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17 Apr 03 - 09:44 AM (#935382) Subject: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: ard mhacha Britain`s top policeman Sir John Stevens has concluded after a four year investigation that "the Army and RUC colluded in dozens of murders". This is not news to the Catholic population of the six northern counties, and it is far from giving satisfaction to the family of murdered Solicitor Pat Finucane, who did not coperate with Stevens, the Finucanes want a public enquiry. Ard Mhacha. |
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17 Apr 03 - 10:32 AM (#935423) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: McGrath of Harlow But of course you can guarantee that there'll be a nice little firebreak between the killers and their immediate controls and the higher-ups, especially the politicians. My belief is that the people at the top should always carry full moral and legal liability for whatever the people below them get up to - there should be no possibility of escaping blame on the grounds that they never asked and noone told them. But I can't see that happening in a hurry. There's some black humour in this - from today's earlier Guardian story: The reality was brought home when the inquiry's officers arrested more than 100 people and found that the majority of them were agents of or informers for either the police or the army. Here is the later story from the Guardian website, after the report was actually published - :Security forces aided Ulster murders An interesting example of how different countries operate - the British felt it necessary to keep this kind of thing under wraps and pretend it wasn't happening. Meanwhile in Israel it's all official policy. And in America they seem to have a sort of in-between system. Either way, its state terrorism. I wonder if Brian Nelson, the agent who gets the spotlight in this, and who was supposed to have died of a "brain haemorrhage" a couple of days ago, was actually smuggled off to some safe hideaway, or was he liquidated by his former colleagues to ensure his silence? I'd put my money on the latter. |
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17 Apr 03 - 11:38 AM (#935484) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: GUEST,Mikey joe not related to incidents in NI. but the film injustice is very very much worth a look! Mj |
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17 Apr 03 - 12:50 PM (#935548) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: ard mhacha McGrath, the so called natural death of Army Agent Brian Nelson was viewed here with the usual cynicism by the nationalists. Collusion between loyalist and the RUC has been ongoing, from the the six county state came into being in 1922. Ard Mhacha. |
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17 Apr 03 - 07:29 PM (#935677) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: InOBU Oh well, I saw the BBC report today, no news to us, as you said, sad how we were villianised, even here on Mudcat, for sayint just that, and now, "Oh yes, we were very bad,... bad bad bad, mustn't happen again, " until they do it, deny it, say it didn't happen until it is safe to say it did. Seeing Pat Finucaine's son, just asking for simple justice for his dad, a man of great sense of justice, who was an advocate for the loyalists as well as the republicans, and is still referred to as a republican lawyer by the BBC, he was a lawyer, just that, and that is so much to call someone. Oh well, Larry |
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17 Apr 03 - 07:31 PM (#935678) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: Gareth Gee - isn't that amazing - of all the 4000(?) murders in Ulster since 1968 only the British Government is guilty. Can we know have an independant enquiry into the activities of the IRA ? The difference is the British Goverenment was prepared to investigate these matters. Gareth |
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17 Apr 03 - 07:44 PM (#935692) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: McGrath of Harlow Being a Government has certain benefits, so it should carry certain obligations as well. Such as keeping within the law. |
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17 Apr 03 - 08:18 PM (#935711) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: Noreen Gareth, you think this behaviour is defensible? You believe the Government knew nothing about this until it became prepared to investigate these matters?? Saying that other evil things have gone on makes this particular evil somehow better? |
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17 Apr 03 - 08:31 PM (#935716) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: GUEST I don't understand Gareth's arguements. He seems to like to throw in red herrings rather than face truth. What gave him reason to say "of all the 4000(?) murders in Ulster since 1968 only the British Government is guilty." here? I can find no suggestion of that in posts made by others here. It seems consistant with and as "logical" as his attempts to portray those against the Iraq conflict as supporters of Saddam. |
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17 Apr 03 - 09:53 PM (#935750) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: Jimmy C It comes as no surprise to me, sure haven't I and many others being saying that for years. This is/was an evil regime, since the get-go, and consecutive british governments stood by and and did nothing. The publication of the Steven's Report won't change a thing. They are still a bunch of evil, racists bigots and hypocrites. |
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18 Apr 03 - 05:35 AM (#935853) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha When in 1985, Head Constable John Stalker sent over to investigate the "shoot to kill" activites of the RUC, got too close to the truth, his police career came to an abrupt end, when through the intervention of the Government he was accused of being in league with a corrupt Manchester businessman. This was later proved wrong, too late for Stalker and the families of the victims. Stevens in his report states "that he was obstructed in his investigations by the RUC and the Army", resulting in his investigation office being burned to the ground by the dirty tricks department of the Security Forces. Ard Mhacha. |
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18 Apr 03 - 06:28 AM (#935866) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: McGrath of Harlow "...he was accused of being in league with a corrupt Manchester businessman." Actually it was even more bent than that. The business man involved, Kevin Taylor wasn't corrupt - he was framed as well as part ofvteh effort to get John Stalker. Here is a summary of this side of it from a BBC page about all this: Kevin Taylor was subjected to a four-year police investigation that contributed to his eventual bankruptcy. He was acquitted on a minor fraud charge. Mr Taylor sued the Manchester Police for alleged malicious prosecution and accepted an out of court settlement of more than £1m. |
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18 Apr 03 - 06:46 AM (#935868) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: Gareth No red herring - an attempt to bring objectivity ib to this argument. As previously stated why is it that there are ellements who feel that the British Government is the only guilty party in Ulster ? And no I don't approve of these actions, a point which the BBC picked out of the report was that this campaign hindered any attempts at conciliation. If there is on criticism that I would make of Callghan's Government in 1968 it was that Stormont (the Northern Ireland Parliament) was not abolished then, and the RUC reformed. But then thats hindsight. Gareth |
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18 Apr 03 - 07:15 AM (#935870) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: McGrath of Harlow It's only really fair to bring in the "hindsight" excuse in cases when nobody could have been expected to know better at the time. There were plenty of people back in 1968 saying Stormont should be abolished. It seems to me that when people suggest that the Government (just about any Government) is up to dirty tricks, such as murder, it's dismissed as being just "conspiracy theories". But later on, when it turns out it was true all along, the failure to do anything about it earlier is brushed off with the "hindsight" excuse. |
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18 Apr 03 - 08:07 AM (#935879) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: InOBU Gareth: There is never only one guilty party. HOWEVER, if you were not emotionaly tied to your nation in the way most religious people are tied to their faith, you may see that the occupying colonial nation has certain responcibilities as a catalist. The war in Ireland, as I have said for years was a method for keeping NATO in a non-alined nations soil, this is why the solution began to present itself the year the soviet union broke up and Ireland allowed NATO to use bases for the first gulf war, this too will some day out, we have been saying that since the 70s and ... I have to run, I will get back to this... Larry |
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18 Apr 03 - 08:40 AM (#935890) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: ard mhacha McGrath, And I should have added this investigation has been going on for the past 14 years not 4. Lest we forget, these murders are being carried out by those in authority, aided and abetted by the elected repesentitives, and none of those will be brought to justice. Ard Mhacha. |
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18 Apr 03 - 09:46 AM (#935932) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: Den Gareth, if you can't see the difference between the British activities as you call them and the IRA. I'll point it out to you. Members of the IRA were tried by British diplock courts and were consequently locked up in British prisons for their activities. The politicians and high ranking officials in the British army and RUC never were and never will be. |
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18 Apr 03 - 09:59 AM (#935938) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: Coyote Breath Of course Brian Nelson met with a "bad end", what's new? And what of the murder of Rosemary Nelson? And what of the many other injustices...? I wish that Justice could be served but as long as London loathes the idea of 32 united counties there will be no justice in the North. And unless grassroots, populist politics can triumph, it is unlikely that there will be justice even with a united Ireland. Tiocfaidh ar la (for what it's worth). CB |
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18 Apr 03 - 11:25 AM (#935971) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: Gareth Yes - I can see the difference, British activities are open, belatedly perhaps, to public enquiry. However to assist those whose minds are not entirely closed, herewith the full text of he published report. Click Here It's a PDF file and requires a little time to load. BTW CB - a caution, "populist politics" might equate to :- Republican/Unionist/British Mainland populist politics are equally intolerent of the other point of view and call for enquiry/summary execution. ( Delate as your viewpoint sees fit.) Gareth |
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18 Apr 03 - 01:29 PM (#936043) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: McGrath of Harlow Everybody's activities are open belatedly to public inquiry. that's what history is about. The fact that the records get destroyed and tampered with makes it all a lot harder of course. Most of the time the questions can't be answered beyond a doubt. But the idea that there is some moral distinction between what the people who rule us are willing to do, when push comes to shove, and what the people running terrorist organisations are willing to do, strikes me as pretty hard to sustain. |
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21 Apr 03 - 09:38 PM (#937465) Subject: RE: BS: British Army and Police colluded in murd From: Coyote Breath Sorry Gareth I was referring to the Populist "movement" as witnessed in the USA during the 1920's and 1930's, Bob LaFollet type "stuff". The expressed desire of Republicanism (Irish version, not USA) for a truly democratic state is what I meant by "grassroots". Democracy, is rare these days. Sorry to be late in responding, lots happening! CB |