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14 Apr 03 - 09:52 AM (#933086) Subject: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: wysiwyg Have you found that you can mix the two effectively over a period of time in a group that gathers regularly, and if so, how? Our "thing" meets monthly. When we first started out it was all songs, altho it was clear that a number of the musicians enjoyed the playing more than the singability of the material. Now, several of us have been exploring fiddle tunes, and it seems we've attracted more instrumentalists than songsters. After one night last summer when we tried to mix the two fairly, and discussed splitting into two rooms the next time after the opening beginners' jam, we just have not seen the singers come back in numbers. I'm frustrated enough that if there were a song circle closer than two hours away, I'd go to it. I play rhythm, and there are only so many fiddle tunes I'm willing to play as backup-- I need to develop the song side, and it was fun-- I feel like we inadvertently drove the singers out. We are exploring going to two meetings a month instead of one-- a song night and a tune night, although we would never exclude a tune on song night or vice versa; whatever the people choose when it's their turn, that's great. And we've added some PR to emphasize the songs circle side, with themes for the next several months and a leader designated to lead these in an almost workshop mode-- since the singers we HAVE had are not proactive about bringing songs to share-- we get a lot of "Whatever you want to play is OK with me," leaving Hardi and I as de facto workshop leaders each month. Seems like one problem came from the loss of the home photocopier in our fire some time ago-- used to be, people would bring songbooks or binders and we could make a quick couple of copies to share. This is NOT a group that is heavily into memorization, and that's not going to change, take my word for it. They DO make progress in being able to JAM without songhseets, but learning words is not going to happen with most of these folks. Your experiences? I am interested in opinions, too, but much more interested in your EXPERIENCE. ~Susan |
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14 Apr 03 - 10:06 AM (#933094) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: IanC Susan I suspect that most sessions in Enland are a mixture of both songs and music, though usually there's a preponderance of one over the other. I've only ever felt it was a good thing. Gives a sort of balance, especially if it's not llowed to develop completely one way or the other. :-) |
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14 Apr 03 - 10:10 AM (#933098) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: IanC Sorry. Posted too soon. Though we share things, we seldom use song books etc. People start off by joining in the chorus and after a few times round we find we've got a shared repertoire. Not really sure I like the idea of going to a session where everybody's handing round sheets all the time. I think that's one major difference across the atlantic. Believe me, people learn very quickly without books and things (or photocopied sheets). :-) |
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14 Apr 03 - 10:13 AM (#933101) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Bat Goddess The weekly Friday night Press Room session is a mixed session, both songs and tunes. As a singer at this session, I try to sing songs that involve as many of the others as possible, either by having a good chorus and/or harmonies, or by having good instrumental breaks. Linn |
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14 Apr 03 - 10:15 AM (#933105) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Rick Fielding Hi Susan. My experience over thirty five years is that "Never the twain shall meet". Now I'm not bad at gettin' folks to co-operate musically, but my experience has been that the old time frailer, the three finger banjoist, the fiddler (with a copy of O'Neil's under their arm) and the guitarist just bursting to play their newest composition CAN'T STAND to wait while the unaccompanied ballad singer delves into the mysteries of "Tam Lin". Hell....it's hard enough to get the "frailer" and the "three finger player" to co-exist! The most integrated Jams/circles that I've been a part of were made up of inexperienced or very 'part-time' players, who were much less likely to complain when wrong chords were played, or bad notes sung. Cheers Rick |
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14 Apr 03 - 10:25 AM (#933117) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: wysiwyg Wow! Quick start to the thread, and good answers. Hm, let me clarify.... the "singers" aren't unaccompanied ballad singers. They either play an instrument or don't, but their orientation is a singable and playable song. Or they are older adults who just want to sing along with whatever words are put in front of them. I'm happy when they come-- but I am talking more about the guitar-playing singers who have songs to share and want to learn others' songs as well. The reason IMO that people are not going to give up books, binders, or songsheets is that very few of the participants care enough about music, in between the monthly get-togethers, to make time to work on their music. Not just skills work, but listening to and learning material they're passionate about sharing-- I think they feel like it should all happen at the meeting, and if it were happening better, I think maybe some of them WOULD get passionate about learning songs they've heard there. This is a sparse, rural community-- we have to work with what we got, and that's what we got. ~Susan |
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14 Apr 03 - 10:35 AM (#933127) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: John Hardly My group meets twice monthly as a fiddle tune jam. I wouldn't have it any other way but I've almost always got 2-5 lingerers who will hang around for a few hours after the jam just to have the chance to play some songs that sound great when accompanied by simple instrumentation -- Roseville Fair, The L&N, some Dylan stuff, some gospel stuff, Shady Grove(modal) and other old-timey stuff with words (though there is little, if any, interest in bluegrass material in my group). My group isn't stuffy about the way the fiddle tunes are played (I have been practicing using swing chords as back-up to the fiddle tunes and, rather than being offended at the non-traditional thing I'm doing, they actually smile and seem to appreciate it)....but we wouldn't even consider mixing the jam with songs. Even in a heavily Mennonite community (a tradition well known for choral singing) where we meet there seems to be little interest in choral singing as a social practice (like the fiddle tune jam), though our fiddle tune jam is often bustin' at the seams. |
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14 Apr 03 - 10:42 AM (#933134) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: wysiwyg Yeah, it's about differing genres as much as it is a split between a tune focus and a song focus. We don't have the "stay late" option so maybe we should go to the 2-evening format and encourage some mixing between the two. ~Susan |
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14 Apr 03 - 11:32 AM (#933174) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Pied Piper The song circle, going round the room thing is not for me, I want to play music socially in a way that involves as many people as possible and that means an instrumental session. Most sessions have someone singing at some point, and I enjoy joining in chorus songs and the occasional solo songs, but to get the buzz you need to loose yourself in the music, and for me that means being part of it. Good luck with your sing around and session I hope you come to some accommodation that allows both to flourish. All the best PP |
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14 Apr 03 - 12:15 PM (#933194) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: wysiwyg Thanks PP. What a marvelous, self-aware way to describe it. It describes the effect we get from our jams for those who want that effect-- and it's important for me to keep in mind. ~Susan |
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14 Apr 03 - 12:39 PM (#933218) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Bee-dubya-ell Even though I'm not a big bluegrass fan/player (I started out playing it but quickly developed more of a fondness for Irish, old-time and swing) I must admit that 'grass lends itself to mixed sessions far more easily than most folk genres. 1) A bluegrass "song" can typically be enjoyed as an instrumental piece by the non-singers in the session. Most songs are sung so as to give the pickers a chance to take a break between verses. 2) Conventional bluegrass vocal delivery - the "high lonesome sound" - can carry over a number of instruments. In other genres, it's often hard to hear someone singing over their own guitar. 3) Bluegrass songs tend to be relatively easy to follow. That gives everybody in the session something to do. One of the biggest problems I've seen in song-oriented sessions is singers choosing pieces that nobody else knows and are hard to play intuitively. 4) A large number of bluegrass songs are "standards" that almost everybody knows, so lots of folks get to join in. 5) A number of bluegrass standards have been "covered" by groups like The Grateful Dead and String Cheese Incident so they provide a pleasant common ground between old farts like me and young kids who spend their summers following jam-bands around. (:-) Bruce |
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14 Apr 03 - 12:48 PM (#933227) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Marje In my experience (in England) it's hard to keep both singers and players happy. I'm seen a club where musicians stopped coming because they only got the chance to play a single tune when it was their turn in the circle; I've also seen one where singers were driven away by musicians who wanted to play together and had no patience with solo singers. I go to music sessions, song clubs and mixed sessions, but I'm in a minority. Most people seem to have a clear preference for one or the other.Music sessions with a few songs can work well, but only if people stick mainly to chorus or shanty-type songs, or accompanied songs that everyone can play along to. At festivals in England, there are normally song circles and music sessions at different venues or in different rooms of a bar, which seems to keep everyone happy. So your idea of separate nights for each might be the best solution - those that enjoy both can come to both, and you might get some useful overlap. Mind you, I don't think I could get on with the song-sheet idea. It's not something we do much over here, and I think it would tend to remind people of school or church. Those who are too lazy or forgetful to learn songs do sometimes bring their own crib-sheets, though I think this is best discouraged. I've never heard a really worthwhile version of a song performed by someone reading all the words from a song-sheet. And choruses are more of a shared experience if everyone's not gazing at their own printed sheet. People can soon learn choruses well enough to join in, so there's plenty of chance for participation without a need for printed words. |
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14 Apr 03 - 01:01 PM (#933237) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: wysiwyg I'm really enjoying this discussion, and I hope none of my comments are taken as arguments with what has been said. I value all the viewpoints you are offereing, more than I have probably said. In the US we haev no-songsheet purists, too.... but I think the way people are using songsheets here at our place may be a little different from what many may have experienced-- I wouldn't like what you are describing, either. But when someone we know and trust, who has good musical taste, offers a songsheet, it's a way of saying they recognize that some of our folks are dot-readers, some are ear-learners, some want a copy they can take home and work on further, and so forth. It's a way of making the song portable, so that if one's memory is fuzzy later on they have not lost the tune or the words among all the rest of the stuff they played.... we sure don't pass them around as if one MUST use them. But we do encourage people who have a binder full of treasures to bring a few extra copies of a song or two, so that there are enough to share around. (Now, the person who owns the binder may or may not actually play from it-- at any given time, many of the songs they now know well enough to do from memory, so by now they don't really look at it themselves.) Often, this means that the extra songsheet will go to the best guitar player, so that they can show, via hand position, how the arrangmement goes. Perhaps I also should add that we seem to attract people who have either just started playhing or who have always played at home alone, and have no idea how to jam or how to share things with others. As they are learning how to jam, the songsheet makes an entry point so they can join in easily on those saongs for which we have them. See? As they progress they get braver about not needing them. We don't force that; we honor however they learn or play and praise all the developments we see, including being increasingly able to play by ear and by watching hands... it isn't a crutch they hang onto for very long. ~Susan |
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14 Apr 03 - 01:08 PM (#933243) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Desert Dancer That's an interesting set of observations, Bruce. It's a shame I can't stand bluegrass, because I'm a singer who loves the tunes, too. ;-) It seems that theoretically one could get a similar flavor going with old-time stuff, except that's one of those genres where the tune-folk and song folk are really exceptionally segregated, for some reason. I personally hope that that's a phase in the revival that's fading -- if you look at the history of the tradition and the revival, it's "only" been 30-35 years that the twain have not been meeting... My personal experience has been frustration, so, good luck, Susan. If integration isn't feasibly, sounds like one gathering apiece is what you need. ~ Becky in Tucson |
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14 Apr 03 - 01:24 PM (#933252) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Leadfingers Maidenhead must be one of the few clubs over here where tunes and songs mix well.We are lucky to have a better than average fiddler who plays a wide variety of Scottish Irish and other(even self penned) tunes and is happy for us to join in.As a result other members are not shy to bring their instruments out as well.At the same time the chorus singing is among the best in Southern England. Just goes to show that people with the right attitude CAN make mixed sessions work. |
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14 Apr 03 - 01:28 PM (#933258) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Marje Thanks for the explanation, Susan, I understand a bit better now the way your song circles work. I think one big difference is that guitars seem to be used much more for communal singing in the US than in the UK. Over here, song circles are mostly unaccompanied, or if there's an instrument it's just as likely to be some sort of squeezebox, or a fiddle, or a mandolin. So there really isn't a habit of sharing song accompaniments. And in most cases the accompaniment a personal one, designed to accompany a solo performance. At music sessions, there are occasional songs that are accompanied, but there's not much attempt to co-ordinate the accompaniment, any more than there is with the tunes. Words and tunes do get passed around and shared sometimes, but usually after the session or in the breaks, not as part of the singing. People also bring tape-recorders or mini-discs along sometimes too - I don't mind this but I prefer not to see them! |
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14 Apr 03 - 01:37 PM (#933268) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: McGrath of Harlow I get the impression there's a definite difference about songsheets on the two sides of the Atlantic. It's common enough for a singer to stick a sheet with the words down on the table, or open up a folder - but handing round the words to other people is pretty well unheard of. (I mean before singing - if someone wants the words after it's common enough for people to have a spare copy to hand on.) Maybe it's a question of what makes people feel embarrassed - having the words in front of you is embarrassing here. Maybe it's the other way round over there. (I'm reminded of what seems to be a simlar difference about closing your eyes while singing - Americans seem to see that as a bit unnatural, and done for effect, whereas here it's keeping them open that tends to feel like it's done for effect.) People seem to enjoy picking up a chorus even of an unfamiliar song. And singing along with the verses is a bit frowned on, though it happens with well known songs. Most sessions tend to have an emphasis one way or the other - they'll be tune sessions with the odd song, or singarounds with a tune now and then. The idea of running two seoparate sessions makes a lot of sense. Maybe you could have them so that, in the song ones, there's a break half way through for a jam, and the other way round for the tune sessions. |
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14 Apr 03 - 03:57 PM (#933382) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Ebbie At my weekly song circle/jam, we have a pretty good mix, I think. At some point someone will say, How about a fiddle tune? or, It's time for a couple of songs! So it keeps alternating all night. The ratio is definitely in favor of song, but of course the instrumentalists get to play then too, because a lot of breaks are inserted in most of the songs. Of course, since I do both singing and playing, maybe I'm just not aware of other people's frustrations with the format but I think we're all pretty happy with it. I do have a couple of friends who love to sing but don't play any instruments- they tend not to attend the Friday night sessions although they have a standing invitation. About once a month on a Saturday night we have a singing night where we have a smaller group with slightly different attendees, which too is great fun. We use the song circle format mostly, but often we ask an individual in the circle to do a second song or even a third on occasion, when we are particularly moved, or when s/he has written a couple of new songs. It's a fluid mix- sometimes when someone has brought along someone who is in town on tour or when a new player/singer drifts in, we abandon the song circle format almost entirely for the night, and just bask. We all seem fairly addicted to our Friday nights. |
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14 Apr 03 - 06:18 PM (#933460) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: GUEST,Russ I do music with many different "communities" of musicians in my area. Mostly tunes and songs from the southern mountains of the US. Mostly at private parties in the winter and campground jams at festivals in the summer. For the hardest of the "hard core" old time musicians, the twain rarely meet. If you want to sing at a party attended predominantly by such, the standard procedure is for someone to secure a location, preferably sonically isolated to some extent, and then pass the word that the singers should gather at that location. There might be several tune jams at such an event, but only rarely more than one song jam. That's not to say that there are never any songs done in the tune jams. It's just that they are the occasional exception. Song junkies (like me) will spend all their time in the song jam, while those with more modest singing needs will come and go. As we move away from the hard core old time end of the spectrum and towards the "folkie" end things change a bit. People who are not as obsessed with old time music seem to be more willing to mix their metaphors in a jam. At gatherings of these types there's more likely to be a single jam where songs and tunes share more or less equal billing. |
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14 Apr 03 - 08:02 PM (#933541) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Murray MacLeod I don't think that it is possible to generalize about transatlantic preferences. I would agree with Kevin that there is a preponderance of singers in US singarounds who are incapable of functioning without a copy of "Rise Up Singing " in front of them, but hey, it works for them. I have to admit I cringed when I first saw this (I was brought up in the "memorize it first" school) but I soon got used to it. The one thing that everybody always skirts around delicately when discussing these matters is the unavoidable fact that some performers are simply much, much better than other performers, and that when the better performers are playing, it is intensely irritating to have to sit and listen to a novice attempting to strum along, wrong chords et al. This is not being elitist, it is being realistic. Learning when NOT to play is as essential a skill as learning WHERE e and WHAT to play. These remarks apply only to singarounds of course, not to tune sessions. Murray |
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14 Apr 03 - 10:09 PM (#933596) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: NicoleC Hmmm. Very interesting comments. My very small and as-yet-uncoordinated jam sessions are a mix of both, I guess. I suppose that backs up Rick's point. We just wing it, and if someone breaks into song, that's cool. Of course, we don't have any dedicated singers -- everyone (er, all 3 of us) is predominantly a player; none of use are afraid to sing and we can all carry a tune. I should point out that the other two guys are very talented and way more experienced than I, but have never bought into the cookie cutter jam mentality, for which I'm thankful. I guess we are predominantly bluegrass, but all have other interests, too, so it stays very casual and eclectic. Which I like a lot, and I hope we can keep it that way. There's a reason none of us want to go to the weekly bluegrass jam in town... if you don't play it THEIR way, it's WRONG; they've become so entrenched in what everyone does at the jam session. |
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15 Apr 03 - 02:38 AM (#933722) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Ebbie There are about 15 people who come here weekly. Depending on who is singing, the music ranges from bluegrass to Goodman/Prine/Newman/Silverstein to Burl Ives to Dickens/Hawker to Buddy Tabor to Staines to Old Timey to standards and back again... We start playing about 8:00 and end at around midnight. |
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15 Apr 03 - 10:47 AM (#933958) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Frankham In Los Angeles, about in 1960-70's there was a group called Songmakers. They met in people's homes throughout the city. They had a format in which a person would lead a song and then sing a song solo. Some of the songs lead were instrumentals or included instrumentals. |
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15 Apr 03 - 11:57 AM (#933988) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: McGrath of Harlow A lot more people aree able to sing a song well enough than are able to play an accompaniment when someone else is singing a song which makes the song come across better. And that includes people who are pretty good musicians when it comes to playing tunes. |
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15 Apr 03 - 12:13 PM (#934005) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: greg stephens Interesting, the various comments about song-sheets. I can see their social function in a church,but at any sort of music/song session that I go to, I'd think they'd be a disaster. Yes, sure if Joe Bloggs has brought along the words to his new song in case his memory needs jogging; but giving them out to everybody? No thanks. Songs v tunes and jamming along: it's a rare session where tunes and songs happily co-exist. That's where I'm happiest, but it's difficult to keep that working, because good sessions inevitably attract new people, and some of these will always be people who arent temperamentally able to fit into an "anything goes" environment, and they will start bending proceedings to their tastes. Best thing then is to move along and start a new one, but this isnt easy(or desirable) if the session was something you started in your local. Jamming along: Marje's comments are very true, it seems to me. If people are doing songs that go G C D7 G, as is probably more likely in an American session, the process probably works, and can readily accommodate extra guitars, fiddles, mandolines etc. This is by no means the case if you're somewhere in england where people are trying out their latest Martin Carthy/Nic Jones licks. Best let them get on with it, unless you're a very fluent sympathetic musician with a brilliant ear...in which case you'll probably let them get on with it anyway! And a final point: if the technical quality of a person's performance is relevant to whether they should be performing or not, I doubt if it's the kind of session I'd want to go to. I love it when Uncle Bob always sings "I'll take you home again, Kathleen", even though he's crap. |
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15 Apr 03 - 12:27 PM (#934016) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: wysiwyg Love all these comments. I am noticing that things are very different US/UK, trad/American folkscare, oldtime/bluegrass, and so on.... would also have to say that whatever we are forming here in our rural county, it's different from most of what I think is the norm in the rest of the US. It's evolving to fit the area and the people in it, is about all I really know. :~) Update-- We've come up with some motivation to get the songs going again among core members, and maybe they'll get excited enough to tell other people about it. Our band (The Good News-Goodtime Band) originally started out as a singalong group-- we played, and we went out and around to people who wanted to sing. Songs were about 2/3 folkstuff and 1/3 gospelstuff. We slowly attracted other people who like to play and/or play & sing. Then (some years ago now) we got a regular weekly church gig, so what we knew in common tipped to 99% gospel. Our jams got more and more instrumental, sort of for respite from that, so we attracted people who liked fiddle tunes. That was at about the time we started to advertise our jam. We called it a jam, not a song circle, and there ya go. SO-- we have a gig at the end of August that is IN a church, but FOR community outreach during the town festival. Hm! Time for the renewal of the singalong folkstuff! We are much better musicians now, especially from working out all the fiddle tunes. So we will poll the band members on what songs to work up for that gig, and this will create a motivation to share/preview some of them on jam night. ~S~ |
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15 Apr 03 - 01:03 PM (#934035) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: wysiwyg PS, with such a large house and two porches at our disposal, we will continue the fiddling on the same night as well, and just break up into groups as needed depending who shows up and what they want to do. We're also going to take our campfire/folk songs to the local parks for the summer weeknights (once a week), to practice them and hopefully attract passers-by to sing with us and pass the word about our other activities.... ~Susan |
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15 Apr 03 - 01:05 PM (#934036) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Rick Fielding I thought those Porches were FORDS! Ricky |
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15 Apr 03 - 01:55 PM (#934063) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: wysiwyg :~) I'll put a sign on the front porch saying "my other jam is a Ford" and see if anyone gets it. ~Susan |
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15 Apr 03 - 03:23 PM (#934127) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: GUEST,Kit On the song-sheet debate: my 'singing partner' and I sometimes reackon we'd make one good singer between the pair of us - I can learn words without half trying, but get lost on the tune; she's the other way round. We do have a songbook to refresh our memories; she'll look down if she needs to, but I never got the hang of singing and reading at once - and besides, I need to watch her to be sure we stay in time. It seems to work all right... Kit |
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15 Apr 03 - 05:53 PM (#934243) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Rick Fielding They wont. But do it anyway. R |
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15 Apr 03 - 07:31 PM (#934330) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Bill D we are all wired differently, huh? Some of it is cultural/habitual overlay, but some is just different 'needs'. Immersing one's self in stories and images set to music as songs is totally different from the almost Zen experience of playing **tunes** with a group. The pace and 'rules' are very far apart, and although there are folks who can do either, it is, as has been said, hard to mix 'em. I prefer songs, whether accompanied or not, and can barely comprehend just repeating one set of notes over & over....though I suppose it simply 'feels' good as the brain and muscles get into a sync and blots out everything else. I can compare it to "blast 'em" video games, versus "strategy" games, where you stop and think about what to do next...I guess my soul wants to slow down and contemnplate rather than just react. I suppose it's good that we don't all do it exactly the sane. |
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16 Apr 03 - 09:33 AM (#934688) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Mr Red I often hear "musicians" say they go cold if they have to stoip for long so they tend to be at the "ensemble" end of the spectrum. There are a lot of singers who don't play or only to accompany themselves so they are the "solo" group (??). As a lister of venues I think in terms of the two ends of that continuum and see a less populous middle ground - even for people who frequent either who but tend to want their night in one of the 2 end "boxes". As long as the people come in sufficient numbers and it is enjoyed by them the only problem is what you call or describe the "do" as - because that will attract people of that preferrence. |
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16 Apr 03 - 09:43 AM (#934694) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Uncle_DaveO I'm in that solo group you mentioned. I have almost no interest in playing with other instrumentalists, but I never feel so alive as when I'm singing for others--in audience sizes one up to whatever. Dave Oesterreich |
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16 Apr 03 - 10:07 AM (#934709) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: wysiwyg Bill-- "I suppose it's good we don't all do it exactly the sane." Totally agree, with the sentiment as well as the typo. (hi Bill) I don't think we've ever (as group leaders but also as regards the group itself) had too much trouble knowing when someone wants to perform their turn solo or wants to involve the group in playing and/or singing.... there's spontaneously been plenty of room for each, and anything in between. Either we're good leaders or we have a special group, or both, I guess. The posts talking about genre differences and about the buzz of jamming on a fiddle tune till the groove appears-- these have been the most helpful to our particular situation. The rest of the posts are giving me a lot to keep in mind as things continue to evolve. I'm really excited now about what is evolving, now that I can SEE it. :~) And that means I'm inspired to encourage it in that direction-- you know, to ride the horse in the way that it is going. That also means I have the gut-level understanding now to market it effectively and spontaneously. Thanks all for all your thoughts-- keep 'em coming! ~Susan |
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16 Apr 03 - 10:43 AM (#934739) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: GUEST,John Barden I'm really no fan of singarounds. Not to say they aren't good - for they are, but for my money a jam session where people are playing, singing, telling stories or reading poems in a fun and lightly organised way (i.e. gentle guidance)is the place to be. What matter if people have song sheets, why some people even have music! The joy of music, be it by voice or instrument, the play of language in a poem and the joining in is what's most important to me. So, try not to split it if you can. |
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16 Apr 03 - 11:34 AM (#934774) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Gypsy I agree with John! In our session, we have vocal, and instrumental pieces. And some people memorize, others use sheets. What difference does it make? I have noticed that as the evening gets late, the predominate singers switch to instrumental, and the predominate melody players tend to switch to songs.....gives everyone a break and some variety. Of course, you have to be pretty ridgid about the "take a turn in the circle rule." But that works for us. |
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16 Apr 03 - 11:36 AM (#934775) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: curmudgeon I've been herding a mixed session for nearly twenty years. Its mostly trad, but newer pieces are not unwelcome if they're good. These sessions work for several reasons. First, some of us have been musically associated for over thirty years, thus lending more understanding of each others musical bent. Second, most of the regular instrumentalists are also singers. Third, the singers usually do songs that invite accompaniment. Fourth, the session is more like a melee with very few set routines or guidelines. The flow is very free, albeit somewhat chaotic. The mix of songs and tunes varies from week to week, often depending on who is or is not there. Some of the regulars are part of a Celtic ensemble. If they have a gig, there tends to be more singing. If a particularly good instrumentalist drops by, the tunes may predominate. Essentially, I try to keep it balanced which is not always easy. Sometimes the shy ones need to be invited to take a lead whether song or tune. If there seems to be too long a stretch of one or the other, I try to shift directions by requesting a specific song or tune. These sessions are far from perfect, but better than none at all. Perhaps some of the Mudcatters who have been to one could chime in with commentary and observation -- Tom |
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16 Apr 03 - 04:44 PM (#934959) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: PoppaGator It's been many years since I partipated in an open acoustic-instrument jam, and in fact I've *never* been in on a regularly-scheduled meeting like so many of you enjoy. My memories of the very loose, one-up jams that I recall from the "sixties" (actually about 66-72) do not include a constant conflict between pickers and singers. I considered myself able to do both, and figured everyone else did too, to different extents. (Now I consider myself a much better singer than instrumentalist, since my guitar playng is limited to a fairly narrow spectrum of styles, while I can sing pretty decently on a lot of stuff I couldn't possibly play.) A very clear memory that just came back to me was a comment from a non-singing instumentalist type, who told me the first time we met (after playing for hours) "I really enjoyed playing with you, because you're willng to keep playing the same thing over for a while; some of these [so-and-so's] wanna sing two-three verses, then stop and start something else just when I'm starting to get into it." (Or words to that effect -- I remember it *fairly* clearly, because he was making such an interesting point, but of course not exact words.) Is that part of the conflict you guys find between players and songsters -- that the singers want to quit and start another tune when the pickers are just starting to groove? A simple solution that I always liked was to alternate singing a verse and playing a verse, or even to have each individual take a verse (one sung followed by *several* played, one each by each instrument that can appropriately solo, before cycling back to a singer for another sung verse). |
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16 Apr 03 - 05:22 PM (#934986) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: curmudgeon The nice thing about most of our songs is that they're usually longer than four verses. But if not, I and some of the others will allow for more instrumental breaks than would be normal. It does help to keep everyone happy almost -- Tom |
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16 Apr 03 - 07:23 PM (#935046) Subject: RE: Is it a Song Circle? Or a Jam? From: Frankham I think it's a good idea to find a way to integrate songs and instrumentals together. It makes for better musicianship in my view. One think about Old Time instrumental music. In the culture it comes from, it's dance music. As of late because of the fiddle contests and festivals, it's become isolated from the dance to it's detriment. Without the element of dance it can be very dry and mechanical. A great fiddler makes you want to dance. This is one of the problems with bluegrass. A great instrumentalist can play backup to a song and take off into an instrumental with lead or backup. The problem is a kind of specialization that you see at sessions. It becomes an exclusive club. A Doc Watson is a good model. He can do it all with no conflict. There must be many musicians also across the Pond who can do this as well. I love it when the Irish musicians float seamlessly between a go song and go into a tune. American players would do well do emulate this. What we are going for in our classes is to introduce the idea that one doesn't have to be limited in their abilities to play, sing, play and sing and fit them all together. Exclusivity is a peculiar phenomenom in the interest pattern of Bluegrass, Old Time or some American seisiun players...(I call them Celtoids because they aren't Irish or Scottish, Welsh, Manx or whatever. From the standpoint of the listener, the non-participant, they would prefer to hear the skilled players or singers in a jam. But this negates the whole idea of what it is...folk music is a social/communal experience. Alan Lomax said that it is the "security blanket" for the sub-culture. Alan Lomax railed against what he considered to be "art song" or European Art Music applied to the performance of folk music. Folk music as show biz misses the whole point. The most important aspect of the music is to bring people in whatever and however possible. As to song sheets, it's best of people memorize. Sometimes you want to sing a song that isn't memorized. If it's sung enough it will be because the motivation is there to do so. I disagree that a song can't be presented effectively unless it's memorized. Actors read poetry from the page and bring it to life. Singers can do it too but it takes familiarity with the material for this to happen. Sometimes a crib sheet helps in as a trigger for the first line of a stanza. It the song is a good one, chances are that the rest of the verse follows naturally because it makes sense. Frank Hamilton |