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24 Apr 03 - 08:30 PM (#939621) Subject: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,Toots I`ve just arrived back from Durham folk club, and a grand night it was. A young lady asked me where she might find the words to the above song. Two of us replied, oh, we,`ve got them at home. I said, look at Mudcat, you can`t fall off, but I`m wrong. Having looked at the lyrics you have, which I have to say are not a million miles out, I`m still appalled at the lack of respect for regional words. If you can`t be bothered to get it right, don`t insult us that try. I`m a member of a well respected group of folk that are trying to maintain our traditions, not diminish them. I`m now concerned that this young woman will learn the version that you have in your database, and think it is from the Tyne, when in fact, the Campbells didn`t quite get it right. I`m agreat follower of Mudcat and admire what you`ve done, but this has shown me that obsevasions of regions, can be so very important. |
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24 Apr 03 - 08:36 PM (#939622) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: dick greenhaus If you have the proper words, please send 'em in. Or post them here. Candle-lighting is oft more productive than darkness-cursing. |
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24 Apr 03 - 09:03 PM (#939634) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: Sorcha Please??? Pretty Please? Pretty Please with a cherry on top? Thanks! |
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24 Apr 03 - 10:08 PM (#939663) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: masato sakurai Info from folktrax: WATERS OF TYNE, THE -- WATER OF TYNEThe lyrics and music are: THE WATER OF TYNE (with chords) Waters of Tyne (lyrics) Waters of Tyne (tune; pdf.file) |
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25 Apr 03 - 03:50 AM (#939759) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: nutty Toots ... I am a Mudcatter ...... I also come from your region and I am appalled by your lack of courtesey to the people who are spending an awful lot of time putting such a resource as this together. This is a volunteer project not a paid lyrics site and it is accepted that mistakes do happen. When a different set of words are submitted, Dick and Susan add them to the DT but it does take time. Indeed, I think that Dick has been very generous with his comments above, given the tone of your posting I certainly would not have been. Mudcat is a global site .... it is a pooling of resources and information ... it is also a complex site that needs to be understood to be used properly. Had you put "Waters of Tyne" into "Lyrics and Knowledge search" at the top of the page, you would have seen that a correct Tyneside version had already been posted by Masato in Feb 2002. see here |
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25 Apr 03 - 04:03 AM (#939763) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: Stewie Nutty, well said. I also found Toots' comments to be unnecessarily churlish. --Stewie. |
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25 Apr 03 - 04:14 AM (#939766) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,Toots Sorry Nutty but if you1d read what I said I did praise mudcat, to the hilt, you do a grand job, all I`m saying is, if you`re gonna write it down, and that can only be a good thing, then write it in the way it was written. If Ian Campbell chose to sing a song about the Tyne in his way of speaking, that`s fine, just don`t write it down like that, or the regional tradition will become lost, and thanks to Masato for producing the words. And in response to the other person. I find mudcat a great source, of info., and entertainment, when unable to sleep. Some of us are not as lucky as you |
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25 Apr 03 - 06:16 AM (#939803) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: nutty Toots .....if you were a member we could continue this via personal message .. but sadly you have not seen fit to join...... I agree that in the case of this song, there is a definitive version and that it should have its place in the DT (which it will when Dick and Susan have time) but as is the way of the oral tradition, other versions have appeared over the years. There has been much discussion on Mudcat about this song so I fail to see how you can maintain that a regional tradition will be lost ..... I believe that, by facilitating such discussion, Mudcat and the Digital Tradition are allowing your regional tradition to be understood and appreciated. |
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25 Apr 03 - 12:23 PM (#940023) Subject: Lyr Add: THE WATERS OF TYNE (from Ian Campbell) From: Stewie Just for the record, the text in the DT is not an accurate transcription of the Ian Campbell Folk Group version. The Campbell recording is a solo rendition by Lorna Campbell. I am not absolutely sure when she is singing 'to' or 'tae', but I'll stand by the rest: THE WATERS OF TYNE I canna get tae my love, if I would dee, The waters o' Tyne run between him and me; And here I maun stand, wi' a tear in my e'e, Baith sighin' and sickly, my sweetheart to see. O where is the boatman, my bonny hinny O where is the boatman, o bring him tae me To ferry me o'er the Tyne to my honey, And I will remember the boatman and thee O bring me a boatman, I'll gi'e ony money And you for your troubles rewarded shall be To ferry me o'er the Tyne to my honey, Or scull him across the rough river Source: 'This Is The Ian Campbell Folk Group' reissued on Essential ESM CD-357. The departures from Masato's linked lyrics, which appear to be acceptable to Toots are 6 words: 'canna', 'maun', 'wi'', 'baith', 'gi'e' and 'ony', and 3 of these are not in the DT version that was the basis of her/his curmudgeonly swipe at the DT. Perhaps Lorna Campbell was guilty of even greater regional desecration than Toots suspected. --Stewie. |
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25 Apr 03 - 12:34 PM (#940031) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: Stewie The last line of the transcription in the previous post should have read: 'Or scull him across the rough river to me'. I meant also to say that, regionally incorrect or whatever, Lorna Campbell's rendition is lovely indeed. --Stewie. |
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25 Apr 03 - 02:08 PM (#940100) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: TheBigPinkLad I too am from the North East of England. Toots, your observation touches on the essence of what constitutes the most narrow definition of folk music: music altered by its very use. Once written down it becomes static and no longer qualifies as 'definitive' folk. Allowed the freedom of interpretation it lives on and grows so that you can have co-existing the Sting/Jimmy Nail version that uses "my bonny hinny" right alongside the Owen Brannigan version that uses "ma bonny hinny." In anticipation of folk-definition guardians, asbestos undies already donned. |
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25 Apr 03 - 06:19 PM (#940285) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,skippy best version (subjective) is without a doubt - Bob Fox! |
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25 Apr 03 - 09:36 PM (#940428) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,Distendo And Bob Fox comes from not too far South of the real place... |
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27 Nov 03 - 02:44 PM (#1062137) Subject: Tune Req: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,J. Saxon In the movie "The Harrogate Secret", can anyone tell me who the female singer is of the song "The waters of Tyne" at the end? Would really like to know. |
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27 Nov 03 - 06:39 PM (#1062239) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: greg stephens Intriguing argument. GUEST Toots says it should should only be written down in the way it was written. Well, that's a point of view. So, who wrote it, how did they spell it, and did they have a Tyneside accent? |
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28 Nov 03 - 01:20 AM (#1062358) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: Seamus Kennedy Toots appears to be a folkie-fundamentalist, so there's no point in trying to argue/change her/his mind. I still love Lorna's version. Seamus |
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27 Feb 06 - 08:16 AM (#1680150) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,Santa Just a query: when did "Water of Tyne" become "Waters of Tyne", or are both versions found in the oldest texts? This is perhaps more a linguistic/historical question than a folk music one, but to my ear "Water of Tyne" sounds archaic; we don't use the word "water" for "river" nowadays. Going with this is the use of "scull" rather than "row". It seems (to me) to be more appropriate to an age when perhaps it made an important distinction. Nowadays sculls are boats for a particular competition rather than everyday use - as much as rowing is an everyday activity nowadays. Yes, I know this is a very small variant, and it doesn't really matter to the singing of this lovely song. However Meg is currently learning "Water of Tyne" from a Sandra Kerr arrangement, and it snagged on my ear. I'm sure Sandra wouldn't have added any deliberate archaism, so this must be an old variant. Which could perhaps lead to discussions on the correctness of dated versions, but I'm not arguing that either is "right". |
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27 Feb 06 - 08:29 AM (#1680160) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: Carol Funny but I was at Durham Folk club last Thursday and would appreciate the original lyrics myself although I wasn't the lady that asked for them. I think the lyrics that I know are the ones on the Stingthing. however to get back to the subject I thought and am often told that the way that words and tunes change slightly is part of the 'folk process' and personally i do accept that but what does annoy me at times is when people can't be bothered to go back to the source for lyrics by Keith Marsden, Graeme Miles etc. 'cos if I'd written any of those great songs I really would like the words to stay the same, alright if they're being sung in 100 years time that's another matter!! |
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27 Feb 06 - 09:15 AM (#1680192) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST Lorna Campbell has just 'Scottised' the northumbrian version. |
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27 Feb 06 - 09:22 AM (#1680199) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: shepherdlass Things like this do change with use - look at how many songs turn up in variants at opposite ends of the British Isles. In this case, the Lorna Campbell version has a bit of a Scots lilt to the dialect, while the North Eastern band Prelude did a radio-friendly version with the dialect completely removed, a slightly mid-Atlantic twang, and rhymes changed to accommodate this. Personally, I prefer to hear the version that's been familiar up here (NE England) for decades, and, yes, Bob Fox's recording is about the most gorgeous I've heard too ... but that kind of judgement IS personal. Isn't it wonderful that if the lyric mutates enough you get a whole new song? |
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27 Feb 06 - 12:37 PM (#1680327) Subject: Lyr Add: WATERS OF TYNE From: GUEST,Keith(Pegleg Ferret) This has to be the definitive version. It is from "Songs Of Northern England" By John Stokoe, published in 1893. It is considered to be the extended version of the "Northumbrian Minstrelsy". I Cannot get to my love, if I would dee, The water of Tyne runs between him and me, And here I must stand with a tear in my e'ee, Both sighing and sickly my sweetheart to see. O where is the boatman? my bonny hinny! O where is the boatman? bring him to me, To ferry me over the Tyne to my honey, and I will remember the boatman and thee. O bring me a boatman, I'll give any money, and you for your trouble rewarded shall be, To ferry me over the Tyne to my honey, Or scull him across that rough river to me. Stokoe says in his notes on the song that "The version of the ballad is from John Bell's "Rhymes of The Northern Bards", 1812. The tune is common in Tynedale and Redesdale, and,like many other beautiful old airs, has been seized upon and used by "patterers" and "street singers" until it has nearly passed with their lugubriously pathetic productions into oblivion". Of course I'm sure that no one in Ian McCullock's company at Durham City Folk Club could be accused of that but I'm sure no one would object if you were to sing hinny instead of honey, as seems to be the usual way people sing it currently. |
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27 Feb 06 - 03:00 PM (#1680430) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: Purple Foxx I genuinely cannot remember a time when I didn't love this song so I was delighted to discover that it seems to have originated in Tynedale at not, as I had always assumed, Tyneside. I would far rather this song was only ever sang in RP than endure a world in which it wasn't sung at all. |
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27 Feb 06 - 03:02 PM (#1680433) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: greg stephens A song as strong as this is a thing of joy in whatever accent you like! |
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27 Feb 06 - 03:08 PM (#1680439) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: Shields Folk Sculling a boat means propelling along with a single oar over the transom. Like on a Tyne Foy boat. Proper period touch me thinks. |
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27 Feb 06 - 03:47 PM (#1680469) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: Geordie-Peorgie Aye ! Gan on Shields me canny man!! Dead reet aboot scullin' - Unlike them Scousers - Scullin' means puttin' the heid in! Mind! Aah aalwuz thowt (even when aah wez a bit bairn) it wez 'Waters' (plural) but apparently me and half the geordie nation are wrang an' aall - It IS 'Water' (singular) What a bliddy week this's been - Forst I forgets that Sunderland DID win the FA Cup and now this!! I'll tell yez man! If it torns oot that Tony Blair's just a lyin' little shite........ |
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27 Feb 06 - 05:11 PM (#1680578) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: TheBigPinkLad Why would anyone need a boat to cross the Tyne in either of its dales? You could plodge owa man. Naa, this must be a Tyneside song. |
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27 Feb 06 - 05:23 PM (#1680589) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: Purple Foxx These days yes BigPinkLad (without getting your ankles wet) But check out Douglas Mennear's book "The Mid Tyne Villages of Northumberland." for photographic evidence that it wasn't always thus. |
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27 Feb 06 - 06:04 PM (#1680625) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: TheBigPinkLad You'll have to scan me a few piccies PF, there's no copy in my local library ;o) |
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28 Feb 06 - 03:23 AM (#1680881) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: Purple Foxx Promise to get back to you on this BPL. The above mentioned book also shows the Mickley to Ovington for Ovingham ferry which was still active as late as 1963. Check out also "Tyne & Tide" & "Land of Singing Waters" both written by David Archer.(www.daryanpress.co.uk.) Alternatively some of Thomas Bewick's prints will give an idea of the river as it was at the approximate time of the song's writing. |
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28 Feb 06 - 03:32 AM (#1680885) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: Paul Burke Are there posts missing here? I've read through the thread, and the earliest poster seems to be suggesting that there is a "definitive" version of the somg. But at no point does anyone say what it is, or how it differs from the version in the DT. Now, can someone tell be how an 1893 publication becomes the definitive version of a song first noted in 1812? As for dialect, I suspect that even a conservative one like Geordie has changed quite a bit in 200-ish years. |
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28 Feb 06 - 03:43 AM (#1680889) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: Purple Foxx Fair point Paul.An example - the word "Hinny" was still in common usage round these parts as recently as 20 or 30 years ago but is now increasingly rare. I suspect that prior to enforceable Copyright there would not have been a definitive version of many songs for more than about 5 minutes. |
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28 Feb 06 - 04:56 AM (#1680914) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,Paul Lane Hello, This song is also a favourite of mine, though the version I have on CD is sung by Alex Glasgow an ex Gateshead man, who sadly is no longer with us having passed away in Australia a few years ago. I had the pleasure of meeting him when he was last in the UK launching his latest CD at a quayside theatre in Newcastle. Great song and melody. |
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28 Feb 06 - 08:29 AM (#1680980) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: kendall The folk process at work. Mis heard lyrics can be for the better or worse. It's our choice. For instance, the lyrics I learned from Folk Legacy are...oh sighing and SOBBING my true love to see. Leonard Burnstein said that "classical" music is more accuratly called "Precise) music. It is written by the composer and should be played exactly that way. Folk songs are different. There is room for minor changes. However, you can go too far with that; I'm reminded of Oscar Brand singing sea songs. This is a good example of not knowing what you are talking about. The original lyrics made no sence to him, so he changed them to where they made no sense to ANYONE. Obviously, he has never been to sea. |
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28 Feb 06 - 01:32 PM (#1681345) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: Santa Sandra Kerr's version uses the words as in Stokoe. I think I recall sobbing instead of sickly, too, although it doesn't fit quite as well. As with waters, I think this is something that will sound more normal to a modern singer. |
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28 Feb 06 - 01:36 PM (#1681349) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,Keith(Pegleg Ferret) Yes, Paul Burke, I'll tell you how. If you read Stokoe's notes as I have published them here you will see that he obtained the published version from John Bell's Rhmes Of The Northern Bards which is acknowledged to be among the first collections of songs from Tynedale/Teesdale. I don't know how much more definitive you can get! I'm not suggesting that people MUST sing it the way it is written or even which accent to use, the tradition is far too organic to insist on such things. As long as the song is sung and enjoyed by the singer and the audience then it's fine by me. We in Pegleg Ferret have never been purist in our outlook and, indeed, have taken many liberties with the text, and tune sometimes, when we think it is needed. |
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01 Mar 06 - 03:32 AM (#1681957) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,Paul Burke where's my cookie gone Keith, calm down. "The version of the ballad is from John Bell's "Rhymes of The Northern Bards", 1812. The tune is common in Tynedale and Redesdale, ...has been seized upon and used by "patterers" and "street singers" ... has nearly passed... into oblivion". Apart from the self- contradiction (it's common, but in oblivion), to me that rather makes it clear that he was "improving" what he saw as a corrupt traditional version. In 1812 (or at any time up to the 1920s) it was taken for granted that such improvement (plus bowdlerisation in some cases) was necessary to recover the "true" song from the corruptions of the folk process. Just look at Scott et al. I'm pretty sure the Dransfields sang "sighing and troubled", which sounds both less melodramatic than sobbing, and less... sickly... than sickly. |
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01 Mar 06 - 06:55 AM (#1682058) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,Keith(Pegleg Ferret) Ah Paul semantics are all....I'm sure Stokoe in saying "common" was referring to the tune and "oblivion" referred to the text. There is no evidence at all to suggest that either Bell or Stokoe "improved" the song, although many did like Scott in his "Musical Museum". Of course they may have but all I meant by "definitive" is that this is the source that revival singers, too numerous to mention, used in the '60's for songs like "Water Of Tyne" and "The Colliers Rant" etc. Anyway all I really intended was to help the person who was looking for the words at the beginning of the thread. As for"sighing and sickly" I agree that the Dransfield's use of "troubled" rather than "sickly" will make more sense to people who do not live in the North East, as the word does have a different meaning in the context of the song. "Heart sick" may be a better way to describe it. Incidentally, I know Robin and Barry well and they, like us, never hesitated in adapting either words or tune if they felt it was required. I remember Robin introducing a song by saying, tongue in cheek, "This song is traditional. I learned it from my brother who got it from a book". |
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01 Mar 06 - 07:09 AM (#1682065) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,DaveS at work It certainly was the word "sickly" when I learned it at school in South Shields in 1959. Hi Keith you all right? |
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01 Mar 06 - 08:23 AM (#1682126) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,Keith(Pegleg Ferret) Hi Dave, I'm great! We're working on the next album at the moment. Working title is "Full Of Springs And Catches" guess where that comes from!!! Mail me on kpferret@blueyonder.co.uk and we'll have a proper natter....preferably when you're not at work eh! |
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01 Mar 06 - 09:33 AM (#1682213) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: nutty If you haven't yet discovered the FARNE Archive I can recommend it although the search engine is not the best and sometimes it takes a while to find things. I knew that 'Water of Tyne' would be in there somewhere and indeed there is an early copy Circa 1812 of the song. So anyone wanting original or fairly original lyrics CLICK HERE |
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01 Mar 06 - 02:44 PM (#1682484) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: TheBigPinkLad That blicky doesn't work, nutty. Try this: http://www.asaplive.com/archive/show_images.asp?id=N0700702&image=1 |
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01 Mar 06 - 02:45 PM (#1682486) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: TheBigPinkLad Sod me. It seems to work after all! |
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28 Aug 07 - 09:49 AM (#2135231) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: Jack Blandiver There's Tynemouth and Cullercoats (A U Hinny Burd); and North Shields for sculler boats (A U A) |
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28 Aug 07 - 09:23 PM (#2135717) Subject: RE: Waters of Tyne From: Scotus I know I'm a bit late, but I don't think Scott had anything to do with with the 'Musical Museum' - unless he was a child prodigy or had his own of course! Jack |
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20 Aug 16 - 03:09 PM (#3805986) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,Bill Bootiman The Waters of Tyne really do exist! they are where the North and South Tyne meet. When the river is flowing heavily, the river becomes very wide and deadly. When this song was written (17th century?), there was still a ferry to take you from one side of the river to the other but in storms, the river was usually far too dangerous for a small boat and because of a number of losses, the ferries just didn't go. Hence the young woman wanting to meet her lover on the other side of the river and trying to find a boatman. The background really is a true story, I guess. |
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05 Jan 17 - 12:23 PM (#3830606) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,Guest Lydia Savage On BBC Radio 4 (12:00 noon weekdays for short seasons) we are hearing about World War 1 on Tyneside and one of the characters sings a verse of this song rather nicely but in an unsteady accent- I am puzzled by the use of "hinny" and "honey" in the lyrics as written down. Is this because a lad would be a honey but a Lass would be a hinny? |
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05 Jan 17 - 02:16 PM (#3830626) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST no- wrong way round, although 'hinny' would be acceptable when applied to a woman or a man, 'honey certainly wouldn't be an acceptable way to address a man unless you want a fat eye. |
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17 Dec 17 - 05:10 AM (#3894288) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,Ron Adams Kathryn Tickell....wonderful. https://soundcloud.com/kathryntickell/kathryn-tickell-friends-1st-track-of-the-album-sung-by-hannah-rickard |
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17 Dec 17 - 05:55 PM (#3894428) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waters of Tyne From: Tootler The Farne Archive has moved since The link was published in 2006. Here is a revised link: Water of Tyne Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST Date: 05 Jan 17 - 02:16 PM no- wrong way round, although 'hinny' would be acceptable when applied to a woman or a man, 'honey certainly wouldn't be an acceptable way to address a man unless you want a fat eye. Looks like usage has changed from 200 years ago as the version in the Farne Archive is: "To ferry me over the Tyne to my honey Or scull him across the rough river to me" (italics mine) In fact that set of words has "honey" throughout. Interesting. |
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19 Dec 17 - 09:00 AM (#3894674) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST link broken but the advice of 5.1.17 still applies- try it next time you're in Newcastle if you don't mind the consequences! |
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20 Dec 17 - 10:55 AM (#3894906) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waters of Tyne From: Tootler Probably a case of search link expiring. I'll see if I can find a more permanent link. I wasn't suggesting you were wrong. I live on Teesside and I go to Newcastle often enough I was simply pointing out that usage changes over time and that those words date from 200 years ago. What is sung today reflects those changes. |
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01 Mar 20 - 06:28 PM (#4037000) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,thezillionthsue I have read this thread with interest, and what nobody seems to have picked up on is the words "if I should dee." Surely it is about the water between the living and the dead, as in the river Styx, or the water in His Dark Materials which takes you via the boatman to the land of the dead. |
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02 Mar 20 - 12:20 PM (#4037128) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST Are howay man, divvent be se daft |
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27 Mar 21 - 11:40 PM (#4099612) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Waters of Tyne From: GUEST,# https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BCSuih7zOY Imogen Bliss – The Water of Tyne |