropriate venue for his activities. For that matter, if Jehovah's Witnesses starting attending your song circle in order to pass out their tracts, I'll bet they would be dealt with as quickly and effectively. You're all in a tizzy about dealing with these people because you are not properly categorizing them, and they are taking advantage of that. |
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16 Apr 03 - 06:13 PM (#935012) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: McGrath of Harlow "Shut up talking, and sing whatever you feel like singing" Maybe you need a BS room next door to the singing place... |
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16 Apr 03 - 08:30 PM (#935094) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Tweed Somebody, bring out the Snakes! There ain't no BS with them things...they're either there or they're not. And where is that khandu?....he dragged me into this morass the other day and now he's gone....I'm left here hanging....no anti venom within miles....serious folkies and people of faith on all fronts. Why do I listen to that guy......I must get back to the spaw project in which a Haggis is superimposed as headware, to resemble a rubber bathing cap....damn that khandu...May pit bulls devour his shoes.. Tweed |
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17 Apr 03 - 11:19 AM (#935465) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg I had an interesting experience this AM. I think this thread made me think about it differently than I might have otherwise. So, come with me to the place where the decisions can actually occur, if we are intentional about what we do with the music we put out into our world..... I'm putting together the secular material we will use in August for a public (family) singalong at a town's "Old Home Days." It's a community that really needs music. I'm going through all the old binders to see what we have. I find one binder that's mixed gospel and folk. Oy! "Kids Under Construction" is perfect-- oh no, in one verse it mentions the LORD. Include it or not? Suddenly, the shoe we've been talking about in this thread is on my other foot-- So I'm sitting there thinking, what's my JOB? My job (in that singalong) is to reach out to what is universal, or as nearly so as I can approximate... to build community in that sad little town that so lacks it, by setting out the commonalities with the most elegant community builder I know-- music. In THAT context, "Lord" has to come out, no two ways about it. A minor rewrite and I'm in business. Then I started to reflect on this thread, and I began to realize that it's so precious to have the capacity, as a human being, to be intentional about what we do, especially with our music. So again, there is the fresh realization that what we can do in the situation of a song circle (where religion can become a sticky issue), is follow what we believe, and look to our own responsibility instead of to what we think someone else ought to be doing. And it made me grateful that so many people here at Mudcat ARE intentional about what they do with music-- it's really not so easy to do that. In our monthly jam, I have often found myself with little or no secular material ready to roll out in the jam. What I've done is explain that mostly what I play is gospel, and I ask if anyone will be offended if that's what I play in my turn. Then I pick a piece suitable to the occasion-- an old-fashioned mountain-gosple classic, for instance, or a spiritual. NOT a salvation-plea song. I've never had an objection, and we've never seen a jam where gospel took over, either. A little respect goes a long way. ~Susan |
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17 Apr 03 - 01:39 PM (#935593) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Ebbie Just a little segue here: One of the things I have done in gospel singing (my favorite type) is to tweak the lyrics just a bit, mostly to salve my own discomfort rather than to circumvent others' reactions. For instance, I'm not really comfortable with the 'saved' concept in a mixed group; there are many, many devout people who use other terms and concepts for the after life. So, in the song It Won't Be Long (It May Be Soon) rather than 'I'm saved', I sing in the last verse: "Someday this mortal life will cease (It won't be long, it may be soon) Someday I'll see my saviour's face (It won't be long, it may be soon) If he should call me this I know, in faith I'm ready now to go I'm waiting with my heart aglow (It won't be long, it may be soon)" It's a small thing but it suits me better. |
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17 Apr 03 - 07:52 PM (#935697) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: McGrath of Harlow I was thinking about what I said about the best way of dealing with this kind of thing in a song circle might be to do it through a song. And then I started trying to think of songs which might be helpful in this kind of context - tactful but strong without being pushy. For example, when you feel someone is pushing too hard trying to impose their own views on other people, or when they've come out with something that seems bigotted in some way. Any suggestions? |
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17 Apr 03 - 11:25 PM (#935770) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Abby Sale McGrath: "Bonniest Lass" from Merry Muses "As I Came In By Fisherrow" from Herd Pretty much any truly bawdy song. "Tying a Knot in the Devil's Tail" (or Tyin Ten Knots...) "Mad Tom of Bedlam" (or Bedlam Boys) "Farmer's Curst Wife" (or Devil and the Farmer's Wife) Likely you could find something fun about religion at the filk & Hash websites. Almost any song that lauds non-God-inspired human goodness @deadbaby songs @hunt songs But mostly a non-subtle, in your face, right out loud and non-cowardly "You know, this isn't a church. I'm Jewish (Muslim, Taoist, atheist, Sioux) and don't appreciate your prostlytizing here. Please sing a song or else take it outside into the street where that trash belongs." I guarantee subtlety wouldn't work with people that determined to force their own notion of your needs on you. |
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17 Apr 03 - 11:42 PM (#935777) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: denise:^) I think I'm back...we'll see if this shows up! (I already posted this once, but I don't see it--and I just had to 'reset my cookie' ;^) I think the problems presented here are fairly universal, and I think it was nailed by the comment: "It's about ME! You offended ME! My feelings are more important than YOURS!" That seems to be the general battle cry... Although I'm not always comfortable wtih the "praise" songs, I feel okay about just not joining in, getting some refreshments, making a trip to the restroom, etc. I don't think I'd comment on them, unless the accompanying dialog felt, shall we say, "persuasive." People like all kinds of songs for different reasons, and I'll sing almost anything, if the music's good enough! (I have a really hard time with "Farther Along." It's so whiny that it makes me kinda squirmy...I usually view that song as an opportunity to stretch my legs a bit!) We (at our folk group) had an 'issue' with the song "Lord of the Dance." Some folks really love it; others find it offensive. Our solution: It isn't appropriate to call it the official "song of the month," for the whole group, but it can be requested, and led, individually in the song jam. There are folks you can never please, however, and they're ready to find fault no matter what. I work at a school with only 2 Jewish teachers, and it seems that they are always on the lookout for signs of "overt Christianity." (I think one of them keeps a record, and 'documents' whenever someone wears a cross necklace...) I sang at a farewell party at work this week, and one of the songs I chose was "Love Will Guide Us." (It happens to be in Rise Up Singing, if you'd like to see it...) It begins: If you cannot sing like angels, If you cannot speak before thousands You can give from deep within you You can change the world with your love. It goes on to tell of the power of one individual to make a change for good in the world--an apppropriate message for an educator, don't you think? But these two were angry about the word 'angels' in the first line. I tried to explain to them, when they were lambasting me afterwards, that 'sings like an angel' is a figure of speech; if I said, "Looks like we're all in the same boat, here," does that make me a sea captain? They were not convinced, although the word "angels" in this song is the only thing that might be considered religious. They were positive I was trying to 'convert' someone--although WHOM and TO WHAT were kinda vague. (I am not associated with any organized religion at this time, although I would consider myself a Christian, if pressed...) Off on a tangent to air a pet peeve: Has anyone else ever come across folks that, once they hear you sing, try to get you to come and join their church choir? What is it that makes people think that everyone with a good voice NEEDS to be in a CHOIR? (I even hear it a lot from people who aren't trying to sign me up for theirs: "Wow, you sing really well. Are you in a CHOIR?" Arrghhhhhh!!!!) I, personally, no longer find choral singing to be very fulfilling (although I did it all the way up through high school, in college, and even afterward, for a while). These people won't give up, though--I've had some that have been nagging me for a couple of years. They just can't believe that I'm really not interested. Anyone else come across these relentless recruiters? Denise:^) |
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18 Apr 03 - 12:22 AM (#935784) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: robinia On the subject of "insipid musical material," is this a special test that we only impose on religious songs? Songs in praise of trees, for instance, can be musically insipid too, and (recalling a long and fervent one at a song circle I once hosted) I confess, personally, to finding THAT a truly painful experience: sentiments you applaud set to awful music.... Of course, as Clairebear said, you don't have to sing along..... |
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18 Apr 03 - 12:51 AM (#935791) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST,Russ denise, For the two chronic malcontent Jewish teachers eager to "find fault no matter what" (eye roll) the basic issue has nothing to do with "feelings". It's not some silly hypersensitivity. They're not getting their backs up over trivial differences of style either. It's not about your saying to-may-to and their saying to-mah-to and trying to bully you into pronouncing it their way. Finally, it's got nothing to do with proselytizing. It's got a lot to do with fear. And it's not an irrational fear, a phobia. It makes perfectly good sense. They know that Christianity has an abysmal track record when it comes to Judaism: salt and pepper, Astaire and Rogers, Christianity and anti-Semitism They know enough history to know that the holocaust was not an isolated phenomenon or a fluke. There might even be a personal component here. Perhaps they lost most of their European ancestors during World War II. They are simply Jews who have learned in the hardest way possible that the price of survival is eternal vigilance and a willingness to speak out. A little "overt Christianity" today, a touch of anti-Semitism tomorrow, and next year.... Russ (who is NOT jewish) |
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18 Apr 03 - 01:10 AM (#935797) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: toadfrog I'm sure you are not Jewish, GUEST Russ. But I think you are a Troll. |
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18 Apr 03 - 01:26 AM (#935801) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: denise:^) w/reference to "GUEST, Russ'" post: Sorry, kiddo, but it IS silly hypersensitivity, and it *is* all about LOOKING for ways to be offended. You might have had a point, had the song I sang been a hymn or some kind of "gospel" or "praise" song. However-- The song is NOT a "Christian" song! It's a song that celebrates the ability of each individual to make a difference in the world. I'm not going to print all of the lyrics here (don't feel like typing them out), but, trust me, the word "angels" in the first line is the ONLY thing that could be considered religious in the entire song. Feel free to go look it up... I, myself, don't particularly enjoy gospel songs, but I'll do one if I'm around when one is brought up. (Except for "Farther Along..." ;^) I've also done songs from all kinds of other religions and cultures that I don't belong to--including Judaism. (Interesting side note: having the last name that I do, people often assume I'm Jewish. I'm not. I've even had people INSIST that I MUST be. My favorite comment of all time is, "Well, you are, but you just don't know it!" Hmmmm...if *I* don't, who would?--but I digress...) What we are objecting to, here, is people who use a 'song circle' platform to inflict their beliefs on the 'captives' in the circle--whether it be to make others believe as they do, or to force others to 'neuter' every song they sing. I, personally, have no problem with a topic being mentioned in a song--my issues don't start until the diatribes or lectures begin. That's where I draw the line. Singing?? That, I can handle. I feel the same way about concert venues--a performer has the right to *state* their views, of course, but when they get on a bandwagon, I've often been really uncomfortable. To clarify: If it was going to be, say, a "Gay Rights" concert, it should have been billed as one. Or, if it was going to be a "Born Again Christian" concert, it should be billed as one. Don't bring me in here to see something billed as a concert, when it's really just a rally/proselytizing mission for your particular cause. Anything that has the audience members squirming in their seats, checkng out their fingernails, and bending over to tie shoes with no laces, is a problem for me. (I once went to a local "folk concert," where one of the teenage performers started hollering, in the middle of a song, "You might think you love your husband or your wife, but if you don't love Jesus, you're going to hell..." I was quite annoyed, and wished someone would come and yank her off the stage. The gospel song she had been singing, while not to my taste, had not really bothered me--but the hollering did!) I find it hard to believe that just the word "angels" in a song would make anyone THAT uncomfortable. I don't think anyone--Christian, Pagan, Jewish, Buddhist, whatever--has the right to demand that the entire rest of the world limit their conversation, songs, art, etc., to images that reflect only their beliefs. The concept is ludicrous. It is silly to take offense at a mere mention of anything that is not included in your world view. Denise:^) |
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18 Apr 03 - 05:07 AM (#935846) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: McGrath of Harlow Angels are part of Jewish religious tradition and Muslim relogious tradition every bit as much as Christian. And lots other religions as well, even if they might fly under different names. Those are the kind of objections I class under bigotry. |
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18 Apr 03 - 08:54 AM (#935899) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: curmudgeon Some additions to Abby Sales' list: The Preacher and the Slave Get the Bosses Off Your Back We Shall Not Be Moved Solidarity Forever Praise Boss After all, why should the devil have all the good tunes -- Tom |
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18 Apr 03 - 09:04 AM (#935905) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST,Russ toadfrog, No more than I've ever been. Russ (perennial guest) |
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18 Apr 03 - 01:33 PM (#936047) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: McGrath of Harlow Any suggestion for a song to get across the suggestion that it's better to sing than to rabbit on about what you are planning to sing? |
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18 Apr 03 - 01:34 PM (#936048) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg "Sing for the Song, Boys!" (It's in a thread around here somewhere.) A verse could always be added about the topic. ~S~ |
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18 Apr 03 - 05:25 PM (#936173) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Bill D "(Except for "Farther Along..." ;^)".. well, **I** will sing "Farther Along",probably one of the most sanctimonious songs in existence...just because it is a good chorus song ...and...it allows me to add one verse a friend of mine collected at a Baptist church in Texas...seriously.. "If workin' and prayin' have any reward, Surely, someday, I'll meet with my Lord. 'Cause workin' and prayin' are my greatest thrill. If anyone makes it, Lord, surely I will." ...now THAT always gets a rise from the populace! (and I really liked guest, Russ's post back up there about "properly categorizing" those who proselytize under the guise of 'singing'...it is not hard to tell who is emphasizing 'song' and who is offering a message. I don't care if they HAPPEN to believe as they sing, but "praise" songs have a certain 'pointedness'...just as an insurance salesman has a certain 'approach' when he is maniplating a conversation. We have several avowed Christians in groups I attend who sing lots of gospel song...but I am never offended by how they present the songs, because they usually do them out of the sheer joy of music, and in a way that even an old curmudgeon like me can cope with. |
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18 Apr 03 - 05:50 PM (#936186) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST,ebabe I can't help but wonder if the O.P. is as tolerant as she would like to think. You want to keep people from having a certain mentality yet you are closed to it when it doesn't jibe with your beliefs. If this person is motivated by spirituality, so what. I somehow think if she was singing some other sort of music, such as Buddhism or Wiccan, you may not have such a problem with it. Tolerance is a hard thing. |
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18 Apr 03 - 06:28 PM (#936199) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Bill D I am reminded of a secular saying I like a lot: "The hardest thing in the world...To know how to do something, and to watch someone doing it wrong....and to say nothing" (like making cookies the wrong way, for instance,,or a martini) This can easily be shifted to apply to many people who are religious: they *know* they are right, and it is very hard for many of them to not use ANY opportunity to 'witness' and spread the joy.........but in mixed groups is is almost necessary to limit both the amount and 'flavor' of the songs sung so as not to seem to be preaching instead of just sharing good songs. If someone were to sing a murder ballad, no one is likely to think you are advocating killing pregnant girlfriends, and if you sing "Year of Jubilo", no one is likely to think you are promoting slavery.....but ifall you sing is 'praise' songs, or gospel exhortations, it is not unreasonable to suspect 'motives'. It can be a fine line, but since there are churches where those who believe can share religious songs freely, it is a good idea to mix up 'public' songs with some non-religious music, lest it get overwhelming. I am, in case you hadn't figgered it out, NON-religious, yet I will sing a gospel number, if it seems to fit the mood, because it expresses something about the history of my tradition and is connected to other, non-religious songs. (If you have never heard Helen Schneyer, who is Jewish, sing Christian gospel songs, you have missed something special!)...but she DOES sometimes give proper disclaimers when she has a mixed audience. |
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18 Apr 03 - 06:49 PM (#936207) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: McGrath of Harlow Generally speaking murder ballads tend to be a bit disapproving of fellas who kill their girlfriends or whatever; and Year of Jubilo is celebrating the end of slavery. So those analogies don't really work. I tend to feel that, if in some sense you don't mean what you sing, you shouldn't really sing it. "In some sense" allows for a lot of latitude. You don't have to be "a believer" to be able to sing a song from a religious tradition, your own or other peoples, and be sincere about it, because there are so many layers in religious traditions with which it is possible to identify from outside, and even when you maybe disagree sharply with other aspects. The best thing people with a strong set of beliefs - religious or political for that matter - can do is, surely, to be self-evidently good and trustworthy people, so that their friends might want to find out what makes them tick. Imposing sermons or political speeches on other people isn't the way to do it. |
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18 Apr 03 - 07:10 PM (#936224) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Ely I play with a group that consists mostly of conservative Christians--it isn't a Christian music group but I'm in the wrong part of the country if I'm looking for left-leaners. Luckily, most of these people are not overbearing and the focus stays on the music (I'm sure it helps that the majority of it is instrumental, not sung). I didn't grow up with a lot of religious music but there are a number of religious songs I do like ("I'll Fly Away", "Uncloudy Day", "Leaning on the Everlasting Arms", "It Soon Be Done", even "Wondrous Love"). If I present a song, it's usually something secular--Saturday, I'm teaching "Railroading on the Great Divide" and "Engine 143"--and if the group sings something that offends me, I take a bathroom break. I know that sounds chicken but I knew what I was getting into when I moved to Texas. I could sing "Joe Hill" all the way through by the time I was five but I wouldn't present it because a) it's a real downer, and b) the politics would go over like a lead balloon. We have had to drop hints on occasion, though, that music club is not the time or the place for certain things; we followed the plan of publishing a general notice first in the newsletter, and then having the club president speak privately to some particularly persistent missionaries. They eventually drifted away and, as much as I don't like the idea of excluding people, I hope they found another forum that was better suited to their agenda. |
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18 Apr 03 - 07:19 PM (#936227) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Bill D "So those analogies don't really work."....I guess I could have though longer and given better analogies, but the point is that 'some' awkward topics are more easily done and accepted in a mixed group than others, and it simply requires some discretion and sensitivity. Yet, I do agree pretty much with what you say in the rest of your post McGrath. As for 'meaning' what you sing...I think many good songs are 'good' because the folks who wrote them did mean them and crafted them well in order to express something meaningful. It is possible to celebrate that tradition and genre' and preserve songs from our past without suggesting that we 'mean' them as they were written. Perhaps songs about taking advantage of women are a better analogy. There are many good songs with bad concepts, and it is often a good idea to offer a disclaimer about them if you don't know your audience. Music has always been used to further causes, and thus has 'weight' in many venues, but if the venue is simply 'sharing songs', I watch what I sing...and hope others will do the same. |
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18 Apr 03 - 07:22 PM (#936230) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg Anyone familiar with the "one-point-program" concept? If a group gathers for a single, generally-understood purpose, it's a bad idea (and poor manners) to bring your own one-point, all-the-time, everywhere-you-go agenda and try to run that agenda on the people gathered around the one-point program..... these people, who come to "work the room," are NOT there to share the agenda of the greater group. Often they are destructive of what has taken a lot of time and effort to build up.... and it doesn't take long for the group to push them out, for the sake of protecting to their one-point program. It's not just that thing we agree to call "proselytizing." It's equally common and unpleasant to find someone temporarily dominating a group, when that person's agenda is any of the following: 1. I'm here to showcase 3 songs from my new CD and tell you where I am playing next week, and I hope you will want to some see and buy my music. 2. I'm here to audition for bookings cuz I heard booking agents come here to hang out and just play. 3. I'm here to have a quick meeintg with the old regulars at this song circle, cuz we are all putting on the annual festival next month and we need to get the volunteers lined up, and we donwanna have a meeeeeeeetingggggggg......... 4. I'm here to socialize ONLY with people I identify as "mygroup," and if they aren't wearing Birkenstocks (or whatever clothing identifies the members of the elite), you're invisible. Possibly dangerous. 5. I'm here to promote world peace, right now, as I see it, or else. 6. I'm here to get away from those nasty [insert group of choice, including "proselytizing Christians"] against whom I have built up quite a bit of bias and about whom I have made some rigid long-term decisions so they don't control pore lil ole MEEEEEEEEE.... 7. I'm here to get laid. If you are wearing pants and are willing to consider taking them off, can I sit next to you???? 8. I'm here because my recovery depends on me getting what I neeeeed here, and I wish I had something to give but, frankly, I don't. .... and more. Seen 'em all. Done a few myself. Oh well. :~) In our rural county, a very smart person told me right after we arrived, "This is a big county geographically but a small one in numbers, and word travels fast. If you aren't going to get along, that's usually figured out pretty fast. It's pretty hard to hide here. You have no choice but to be (and be seen to be) yourself." She was right. Go to something trying to work the room, and you are.... considered worthless. The circle closes, and you ain't in it. ~Susan |
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18 Apr 03 - 11:22 PM (#936305) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: denise:^) Another for your list, Susan: One who uses the venues of another to openly hawk and promote their own CD/availability for performance! Our folk society is often recruited to have a group play at festivals, etc., as a 'public service,' around our area. We generally open these events up and let anyone interested show up and play--and it had always worked out fine. Then we got a new member... From the beginning, she was different. Every meeting was an opportunity to make the "song jam" sit and listen to the songs she'd written since the *last* song jam (that one's already on your list); She demanded 'stage time' for our weekend mini-festivals, although she never offered to teach a workshop, set up chairs, work in the kitchen, etc. (Generally, stage time is offered first to the workshop leaders, next to the volunteers, and finally opened up for 'open stage' slots.) But, the best one of all: She showed up at one of our "public service" performances at a local festival, armed with a big boom box, a TV tray, her 'business cards,' and a box of CDs. She proceeded to set up her "booth" right there, in the [charity group] pavilion, and turn on the boom box--playing her CD, LOUDLY--before, after, and at every slight pause in our performance! (Instrument change, etc.) To say that I was livid is the understatement of the century... Happy ending: She left our group soon afterward--we "weren't doing anything for her..." (Funny, she wasn't doing anything for us, either!) Denise:^) |
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19 Apr 03 - 01:34 AM (#936339) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg !!!!!!! I had a similar experience. It's so tempting to tell people off. Each and every time, it's a temptation. I guess it's easier for me to hold my tongue when I see people acting so foolishly, in my great old age (50, :~) but I have some gray hair showing), when I remember how really insensitive I have been at various points, and with no ill intention at all.... and when I realize that people who do not know better will eventually know better..... and when I remind myself that no matter how skillfully we may speak when we offer correction, people tend to learn best through example paired with their own motivation. Of course, I'm new to this gray-hair thing and I frequently fail to recall these things. But more and more I DO remember to remember that even when we are right that someone is acting like an idiot, in the final analysis it's just not that important-- they haven't really harmed me, and even the most offensive person may be a lot of fun to play music with--- there's that one-point program again! :~) ~Susan |
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19 Apr 03 - 08:36 AM (#936414) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Jeri Susan, YES!!! I've made enough dumb mistakes and social blunders in my life that I will forever be thankful to those kind souls who have pointed them out with kindness. Some folks undoubtedly had a problem thinking I could really be that dumb so I must be disingenuous, but they explained anyway. The results hopefully proved that, yes, I really COULD be that dumb, but I'm pretty good at absorbing clues. Others aren't, but it's the grown-up thing to at least try the level-headed approach first. The solutions that are most likely to make things better instead of worse are usually the least extreme ones. |
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19 Apr 03 - 09:55 AM (#936431) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: paddyspig HEY... I was recently part of a Prayer circle and can you believe someone actually had the nerve to Break into a Folk song. Christ.. we were so OFFENDED. Down right Terrorism at its WORST... ITs absolutely no wonder we live in a society where folks start legal litigations everytime they get a Hair Bent. I grew up in Brooklyn NY..It was a pretty diverse neighborhood ethnically and it taught me at a YOUNG age to be Tolerant of Others and their Feelings. If you are singing or participating in a Song circle that encompasses American Traditional Music then I really hate to point it out but the Word GOD and LORD and ANGELS are going to flying in your Face all the time.. Get over it and if you cant.. PLAY POLKAS. As I stated in the last post.. Limit what folks can say prior to their tune to AUTHOR..Title..chord progression..ITS not a soapbox for anyone to sell their wares..Song circles are for Song. ALL Song "except of course for accordian pieces because the term (squeeze box) I personally find offensive" Susan |
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19 Apr 03 - 10:36 AM (#936450) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Midchuck 1. I'm here to showcase 3 songs from my new CD and tell you where I am playing next week, and I hope you will want to some see and buy my music.... 4. I'm here to socialize ONLY with people I identify as "mygroup," and if they aren't wearing Birkenstocks (or whatever clothing identifies the members of the elite), you're invisible. Possibly dangerous. 5. I'm here to promote world peace, right now, as I see it, or else... 8. I'm here because my recovery depends on me getting what I neeeeed here, and I wish I had something to give but, frankly, I don't. Ain't that the truth! And they get grumpy if you bring a gun to a jam... P. |
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19 Apr 03 - 10:46 AM (#936453) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg I nominate paddyspig's comment as shorthand to refer in general to the sensible no harm/no foul approach: PLAY POLKAS!. Next time someone nitpicks me in any setting, I'm going to just exclaim, "Doh! Note to self: PLAY POLKAS!" Speakig of polkas and tolerance, may I recommend for your consideration THE SCHMIELZO POLKA, located in the Mudcat songbook. ~Susan |
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19 Apr 03 - 11:25 AM (#936469) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: SINSULL Fascinating stuff. I am fairly new to Song Circles and was overwhelmed at first (still am, at times) at the talent and knowledge of some. But I have always been in a settings where everyone was tolerant not only of musical choices but tone deaf singers, 60s and 70s "traditional", and all religions. But I have also never been exposed to preaching and conversion attempts before a religious song is sung. I have seen some talkative folks at the Getaway who helpfully offer every bit of information on every song or tune performed cutting down the number of songs heard considerably. They are usually told firmly but kindly to save it for later - we are here to sing. When is the next Circle? I am curious as to how this will play out. |
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19 Apr 03 - 12:10 PM (#936497) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Rick Fielding Chinese food, Song Circle, 'Religious', Warm Clothing. What do these words and phrases have in common? They're common to both Canada and the United States, but have different meanings depending on which side of the border you happen to be on. Trust me a bit on this, 'cause I've done a lot of traveling, and my hobby is observation. I'm sure there are many other countries that could be added, but I'll stick with what I know for sure. "Dress warmly dear".....even in Chicago or Fargo, it ain't the same as Montreal! Toronto has tons of Chinese restaurants, but if you want "hot and sour", "sweet and sour", or any number of sauces to taste even remotely familiar, don't go to (say) New York, Boston, or Hartford. Oh and don't be surprised to see "Shrimp Chips"(!!) placed on the table before you order. But it's still Chinese food, it's still yummy......it's just.....well, DIFFERENT. 'Religious'? In Toronto that could probably apply to a Catholic who hasn't been to confession in ten years, but thought it might be interesting to see the Pope pass by a few months ago. I'd think of a Protestant person who went once a year to sing Handel's Messiah as religious by Toronto's standards, and most of the Jewish folks I know are hardly Synagogue go-ers. I'm probably being a bit facetious here, but basically it's true. Almost every family I've ever stayed with in the States (no matter how overtly political) says table grace, and has a connection with a Church.......compared to that, Canadian folkies really MUST seem like a Godless lot. The many song circles in Toronto relect these differences strongly. Some originate from political Activist sources (Camp Nyvelt, Highlander, Civil Rights movements, anti-nuke marches of 40 years ago, and women's rights issues. There are others (far more recent) that do have a strong "Trad" feel, but I don't feel the original poster is referring to those. Because I've been (and probably continue to be) on "both sides of the Fence", having been a long time fan of trad, trad, trad, old time Country and Bluegrass music.....but also consider myself a "thinking" activist, a bit of balancing is neccessary. I follow the "when in Rome, do as the Romans do".....'cause without that attitude, I would have missed most of the music I loved. I mean, can you imagine sitting around a fire (35 years ago) in Berryville, Va. at The Bill Monroe Festival, with many of my (Southern Baptist) heroes, and introducing a song by saying "here's one I picked up at the 'anti-Vietnam' demo last week in Toronto!!! Not a chance...when it comes to the music and musicians I love....majority rules! Cheers Rick |
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19 Apr 03 - 12:23 PM (#936503) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: McGrath of Harlow "I can tolerate anything except bigots. Especially Protestant bigots..." (That's irony, I haste to point out, just in case.) |
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19 Apr 03 - 12:44 PM (#936520) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: paddyspig Here's a little Anthem I've whipped up for you to open your song circles with.. Please use it freely with no fear of Legal Repercussions from my end on Copywrite infringement Laws.. Sung Robustly to the tune of " I dont want her You, can Have Her, She's to fat for me!" OH my..Was that offensive too? If we dont like it Please Dont sing it Allah or Your God Jesus and His Mob Or we'll claim Jihad Anything that Might sound Holy Keep it to yourself Its offensive To OUR Senses Put it on a Shelf! Susan |
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19 Apr 03 - 01:27 PM (#936551) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: paddyspig OH by the way.. In the five days since He started this thread..Has anyone heard from Diggy-lo again. I certainly hope he at least lets us know How the next session goes... As a matter of Fact.. I would like him to keep a list of the All the tunes that were played at the next meeting.... just out of SHEER UNINHIBITED CURIOUSITY! Susan |
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19 Apr 03 - 01:34 PM (#936554) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: denise:^) Here's what I *think* I've been reading: To most folks, the *singing* is not the problem--it's the 'intro' and 'outtro' that get folks riled... It sounds to me like the general consensus is that most of us will sing along with nearly anyting, but don't want to be lured in by falsse pretenses. ("Come to our song jam! Oh, did we say 'Song Jam?' We meant altar call...") We also sound like we're fed up with ultra-sensitives who can't tolerate anything that is not a part of THEIR personal beliefs or choices. And we're tired of hijackers who come to a jam to take it over for their own purposes--whatever they may be. So, what was the original question? ;^) Denise:^) |
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19 Apr 03 - 02:06 PM (#936577) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg The original question? :~) I dunno, I don't care.... this has to be my favorite thread in a long, LONG time. No flames, no insisting on conflict, no pouting.... a chance to think, and think again, and keep thinking, with each of you... a chance to explore what has been a very difficult subject not only in song circles but indeed at Mudcat itself. (I think you newer members could not believe or understand how some of the discussions have been, after participating in this one.) GOOD JOB, everyone. ~Susan |
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19 Apr 03 - 02:10 PM (#936580) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: GUEST,folkvet I think this has been a fascinating thread but it makes me wonder about a few things. Very few posters are relating their comments to the very specific set of circumstances set out by Diggy way back at the beginning. It makes me wonder if after a few posts people just skim through what's already there before responding. Especially the posters who just throw a couple of lines out as if they've solved a complex problem by saying 'get rid of the politics'. A song circle mainly consisting of life long political activists could NEVER co-exist with religious fundamentalists of ANY stripe, and that certainly would include Orthodox Jews, Christians, Muslims or any other groups that accept supernatural Dieties. Oil and water! Great discussion when it deals with the original question though. Hea. |
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19 Apr 03 - 02:30 PM (#936591) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: paddyspig To Susan of WYSIWYG...and all other Posters... I would believe how these kinds of Threads End up as I Unwittingly jumped into one On a Catholic Chatline site about 2 years ago..without first Donning my Keflar Underwear.. Needless to say I got the Heiney Chewing of my life..and for the next few days waited for The molotov cocktails to come through my Living Room window.. WHAT was I thinking to actually post my Address. I followed this site "mudcat" for a couple of weeks before braving this one as I noticed Most of You Are Sane. I too want to Commend the LOT on their ability to speak their minds and feelings without Groping for names to throw out like.. Stinky idiot and Boney Headed Bible Banger. Thanks to All for a wonderfully stimulating and NON Hazardous THREAD.. Susan |
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19 Apr 03 - 02:33 PM (#936594) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: McGrath of Harlow If your definition of "religious fundamentalists" is people who "accept supernatural Deities", folkvet, you would be excluding a lot of "life long political activists", such as Martin Luther King, Gandhi... |
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19 Apr 03 - 02:41 PM (#936598) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: wysiwyg Well now folkvet.... I see it like this. Most threads at Mudcat start on a narrow topic and then.... evolve, progress, creep, whatever one might call it. I thin the orioginal question WAS addressed, pretty thoroughly. But like many good questions, it had a lot of other good questions tightly rolled up inside it. And.... look, you could not find two people more diametrically opposed on matters of the spirit than I and Bill D (hi Bill), at least I think that's a fair characterization. We co-exist quite nicely because we keep thinking and we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I have no doubt we could enjoy sharing a song circle, tho my main music involvement is playing gospel music weekly in church and tho that's what I often play in a song circle. I think people are actually capable of quite a bit more tolerance than we often expect. Hoping for it seems to draw it out, because it changes the way we offer our own selves in the interaction. ~Susan |
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19 Apr 03 - 03:07 PM (#936609) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: denise:^) About "thread creep--" I think we (nearly) all read the threads before we post, but, since we have minds, one thing reminds us of another, and that reminds someone else of something else... I think that the postings here *do* address the question at the beginning; at the very least, they let 'diggy-lo' know that the situation (and others like it) exist elsewhere, in other groups. WYSIWYG said: "I think people are actually capable of quite a bit more tolerance than we often expect." Yep, and if we start acting like we expect it, it starts showing up more and more--like the "Lord of the Dance" thing I mentioned 'way back up at the top. When we came up with guidelines that were a compromise--it could be an individual choice, but not designated as "song of the month--" after a bit of grumbling, the malcontents decided that it was an okay solution, and settled back down to the matter at hand--MUSIC. I think that the more you try to "sterilize" things, the more folks keep finding germs! Denise:^) |
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19 Apr 03 - 04:00 PM (#936622) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Rick Fielding Hmmmmmm.....maybe I'll......Oops I guess I DID! Rick |
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19 Apr 03 - 04:18 PM (#936631) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Jeri It's not even what's being said, but how it's being said, in my opinion. If someone starts talking AT me about anything, I quit listening and I often get irritated. The irritation often passes unless it happens one too many times, at which point, I'll either say something (and I'd hope I'd be polite about it), or simply leave. If it's ONLY me being annoyed, I'll probably just leave. With regard to thread creep, if there's a well-worn rut about, the discussion almost inevitably falls into it. New folks don't know it's an old rut, and the rut may be a natural progression from specific to generic. Anywho, I don't mind religious songs, they're part of who a person is and I wouldn't want anybody hiding a perfectly normal part of their personality ONLY because someone might get offended. Be who you are as long as you accept me for who I am. THAT'S where I draw the line - when someone thinks I ought to believe something different than I do and thinks they can bring about this change by annoying me. |
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19 Apr 03 - 04:59 PM (#936652) Subject: RE: Religion and Song Circles From: Ebbie From the other side of the fence- because I like gospel songs (actually I like most songs, gospel or not, that are actually saying something) I suspect that most of the music friends who come to my song circles think that I'm far more traditionally religious than I am. I used to say pre or post a gospel song that even though I may not subscribe to the theology of a particular song, I think it's important to sing it 'straight', ie, respectfully. I no longer bother with prefacing a song, so when the group hears me sing about 'Jesus' or 'heaven' or 'hell' or 'saviour', they may easily take it at face value. I'm thinking at the moment of songs like You Never Mentioned Him to Me and Jesus, Saviour, Pilot Me and I'm Building a Mansion and others of that ilk. All songs I like. It doesn't bother me. The friends that I know more intimately know my views on countless subjects, just as I know theirs. It follows that when I sing a love song or an adultery lament or a murder ballad, I give it the same intensity. And I ain't currently doing any of those things. :) |