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BS: What is Anti-Semitism?

26 Apr 03 - 02:53 PM (#940803)
Subject: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

WASHINGTON: A new law being proposed by Republican senators will serve prohibit criticism of Israel on American college campuses....

Illegal Action?

Maybe someone here can help me on this. It's something I've wondered about for a while. If you criticize a Jew, does that make you an anti-semite? Seriously. I think I've missed something in my education.

The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines Semite as:
a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs
b : a descendant of these peoples

So, my question would be, how does criticizing a Jew make you an anti-semite? The definition in the dictionary refers to genetic characteristics...people who could be genetically traced back to ancestors from southwestern Asia. But Sammy Davis Jr. was a Jew. I believe Whoopie Goldberg is a Jew. Wouldn't they be classified as African-American?

Judaism is a BELIEF system, not a genetic characteristic. And sure it's bad to pass judgement on folks because of their condition of birth (skin color, etc.), but what you choose to BELIEVE comes to you voluntarily after you are born, and you need to ANSWER for the actions you perform based on your belief system. So if I want to claim Jews are bad because they did this or that, don't I have the right to?

Many people feel free to pass judgement on fundamentalist Christians (individually and as a group), so if we criticize ONE belief system in the land of free speech and are allowed to do so, how can our laws be warped to protect another belief system?

And I guess that's the crux of my problem in sorting this out. Judaism is a VOLUNTARY BELIEF SYSTEM. You are not born a Jew, so if I were Buddhist and a Jew insulted me and I kicked his ass (fundamentalist Buddhist), how could that whiner expect special treatement under the law? And why would I be accused of hating a whole genetic group of people because of the thoughts someone carries around in his head?

I know the article cited above refers to criticism of Israel, but we have been so brainwashed on the subject of anti-semitism, I think it's time for me to work this out. I don't understand how a voluntary belief system has been merged in the public mind so successfully that now, when you criticize 'a jew', you are automatically assumed to be criticizing millions of others who are of the same 'race'. Judaism is NOT a race. It is a religion voluntarily taken up by people after they are born.

I personally think Judaism is just another religious control system set up in the dim past to take advantage of us, so in saying that, did I just commit an act of anti-semitism? If so, someone will have to tell me why.


26 Apr 03 - 03:04 PM (#940808)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

One of the problems with your reasoning, DG, is that it assumes that all Jews support the extremist, right-wing government in Israel. That is most certainly not the case. Any legislation that curbs free speech with regard to criticizing Israel on college campuses in the US, also curbs the right to free speech for Jews on college campuses in the US who want to criticize the government of Israel.

Ironic, isn't it, that the US waged a first strike war against Iraq so that the Iraqi people could have freedom of speech, while we, here in the US, are having that same right taken away from us.


26 Apr 03 - 03:26 PM (#940823)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Amos

I doubt there is any real substance to the DG's fear here -- I notice the "Balochistan Post" did not actually cite the porposal being discussed. And I suspect that the reason this is so is that the actual language of the proposal is probably less inimical than the Balochistannites -- whoever the hell they are -- would have us believe.

I'm not even going to start on why someone would publish something named like that.... it sounds like a make-believe country to me.

A


26 Apr 03 - 03:28 PM (#940825)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Balochistan is a region of Pakistan, Amos.


26 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM (#940826)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks

According to Webster: antisemitic: 1. having or showing prejudice against Jews; 2. discriminating against or persecuting Jews; 3. of or caused by such prejudice of hostility. Jew: 1. member of the tribe or kingdom of Judah; 2. a person desended, or regarded as descended, from the ancient Hebrews of biblical times; 3. a person whose religion is Judaism.

There is nothing antisemitic about criticising Israel. Criticism is different from discrimination. Besides, Israel has citizens who are practicing Moslems, practicing Christians (of many different sects) and individuals who practice no religion at all. Antisemites historically haven't cared whether or not their targets practiced any religion at all; a significant number of those "Jews" who were murdered by the Nazis were practicing Christians whose crime was having one Jewish grandparent.

I doubt if the article you linked to has any more credibility than others you have shared with us.


26 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM (#940828)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie

I agree that if there is a US law passed prohibiting criticism of Israel and/or its policies, a law that affected funding, that would be cause for great concern. Such a ban would be illegal and immoral and un-American.

However, note that the article says that Santorum is PLANNING to propose such a law. (Actually, the article is less than convincing.) Let's wait.


26 Apr 03 - 03:34 PM (#940829)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Amos

Well, there ya go. My apologies to the world at large -- I should have known that, and I didn't. The things you learn on the Cat!    I thought it was some wise guy on the Net drumming up a clever-sounding website. I think I need a sabbatical, during which I will assiduously learn all the names of regional group identities between Reykjavik and Nome, proceeding easterly.



A


26 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM (#940837)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

Well, if you go HERE and type in 'semite', you get the definition I quoted. And my point is, a semite is someone from a particular geographic region of the world. A Jew is someone who takes up a religion after being born ANYWHERE in the world. So, how does criticizing a Jew make you an 'anti-semite'? Sure our dictionaries have been warped to blur the label into a very, very bad thing, but criticizing a Jew does not make you a racist any more than criticizing a Baptist or Catholic does.

THAT is my problem with the label, I just realized. 'Anti-Semite' has come to mean 'racist', and that's nonsense. Or so I think. Once again I beg for enlightenment.

And GWBush has already praised Santorum as being 'inclusive' for propsing this.


26 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM (#940838)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Raedwulf

The short & simple answer, DG (what ever happened to the doomsaying, BTW? The Bush concentration camps, the self-inflicted 'terrorist' incidents, et al? They never occured?! Oh dear...), is that 'Semite' & 'Jew' have become synonymous.

Yes, Semite covers a far larger racial & genetic grouping than merely Jews, but the popular perception (which media everywhere do nothing to dispel) is that Semitic = Jewish.

The biggest obstacle to any redefinition or criticism is, of course, Nazism & the Holocaust. I've always found it rather ironic that the hotbed of instability, hatred & violence for the last 40 years or so has been the Mid-East, where most of the racial groupings are Semitic! But they've got a 5000 year history of not getting on, & humanity seems to to be still stuck at a 5 year old mentality with regard to social development. On the visible evidence, Israel remains one of the most right-wing fascist states in the world, & has been for several decades.

I can only surmise that this is another piece of evidence that god likes a laugh as much as anyone else! The Mid-East would get a lot less complicated if Mr "I hate Tyranny, Terrorism & Oppression" Bush would withdraw support from Israel. There'd be a whole lot less 'occupied territories', & a whole lot less Intifada if he did. I don't expect it to happen (& no, it wouldn't solve all the problems if it did, but Bloody Hell! would it pull the rug out from underneath the militant Arab/Islamists if it did! Sadly Dubya hasn't the brains or balls to make it happen, but I can wish...).


26 Apr 03 - 03:45 PM (#940841)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie

LOL - Please post the names as you learn them, Amos. Sounds like a BIG job so you might as well share the largesse.


26 Apr 03 - 03:46 PM (#940842)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Raedwulf

DG - One error: Judaism is not a proselytising faith. If you are a Judaist, you are almost certainly genetically Jewish. The Jews have never sought converts!


26 Apr 03 - 03:47 PM (#940843)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks

Go to the same site and type in "anti-semite."


26 Apr 03 - 03:58 PM (#940850)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

I'd do some more dictionary searches later, but sure...everything's been blurred, in history and dictionaries and word-of-mouth. Anti-Jew = racist. And that's ridiculous. Even if you ARE born into a Jewish family, when you reach 15 or so you can make a choice. If you continue with the religion, it's no longer a matter of birth...you've CHOSEN to believe the stuff.

I couldn't find a Jew on a full tank of gas where I live, and I was raised to not discuss 'religion and politics'. Lots of talk about the weather, but not much else. And this is the kind of thing it leads to...a religion being equated with a race in a country passing laws against racial crimes. Come on...that's just not legitimate.

Jews have to answer for their beliefs just like everyone else, and hiding behind a 'racial' label is phony. Or so it seems.

And Raedwulf's observation about the Holocaust seems very pertinent. Maybe the over-sensitivity to 'anti-semitism' is an outgrowth of the relatively recent mistreatment of Jews in Germany. But then Arabs are semites according to the dictionary, so why are Americans beating them to death at Guantanamo?

You can't ride two horses with one ass (Woody Allen line...a Jew), and what applies to one applies to all. I just get distressed when my first Amendment is violated on a bogus pretext. If I want to criticize a Jew, I should be able to without being labelled anti-semite.

And I'll get back to that apocalyptic stuff. It's there in abundance if you look around. Man o man is it there.


26 Apr 03 - 04:01 PM (#940852)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie

"Anti-Jew = racist."? Yes, Dreaded Guest, that is racist.


26 Apr 03 - 04:01 PM (#940853)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Bev and Jerry

DG:

Criticizing a Jew does not make one an anti-semite. Criticizing Judaism does not make one an anti-semite. Criticizing Jews as a group does make one an anti-semite. You can substitute the appropriate words for Jew and anti-semite and this holds true for any group of individuals.

Anti-semitism, however, connotes a lot more than mere criticism. It includes such acts as not allowing Jews to live in certain areas, stay in certain hotels or join certain organizations. It includes hate literature or speech against Jews as a group. And it can even include the murder of people simply because they are Jews. Here again, you can make the appropriate substitutions and apply it to any group of individuals.

Criticizing Israel or its government has nothing to do with anti-semitism unless that criticism is directed at the country or its government simply because it is Jewish.

Bev and Jerry


26 Apr 03 - 04:04 PM (#940855)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Bev and Jerry

And by the way, English is a very strange language. Anti-semite does not mean against semites. Compare the definition of semite you posted with the definition of anti-semite posted by artbrooks. It's kind of like flammable and inflammable.

Bev and Jerry


26 Apr 03 - 04:34 PM (#940868)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Amos, with Google, everyone can be Superman ;-)


26 Apr 03 - 04:49 PM (#940881)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

"It's kind of like flammable and inflammable."

Hardly so. "Flammable" and "inflammable" mean exactly the same thing. Whatever they might mean, "semitic" and "anti-semitic" do not mean the same thing.


26 Apr 03 - 05:13 PM (#940894)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Not the Dreaded Guest

This thread started because Draeded Guest found some newspaper, supposedly in Pakistan, running a phony story about Rep. Rick Santorum.

It's a big fat libelous lie!

Search the Internet and you can find this story on a bunch of far-right anti-Semitic and racist websites. You can also find it on Islamist, and Arab anti-Israel websites.

Thing is, though, you won't find the story on the website of any reputable news organization, left, center or right. You won't find anything about it on Rick Santorum's own website. That's because it's all a lie, made up by some anti-Semite and passed around by others of that bent.

Just because you can provide a link to something on the Internet, does not mean it has a grain of truth to it.


26 Apr 03 - 05:16 PM (#940895)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker

McGrath-That's not what was meant. It's simply an example of the ways in which our language no longer makes sense in context with its roots.

DG-You can criticize A Jew, based on personal matters, and only an idiot will call you an anti-Semite. If, however, you criticize a group of Jews, or even an individual Jew, on the basis of their Judaism, that does make you an anti-semite. The reason why anti-Semitism is considered racism is that most anti-Semites consider Jews a racial group.


26 Apr 03 - 06:48 PM (#940926)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Strupag

And here was me always believing that Balochistan was a village near Glencoe!


26 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM (#940943)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Metchosin

Forum Lurker, I think inflammable and flammable are still synonymous in the UK, hence McGrath's (misunderstanding the intent?) unlike in North America, where, due to the decline in literacy, the average person was judged too thick to understand that "inflamable" printed on a gas tanker truck, might mean it could be ignited.

Hence, in Canada at least, the word "inflamable" was dropped in that instance, in preference to "flammable".


26 Apr 03 - 07:22 PM (#940961)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Gareth

Actually I rthought "anti-sematic" was an insult thrown when people start losing the logical agrument.

Gareth


26 Apr 03 - 07:37 PM (#940968)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Mark Cohen

NTDG, thanks for pointing that out. Of course, lies spread much more easily than truth. I read the article that DG linked to, and it's laughable. Unfortunately, people believe what fits their beliefs, whether it's credible or not (and I don't mean to exempt myself).

My understanding (which fits my belief system!) is that the term "anti-Semitic" originated as a euphemism, possibly to thinly disguise the fact that some people who were complaining about attacks against Jews were, in fact, Jewish. In some sense it's a nonsense word, since both Arabs and Jews are Semitic--though that wasn't as much of a consideration in the 1930's. And I suspect that even the term "Semitic" may have had pejorative connotations when it was originally used. (Hell, everything people say about other groups usually has pejorative connotations.) I once learned that the Semitic tribes were descended from Noah's son, Shem. But since that would theoretically include a third of humanity, I tend to doubt it. I don't know who originated the word "anti-Semitic", or when, or why--maybe somebody out there does.

By way of possible clarification, the answer to the question of whether Judaism is a religion, or an ethnic group, or a culture, is...yes. The vast majority of those who consider themselves Jews did not "choose" Judaism from a smorgasbord of religions. They were born to Jewish parents, who were born to Jewish parents, and so forth. (Technically, according to strict Jewish law, you are considered Jewish if your mother was Jewish. That doesn't mean, of course, that you must consider yourself Jewish...only that a Jewish religious authority would.) In that sense, Jews are an ethnic group. Now, most people who consider themselves Jews do observe Jewish religious practices, including many people who were born into other ethnic groups or grew up in other religious traditions. There is a wide variation in the extent and intensity of those religious practices, but they all draw from the same religious tradition and share some common principles, beliefs, symbols, and observances. Finally, there are a sizable number of people who consider themselves Jewish, who do not observe Jewish religious practices, but who identify with the history and culture of Judaism. For them, Judaism is a culture, not a religion.

So the answer may differ, depending on whether you're discussing who considers himself or herself Jewish, or whom an Orthodox Rabbinical court considers Jewish...or whom the Nuremberg edicts considered Jewish.

Aloha,
Mark

In my opinion, the question as to whether Jews are a "race" is a nonsense question. The concept of "race" derives from 19th century anthropologists' and historians' attempt to prove the superiority of northern European people by describing "inferior races" elsewhere in the world. Hitler carried this to an extreme.


26 Apr 03 - 07:53 PM (#940975)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Metchosin

and then again, to be even more pedantic, I could say that a load of Douglas fir on a logging truck was flammable but hardly inflammable, which does make more sense to me in context of its roots (no pun intended).*BG*


26 Apr 03 - 08:12 PM (#940982)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Bev and Jerry

We knew we shouldn't have use flammable and inflammable.

We were only trying to point out that English is a very strange language and words don't always mean what you'd think they mean. An anti-semite is not against semites any more than anti-matter is against matter. Aunty Em is not against Emily either. Antebellum is not against war. Antipasta is not....

Bev and Jerry

(Yes, we know it's Italian - don't start.)


26 Apr 03 - 10:02 PM (#941023)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

While the Balochistan Post certainly doesn't appear to be particularly friendly to Israel, it does quote a US newspaper in its article:

"The news of the Santorum-Brownback scheme, appeared in the April 15 issue of the New York Sun, a vehemently pro-Israel neo-conservative daily published in Manhattan"

I think it would make sense for people to read the article in the New York Sun before determining whether or not the Balochistan Post article is a lie. Anyone know where we can get access to the article in the New York Sun?


26 Apr 03 - 10:19 PM (#941029)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Here's the New York Sun article:

Universities Resist Efforts To Require Ideological Diversity On Campuses

by Timothy Starks
New York Sun
April 15, 2003


26 Apr 03 - 11:19 PM (#941054)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk

DG is drawing notice to a form of political correctness that's been around for quite a few decades, that's all, and I think most of us know what it is...

It is that people are frequently attacked as being "anti-semitic" merely because they criticize the Israeli government's policies in Israel and the occupied territories. This has much the same impact as if they were labelled "racist" for suggesting that O.J.Simpson might possibly have murdered his wife or lied in court.

It's a fear tactic to label people in that fashion, and it is used frequently.

It causes politicians and media people in particular to be very circumspect when it comes to what they say (publicly) about Israel. It also causes police to have fear of publishing any statistic which indicates the number of urban blacks involved in certain violent crimes...although to so publish ought to be an incentive to help the blacks in urban America improve their situation, rather than to cause anyone to demonize black people. (It's mostly other blacks who are the victims of the violence.)

It's sad, and it's endemic in this society. People are afraid to call a duck a duck, if it happens to be a black duck or an Israeli duck. This is what happens when society bends over backwards to right a previous wrong, and creates a plethora of new wrongs in the process.

The emperor has no clothes, but no one is allowed to publicly say so.

Similar fear tactics are being waged against people who publicly protested the war...only they are labelled as "traitors" instead of "racists" or "anti-semites".

McCarthy used such tactics to shut people up and shut them down. So did Hitler...in the early stages. Later he just had them arrested and shot.

- LH


27 Apr 03 - 10:26 AM (#941219)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L

Amos, I think you'll find that after the Hearst kidnapping, the U.S. severed all diplomatic ties to the Symbionese, in Symbonia.

I don't think any measure like that will stand, some people would transgress on principle alone, even some Jews, even some semites. But I could be wrong, I also don't think Bush can get re-elected, I really doubt it. I'll be very surprised.

   But an antidote is against dote. A hort may have a cohort. I went to bed at a godly hour, and now sit here with my clothes all shevelled, this place I shared with my requited love is in a total state of array.


27 Apr 03 - 10:27 AM (#941220)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

"....That's because it's all a lie, made up by some anti-Semite..."

WHAT IS AN ANTI-SEMITE?! A prick Republican wants to generate some campaign money from the Jews so he proposes illegal crapola, and suddenly the 'anti-semites' are spreading lies? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Santorum is a money-grubbing whore acting on some fat-cat's behalf, and anyone who opposes him is an 'anti-semite', which is something no one can define. Screw that. I want to know WHY someone who opposes Santorum's un-American activity is an anti-semite.

I suspect I'll never get a clear answer on this because then the whole thing would be de-mystified, and people who have CHOSEN the Jewish belief system would no longer have the option of falling back on the 'race card'. Or so it seems. Jews CHOOSE to worship in a certain way and they don't deserve special treatment because of it. They are not a 'race', they do not have a common genetic denominator, and criticizing a Jew is not anti-semitic or racist. You are not branded with your mother's religion, and free will does exist. Guess I reached my own conclusion. Sorry for thinking out loud, but you just get tired of the nonsense sometimes.


27 Apr 03 - 11:16 AM (#941231)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Another problem with using legislation like that for the purpose of promoting "idological diversity", is that when Fundamentalist Christian lobby groups realize that schools could lose funding if they criticize or discriminate against Pagans, they'll lobby against it pretty strenuously.


27 Apr 03 - 11:24 AM (#941237)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks

I have yet to see or hear from any real news source that Santorum has, will, or would even contemplate such legislation.


27 Apr 03 - 11:27 AM (#941239)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

I take it from what you've said, artbrooks, that you don't consider the New York Sun a "real news source".


27 Apr 03 - 11:56 AM (#941246)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk

No, no, it's the Toronto Sun that is not a real news source...


27 Apr 03 - 01:03 PM (#941284)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks

The NY Sun has been around for less than a year, has a very limited distribution, and a viewpoint that is slanted toward the right. No, I do not.


27 Apr 03 - 01:57 PM (#941326)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Ok, artbrooks. Thanks.


27 Apr 03 - 02:15 PM (#941337)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Art Thieme

This is just semantics---antisemantics ! ;-) ***SMILE*** **little joke** (Hell, I didn't think it'd be THAT little !!)

But seriously folks, antisemitism is what defines me as a Jew.

By that I mean that, somehow, I never had any afinity for or with the religious aspects of that faith. I never had the faith. My mother was Jewish. That is a Jew's definition of what is a Jew; if your mother wasa Jew, you are too. But in the 1940s Hitler would have put me in an oven and killed me because of that. I suspect there are arabs and white suremists who would do that too. So, I am a Jew---a Jewish person. I am also an atheist. ------ Your question was, "What is Anti-semitism?" For me, it's just a defining fact.

Art Thieme


27 Apr 03 - 05:33 PM (#941486)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City

CarolC,

There are few people here in NYC who take the NY Sun to be a serious news source. I don't know anyone who has ever bought it more than once; me included. My local newstand doesn't even bother carrying it.

Don't you think that if this was a serious story, it might have made it into at least one legitimate newspaper.

Why don't you call Santorum's office. I did and they said the whole thing is nonsense.

And that's why you can only find this story on uncredible websites.

There are websites that offer proof that Elvis is alive and working at a 7/11 in Mississippi. There are other websites that think Saadam was a great humanitarian. Just because you read it on the Internet does not mean it's true.


27 Apr 03 - 05:48 PM (#941492)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth

Calling someone "anti-Semitic" if they criticize the govenment of Israel, or calling someone "unpatriotic" or "un-American" if they criticize the Bush Administration is an example of the argumentum ad hominem--which is to say, an attempt to draw attention away from an assertion by attacking the person who makes the assertion.   It, in no way, refutes the assertion itself. This is a diversionary tactic and should be met with the contempt it deserves.

Don Firth


27 Apr 03 - 05:54 PM (#941498)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth

Also, if this country ever passes a law preventing anybody from criticizing anything, and if it isn't immediately
rescinded
by the Supreme Court, then that's all she wrote, folks!

Don Firth


27 Apr 03 - 07:30 PM (#941549)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Mark Cohen

DG, I think I agree with some of what you're saying here, but I guess you didn't see my earlier post, which did attempt to answer your question. It's not correct to say Jews don't have a common genetic denominator. A recent study (I know I should provide a reference, but I don't have it offhand and don't have the time to look for it) looked at the Y chromosomes of Jewish men who identified themselves as Kohanim. These are the descendants of the high priests (considered to be descendants of Moses' brother Aaron, the first Kohen), who still have special privileges and obligations in the synagogue service. In Jewish tradition the status of Kohen is passed from father to son. In biology, a man's Y chromosome comes from his father, while his X chromosome comes from his mother. The study showed that nearly all of these men had a specific marker on their Y chromosome which was not seen in other Jews or in non-Jews. This suggests that all these men, who were selected on the basis of a belief that they were all descendants of Aaron, were in fact descended from a common male ancestor.   

This certainly does not prove that all Jews are genetically related; of course they are not. But as I mentioned above, a very large proportion of people who identify themselves as Jews base that identification on a common ancestral heritage. It's not exclusively based on choice. And for the Nazis, at least, their attacks on Jews were not based on a person's religious choice at all. Many Christians died in concentration camps because they had a Jewish parent or grandparent. (In fact, there was a persistent rumor that Adolf Hitler's father, Alois, was the illegitimate son of a Jewish man named Frankenberger. The rumor was persistently denied, but Frankenberger did make regular payments to Hitler's grandmother's family. For more on this, I'd recommend the fascinating book For Your Own Good: Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence, by Swiss psychiatrist Alice Miller.)

For the record, I'm not a Kohen, despite my name. My grandfather's name was Kolchevni; he changed it when he came to America. The popular belief is that officials at Ellis Island changed people's names; in fact, most people changed their names to ones that they thought would sound more "American" and less "European".

Aloha,
Mark


28 Apr 03 - 12:28 AM (#941633)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

GUEST,New York City, I'm willing to take artbrooks' word that the New York Sun is not a credible source. There isn't any need for me to make a long distance phone call to check out something I've already accepted as a probability.

Regarding credibility, based on what I saw in their "about us" page, I don't have any reason to think that the Campus Watch website I linked to isn't credible, although the article they posted from the Sun may not be credible.

Personally, I think it's possible that Santorum entertained the idea just long enough for someone with better political sense than he has to talk him out of it. So I'm not convinced that there was never any truth to the story. But it really doesn't matter much in the long run if nobody's going to be trying to introduce such legislation anyway.


28 Apr 03 - 01:36 AM (#941655)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: musicmick

I hope we dont have to go over this again and again. The misinformation about Jews and their "common" belief is as continuous a lie as there exists in history. Ill informed non-jews have been more than willing to believe the most prepostorous chaserai from grinding up the bones of Gentile children to make matzoh to the suggestion that Israel knew about the 9/11 attack in advance but withheld the information to inflame Americans against the Arabs. Here are a few facts (not that it will make any difference to many).
The Jews are an ancient people who have survived, as a culture, because they have not assimilated into the various societies that have housed them in their exile, which we call diaspora. There is a tribal religion that unites the people but, unlike modern religions, ours is not a requirement for tribal membership. Even our bible is more a historical record than a litany of faith. Comparing Jews to Christians or Moslems is invalid. A Christian, for example, is someone who believes in the divinity of Christ. If he does not hold this belief, he ceases to be a Christian. A Jew is defined by birth and liniage. Think of a jew as you would a Navajo or a Maori.
Critsism of the Israeli government is not, in itself, anti-Semetic. Lots of Jews critisize the government. Lots of Israelis critisize the Prime Minister and the Knesset every day. However, if you critisize Israel for their very existense, I would suspect that you are anti-Jewish or anti-Semetic (both are acceptable)


28 Apr 03 - 01:48 AM (#941660)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: michaelr

Fred -- ROTFLMAO!

LH -- your post is, as usual, well-reasoned and to the point. Israel and its powerful supporters have tried for decades to use the "anti-semitic" smokescreen to deflect criticism of their policies. And DG is right about that.

Can I say that again?

GD is right about that!

Cheers,
Michael


28 Apr 03 - 03:12 AM (#941693)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wilfried Schaum

Raedwulf - interesting definition of Judaist. I always thought of him as a scientist devoted to the study of Jewish culture, language, literature &c. (Judaistics) So it is commonly used in the scientific circles around here.

Don - wonderful posts, especially about the argumentum ad hominem. Here in unlucky Germany antisemitic is used as a bat to immediately knock down the slightest critics against any person or institution being Jewish. We had our examples during the last polls.

The term Anti-Semitism concerning only the Jews seems to be coined in Europe, because the Jews for centuries were the only Semites living in European surroundings (the last Arabs in Spain were kicked out centuries ago).

Wilfried


28 Apr 03 - 06:45 AM (#941750)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang

Antisemitism (why retype what I have written earlier)

Wolfgang


28 Apr 03 - 07:11 AM (#941756)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Pied Piper

There is no such thing as a Jewish race any more than there is an Arabic race, a white race, a Black race, there is only a human race.
Even though ethnically Jewish people tend to marry other ethnically Jewish people the evidence suggests that Jewish people in a given area are more closely related to non Jews there than they are to Jews from other parts of the world. This does not of cause prevent the Cohen line evidence being true it just means that the hole concept of race is pretty well meaningless.
When occasionally asked for my "Ethnicity" (a euphemism for race used in certain official forms here in the UK)I'm very tempted to put left-handed, which is as valid as any other characteristic,to base a "race" on.

All the best PP


28 Apr 03 - 08:20 AM (#941787)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Obviously being highly critical of the activities of Israel doesn't imply anti-Semitism. Nor for that matter would it be anti-Semitic to be anti-Zionist, in the sense of being in principle opposed to the idea that Israel should by definition be a Jewish state, with the implication which that carries, that Israelis who are not Jewish should always in some sense be second-class citizens.

On the other hand anti-Semitism does obviously exist among those who are critical of Israel. In some cases, more especially within the far right in Europe, it is the source of antagonism to Israel; in other cases, more especially among Arabs, antagonism towards Israel has given rise to a kind of secondary antagonism towards Jews.

It is important for people who are critical of Israel to be aware of these differences. Anti-Semites are always the enemy. (Even when they have shifted their antagonism towards Jews to antagonism towards Arabs.) And it seems to me that people who try to brand all critics if Israel as "anti-Semites" are in fact acting in a way that actually promotes anti-Semitism, and in some cases consciously so, since that is a good way of making it harder for Jews in the diaspora to be openly critical of Israel.


28 Apr 03 - 12:02 PM (#941935)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

Well, some say Jews are a race and have no choice over their religious orientation, and some say otherwise. I think otherwise.

If Jewishness was a hereditary thing, then how is Sammy Davis Jr. accounted for? This is a no-brainer, folks.

If you are a Jew, it is because you CHOOSE to believe the stuff taught by the religion. Can't be any other way. If it WAS the other way, a Baptist could say, "I don't have any choice over the matter, because my daddy and his daddy afore him were Baptists." Believing in Judaism is what makes you a Jew, nothing more. You're not born with it. If the Jews want to be 'exclusive' and say you need certain genetic markers to be a 'real' Jew, that's their business. As long as they don't force that crap on me and call me an 'anti-semite' when I point out it is crap.

No offense meant to anyone. Honest. I just think every RUMOR of passing laws and regulations against the First Amendment needs to be thoroughly picked apart and, if true, nipped in the bud.


28 Apr 03 - 12:15 PM (#941947)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk

Art Thieme - Good point there! And very succinctly put. So, how do you define what a "Jew" is? Is it a religious designation, a genetic one, a cultural one, or a social one? Or is it various of those in one combination or another?

Obviously, the word "Jew" means, as in the case of numerous other words, whatever the person using it thinks it means. No wonder people are always arguing about these things and can't come to any agreeable conclusions... :-)

I would tend to agree that generally speaking a "Jew" is seen as someone whose parents are "Jewish"...except in the case of Sammy Davis Jr.???

- LH


28 Apr 03 - 12:20 PM (#941950)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L

It was a good point made up there, that while anti-semitism doesn't make sense, it's senselessness doesn't pertain to the beliefs and culture of Jews, it's a nonsense concocted by--anti-semites. Some of them were of a mythical race. It doesn't have to make sense to be real, and the fact that one feels unfairly labeled that way still doesn't make it unreal. The fact that someone may "play the race card" in an argument doesn't mean there isn't any racism. Because it "doesn't make sense". No, it doesn't, but yes, there is.


28 Apr 03 - 02:59 PM (#942082)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L

Dreaded Guest--exactly who is it that says Jews are a race and have no choice as to their beliefs? I've never heard that one, ever, and really don't know what you are going on about. It really is a no-brainer.


28 Apr 03 - 03:22 PM (#942096)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk

Everyone has a choice as to their beliefs. The question is "Is it a conscious choice?". Or: "Are they aware they have a choice?"

- LH


28 Apr 03 - 03:28 PM (#942103)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: NicoleC

I think, Fred, our DG is saying that those who hate Jews aren't racist because he doesn't believe Jews are a "race."

By whatever definition, that doesn't mean they aren't bigots and hate-mongers.

But since neither has anything to do with criticizing the government of Israel, I'm with you in that I can't figure out what he's going on about. Again.


28 Apr 03 - 03:32 PM (#942105)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth

It's my understanding that the Lutheran Church is very strong in the Scandinavian countries, particularly Sweden and Norway. There is a large number of people living in Seattle who are of Scandinavian descent and, of those who go to church, most of them go to Lutheran churches. There is a historical association between being Scandinavian and being Lutheran, and it would appear to me that this is analogous to the association between certain portions of the Semitic peoples and Judaism, as is neatly and clearly explained by Mark Cohen above, 26 Apr 03 - 07:37 PM (Aloha, Mark!). I don't think either "Scandinavianism" or "Lutheranism," or the combination thereof, constitute a race. Not, at least, in any anthropology textbook I've ever seen.

In 1924, an thirteen-year-old German girl named Helene Mayer won the German national fencing championship. She went on to win a gold medal at the 1928 Olympics. She continued to pile up a mind-boggling stack of medals and trophies over the next several years. While in Los Angeles to compete in the 1932 Olympics, she got the word that her German citizenship had been rescinded and she had been expelled from the Offenbach Fencing Club in her home town. Why? Well, it seems this five-foot ten-inch tall, green-eyed young woman, with her blonde hair tied back in braids, who could wield a foil with devastating skill—this young woman who looked like the quintessential Aryan, the very picture of Brünhilde herself—was born of a Christian mother and a Jewish father, neither of whom practiced any religion at all. They went to neither church nor synagogue. Now an unhappy expatriate, forbidden to return to her family and friends back home, Helene decided to stay in the United States where she went to Mills College. She won the 1934 and 1935 U. S. Women's Foils Championships and could have fenced on the U.S. Olympic Team. But she regarded her loss of German citizenship as some stupid bureaucratic blunder, didn't realize what was really at stake, and wanted her citizenship back.

The 1936 Olympic Games were to be held in Berlin. Hitler was relying on the Olympic Games to demonstrate to the world the superiority of the "Aryan Race," so to insure the "purity" of his athletes, he banned all Jews from the German Olympic teams. This created a mild furor in several countries, including the United States. Jewish athletes and many others who were sympathetic threatened a boycott. This wouldn't look good for the smooth running of the Olympics, so Hitler took threat seriously. In an effort to forestall a boycott and an international black eye, he (through an intermediary) begged Helene Mayer to return to Germany and compete on the German fencing team rather than fence for the American team. As an inducement, he indicated that he would restore her German citizenship. She was to be the token Jew. At least, Hitler contented himself, she was only half Jewish.

She accepted. She fenced in the Olympics and, disappointingly, placed second, winning the silver medal. Ironically enough, Ilona Schacherer-Elek from Hungary, who won the gold, and Ellen Preis from Austria, who won the bronze, were both Jewish. Although Germany won most of the medals at this Olympics, it was not a clean sweep for the Aryans. In addition to "non-Aryans" winning the top three places in women's fencing, Jesse Owens, pretty obviously a non-Aryan, dominated the track and field events. Hitler was visibly pissed! At one point, he stalked out of the arena in disgust.

Helene realized that things had changed in Germany, so after the Olympics, she returned to the United States and applied for American citizenship. She taught fencing at Mills College and went on to win a total of eight U. S. Women's Foils Championships before she died at an early age of ovarian cancer.

Helene Mayer was vilified by many people for accepting Hitler's offer to return and compete for Germany in the 1936 Olympics. Monday morning quarterbacking says that this was a highly questionable choice on her part, but she was politically very naïve, and like many people who should have known better, didn't really understand what was going on in Germany at the time. All she wanted to do was earn her degree in social work and spend her free time pursuing the sport she loved.

I don't know what all of this proves or what point I'm really trying to make here, other than to give an example of the kind of incredible self-defeating stupidity that can be displayed by those who feel threatened by anyone who didn't come out of the same cookie-cutter they came out of. This can—and did—reach Holocaust proportions when it guides the actions of those afflicted with this moral flaw who somehow manage to attain political power.

In a way, Helene Mayer was lucky. She left Germany before it was too late. Whether or not she practiced any religion at all, the fact that she had "Jewish blood" (whatever that is) could have spelled her doom, as it did for so many others. If I fault Helene Mayer at all, it's for being politically naïve. A dangerous non-position in that era.

And in this.

Don Firth


28 Apr 03 - 03:56 PM (#942121)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

OK, what I'm rabbitting on about is that I don't believe the Jews are a 'race' of people. Yet if you criticize a Jew, it is sometimes made out to be 'racism'. The opening link may have been a lousy one to use in starting this thread in order to get to this point, but yes, that is my fundamental problem with the 'anti-semitism' tag. If you criticize someone of the Jewish religious group, you are a racist. And I HAVE read of 'anti-semite' used in that context many times and will try to find examples if I give a damn later. I've heard and seen it used that way enough for MY satisfaction, at any rate. And it's not right. And given how the US was just sold on the Iraq invasion (50% of Americans thought Saddam did the 9-11 job), we can be sold ANYTHING. So I'm just trying to get ahead of the curve on this one. The Mid East debacle is going to mean a lot of Jews immigrating to America as the Arabs murderize them in Israel, and I just wanted to get straight with myself that I wasn't being racist when I tell them I don't agree with them. Really...simple as that. I've never had to give the matter much thought.

And restraints against the First Amendment have already been passed against Christians, Don. Several months ago the governor of Virginis (?) signed legislation passed by the Republicans there against bashing homosexuals from the pulpit. A lot of fundamentalists preach that the Bible is against homosexuality (and they make as good a case as you can with a book as open to interpretation as the Bible is), yet a secular ruler ruled that they could be imprisoned for condemning homosexuality. I believe that was in Virginia. The fire-breather I heard on the radio where I first heard it was astounded Caeser would command him not to rail against the 'queers', as he put it, and that was an odd broadcast. Obvious hate speech, but it was the man's right to speak that way, or was it? I'd say yes, and then let him suffer the reprisals. But you mentioned restrictions on the First Amendment...I'll try to re-locate the particulars of that case if you're interested. Had the bill number and everything. I agree that would be the end of America...or the beginning of the end...but I think its already under way.


28 Apr 03 - 04:11 PM (#942135)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Amos

DG:

Obviously you are mixing with the wrong crowd. Anyone who would jump to a racism stance when an individual person -- regardless of their faith was being criticized in a constructive, or intelligent, or specific way -- not an ad hominem way -- is obviosuly an arm-waving loony given to broad generalizations and incapable of clear precise thought.

Either that or the "criticisms" were actually personal, or wide meaningless generalizations like the one you posted above ("Yet if you criticize a Jew, it is sometimes made out to be 'racism'. The opening link may have been a lousy one to use in starting this thread in order to get to this point, but yes, that is my fundamental problem with the 'anti-semitism' tag. If you criticize someone of the Jewish religious group, you are a racist"). May I suggest you find a more discrominating group of associates to talk to, and strive mightily to be worthy of their company?

A


28 Apr 03 - 04:42 PM (#942167)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

It's a common enough thing for people to be accused of anti-Semitism for criticizing the government of Israel. And it's not just arm-waving loonies who do it. Sometimes it's just normal people of various faiths and ethnic backgrounds who have been taught to believe that only anti-Semites would criticize the government of Israel. Denying that this is the case won't fix the situation. As with all generalizations about people, the only way to correct it is to educate people about it.


28 Apr 03 - 06:50 PM (#942271)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: SINSULL

Dreaded Guest,
I believe you ar ereferring to the law passed in Pennsylvania. Agape Press covers it. It does not ban preaching against homosexuality from the pulpit. It does mandate stiffer penalties for hate crimes. As i understand it, if a preacher suggests to his congregation that they should go out and harm or harrass homosexuals or murder abortionists, he will be held liable. This type of legislation brought down the KKK. IMHO, just another form of "Don't yell 'FIRE' in a movie theater unless there is one."

Partial Article:
(AgapePress) - Pastors in Pennsylvania are facing a new state law today that could mean they will be charged for simply preaching against homosexuality.

On Monday, the Ethnic Intimidation law in Pennsylvania called for longer jail terms and higher fines for crimes motivated by hatred against victims because of race, color, religion, or national origin. But with the stroke of a pen on Tuesday, Governor Mark Schweiker signed legislation amending that law to include the phrase: "ancestry, mental or physical disability, sexual orientation, gender, or gender identity."

So what does that mean? According to The Washington Times, it means that someone who is convicted of attacking a homosexual because of his sexual orientation would face a longer jail term and stiffer fines -- just as a person does now for targeting a racial minority.


28 Apr 03 - 07:18 PM (#942301)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L

Well, sure DG, I've seen that--I once worked with a Jewish picture framer who, if you had to ask him to re-do some sloppy work, would go off muttering about how after thousands of years of persecution, he's not surprised.... It was hilarious. You can resent a slander without trying to parse it.

But unless you have some worries about yourself, I think you just have to stare it down. What else are you going to do? Arguing it out only gets worse, like a piece of tape on your finger and you try to get it off and it sticks to your other hand and etc. In the example you raised I'd just stick to free speech issues and ignore the Jewish/race/ belief/Sammy Davis jr etc., it's like a Zionist infection. You'll end up with Lincoln, who was not a Jew, but rejected Jesus, does that make him vaguely Jew-ish? You'll be trying to figure out Dylan's born again stuff--Dude, turn back! It's beside the point, one hopes. So leave it there.


28 Apr 03 - 09:17 PM (#942379)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: musicmick

I should have known better than to try to convince you geniuses that a Jew might know more about what defines a Jew than you do. I foolishly thought that this thread was an attempt at enlightened discourse rather than just another bash the Jews forum. Adolf Hitler understood who was and was not a Jew. He did his sorting out by bloodline, not by belief. Centuries of Pogrom and massacre by the Cossacks and the peasants of Russia and the Ukraine, the Khmelnitski atrocities against the Polish Jews when 6000 Jews were slaughtered, in none of these occasions did the murderers ask if the Jews they were killing were pious, reformed or non-believers. It seems to suit the politics of this discussion group to believe that Jews are those who choose to be Jews. (I have heard that same argument used to discriminate against Gays) I also love that you dont see why there should be a Jewish state but I have yet to see you objecting to Arab states. I guess you have answered the question in the heading. What is Anti-Semitism. You are.


28 Apr 03 - 10:00 PM (#942404)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Do you think you're the only Jew in this forum, musicmic? And where on this thread did the subject of whether or not there should be a Jewish State come up?


28 Apr 03 - 10:09 PM (#942410)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

You know, musicmic, one of the things that people use as a benchmark of racism and bigotry is the practice of generalizing behaviors of some members of a group to the group as a whole. You seem to be saying that everyone in this forum is an antisemite based on the behavior of a small number of people here in this thread. Maybe you're the racist/bigot.


28 Apr 03 - 10:45 PM (#942430)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth

Well, musicmic, with the genome project well under way, perhaps you can point out for us where the "Jewishness gene" hangs out in the DNA molecule.

Golly! Perhaps sometime in the near future, religious belief can be controlled through gene splicing. I can think of a couple of religious groups that would really like that.

Don Firth


28 Apr 03 - 11:43 PM (#942471)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

The DNA argument...I recall reading how we could all be traced back to a common female in Africa. Eve. Millions of years ago. Remember that? So that makes me, a white guy in Texas, in reality a black woman from Africa. Yeah...DNA is a GREAT argument for settling theological discussions.

Musicmic is a good case in point of what I'm talking about. And I don't know, but Jews should be worried about passing protectionary laws, even if they benefit Jews for the moment. There are a lot more non-Jews in America, and we are going a bit fascist in our governmental ways, it seems. It's open season on Arabs right now, but who's next? Arabs are semites too, according to Merriam-Webster, and are Jews filing lawsuits to stop Arab children from being beaten to death at Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo? If not, then THAT is anti-semitism.

And it WAS Schweiker I was thinking of. Of course the fundamentalist site I saw that article on made a lot bigger deal out of it than is described by Sinsull, but damn, people SHOULD make a big deal out of the restriction of freedom of speech. The preacher I heard talking about Schweiker signing the legislation said it DID extend to speech and a church could be closed because of preaching against homosexuals. I'd have to go back and look at the wording of the bill, but I think the preacher was right. And that's just plain un-American. The preacher should be allowed to talk however he wants, and then pay the PERSONAL consequences. Have his business or church boycotted, lose his radio show because of a drop in advertising revenue, etc. But he shouldn't be fined by the govt. The govt cannot restrict freedom of speech in the US.

I just wanted to clarify what anti-semitism was, and suddenly I'm a Jew basher. Lots of touchy people in the world.


29 Apr 03 - 12:18 AM (#942484)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie

Dreaded Guest, you say you wanted to clarify what anti-Semitism was- I think you only said what you think is not anti-Semitism. What do you think is anti-Semitism?


29 Apr 03 - 12:22 AM (#942485)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk

You have just discovered how being accused of antisemitism works, DG. You are now guilty merely by accusation, and must struggle to prove yourself innocent. No amount of struggling will suffice, in all probability, to mollify those who have accused you. In fact, the more you struggle to explain yourself, the guiltier you will look.

If you were a politician, you would be in very deep trouble.

- LH


29 Apr 03 - 02:08 AM (#942522)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: musicmick

The question in the Middle East is and has always been the legitimacy of the Jewish state. The war which began in 1948 was fought over this issue and this issue, only. If those erudites whose opinions have been fouling up this thread with misinformation, had bothered to check the history of this war, they would have uncovered that little tidbit on their own. The Moslem religious right understands this and has steadfastly refused to accept the state of Israel under any circumstances. They are no more interested in Palestinian rights than George Bush is about health care. There was no talk about Palestinian rights or a Palestinian state when that region was controled by Turkey, or by absentee Egyptian and Syrian landlords. I am bringing these points up to suggest that the corespondants to this thread are either uninformed or biased. If I have assumed the latter, I assure you that I would prefer to be mistaken. It is just that the history of this conflict is so recent that I thought everyone knew about it.
I might have a more tolerant view of the motives of these corespondants if I found an equal number of threads condemning terrorist attacks directed specificly at civilians, bombs at bus terminals, skyjackings, school bombings. I am not blind to the anti-Israeli bias in this thread. If there are Jews among the corespondants, they should recognize their vulnerability. We are a funny race. Sometimes we become assimilated enough to think that our ethnic identity is no more cogent than the color of our hair. We maintain just enough tradition to please our parents or the memory of our parents. Yet, within those traditions, is a seed of unity, a sense of family, as it were. Last week, I attended a Passover seder at the home of a very modern and very American and very anti-war friend. There was lots of responsive reading from the hagadah, most of which was as passed over as the Malech Hamovis (Angel of Death) avoiding the bloodstained doors of the Jews in bondage. The irony of this seder was when the story of the four sons is told, the "wicked" son is so called because he detaches himself from his ancestors in bondage. He thinks of himself as being above the tribulations and dangers that befall his family. For, as the story suggests, all of us are who we are and who we were and where we come from.
I am a Jew by birth. I am an American by birth and by choice. I am an Israeli by liniage and history. I am old enough to remember WW2 and the concentration camps. I have lived in a world that ignored the plight of the Jews until their oppressors became a threat to the Christian world. I understand, all too well, why there is a need for a Jewish state.
I also understand the history and psychology of anti-semitism. It is as rooted in western culture as White supremecy. (No white, including me, is immune to anti-Black racism. It is a cultural legacy. It can only be combatted by awareness. Similarly, no Christian can escape the reality of the anti-Jewish bias. It is rooted in deicide and reinforced by centuries of segregation and distrust.)
Well, I'm done. I leave you with a sincere wish for shalom.


29 Apr 03 - 02:59 AM (#942537)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

Well, I certainly am not trying to act biased. I don't think I've displayed bias here. But I've seen some displayed.

What I find most odd in pondering this thread is how Hitler can be so reviled as a 'racist' because of his Aryan beliefs...reviled by folks who attach such importance to genetic lineage themselves. Do any of the rest of you think that is odd? To advance in the Jewish religion, apparently, you have to have certain genetic credentials, just like you had to have certain Aryan credentials to advance in Hitler's world. If I am wrong in making this observation, I apologize to any who might be offended, but if I'm right, has this point ever been addressed?

Pride of heritage is great, but when you condemn others because they don't bow down to your belief system, then your group has some problems. I've never discussed anti-semitism before, but this experience with it is fairly distressing. Sounds like very little deviation is accepted among Jews, but that doesn't give them the right to extend their rigid code to others. Not in America, at least.

I have no idea what anti-semitism is, Ebbie. That's why I asked.


29 Apr 03 - 06:33 AM (#942602)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

From one point of view the definition of "who is a Jew" doesn't rest with Jews. It rests with the anti-semites, and on who they choose to persecute or discriminate against as Jews. And they are typically more concerned about "bloodlines" than religion or even culture. Though I imagine that they'd be quite willing to extend the definition to include converts to Judaism and so forth, or people who exhibited cultural affinities, such as liking Klezmer music.

However the same kind of attitudes that show up as anti-semitism show up in regard to other minorities. Whether bigotry against Arabs qualifies as anti-semitism is a matter of semantics, but it's cut from the same cloth, and it appeals to the same shadowy place in the mind. I get the impression that for some people in parts of the right which have historically been anti-semitic, it has provided a convenient displacement mechanism, satisfying the same felt need - and it can be combined with expressions of support for Israel. A guilt-free alternative. Except it's not.


29 Apr 03 - 08:56 AM (#942666)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks

Musicmic: DG is a familiar irrational, and there are a couple of other people here who are known for having one-sided opinions on some issues. Keep cool, chaver.


29 Apr 03 - 09:38 AM (#942687)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L

Gee whiz, y'all. I think it's an error to focus a question of free speech on Jewish identity--it makes it look like like that's the point, which makes it look like an anti-semitic agenda.

Musicmic, so... I take it Hitler understood anti-semitism? I'll try to remember that.


29 Apr 03 - 11:04 AM (#942767)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

I was right, musicmic. You are a racist and a bigot. You don't get to define my motives by virtue of what you think they should be, based on your own biases and agendas.


29 Apr 03 - 11:38 AM (#942791)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Pied Piper

Hi musicmic.
   You seen consider yourself one of Gods Chosen people, and that you have a right to steel land and water from the Palestinians on the basis that God gave it to you 4000 years ago.
Tell me; how does anyone negotiate a peace with this attitude prevailing.
The Nazis did it to us is not an acceptable excuse for cultural genocide.

Salam
Shalom

PP


29 Apr 03 - 11:38 AM (#942792)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

Art...I HAD no opinion on anti-semitism before I started this thread. I live near the Mexican border. Most of the people around me are Latino, and THAT is the racial/cultural thing I'm forced by politicians and religious leaders and the news media to focus on. The people around me are just people, until they're reminded their folks were from Mexico or Texas, etc. I just get tired of the Al Sharpton vs David Duke mentality everyone buys into, then I see an article where Jews get kid glove treatment and recall how that religion has tried to present itself as a 'race' in the past, so I have to ask what it's all about. And in the process I'm reminded of the Jews' obsession with genetics, which smacks of Aryan-supremacy. What a wacky world. And I had NOTHING to do with making that part of the world...I'm just trying to figure out why I should lose my freedom of speech because a group of people want to follow a particular belief system.


29 Apr 03 - 12:05 PM (#942813)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk

musicmic - You are quite correct that the Muslim religious fundamentalists question the legitimacy of the Israeli state and wish to destroy it. You are also right that the Muslim "religious right" is dangerous. I have focused on the danger they pose in a number of posts I have done about the Wahabbis in Saudi Arabia. It is my opinion that those people planned and carried out the WTC and Pentagon attacks, and have been behind other acts of terrorism...and that they pose a danger not only to Jews and Americans, but also to moderate Muslims everywhere.

I am just as critical of Muslim-inspired terror as I am of Israeli-inspired terror. And I am also critical of American-inspired terror. You could say that I'm anti-terrorist, and that would be accurate...but you might better just say that I'm pro-human.

- LH


29 Apr 03 - 12:14 PM (#942822)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. Dreaded Guest, so that's all you're concerned about- whether Jews should or should not consider themselves a race that they believe were/are God's Chosen People and entitled to their ancestral homeland, and that in doing so they may be racist themselves? Lighten up. Christianity itself is predicated on the same belief. Arabs, for all I know, may also consider themselves to be among those God chose- I understand the difference consists of different brothers.

Even if you don't believe in the concept of a Jewish 'race', keep in mind that a bigot on any subject can be as deluded and harmful as the classic racist. The harm is in what acts they pursue. What a person believes in his heart of hearts and in the privacy of his own home cannot be regulated- what he does and espouses in the outside world can.


29 Apr 03 - 12:57 PM (#942854)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

With appologies to Tom Paxton, "what did you learn at Mudcat today, dear little boy of mine?"

From Dreaded Guest I learned that antisemites who do not consider Jews to be a race cannot be considered to be racist.

From CarolC I learned that musicmic is a racist and a bigot becuase he believes in Israel as a Jewish homeland.

And that's what I learned at Mudcat today. Oy vey, oy vey, oy vey.


29 Apr 03 - 01:02 PM (#942857)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

From CarolC I learned that musicmic is a racist and a bigot becuase he believes in Israel as a Jewish homeland.

No. You learned that he is a racist and a bigot because he assumed that I don't believe in Israel as a Jewish homeland based on nothing other than the stereotypes he holds of people who are not Jewish.


29 Apr 03 - 01:16 PM (#942876)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

One in five Israelis are not in any sense Jewish, they are the remnant of the Arab population who did not go into exile.

If the people who went into exile, and their children, were allowed to return home the figure would be round one in two. Insofar as the reason they can't return home is because that would mean it wasn't a Jewish homeland any more, I can't see how that can escape being open to the charge of racism.

Israel has a "right of return" that only applies to people from the Jewish Disapora, and not from the Palestinian Diaspora. Perhaps there may be arguments which can be raised in defence of that - but they would have to be arguments that accepted that it is a racist policy, and found some way of seeking to justify it, even so.


29 Apr 03 - 01:29 PM (#942883)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

I just don't want ANY religious group denying freedom of speech in America, Ebbie, and lawmakers seem quick to grant concessions when it comes to race. And the Jews aren't a race anymore than the Methodists are. THAT'S why I'm splitting hairs over inherited traits vs voluntary beliefs.


29 Apr 03 - 01:37 PM (#942891)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

For crying out loud DG, when anti-semites are around being Jewish isn't a matter of "voluntary beliefs". Someone from a Jewish family could be an atheist, a Catholic, or a Buddhist, they'd still be liable to get the same treatment. Hitler didn't worry about things like that, and nor do his fans.


29 Apr 03 - 02:03 PM (#942915)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang

We had a politician (from my home town) during the last elections (Wilfried may mean that incident; however, I recollect it completely different) who used this tactic ad nauseam:
He singled out a prominent German Jew, made a nasty antisemitic remark about him and also criticised Sharon's politics. His antisemitic remark was called 'antisemitic' by the prominent Jew (but not only by him). Then the politician in all his know public speeches never forgot to include this line of 'reasoning': I am a man who stands here and dares to criticise Sharon's politics and I shall never refrain from doing so even if I am called antisemitic.

He had been called antisemitic and he had criticised Sharon's politics but the two had nothing in common (except that they had happened the same week). Nobody had ever called him antisemitic for criticising Sharon's politics but he made the connection over and over as if this was something of validity. His endless repetition of the sentence 'If it is antisemitic to criticise Sharon then I may be called an antisemite' came over as fishing for sympathies from outspoken antisemites.

Here in this thread, I've counted more than two dozen repetitions of the 'it isn't antisemtic to criticise the Israeli government' argument. It is a correct argument as has been pointed out, among others, by musicmic. I have failed to find any post in support of such a position and I have even failed to find any link or any citation in any post pointing out that a sizeable part of the population believes in such an argument. So why is it repeated over and over without any opposition?

I cannot help but being reminded of the tactics of the German politician.

"It is not racist to point out that some African governments are very lousy". No, it isn't but if this argument would be repeated over and over without any opposition to it I would start slowly asking myself about the motives of those using it.

Musicmic a racist and bigot? I have read his posts over and over and still fail to see even the slightest reason for such a condemnation.

Wolfgang


29 Apr 03 - 02:23 PM (#942936)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

musicmic has declared everyone in this forum an anti-semite, Wolfgang. And he justifies it by making a lot of assumptions about the people here, most particularly about the ones who are not Jewish. If someone does that sort of thing to Jews, they are called "anti-Semites". If one does that sort of thing to Blacks, they are called racists. Making assumptions about people based on your stereotypes of the group to which they belong is racist and/or bigoted. Same set of rules for everyone.


29 Apr 03 - 02:30 PM (#942938)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang

Yes, Carol, I have read your assertion before your repetition here, I just fail to see any basis for it.

Wolfgang


29 Apr 03 - 02:45 PM (#942944)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Well, Wolfgang, you have admitted to me that you have biases of your own in this regard. Maybe those biases are clouding your vision a bit.


29 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM (#942970)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Maybe it's different in Gernmany, Wolfgang, but in the letter columns and the papers here it is very common indeed for people to be accused of being anti-semitic because they are critical of Israel.

True enough, there are anti-semites who anti-Zionism as a camouflage, just as there are supporters of Israel who use the label of "anti-semite" as a way of defusing and deflecting criticism.

In a way there is an analogy between what happens in this context and what happens in the Intifada. Terrorist attacks cause horrible damage to innocent people - but the effect is to make it easier for the extremist givernment in Israel to maintain its position. If there was an end to terrorism, their hold on power would be in danger.

And much the same is true about anti-semitism. And by branding people who are not anti-semitic in this way, it becomes easier for the real anti-semites to operate and to spread their poison.


29 Apr 03 - 03:35 PM (#942977)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth

McGrath is right. In the United States, it is expected that if you criticize the Israeli government you will be accused of anti-Semitism.

Don Firth


29 Apr 03 - 03:43 PM (#942983)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

McGrath is right. In the United States, it is expected that if you criticize the Israeli government you will be accused of anti-Semitism.

Except if you're Jewish. In the US if you're Jewish and you criticize the Israeli government, you can anticipate being called a "traitor" and/or a "self-hating Jew".


29 Apr 03 - 03:44 PM (#942986)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: musicmick

I suppose that the term, race, is inappropriate if it is used to define the Jews. Nation is more accurate (a nation is an allience of tribes) but modern times have redefined ancient words. I do not use the term, "racists", to describe those who appear biased against the Jews. For those folks, we use the term, "anti-Semites", even though that is not, technically, correct. It is also undeniably proper to include other tribal survivors from that area in the nation. I doubt that they (the Hashemites, the Bedoins, the Druze, etc) would wish to be Jews but, if they did, I would welcome them back into the family.
And it is a family, not better or worse than other families. If we are different than other tribes or nations or peoples, it is only that we have managed to survive, pretty much intact, for thousands of years and, until 1948, we did it as strangers in many strange lands.
I hold no grudge with Moslems in general or Palestinians in particular. I believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own. My experience as a Jew has shown me the need for a people to have their own state. The Palestinians have been exploited for centuries because, without their own state, they were forced to work for others, often in other Arab countries. Like the Irish in England and the Chinese in America, the Palestinians provided cheap labor for wealthier Arab landowners. (Here's a little ammo for my adversaries. The Israelis have used them as underpaid labor, too. It is only the power of the Histadrut, the national labor union, that has required equal pay for Arabs and Jews. But Bosses are bosses the world around and I have no doubt that non resident Palestinian, Syrian and Lebonese
workers are often taken advantage of.)
I do have one hell of a bone to pick with people who want to kill me or my children. I am intolerant of terrorists. I dont care why they want to kill me or my children. Frankly, Our lives are not negotiable.
I will not lay down and die to satisfy someone else's political agenda. I dont hurt other people, I dont exploit other people, I dont
kill other people who have things I want. I dont deserve to be killed.
Neither do you, Carol. Your politics and your motives may be an affront to me, but I dont think, for one minute, that you should be killed for them. Sincere people can disagree. They can even be pejudiced in their beliefs. But Israel, and now the USA, are dealing with an enemy who kill without concience or apparent motive, and an enemy who kill non combatents in random lands. That you cannot see the unique danger posed by these groups suggests, to me, either blinders or an anti_jewish predisposition.


29 Apr 03 - 04:09 PM (#943008)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

You don't even know what my politics or motives are, musicmic. Why make assumptions? Why not just ask?


29 Apr 03 - 04:24 PM (#943019)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

There's a lot of killing "without conscience" going on, on both sides. Not "without motive", there's always a motive of some kind, but that doesn't make it any better. Its main effect is to ensure that the other side keeps on returning the favour.

"I dont care why they want to kill me or my children. Frankly, Our lives are not negotiable." There are plenty of people who could say that. On both sides.


29 Apr 03 - 04:25 PM (#943020)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

CarolC, your politics have been expounded ad nauseum in many of the 6,781 posts that you've made to Mudcat under your name. Anyone who can read and knows how to find Mudcat can know your politics.

As for your motives, they can be surmised by the obsessions you've repeatedly demonstrated.


29 Apr 03 - 05:00 PM (#943060)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

"under your name"...


29 Apr 03 - 05:04 PM (#943065)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

My post was directed to musicmic, GUEST, not to you. But since you say you know my posting history so intimately, you'll know which groups of people I have stuck up for, unconditionally, in the Mudcat at various times in the past. And if you don't, then you're just a blowhard who is looking to get a rise out of me.


29 Apr 03 - 05:28 PM (#943087)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

Yes, McGrath, I said "under your name" when counting CarolC's posts.

Like many others, CarolC has deleted her cookie and posted as a guest on certain occasions. I don't know how many times she's done that. That's why I specified "under your name" when quantifying her posts. I have no idea how many posts she's made as a guest.

Now, I don't have any problem with deleting cookies and posting as a guest. I do it, CarolC does it, for all I know, maybe you do it too.


29 Apr 03 - 05:41 PM (#943095)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Very clever, GUEST. If I deny it, I look guilty, if I admit it, I look guilty, if I ignore it, I look guilty. I'm not biting.


29 Apr 03 - 08:39 PM (#943200)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

My post was directed to musicmic, GUEST, not to you.

I thought PMs were for personal messages and forum posts were for everybody.


29 Apr 03 - 09:19 PM (#943216)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth

No matter what you may think of CarolC and what she posts, GUEST, at least she has the integrity to post using her name. Now, just who in the hell are you?

Don Firth


29 Apr 03 - 09:24 PM (#943217)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

Noone, pretty obviously.


30 Apr 03 - 01:38 AM (#943315)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: DougR

Do the Palestinians REALLY want a country of their own? Today's bombing on the day rememberances of the Holocaust was being observed, and at almost the precise moment the Palestinian Parliment was electing a new PM doesn't appear to help their cause any, IMO. The new PM was announcing plans to disarm terrorists groups in Palestine, including Hammas almost at the same time that the bomber blew himself and others up outside an American owned bar.

Carol C?

DougR


30 Apr 03 - 01:52 AM (#943324)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: musicmick

My name is Mike Miller. I have often signed my postings. I am not reluctant to stand up for what I believe. When Carol's ass is on the line, when Carol's children are living under immediate threat for no reason except that they are her children, when her life and her home and her family are the targets, I will take notice of her couragious and selfless positions. Ask her what her politics are? I am not blind. Nor am I illiterate. She is (or thinks she is) a safe and secure non combatent who stands on the side clucking, "That's nice, dont fight." while my people are being killed for living in a state that was created (but never defended) by the United Nations. Her every comment in this thread has shown that she values Israeli lives less than Palestinian lives. I have no problem with Palestinians who place a higher value on their own lives than they do mine. I dont even question why other Arabs identify with the Palestinians. I can understand that Moslems would side with Moslems. They know who their enemies are and so do I.


30 Apr 03 - 01:57 AM (#943325)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: NicoleC

I don't thinkthere's any reasonable basis to judge Palestinians as whole by the actions today (or any other terrorist act), particularly when the timing seemed designed to do the most damage to the peace process.

It's like asking if all Americans REALLY want anarachy, because there are anacharists that deliberately destroy property, or all Americans are survivalists because of some paramilitary cults that think blowing up federal buildings is a good way to achieve their aims..

I do think if they can get an acceptable truce going with real progress toward a final solution -- and Sharon SAYS he supports ending the settlements which will be a big help in that direction -- the general Palestinian public might be less passive about the presence of the terrorists groups.

It's like when you hear about a vigilante that's stalking muggers -- you think to yourself he's wrong, but a frustrated part of you kind of wants to cheer him on... no wait, it's WRONG, I hope they catch the guy... but, wait, the muggers are bad guys, too...


30 Apr 03 - 02:41 AM (#943332)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

Andrija Artukovic Wartime Interior Minister of the Croatian puppet state, ordered the deaths of 600,000 Jews Serbs and Gypsies. He sat for 21 years in an expensive beachfront apartment compound in Surfside. Ca. under a deportation order. Over 1000 war criminals lived in Canada after the war....Simon Weisenthal refused to visit Canada because of the lack of political will to prosecute war criminals.

Many people who have little knowledge of the Holocaust, debate why we should even bother arresting and trying Nazis... The USA and Canada refused to allow persecuted displaced jews to settle, when they escaped or were driven out of Europe. The State of Israel was created by Auschwitz and Belsen and Dachau etc; and by the indifference shown to the Jews. Never Again...

Interesting discussion about anti semetism, with some good points raised.


30 Apr 03 - 07:03 AM (#943387)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

"The State of Israel was created by Auschwitz and Belsen and Dachau"



True. The Palestinians have paid, and are still paying, the price for what people elsewhere, especially in Europe, did to the Jews.

Pretty clearly the bombing in Tel Aviv was aimed against the new Palestinian administration as much as against Israel. The extremists on both sides need each other, and in effect assist each other. (By which I do not mean they sit down together and agree tactics, but that the effect of their actions is to strengthen the position of their opposite numbers, the people who share their belief that violence is the way.)


30 Apr 03 - 08:21 AM (#943422)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

Now that Saadam is gone, who is going to pay the $25,000 to the Palestinian martyr's family?


30 Apr 03 - 08:47 AM (#943446)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker

NicoleC-I might be alone in this, but I don't really have any mixed feelings about said vigilante. The removal of the muggers probably benefits society as a whole, and probably provides greater benefit to the potential victims of those muggers than the inactivity of said vigilante would provide. As long as he doesn't hit the wrong target, I would support him wholeheartedly.

Little thread drift, I suppose . . .


30 Apr 03 - 09:18 AM (#943470)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

McGrath of Harlow's observation: "Pretty clearly the bombing in Tel Aviv was aimed against the new Palestinian administration as much as against Israel."

Especially when you consider who has taken credit for this terroristic suicide bombing. The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Yasser Arafat's personal militia.


30 Apr 03 - 09:44 AM (#943489)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Sam L

Musicmic, I wouldn't call you anything based on it, but your one post did seem to swing a little wide, and left me unsure whether I or everyone was supposed to be offended by it.


30 Apr 03 - 12:08 PM (#943616)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

No musicmic, you're completely wrong. You're wrong about my positions on the conflict in the middle east, and you're wrong about a lot of other things as well. If you're looking for a dialogue, you'll ask me what my positions are. Since you're still projecting your own idea of where I stand onto me, based on your bigoted world view, I can see that you're nowhere near being ready to let go of that bigotry.


30 Apr 03 - 12:25 PM (#943634)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Ok, so here you go, Mike Miller, whether you ask for it or not. Believe it or not (I'm sure you won't, but that doesn't matter), you and I are pretty much in agreement about what we want for Israel/Palestine. But where we differ is on the cause and effect of the present day conflict. My position is that it is the Likud party's policies that are directly causing the violence in Israel/Palestine.

During the period after the signing of the Oslo accord, and before the death of Prime Minister Rabin (a period of about two years), there were no Israelis killed by PLO terrorism. During that time, the Palestinians had hope that they would have their own country. When Netanyahu reneged on the Oslo agreement, that's when the violence started again. The Palestinians lost hope. When Netanyahu was elected, and then when Sharon was elected, it was for the Palestinians, pretty much the same as it would for Jews if an anti-Semitic neo-Nazi got elected in a country like the US.

I don't consider myself and my child to be living in safety at all. I see myself and my child being put in terrible danger by the Government of Israel who seem to be hell bent on creating a massive world war complete with nuclear weapons. And I am just as saddened by the deaths of Jews as I am by the deaths of everyone else. But I blame Sharon, Netanyahu, and the rest of those war criminals for the death of every innocent Jew and every innocent Palestinian.


30 Apr 03 - 12:43 PM (#943648)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Forgot to mention this bit...

Sharon and the Likud party want nothing less than the complete removal of all Palestinians from Israel and from the Occupied territories, and they don't care how many innocent Jews are killed to make that happen.


30 Apr 03 - 09:53 PM (#944068)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Burke

Sorry DG, that's just not the way the world works.

When a person from a totally secular non-religious upbringing & attitude has "Dirty Jew" scratched on her car, it happened because she has a physical appearance that brands her 'Jew' to the unknown anti-semite that did the damage.

This happened to a good friend of mine @2 years ago. Her car was parked in the school parking lot where whe worked. The body shop fixed it for free.


30 Apr 03 - 10:17 PM (#944079)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Burke

OOPS! A bit out of context due to reading the broken up thread & forgetting I wasn't seeing the whole thing.


30 Apr 03 - 10:58 PM (#944098)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk

McGrath - You are quite correct that the extremists on both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian/Arab conflict "need each other, and in effect assist each other." Exactly. Just like Osama Bin Laden and the American military-industrial complex need each other.

And people who argue for peace, conflict resolution, and an end to both state terrorism and non-state terrorism (by members of militias or individuals)...are considered enemies by the extremists on both sides, who don't want peace.

Extremists want only one kind of peace...that which is achieved by utterly destroying their opponents. The peace of the grave, in other words...for those whom they consider beneath contempt or consideration as fellow human beings.

Extremists despise people who argue for negotiation, and usually accuse those people of being "useful idiots" for the "other side" (whoever the other side happens to be).

I know a Palestinian couple who own a little Shawarma restaurant in Toronto. They're utterly harmless people who came to Canada hoping for a peaceful life. They are not terrorists. I likewise know various Jews who are living quiet and peaceful lives in Canada and are not terrorists. Not all of them support the Likud goverment. Not by any means.

It is intellectually dishonest to brand either Israelis or Jews or Palestinians by the actions of the most militant extremists on one side or the other, but if you criticize one party for its extremism you will be accused by them of totally favouring the other party.

The accusation arises not out of understanding but out of fear, and bigotry is based upon fear. So, for that matter, are war and terrorism.

- LH


04 May 03 - 11:41 PM (#946072)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City

I guess I'm not surprised that the British suicide bombers have been linked to the International Solidarity Movement.

href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=289728&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y">The
International Solidarity Movement and the British suicide terrorists


04 May 03 - 11:46 PM (#946074)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City

I guess I'm not surprised that the British suicide bombers have been linked to the International Solidarity Movement.

The
International Solidarity Movement and the British suicide terrorists


05 May 03 - 05:12 AM (#946134)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

"Linked to the International Solidarity Movement" means that they went along to a memorial service for Rachel Corrie.

Calling that a "link" implies something very different from that. It's a smear tactic.

Here is a link to a story which indicates what "the link" actually consisted of - "C4 cameraman killed in Gaza"   The headline refers to the shooting of a British television camerman by an Israeli tank as he was filming demolitions of homes. (I wonder if there are any plans to bulldoze the home where the bomber's family lived? Since he came from Derby that might be a bit tricky.)

Out of the limelight, over the last few days, those killed by Israeli forces have included a two year old child, as well as a fair number of pre-adolescents. No doubt the people responsible for those killings have have been to memorial services in their time. That's a "link"?


05 May 03 - 10:11 AM (#946202)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang

"Linked to the International Solidarity Movement" means that they went along to a memorial service for Rachel Corrie. (McGrath)

Much more than that it seems: Bombers posed as peace activists (from the Guardian)

Since the ISM explicitely "recognize(s) the Palestinian right to resist Israeli violence and occupation via legitimate armed struggle" it is no wonder that they attract such people too.

Wolfgang


05 May 03 - 12:07 PM (#946259)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Is there any group of people in the world, other than the Palestinians, who anyone would say "they have no right to defend themselves against a foriegn occupier"?

Since it was the actions of the German government during WWII that are cited as being the reason the Palestinians are being removed from their homes, and since it appears that all of the Palestinians are going to be chased out of Israel and the occupied territories, I think Germany should be required to give up an equivalent amount of land to what the Palestinians have had taken from them, to create the Palestinian homeland. I'm sure that Wolfgang won't mind giving up his home to make room for a family of displaced Palestinians.


05 May 03 - 12:13 PM (#946262)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

And if they'd applied to join a kibbutz as a cover for their trip to Israel, would that have been seen as a link between suicide bombing and the Kibbutz movement?


05 May 03 - 01:24 PM (#946303)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker

CarolC-No one denies that the Palestinian people have a right to self-defense. Most people deny that the murder of innocents by terrorists is in any way similar to self-defense. If the Palestinians limited themselves to legitimate military targets, they might have more sympathy.


05 May 03 - 01:43 PM (#946321)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

I don't think so, Forum Lurker. They get plenty of criticism for targeting IDF forces as well. And there's just no way they can kill IDF forces without serious retaliation from the Israeli Government. I think that no matter what they do, short of just dissappearing into the mist like the Tuatha De Danann, they will be criticized and villified for it.


05 May 03 - 01:44 PM (#946322)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang

I'm sure that Wolfgang won't mind giving up his home to
make room for a family of displaced Palestinians.
(Carol)

You wouldn't expect me to respond to this type of argumentation, wouldn't you?

Wolfgang


05 May 03 - 01:47 PM (#946324)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

I have no idea, Wolfgang. I think my post was a legitimate response to your post just preceding it.


05 May 03 - 01:49 PM (#946325)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang

The reason some including me are a bit suspiciuos of the ISM is that this movement calls itself 'international' but is actually Palestinian-led.

This suspicion doesn't include the motives of many activists which I believe to be sincere.

Wolfgang


05 May 03 - 02:02 PM (#946337)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

The reason some including me are a bit suspiciuos of the ISM is that this movement calls itself 'international' but is actually Palestinian-led.

This statement implies that all Palestinian-led organizations, and all Palestinians, are terrorists, and are not to be trusted. That, just by virtue of being Palestinians, they automatically have no credibility. How do you think that sort of attitude would be recieved if it was directed at Jews? There are certainly Jewish led terrorist organizations, and organizations that have an agenda that is antithetical to human rights, including a sigificant faction whithin the Israeli government.

Should we determine that no Jewish-led organizations should be trusted because some of them have bad agendas? I don't think so. So it seems like a pretty vicious double standard to automatically discount anything that is led by Palestinians for no reason other than that they are Palestinians.


05 May 03 - 02:05 PM (#946339)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang

I have no idea, Wolfgang. I think my post was a legitimate response to your post just preceding it.

I have not the slightest idea what you are talking about, Carol.

I had posted a minor correction to a statement by McGrath. (First sentence). Then I had posted what I think might attract suicide terrorists in the published basic paper of the ISM (Second sentence).

What in those two sentences has led you to your post?

Wolfgang


05 May 03 - 02:09 PM (#946345)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang

So it seems like a pretty vicious
double standard to automatically discount anything that is led by Palestinians for no reason other than that they are Palestinians.


That's complete rubbish. I have neither said so not do I think so. But any organisation that is led by one party in a conflict makes me suspicious. That has nothing to do with Palestinian or not.

My God, Carol, just for a change, can you try to respond to what I am actually posting and not to what you think I may be thinking. That would make it more easy.

Wolfgang


05 May 03 - 02:10 PM (#946347)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

What in those two sentences has led you to your post?

It was this bit:

Since the ISM explicitely "recognize(s) the Palestinian right to resist Israeli violence and occupation via legitimate armed struggle" it is no wonder that they attract such people too.

Why shouldn't the Palestinians resist Israeli violence? Wouldn't you resist violence from a foriegn occupier in your country? Would that make you a terrorist?


05 May 03 - 02:15 PM (#946350)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Sorry if I've misinterpreted anything you've said Wolfgang. But I'm having trouble seeing in what way what you're saying isn't discriminatory toward Palestinians. Please enlighten me on that one.


05 May 03 - 02:35 PM (#946364)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang

Carol, read my sentence again. If that doesn't help you to see that in that sentence isn't anything discriminatory about Palestinians (and that in that sentence I have nothing said (nor even meant to allude to) relating to your final questions in your post of 05 May 03 - 02:10 PM) any further explanation will not help to enlighten you.

Wolfgang


05 May 03 - 02:44 PM (#946371)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

I remain in the dark on that one, Wolfgang. But I guess that's my problem and not yours. If you say you don't hold disriminatory ideas about Palestinians, I'll just take your word for it.


05 May 03 - 03:29 PM (#946391)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

No one denies that the Palestinian people have a right to self-defense.

I want to address this one a little further. Not only are they denied the "right" to self defense, they are also denies the means for self defense. They aren't allowed to have a military, so anyone who does anything in defense of Palestine is called a terrorist. They aren't allowed to have weapons. There is no way the Palestinians can wage a legitimate war against their occupier, which is abundantly armed with the latest high tech weaponry, when they aren't even allowed to have any weapons at all. And when the government of another country tries to provide them with weapons, the governments of the US and Israel accuse the other countries of terrorism. So just how do you propose they should conduct their "self defense" under these circumstances?


05 May 03 - 03:53 PM (#946403)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

I clicked to read a thread about defining anti-Semitism. Instead, it's been taken over by CarolC's usual agenda. Bye.


05 May 03 - 03:53 PM (#946404)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Bye


05 May 03 - 04:59 PM (#946442)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

I'd take it that the "International" in "Internatuinal Solidarity Movement" has the same implication as it has in regard to the International Brigade in the Spanush Civil War - meaning that it is where people from other countries can get involved in a struggle. I can't see that the term would imply anything particular about its leadership structure.

And that quote where it says that the ISM "recognize(s) the Palestinian right to resist Israeli violence and occupation via legitimate armed struggle" - surely the crucial word is "legitimate", which would exclude terror attacks on civilians. Given that proviso, while it is not a pacifist position, it is one which is actually consistent with international law. After all, the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza by Israel is in breach of numerous Security Council resolutions.

The underlying factor beneath the drifting into specifics in this thread is that opposition to Israeli policies, especially occupation and repression, but also including the denial of a right of return to Palestinians, in no way implies anti-semitism. However one of the effects of the claim that opposition to Israel does imply anti-semitism is to make it easier for anti-semitism to crawl back into the light. It blurs the distinctions, and that, I would suggest, is one reason why the claim is often made.


05 May 03 - 05:19 PM (#946455)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker

CarolC-I hope that you are not defending the actions of Palestinian terrorist organizations on the basis that they don't have an army. Blacks in South Africa didn't have an army, and they didn't win their independence through the indiscriminate massacre of Afrikaaners and the "colored" population. Terrorism is neither moral nor effective; rather it encourages tactics which lead to more Palestinian civilian deaths, and entrenches both sides too deeply to move.


05 May 03 - 05:23 PM (#946456)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

How did the Blacks in South Africa win their independence, Forum Lurker?


05 May 03 - 06:04 PM (#946482)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: NicoleC

There were certainly anti-apartheid terrorists organizations, but in retrospect they don't seem to have been any more effective than Palestinian or Israeli terrorism at bringing about peace and social change.

In the case of South Africa, I'm not sure we can entirely credit the passive resistance movement either. World opinion was brought to bear against South Africa, which gave the anti-apartheid activists a boost. Given the prevailing anti-Arab sentiment in the West and the US's unconditional support of Israel even when Israel's government acts against international law, it sees unlikely that the Palestians will be able to repeat the astounding success seen in South Africa.


05 May 03 - 06:08 PM (#946487)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

World opinion was brought to bear against South Africa, which gave the anti-apartheid activists a boost. Given the prevailing anti-Arab sentiment in the West and the US's unconditional support of Israel even when Israel's government acts against international law, it sees unlikely that the Palestians will be able to repeat the astounding success seen in South Africa.

This is pretty much what I was thinking.


05 May 03 - 06:26 PM (#946504)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: McGrath of Harlow

"Given the prevailing anti-Arab sentiment in the West" - if you leave aside the USA I wouldn't really think that anti-Arab sentiment is particularly prevailing.

Of course the USA outweighs everyone else, but it'd perhaps be more accurate really to say "prevailing anti-Arab sentiment in the USA". I'm not sure if the expression "the West" really has too much current applicability.


05 May 03 - 06:54 PM (#946528)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST, heric

I don't know what you mean by "prevailing anti-Arab sentiment in the USA," and I wouldn't accept it at face value. Does this mean that greater than fifty percent of United States citizens would like to "kill'em all," or does it mean something more specific?


05 May 03 - 07:37 PM (#946555)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

CarolC-I hope that you are not defending the actions of Palestinian terrorist organizations on the basis that they don't have an army.

To be honest, if the internationals aren't going to be allowed in the Occupied Territories any longer, I think it's pretty much over for the Palestinians in Israel and the Occupied Territories. I think we'll be seeing them all gone from there within the next ten years if they don't start getting a lot more international support, and support from the US very soon. As far as I can see, the presence of internationals was their only hope.


05 May 03 - 10:15 PM (#946650)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker

CarolC-You didn't answer my question. Do you or do you not consider terrorist attacks a valid and moral tool for the Palestinian people? Further, why do you think that things are going to change considerably from the way they have been in the last 30+ years?


05 May 03 - 10:33 PM (#946656)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

CarolC-You didn't answer my question. Do you or do you not consider terrorist attacks a valid and moral tool for the Palestinian people?

I do not consider any attacks against civilians a valid or moral tool for anyone to use against another people, whether it's Palestinians who are doing it, or the IDF. If the Palestinians attack military personnel, in the absence of a "recognised" military of their own, I don't think I would categorize them as "terrorists".

Further, why do you think that things are going to change considerably from the way they have been in the last 30+ years?

What makes you think what I said means I think anything is going to change? The expulsion of all Palestinians from Israel and the Occupied Territories looks to me like nothing more than the completion of a process that was started even before the inception of the State of Israel. The change would be if this process were to be stopped before it is completed.


05 May 03 - 10:37 PM (#946659)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Let me rephrase this:

"If, in defense of their homes, their land, or their citizens, the Palestinians attack Israeli military personnel, and they do it in the absence of a "recognised" military of their own, I don't think I would categorize them as "terrorists"."


05 May 03 - 11:54 PM (#946686)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk

Actually, anyone who deliberately uses terror to intimidate and control and drive out other people IS, in my opinion, a terrorist. This means that the following have been terrorists at various times in the recent past, and probably will be again:

Palestinian suicide bombers.

The Israeli Defence Forces and Police.

The USA Armed Forces.

Al Queda.

Hammas.

Saddam Hussein.

Hezbollah.

Islamic Jihad.

The Tamil Tigers.

The Sri Lankan Defence Forces.

The Taliban.

The Northern Alliance.

And so on, and so on, and so on....wherever you find innocent (or guilty) blood being spilled wantonly...there you have found terrorism.

The pot, as usual, is calling the kettle black. They're both black.

- LH


06 May 03 - 02:21 AM (#946737)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: DougR

U.S.A Armed Forces, L. H.? That's quite a reach, isn't it? Terrorists? Why did you leave out the British? The Polis? The Australians? They were all involved, as well as forty plus other nations in the recent conflict in Iraq.

DougR


06 May 03 - 03:06 PM (#947136)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker

DougR-The fact that you immediately assume Little Hawk was talking about Iraq suggests to me a guilty conscience. I think that you can find many cases where American armed forces have used terror tactics, including our wars (Vietnam springs to mind) and occupations.


06 May 03 - 03:40 PM (#947177)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang

Vietnam? 'In the recent past'?

Wolfgang


06 May 03 - 08:30 PM (#947408)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

Geez, people. You want recent terrorism? This is what the White House did when people were demanding a Sept 11 probe. Cheney even threatened to nuke an American city if we 'took resources away from the war against terrorism':

Admitted American Terrorism

Simple fear-based conditioning. Put an electric grid under a box full of mice, randomly feed them shocks, and they quit responding. They shut down psychologically. That is what has been done to the citizens of the US. We are surrounded by empty concentration camps just waiting for us, our leaders have passed legislation to kill us for any reason whatsoever, yet we just sit and let the monsters move among us. We have been terrorized into a state of near catalepsy.


06 May 03 - 09:45 PM (#947452)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

...Eighty-one nations are represented among the World Trade Center's dead - Israel is not one of these nations even though approximately 1200 of its citizens worked there. As if that wasn't enough, an instant messaging firm in Israel, named Odigo, received warnings about the towers two hours before the attacks. Everyone who points out the wrongdoings of Israel is immediately labeled 'anti-Semitic'...

Story

So, is this true? 1,200 Israelis worked in the WTC, but they all stayed home on Sept 11? I still don't know what 'anti-semitic' means, which is why I asked on the first post of this thread, but this...this makes it look like Israel (in conjuction with US authorities) did the 9-11 job.


06 May 03 - 11:30 PM (#947491)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City

Dreaded Guest is propagating vicious, anti-Semitic lies that have been dispelled many times.

Here is the Urban Legends website on it.

Contrary to the vicious, anti-Semitic lies of the Dreaded Guest, there were Jews and Israelis among the dead on 9/11. I knew two of them personally.


06 May 03 - 11:54 PM (#947498)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

Yeah, well I knew the Odigo thing had been questioned, but this article was the first time I saw mention that no Israelis died in the attack. Not Jews...Israelis. I'm just asking, bud. I'd have to see an article verifying Israelis died in the WTC now, because how could the writer of the piece I linked to make that claim if it weren't true? Pretty bold. Pretty amazing, too, if there were 1,200 working there (Israelis) and none died. I have no knowledge on this one way or the other. I'd need to see the proof to refute this. But I tend to doubt that ALL the 1,200 people of ANY group would get the warning, so you're probably right. But show me an article or something. Put up or shut up. And asking about this doesn't make me an anti-semite, does it?


07 May 03 - 01:11 AM (#947541)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: DougR

Forum Lurker: " Many examples?" Perhaps you would cite one!

DougR


07 May 03 - 01:20 AM (#947549)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

Israeli killed in WTC

OK, so one Israeli died in the WTC from what I can find. The link above is as credible as your Urban Legends thing, but this link does refer to several pertinent articles in NYC and Jerusalem papers. All those Israelis working in the WTC and only one died?

Itzak Rabin was killed right after he apologized for Israel's hand in helping to create Hamas. The Israeli govt engages in terrorism, same as the US govt. The Israeli secret police knew 9-11 was on the way and warned the appropriate people. Either that or Israelis tend to oversleep and not take their jobs very seriously. I find it rather unfriendly that the Mossad DIDN'T WARN THE 3,000 WHO DIED, TOO.

And I'm not bashing Jews...just another fascistic govt dabbling in social engineering via terrorism.


07 May 03 - 01:52 AM (#947563)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: DougR

Dreaded Guest: someday you may prove to be Jesus Christ returned to judge all who remain on earth. If that proves to be the case, I will be most regretfull for what I am about to say. But friend, I do think you are a bit overboard on your theories. If you are serious, and really believe most of the stuff you post, I am a bit concerned for you. Did you see the movie, "A Beautiful Mind?" I can't help but wonder ...

I don't question for a minute your right to express your ideas, but I can't imagine anyone (excepting possibly Bobert) accepting them.

DougR


07 May 03 - 03:25 AM (#947605)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: JudyR

I'm suffering from mind fog due to illness and I haven't got the patience to sit and re-read or go through all the transmutations of this thread. So forgive me if I miss all the points.

As a Jew who is antiwar and anti-Sharon, I have never once been accused of being a self-hating Jew, and -- at least where I live, in L.A. in America, and sometimes on the web -- I have to say I rarely hear of anti-Israel people being accused of being anti-semitic. I feel a bit sensitive about overuse of the term "anti-Israel," and prefer "anti-Sharon." Perhaps it's more prevalent in Europe.

McGrath, you make a good point when you say: "...one of the effects of the claim that opposition to Israel does imply anti-semitism is to make it easier for anti-semitism to crawl back into the light. It blurs the distinctions, and that, I would suggest, is one reason why the claim is often made."

I had been just about to post that when anti-semitism began to rear its ugly head all over Europe again a year or so ago, and especially France (as it does periodically every 30 years or so), the points were made that many of these types were blurring (is confusing too mild a word?) the Israeli position with all Jews, and their rhetoric incited the ignorant. That's how it spreads (I guess you already said it "makes it easier for anti-semitism to crawl back into the light).

And that is what becomes to me a danger whenever people talk virulently anti-Israel.   

As for Dreaded Guest, I'm afraid that "anti-Jewish" is indeed being bigoted, and I'm not going to sit and split finite points on this, whether or not it's literally "racist." As Jews on here have tried to explain, Judaism is more than a religion -- always has been as much about a culture and ethnicity. Thus, someone like me who hasn't been to temple regularly since she was a child, and considers herself agnostic, still is "a Jew." And yeah, if you're getting prohibited from buying a house or staying in a hotel because of your last name or appearance, it wouldn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference whether one "chose" to be a Jew or not.   

Forum Lurker and Bev and Jerry and others already made the point: criticizing "A" Jew isn't anti-semitic, criticizing Jews as a group, is (forgive me if we've already moved on from this...but I do think these distinctions have alluded some people).

Dreaded Guest: Your last bit, protesting that you are "not bashing Jews," but suggesting a link between the World Trade Center and Jews (even if you "meant" Israelis), just veered way across the line I draw for myself. If you're not anti-semitic yet, you're on the path that many of ducks walk.


07 May 03 - 08:40 AM (#947757)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

I'm glad to hear that you've not had to deal with any negative repercussions from your anti-Sharon stance, JudyR. Maybe it's not so much a problem where you live, or maybe it's not as much of a problem now as it used to be.

Here's what Marc H. Ellis, Professor of American and Jewish Studies at Baylor University had to say about the problem in 2001:

On The Rabbis and the Future of Jewish Life


07 May 03 - 09:03 AM (#947769)
Subject: Attention: Joe Offer
From: GUEST,Kol Baseder (Lo)

I have no problem with rational debates about Israel, anti-Semitism, etc. However, respect for free speech does not mean that you need to allow Mudcat to be used by anti-Semites, or any other kind of hate-mongers, to spread their vicious, and disproven, lies.

Case in point, Dreaded Guest and his posts regarding Jews, Israelis and the World Trade Center on 9/11.

I, for one, find it very disturbing that you allow Mudcat for such purposes.


07 May 03 - 10:33 AM (#947826)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang

Kol,
most, if not all, of us just don't take Dreaded Guest serious any longer. When (s)he came first here, a couple of times I have looked at the links (s)he has given for backup and whenever I was in a position to judge I found them full of lies, distortions and inaccuracies. Since then I have stopped reading anything (s)he links to for the level of garbage is so high that I don't want to look for the occasional nugget of solid information hidden there.

Mostly, I even do not read the posts of DG. Most of us have given up answering to her/him at all. That should not be seen as consent, just as a lack of want of interaction with DG.

Wolfgang


07 May 03 - 11:10 AM (#947847)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

There you go again. I began this thread asking what anti-semitism is. Really wanting to know. I've been careful to not pass judgement, and when I finally did, it was to criticize the Nazi Ariel Sharon. Not criticizing Israelis, not criticizing Jews, but criticizing a murdering terrorist. And now I'm an anti-semite. So my ever-evolving meaning of 'anti-semite' now means someone who criticizes a mass-murderer who claims to be a Jew.

And I run across an article which uses the term 'anti-semitic' and quote it here, and THAT makes me anti-semitic. Geez.

What I've learned so far on this thread:
1) The dictionary describes Arabs as being semites, too, yet Israelis kill Arabs and then criticize anyone who questions this murder.
2) No one (not even Jews) can explain WHY they must be Jewish. I say it's a belief system, but some say they have no choice in the matter...they're born that way. They call themselves a race. But they're not...it's a VOLUNTARY belief system. Calling someone anti-semitic may be a way of hiding behind the 'race card'.
3) To rise in certain parts of the Jewish religion you must have certain genetic qualifications. Just like in Hitler's Aryan Germany. No one will discuss this topic further. Seems touchy. Seems hypocritical, too.
4) Someone said 'anti-semitism' is an example of an ad hominum argument...meant to divert attention away from the matter under discussion. This seems to be the case, because I just mentioned an article about no Israelis dying in the WTC even though 1,200 worked there. I asked if it was true (innocent and sincere question), and I was attacked as anti-semitic by people who haven't looked into it. Couple of people tried to equate Jews with Israelis, but they know better.

It seems, in adding this all up, that Jews are reluctant to let 'outsiders' get too close. Hence the 'anti-semitic' label for anone who asks questions. That's all I can conclude after 150+ posts and responses. Couldn't really care less what any of you lobotomites think of my analysis process. It's turning out to be pretty ugly, though. Look at the 4 points above again. Not pretty at all.

Another 9-11 / Israeli link, for what it's worth


07 May 03 - 11:27 AM (#947865)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,heric

No, its argumentum ad hominy that's culturally based


07 May 03 - 01:43 PM (#947968)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Don Firth

GUEST,Kol Baseder (Lo), it is that nature of Mudcat to allow free and open debate. Any suppression of viewpoints is, obviously, censorship, and apart from deletion of personal insults and abuse, it simply isn't practiced here. It is essentially in the same spirit with which the American Civil Liberties Union endeavors to defend freedom of speech for all individuals and groups, no matter how offensive the individual or group may be. You cannot have true freedom of speech if you allow suppression of unpopular viewpoints. In fact, in this day and age, that direct path to tyranny is like the many-headed hydra, and must be fought wherever it attempts to appear.

If you spend much time around Mudcat, you become familiar with the viewpoints of the people who post here regularly, and you can pick and chose who you feel are worth reading. There are some who have viewpoints diametrically opposed to my own whom I read, because their posts seem to be well thought out and they quote their sources. I am sufficiently open-minded (although, I am sure there are those here who would disagree) be willing to changing my views if they can convinced that I am wrong and they are right. Thus, one learns, and I am always open to learning.

But there are others who are ill-informed, or whose beliefs are so locked in that the best they can do is sit back and make snide remarks or try to refute a well-reasoned post by slapping a label on the poster with no attempt to offer an equally well-reasoned counter-argument. And, of course there are a few like Dreaded Guest who are locked into posting long screeds about fancied worldwide conspiracy theories who are a total waste of time to ever bother reading. Some time back, I wasted a ridiculous amount of time and energy trying to set this individual straight about something I have first-hand knowledge of and s/he only read about on some conspiracy web site, but to no avail. So I no longer bother with DG's posts, neither to read them, nor (especially) to waste my time answering them.

Apart from this, I find that I have learned a great deal by reading and participating in these threads. There are some very knowledgeable people here.

Don Firth


07 May 03 - 03:57 PM (#948045)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD

What DG fails to understand is that genetics aside Jews in common with other ancient nations have 'acquired' memories. I am sure it is very difficult for anyone who does not come from a background where they know their identity with certainty, can understand how it feels to be a part of any ancient nation, however it may be defined. He and many others obviously have no idea how it feels to be dispossessed, after all the Jews were thrown out of a much larger area than the one that is now called Israel. It is very trendy in these modern times for people to talk about the rights of the Aborigine, Native American, etc., but despite the Jewish nation being dispossessed for thousands of years we are still having to justify the fact that we want a land where we feel we can belong without being killed & tortured for our beliefs. Most Jewish Israelis are perfectly happy to live alongside non-Jewish Israelis. They simply want peace & to know that they won't be killed when they are going about their ordinary lives. Has anyone ever thought that it has become quite trendy to give other disposed nations their lands & rights back, so what is different for the Jews?

Jews all over the world raise money that benefits all Israelis, no matter whether they be Palestinian or not. This fact seems to be kept very quiet when Jews are being berated.

As for Anti-semitism, that is a many headed monster. It is just as relevant against a single person, as against a Nation. Surely it is not anti-semitic to disagree with a person simply because they are Jewish? However to launch an attack against any person or nation only because they are Jewish must surely be anti-semitism. Also it would be considered as racist if derogatory remarks were made against anyone with a black skin, despite the fact that their ancestors did not come from any particular 'race', but would have come from the huge continent that is Africa. So is it any less racist to discriminate against a Jew, or make remarks that could be deemed to be racist, as opposed to a black person?


07 May 03 - 05:24 PM (#948111)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

Seems you folks who question me just prove my points. AggieD, you talk about the extended group that is the Jews, then you talk about criticism of Jews being racist. So, by criticizing a mass-murderer like Sharon I criticize all Jews by extension, and then, by extension of the insane argument that Jews are a race, I am a 'racist' for criticizing Sharon. Incredible.

I admire the tenacity with which Jews present their single-minded arguments, but they are no longer just THEIR arguments. Israel is now benefitting from the US presence in the Mid East, and Americans are going to demand answers. And screaming 'anti-semitic' at Americans who question won't help the situation. Find some new tactics.


07 May 03 - 05:48 PM (#948123)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Has anyone ever thought that it has become quite trendy to give other disposed nations their lands & rights back, so what is different for the Jews?

Can you cite examples of places where it has become the "trend" to displace people in order to give native peoples their land back?


07 May 03 - 06:58 PM (#948156)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker

DougR-I don't know where you got the quote "many examples," but if you are referring to American terrorism, I will mention the napalm bombings in Cambodia, the American occupation of the Phillipines, the entire history of U.S. dealings with Amerindians, and "Operation Shock and Awe" as being terroristic, all by the definition of terrorism in the Patriot Act.

DG-You almost had us convinced that maybe you weren't an anti-semite, and then you had to go and ruin it with a stereotyping sentence: "I admire the tenacity with which Jews present their single-minded arguments." While criticizing Sharon doesn't make you a bigot, lumping all Jews into a single block certainly does. To clarify a few misconceptions you have, I will state that in no aspect of Judaism is a Jewish bloodline necessary. Even the Ultra-Orthodox will accept converts. While Judaism as a religion is a voluntary belief system, the ethnic and cultural traditions associated with Judaism are, like all traditions, hereditary.


07 May 03 - 07:57 PM (#948190)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

So stereotyping makes you an anti-semite? Such crap. Jews WANT to be lumped into a group. Look at the responses just from this thread for proof. And you can't ask to be considered a group and then feign offense when a certain amount of stereotyping results. And you can't advance to certain offices within the Jewish church unless your pedigree is right. Racism.


07 May 03 - 08:30 PM (#948206)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: JudyR

Carol C, I did read that article and found it thought-provoking, but don't have time to go into it this minute. I hear what the Rabbi is saying.

But on the other matters, as liberal (and even radical) as I have been in my day, I can sniff out anti-semitism when I hear it.

I think maybe I'll heed the advice of some others on here, and stop taking DG seriously. As I said before, his duck walk and talk is enough for me.


07 May 03 - 08:54 PM (#948217)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks

CarolC: Rhodesia/Zimbabwi (whites), Kosovo (Serbians), Vietnam (the ethnic Chinese), Northern Iraq (the Arabs by the Kurds), Northern Poland (Germans)...want more?


07 May 03 - 08:59 PM (#948220)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Yes, artbrooks. Can you point me to some background for the places you've mentioned please?


07 May 03 - 09:12 PM (#948228)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks

I could, but won't. All of these are very well known.


07 May 03 - 09:19 PM (#948232)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Ok artbrooks. I'll see what I can find myself. Would you be willing to give up your home so the American Indians can have their land back?


07 May 03 - 09:44 PM (#948249)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

"...I can SNIFF OUT anti-semitism when I HEAR it." I think that's my favorite definition so far. Kind of sums up the logic behind the slur.


07 May 03 - 10:12 PM (#948272)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Ok, Artbrooks. I haven't looked into all of your examples but I did check out the Northern Poland one. I think you have misunderstood my question.

AggieD said, "it has become quite trendy to give other disposed nations their lands & rights back". Using the words "has become" suggests a new or recently started trend. The expulsion in Northern Poland was in 1945. I was asking her for examples of situations that support her contention that such practices have "become quite trendy", rather than places where it used to be trendy. I'll check out your other examples as time allows, but I don't think the Northern Poland example supports what AggieD was saying.


07 May 03 - 10:36 PM (#948289)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks

CarolC: my field of choice is Early Modern European history...and 1945 is recent. The Vietnam one began with unification in 1975-most of the boat people were/are ethnic Chinese. Kosovo was about 1999 to present and the other two are happening right now.


07 May 03 - 10:44 PM (#948295)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Thanks artbrooks.


07 May 03 - 11:02 PM (#948308)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

Am I an anti-semite for posting this?:

ATHENS – Nothing could be better designed to undermine the coalition's promise that Iraq's oil should benefit its own people than Israel's proclaimed wish to "reopen" a long-unused pipeline from Iraq's Kirkuk oil fields to Israel's Mediterranean port of Haifa...

Story


07 May 03 - 11:12 PM (#948314)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks

DG, as just about everyone who has felt it worthwhile has told you, criticizing Israel is not anti-semitism. Israelis feel just as free to criticize their government as Americans do theirs, and American, British, French, Russian, Canadian, and so forth Jews are just as willing to do so...and please don't waste any more time on the "concentration camps are ready and waiting" BS.


08 May 03 - 01:23 AM (#948361)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

Why do you give advice but no definition? Still no precise definition of anti-semitism. That's because Jews WANT it that way.

But evasions on this topic won't stretch much further. Americans just died so Israel could steal Iraqi oil? Not acceptable.

America is now doing clean-up work in Israel's backyard. I'm pretty tolerant compared to the 'Jews killed Jesus' crowd around me, but once the body bags start coming back here because Israel wanted free oil, no one'll be able to keep a lid on things. Maybe that's the way someone wants it.


08 May 03 - 01:32 AM (#948366)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker

DG-You see, persistent stereotyping like "Jews WANT to lumped together" or "That's because Jews WANT it that way" aren't going to get your claims taken seriously. If you want a definition, I can give you one, and if I change it later, it's because I just finished writing a term paper and it's well past my normal bedtime at the moment. Anti-Semitism is holding and/or stating views prejudiced against Jews as a group. Now, one last time, for the record, there are no positions in the Jewish clergy which require a particular heredity. There aren't all that many positions in the Jewish clergy at all: The rabbi, and possibly the cantor and the sofer. None of these positions require any heredity, merely being a practicing Jew properly trained in that profession. I would tell you to get your facts straight before posting, but then we'd never hear from you again. Wait, I've got an idea.

Get your facts straight before posting.


08 May 03 - 05:46 AM (#948472)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD

It just goes to prove my point about people not having the acquired memories to build their lives on, DG & CarolC are such excellent examples of this, that we should all pity the fact that they are unable to see beyond propaganda & downright lies that are spread by other people with meglomania tendencies.

To those of us that take note & build upon what has happend in the past 1945 is very modern history. This is why the Jews will survive over many thousands of years to come, when those people without the conviction & beliefs will just fade away.

DG Rabbis etc. have to train at some form of seminary/college before they become a Rabbi, in exactly the same way as bona fide priests do. The trouble with so many of your southern american religious leaders is that they are simply untrained meglomaniacs, who have never been through any formal training, and use their vituperative minds to drone out filth against those who are different from them.

My word of the day is Meglomania!!


08 May 03 - 06:50 AM (#948499)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Pied Piper

Give me a trained meglomaniac any time.

PP


08 May 03 - 07:31 AM (#948514)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD

At least a trained meglomaniac knows how to put his/her thoughts in reasoned order before implementing them ;)


Aggie


08 May 03 - 10:40 AM (#948654)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

Aggie and Lurker,

You're both trying to defend a corrupt status quo. Go back a hundred posts or so Lurker to the post about genetic requirements within the religion. It's there and I checked into it and its true. Jews require a geneology for certain offices. And go back to the first post for the definition of 'semite'. That's where I began, with the dictionary definition. Arabs are semites, too, yet you choose to narrow it to just include Jews. I find it odd the Jewsish church doesn't censure members who feel free to scream 'anti-semite' at the drop of a hat. Strong control in all areas except that one? You can't eat a ham sandwich but you can blast thousands of well-meaning preachers when you feel like it? You have to follow thousands of 'rules', but you can make up your own definition of anti-semitism as the need arises? Seems the church ENCOURAGES confusion on this.

This thread made me think of Clarence Thomas, for some reason. During his confirmation hearings in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Thomas couldn't answer some of the standard legal questions asked of anyone in his position. Biden and Kennedy and the rest were pretty shocked, but they persevered and asked the questions, and Thomas eventually said he would have to 'apply natural law' to one of the hypothetical situations described. Then he explained natural law as being this vague thing he could 'sniff out when he heard it'...something like that. I mean, he was imminently unqualified to sit on the Supreme Court, yet there he was, saying 200+ years of legal precedent took a back seat to his gut feeling. Pitiful. Biden should have gaveled the proceedings closed and asked for the next candidate. But instead they went on until finally Thomas said he was beginning to think he was in a 'high tech lynching'. He played the race card. Too stupid to get ahead without that being placed on the fast-track, but smart enough to know he'd get special treatment by pointing out he was black. And to their eternal discredit, the Committee gave in. And Thomas has never written an opinion to my knowledge...he just votes like Rehnquist tells him to, and Clarence Thomas appointed a Nazi to the White House because American Senators didn't stick to the principle of equality.

For some reason, that's what this 'anti-semitism' talk makes me think of. Jews seem to want a blank check they can pull out any time they're at a loss in an argument, and 'anti-semite' is that check. And if Jews are free to make up their own definition of anti-semite, then so am I. Go back to the definition of 'semite' in the first post. It includes Arabs. So if you are not AS concerned about the Arabs being murdered at Guantanamo as you are about Jews dying, then you are an anti-semite. And that's not hair-splitting. It's literal. Figured out by someone who didn't have the benefit of rabbinical brainwashing.


08 May 03 - 10:54 AM (#948665)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

DG and CarolC are such excellent examples of this, that we should all pity the fact that they are unable to see beyond propaganda & downright lies

AggieD, you are making quite a lot of assumptions about me. You don't know enough about me to make a statement like that. Do you think I hold the same opinions as Dreaded Guest? If so, why? If you can show me where I have endorsed propaganda and downright lies, I might revise what I'm about to say.

I suspect that you are one of those people who attribute the actions of one person in a particular group to all of the members of that group. Oh, wait! That makes you a bigot and/or a racist!

Has anyone ever thought that it has become quite trendy to give other disposed nations their lands & rights back, so what is different for the Jews?

I actually find this statement by you to be quite offensive on many levels. First of all, it's an incredibly glib way of talking about situations that involve a lot of pain and suffering for a lot of people.

Secondly, it assumes that the peope you are talking to endorse the instances where people have been displaced to return earlier inhabitants to their former homes.

Thirdly, not only does it assume that we have done that, but also that we do it in order to be "trendy".

Are you of the opinion that all Gentiles are callous, shallow, idiots?

And lastly, if a group of people showed up in your neighborhood with their holy book and told you and your neighbors that they had a claim to your land by virtue of having been chased off it several thousand years ago, and they offered their holy book as proof that God meant for them to have it, would you willingly give it up? I seriously doubt it.


08 May 03 - 12:09 PM (#948712)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie

Pssssst... "My word of the day is Meglomania!!" AggieD, if it's your word for the day, it might be a good idea to spell it correctly.


08 May 03 - 02:04 PM (#948776)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker

DG-No, for the last time, there are no positions within the Jewish clergy that require a particular descent. If you have any RELIABLE evidence to the contrary, feel free to post it. If it's just the same anti-Semitic BS you have been spouting all over this thread, don't post it. The reason "The Jewish church" doesn't censure people is that there is none. Judaism is a non-hierarchical religion, and possesses no secular authority outside of Israel, and only limited therein. As far as your definition of anti-semite goes, think about the fact that the English language is not internally consistent. Flammable means able to ignite, and the prefix in- usually means a negation. Hence, "in-flammable" means readily ignited?! Likewise, a Semite is someone of Semitic ethnicity, deriving from the Middle East. Anti- means opposed to, but anti-Semite means a person bigoted against Jews.


08 May 03 - 04:10 PM (#948857)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD

OK now the gloves are off guys.

Ebbie I was not aware that Mudcat was also a spelling test. I have seen far worse, I aplogise OOOOOPPS apologise!!!!!!

DG you are talking out of your backside, as FL has said. All you need to do to become a Rabbi in a SYNAGOGUE, not a Church is to go to college & qualify, then as a priest is qualified, & does not need to be a descendent of any other line of christian priests, you may lead a community. If you are thinking of Cohanim or Levys, yes these are descendents of a certain line. These people are not necessarily modern Rabbis. In the UK our Chief Rabbi, comes from an ordinary home, went to a main stream school, where his fellow students were the usual mixture from society. It was his choice to become a Rabbi, & was then elected to his office, because he is good at his job. He in fact started his career in our local synagogue as the headmaster of our religious classes, but I suppose you will say that he must be an excellent indoctrinator, or some other crap.

CarolC I can assure you that I have a very open mind on the situation that now stands in the Middle East. I detest as much as anyone else the murder of innocents, & I have had many arguments with fellow Jews about the injustices that happen. However I am just pointing out to you that Jews, need the right, the same as Kurds, Christians, Moslems, Native Americans, Black or any other people of this world, to know that simply because of their religion or origin or skin colour they will not be persecuted & murdered & need a place where they feel safe. When was the last time you looked at a friend's parent & saw the tattoo mark from a concentration camp on their arm & swore that never again would that be allowed to happen?

As I have said before, all most Israelis & I don't just mean Jews, want is to live in peace.


08 May 03 - 04:27 PM (#948864)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

CarolC I can assure you that I have a very open mind on the situation that now stands in the Middle East.

I'm glad to hear it.

I detest as much as anyone else the murder of innocents, & I have had many arguments with fellow Jews about the injustices that happen.

I'm glad to hear this as well.

However I am just pointing out to you that Jews, need the right, the same as Kurds, Christians, Moslems, Native Americans, Black or any other people of this world, to know that simply because of their religion or origin or skin colour they will not be persecuted & murdered & need a place where they feel safe.

What makes you think I don't already know this?

When was the last time you looked at a friend's parent & saw the tattoo mark from a concentration camp on their arm & swore that never again would that be allowed to happen?

When I was 16 years old. It was my boyfriend's grandmother's tattoo.

As I have said before, all most Israelis & I don't just mean Jews, want is to live in peace.

What makes you think I don't already know this?


08 May 03 - 05:27 PM (#948912)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: DougR

Aggie: I don't believe that peace will ever come between the Palestinians and the Israelis until one or the other of them wins the peace through force. Then the winner will dictate the terms of peace. I said that in this forum long ago, and nothing has happened that causes me to change my mind.

DougR


08 May 03 - 06:04 PM (#948942)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Burke

DG has been harping for a definition in this whole thread that I don't think has been answered. I suggest that when you want a term defined you look the actual word up, not it's components. You may get some of the entomology for your term by breaking it up, but not its real definition. The English language is not always logical. It's not the Jews who hijacked a term. The English language needed a term to describe events happening in the world & anti-semitism is the word coined. I doubt that whoever coined the usage in the 19th century gave a single thought to the fact that Jew<>Semite or that there were semitic people who are not Jewish.

From the Oxford English Dictionary: anti-Semitism Theory, action, or practice directed against the Jews. Hence anti-Semite, one who is hostile or opposed to the Jews; anti-Semitic.

These are the usages cited by OEC
1881 Athenæum 3 Sept. 305/2 The author, apparently an anti-Semite. Ibid., Anti-Semitic literature is very prosperous in Germany. 1882 Athenæum 11 Feb. 184/1 In these days of anti-Semitism. 1935 Economist 24 Aug. 366/1 The Nazi Party stalwarts..have all been leading an anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, anti-Protestant..crusade. 1941 J. S. HUXLEY Uniqueness of Man ii. 50 Germanic nationalism on the one hand and anti-Semitism on the other.

DG, if the word was not anti-Semitism, we'd still have a different one to describe anti Jewishness that is based not on religious belief but some sort of heredity. We'd have it & need it because the phenomena exists. I don't know why you have such a problem with the idea that most of the English speaking world has a common understanding of this word. If you want to communicate with others you use words with the common terminology.


08 May 03 - 06:22 PM (#948955)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks

Burke: the word "anti-semitism" has been defined on this thread more than once...by me in the fifth response, for one, with a direct quote from Webster's New World College Dictionary. DG has his/her own agenda and really isn't interested in facts.


08 May 03 - 06:30 PM (#948960)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie

"peace through force. " Ah, but therein lies the difficulty, DougR. You see, I think that peace brought about by force is not peace at all. It may stifle overt dissent but it does not even begin to imply acquiescence.


AggieD, I just thought since you were making it your word for the day, you might not want to lock it into your memory in that form. The root is 'mega' - and that makes it easy to remember.:)


08 May 03 - 11:23 PM (#949076)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

What tedium. Lurker...YOU do the homework. I said the issue came up in an earlier post, I looked into it and found it had merit. The Jews give preferential treatment to certain Jews with specific genealogies. It's a fact. You sort through the posts. And Aggie, when you said the gloves were I thought you might at last type a sensible sentence (those gloves do get in the way), but its the same old gibberish full of qualifiers. Jews do THIS sometimes and THAT sometimes...blah blah blah

The fact is Israel now wants to steal Iraqi oil. That's fine, but if the oil flows to Haifa and one of my neighbors comes home in a box, this area will then think of the Jews not only as the people who killed Jesus, but also as the people who killed a local. I'm just trying to make up my mind whether Jews are wicked or not before that happens. Simple as that. And I started the discussion with a term that has always mystified me...'anti-semitism'.

Based on what I've read on this thread, I think Jews as a group are no more wicked than any other group, though perhaps more clannish and suspicious. They present themselves as a 'non-proselytizing' group but insist the mother be Jewish. lol. And then (here I go stereotyping again), I've been told all my life how intelligent Jews are, so if I can find SO MANY FLAWS in the ways they defend their belief system in this comparatively short thread, I have to wonder why so many smart people have protected such a hypocritical system for so many thousands of years. I'm personally glad a group who could produce Woody Allen and Sid Ceasar and Mel Brooks, etc have managed to survive. But the hypocrisy...it's coming down to the nut-cutting in America when the general public discovers Americans are dying for Israel's enrichment. I think American Jews are going to have to distance themselves from Israel very publicly. We all know Israel is one of the major terrorist states in the world, and before long I'm afraid 'anti-semitism' in what I guess I'd call the 'traditional' sense of the word could hit America with a vengeance. And again I say someone wants it that way. Not me, but those who would benefit financially.


09 May 03 - 01:07 AM (#949130)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker

DG-For the last time, Jews do not have any such preferential treatment. I have attended the Hebrew Union College school for the rabbinate, and can assure you that no such bias exists. Israel as a country has no desire to steal Iraqi oil; the concern of both the people and the government, two very different entities, is primarily security, not the economy. To even consider the idea that "Jews are wicked" shows you as a bigot. As I said before, even the Ultra-Orthodox will accept converts whose mother was not Jewish. You have not found a single one of the flaws in the Jewish belief system, only holes in your ability to reason. Goodbye, and please get some psychiatric help, if not for your sake, for that of any friends, family members, or co-workers you might possess.


09 May 03 - 01:14 AM (#949136)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: DougR

Ebbie: I respectfully disagree. If you were right, there would have been no end to WWII, right? Seems to me that an armed conflict resulted in the end of the Civil War in our own country. It ended the conflict between Texas and Mexico in 1836. WWI was settled by armed conflict. An instance where armed conflict took place, but there was no permanent settlement was Korea, and it is still festering today. Had McArthur been given free hand, perhaps there would be peace in Korea today. Viet Nam is a different story. Evidently it was never intended that we win that one. Had Johnson listened to Goldwater, there might have been an entirely different ending to that conflict.

DougR


09 May 03 - 02:42 AM (#949162)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

Lurker...Israel is about to profit from American blood. If they do that, they are wicked. They are enemies of America. And Israel is controlled by Jews.

You are one of the laziest debaters I've ever encountered. If you'd bother to go back through this thread you'd see some of the lamest, most inept defenses of Jewish bigotry and racism imaginable. Defenses offered by Jews. I have received enough double-talk to realize that is the REASON the term 'anti-semitism' exists...as a way to double-talk your way out of tight spots and mark people who disagree with your religion. What a sham. Peddle your bigotry to someone who buys it. I've learned all I need to from this thread.


09 May 03 - 06:47 AM (#949215)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD

'Lurker...Israel is about to profit from American blood. If they do that, they are wicked. They are enemies of America. And Israel is controlled by Jews'

DG it would appear that it is actually America & possibly Britain that will most likely profit from Iraqi blood. The American right wing government has made it perfectly clear that they want to keep a presence in Iraq. If this is not to feed the greedy American public with their constant need for cheap oil, then I don't see how you can have the cheek to have a go at Israel. I would call you, as others have, blatantly anti-semitic & bigoted, as you have accused Israel of an action that is totally unproven. Has it ever occured to you to look on the positive side of this rumour, that this may be a way of promoting & securing peace through trade between a reformed Iraq? That idea may be a little naive, but who knows, stranger things happen in this life.


Shabbat Shalom


09 May 03 - 11:59 AM (#949388)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

I'm finished with this topic, Aggie. The people who live around me hate Jews as the people who killed Jesus, and I wanted to plumb a little deeper...make some decisions of my own...before the locals go ballistic. There are no Jews around here, so like a blank slate, I asked for a definition of anti-semitism. I've based my conclusions on that. There are some good Jews and some bad, some good Israelis and some bad...as in all groups and nations. What I expected. But the hijacking of the term 'anti-semitism' by the Jews is unacceptable. Arabs are semites too.

And America will never benefit from the Iraqi oil. A couple dozen companies will benefit, but that'll be personal profit, which they'll turn over into buying more govt influence.

You tout the benefits of an 'educated' clergy and Lurker claims to be part of that educated clergy, but your tag-team ignorance is stupefying. Piping oil from Iraq to Israel will be the worst possible symbolic action imaginable in the Mid East, and we all know it. I gather you're not American, so maybe the article below won't apply to you. But it should disturb American Jews. This is why I came back to this thread...to post this link. Take a look at it.

Jumping on the Bandwagon

You talk about 'right-wing' Americans...well Jews are jumping on the bandwagon, it appears. And the sad thing is THERE IS NO RIGHT AND LEFT WING ANYMORE in America. Just privatized, expanding govt intent on eventually controlling EVERYTHING. The left wing has infiltrated the right and taken control of it, and the left-wing agenda of expanding govt is being turbo-charged by the new right...the neo-cons.

But on the topic of Jews, if the oil flows to Haifa and a local soldier comes home dead from Iraq, the people around me will take it quite personally. And I'll have to decide where I stand...with them or against them. I can only talk generalities to them so long...no Jews aren't inherently evil any more than Baptists, no they didn't kill Jesus, no they're not out to steal your children...but they won't listen to that at the funeral. And afterwards they'll only have one question for any Jews they meet...do you support Israel? If the Jew answers yes, he or she will be in severe trouble. See what I'm getting at? American Jews are going to have to distance themselves from Israeli looting, or that will be the litmus test for a LOT of non-Jewish Americans...do you support Americans dying for the enrichment of Israel?

At least I asked the questions and came to my own conclusions. Shalom to you, too.


09 May 03 - 04:42 PM (#949605)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

the concern of both the people and the government, two very different entities, is primarily security, not the economy

While I agree that the primary concern of most Israelis is security, I don't think I can agree with you that this is the primary concern of the current government. I'd say the primary concern of Sharon and the Likud party is supremacy, and they are willing to pursue supremacy at the expense of security.


09 May 03 - 04:44 PM (#949607)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Ebbie

Dreaded Guest, how do you and your friends feel about the fact that Jesus was a Jew?


09 May 03 - 04:58 PM (#949617)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks

And, if you check it, the Romans killed Jesus, not the Jews.


09 May 03 - 09:53 PM (#949667)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

But it was the priests of Jewish church that controlled the Romans.


09 May 03 - 09:56 PM (#949671)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks

Oh, sure, DG. Judea was an occupied nation. They had about as much control over the Romans as the French did in Paris in 1942.


10 May 03 - 12:16 AM (#949716)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

Hey, someone hijacked my handle for the last post. Haven't been here all evening. Geez...that's kind of like 'false witness' or something.

I won't be posting on this thread anymore. I made my point. Jews follow a chosen belief system. That makes them as fair game as 'fundamentalist preachers' when it comes to ascribing blame, etc. Saying 'Jews are bad' is no different than saying 'Methodists are bad'. Bigotted, but not racial in nature.

Guess I'll have to find a new handle...due for a trade-in anyway. Jews in America better get ready for a lot of political heat in America, given what people are learning about the NeoCons now. Ever since GWBush has been in office it's been open season on 'fundamentalist Christians', but it's starting to look like Jews are really running this nightmare.


10 May 03 - 12:31 AM (#949723)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

Sorry, Ebbie...didn't mean to ignore you. One more post before I stop here.

The folks around me are country people, Bible-belt. Jesus wasn't a Jew to them. I know better, but I don't think they do. And discussions along those lines heat up real fast. I do a lot more reading and research than they do...a priviledge and a luxury for they may not have to the extent I do...so I try not to hold their beliefs against them. As long as they don't try to impose those beliefs on me. They've come to tolerate me pointing out quirks in their thinking, and they certainly point out enough in mine.

There's not much of a religious mix around here, but there IS a racial mix, and we all know our common bond is the Constitution. Look up Rep Ron Paul of Texas. Most conservative voting record in the House, I believe. Wants to repeal the PATRIOT Act, etc. So that's the kind of person we elect, but he's a conservative in the old sense of the word...minimize govt and let communities work to provide for their own...as long as govt LEAVES US ALONE. We'd rather have hard times on our own terms than on Washington's.

Anyway...yeah, Jesus was a Jew. Kind of a 'radical reformer' in my opinion. Sermon on the Mount is great, but then so is Ecclesiastes.


10 May 03 - 02:01 AM (#949746)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk

It's a matter of opinion, DG. (Like most other things...) If someone thinks you are anti-semitic because of what you said, it doesn't matter a fig to them how you define the term "anti-semitic".

This is why these discussions end up with people butting heads so often.

However, I get your point all right.

I think the general viewpoint about who is a Jew and who is not goes this way: If someone's parents are known to be "Jewish", then that someone is also considered to be Jewish by inheritance. Whether they have any religious beliefs or not is entirely another matter! There have been plenty of agnostic and atheist Jews who nevertheless claimed to be Jews. Like Woody Allen, for instance, to name just one famous one. I've known any number of Jews who did not have religious beliefs.

So how about that, eh?

- LH


10 May 03 - 09:55 AM (#949880)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

Oh, one more last thing before I go. I want to thank Joe Offer and Max for not giving into Mudcat's Jewish Lobby (hey there, Kol Beseder)and censoring this thread. It's good to know that, despite the efforts of certain Jews, Mudcat still stands for the American free speech that the Jews have supressed in their control of Bush Administration.


10 May 03 - 10:42 AM (#949918)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

Yeah, LH, I think that's it. And I can see why Jews get nervous about their situation. I've heard people say someone 'looks' Jewsish, and it stuns my neighbors when I point out Captain Kirk and Indiana Jones are Jews. Hopefully that makes them stop and give the matter a second thought the next time. But then I've heard people say others 'look' Irish or Polish, so Jews aren't alone in that boat.

It seems, though, just from the posts I've seen here, that Jews try to cover too many bases. They want 'anti-semitism' to apply just to their religious system (volunatry belief), when semites are people from a geographical area. And Jews get into the whole chromosome thing in some weird argument that they can claim to be a race...endless begattings in the OT. Then they say Hitler was bad because he did that stuff.

I find it HIGHLY amusing that Jews on this thread can't account for the two oddities described above. And in utter frustration, someone has taken over my handle. On a larger scale, I suspect we are seeing the same thing happening with the 'neo-cons' in Washington. lol. What a world.

The last 'Dreaded Guest' post wasn't mine and was probably intended as sarcasm for the monitors of this forum, but it has merit. Look at the heat I've received for just asking one simple question. Can't imagine what those folks had to put up with. This is why I've never registered...hundreds of PM's from pissy Jews because I asked what anti-semitism is? I don't think so. I'll just go back to the anonymous posting here I guess.


10 May 03 - 02:51 PM (#950065)
Subject: Question to Joe Offer
From: GUEST,Kol Baseder (Lo)

This is why I've never registered...hundreds of PM's from pissy Jews because I asked what anti-semitism is? I don't think so.

Joe Offer,

There is much anti-Semitism -- blatant lies and hate-mongering -- in this thread in the postings of Dreaded Guest, or just plain Guest, as he calls himself in the last post.

I fail to see how free speech on Mudcat is advanced by allowing someone to lie and hate-monger.

Would you allow blatant racism and lies about African-Americans to be repeated ad nauseum in the Mudcat Forum the way that Dreaded Guest's blatant anti-Semitism and lies about Jewish people and the Jewish religion have been repeated ad nauseum inthis thread?

I think a forum where issues are debated openly is a wonderful thing. Speaking as a Jewish person, I have no problem with debates about Jewish theology, we Jews debate such issues all the time. I have no problem with debates about Israel and the Palestinians.

I do, however, think that Mudcat should draw a line in the sand and say that racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, etc. will not be tolerated
and that such posts will be removed.

I found Mudcat through a link from another folk music site. One of the things that first attracted me to folk music was its inclusivness; its openness to all people and all cultures.

In my opinion, allowing Mudcat to be used, even if only by one despicable person, as a forum for anti-Semitism, makes me as a Jew, feel unwelcome here.

Kol


10 May 03 - 03:21 PM (#950086)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Little Hawk

Well, Kol, we probably all feel unwelcome here now and then, for a tremendous variety of individual reasons, but should we be afraid to talk about it? I hope not. Talking beats killing people any day, as far as I'm concerned...and it beats refusing to talk to them too.

DG - You now see why it is a good idea to actually register as a member on the forum. If you do that, then no one can pose as you and post stuff that supposedly comes from you, just to cause you trouble.

The other solution, of course, is just to remain totally anonymous, but then how do you make friends and get to know people and have them know you? That's been the best part about Mudcat for me. I have gotten to know some interesting people and it's added much to my life.

- LH


10 May 03 - 04:10 PM (#950099)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest

OK, you win. I see the error of my ways. For some time I've wondered about my conspiracy thesis; thanks for straightening me out.

As for my question as to what is anti-Semitism, I now see that I have exemplified it in these posts.

:) :) :) :)


11 May 03 - 09:43 AM (#950432)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

Don't be so hard on yourself. The Jews didn't present a case here, from what I can see. In fact, many of them were abusive and displayed great intolerance of someone questioning their belief system. Thank you for enlightening us all. Just don't question the Hollywood connection would be my one suggestion. Things seemed to be going fairly smoothly until the movie stars were brought into it. Question the beliefs all you want, but keep your mitts off the box-office.


12 May 03 - 04:25 PM (#951252)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

OK...this is why I asked about anti-semitism. Iraq HAD a middle-class of sorts, but now there is chaos in the country as the US tries to re-install Hussein's old Baath party people to run the country. But the Iraqis aren't buying it, so the US military is demanding all documents on the Baaths be turned over to them so people can be screened (we all know those records will be destroyed so the US can install whoever will be best for business). And then there are these stories:

Twenby bucks a month

More of the same

The twenty dollars a month will become Iraq's new wage. And this will put them in the bottom ten percent in the global economy. So, the US hammered the country, and out of the rubble comes a slave-state which was falsely told their freedom would lead to a better life based on oil wealth. But then there's this, on the topic of oil:

Israeli Booty

So, it appears the US (acting as an extension of the Organized Crime syndicate currently controlling the World Bank and all developed countries), just stole the oil from a predominantly Arab country and is imposing a future of slavery on them while Israel expects to benefit from oil promised to the U.N. for the 'benefit of all Iraqis'.

This seems to add up to the American military being used to turn Arabs into slaves for Israel, so it raises all kinds of questions about who is controlling the American agenda. And given what is in the news now about the Republican 'neo-cons' and their Israeli ties, any thinking American has to wonder what is going on. Are Jews and/or Israelis using the American military to enslave Arabs? Hundreds of Arabs are missing in the American legal system after 9-11, Arabs are being beaten to death at Camp X-Ray in Cuba by Americans, and now Arabs are being paid $20 a month in Iraq while Israel wants to steal Iraqi oil.

I understand not wanting to talk about unpleasant topics, but this is beginning to look suspiciously like outright greed and genocide. To my puzzled eye, at least.


12 May 03 - 04:33 PM (#951258)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

Oh...and when Ariel Sharon first became PM of Israel, he said in a candid interview where he seemed pretty surprised, that GWBush told him once they would be running the show.

GW was Guv of Texas and was scheduled to go to Israel. A reporter asked him why he was going, and he said so he could 'tell all the Jews they're going to hell.' That prompted an emergency visit from Billy Graham who told him to shut up, and it prompted an emergency visit from Bush # 1 who must have laid out part of the 'Big Picture' for Junior. Because when he got to Israel, GW met with Sharon and told him, 'someday I'll be President and you'll be Prime Minister'. Like a freakin' child with a secret. And Sharon seemed genuinely stupefied later on that the 'prediction' had come true.

All this is scripted, folks. And if Bush # 1 told GW years ago about the outcome of future elections, it makes me wonder what else has been orchestrated. Arab slavery?


12 May 03 - 09:24 PM (#951426)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker

DG-Read your own damn stories, and maybe you'll have a less skewed view of events. You're complaining that the U.S. is giving health care workers their first month's wages (the same wage they were payed under Saddam) up front? You only see genocide in the making because that's what you want to see. If you have a psychological need to believe that a global conspriacy exists, I seriously recommend therapy, ideally from a psychiatrist.


13 May 03 - 10:27 AM (#951747)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

Read the second article more closely. The man who was the driver. The twenty bucks a month is enough for two children, yet he was making enough to take care of 16 under the old pay system. The US bombed water, electrical and sewage treatement facilities for the past 12 years. 1.5 million dead Iraqis as a result. And now we suddenly give a damn about 'the children'? Bushit. The medical problems were underscored by the media in the US for 12 years (so the UN population-reduction program could gnaw away at Iraq), and now Iraqis are being slapped in the face with a twenty-dollar bill. All I wonder is who's responsible. The fundamentalist Christians around Bush? Clinton was one too, wasn't he, come to think of it. And old man Bush worships Moloch with his son. The Israelis? The Jews?

People read what they want into stories, and these are mostly 'feel good' pieces to make the world thinks the US is taking care of 'the children'. If not the US, the UN, by golly. Bless 'em. What crap. Twenty bucks a month is the new slave wage in Iraq. You'll make more only if you're one of Hussein's old henchmen and are willing to continue your murderous ways for the occupying forces as they build a new oil pipeline to Haifa.


13 May 03 - 10:28 AM (#951749)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

The medical problems were underscored by the media in the US for 12 years...

Make that 'unreported' rather than 'underscored'


13 May 03 - 12:34 PM (#951839)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker

I find it amazing that you can tie fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist Jews and Moloch worship together as if it made sense. Your ability to distort facts to fit your worldview is almost as extreme as that worldview itself.


13 May 03 - 02:09 PM (#951895)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

GWBush is no Christian. Lots of Israelis say Sharon is no Jew. The two men go through the motions...that's all. If Sharon ever went to the Cremation of Care ceremony at Bohemian Grove in California, where the Bushes go, or if GW ever took part in Moloch worship with Sharon elsewhere, that would explain a lot of things.

Jesus wouldn't have commanded US troops to go forth, cross seas and slaughter civilians for oil and opium. I don't know what the Jews' teachings are on the subject, but Jesus wouldn't have condoned that. Something else is guiding the actions of the two fascists. Simple greed? Earthly power? Or occultism?


13 May 03 - 03:04 PM (#951943)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker

If you didn't think Christians were responsible, WHY THE HELL DID YOU BRING THEM UP?!?!?!?!?


(several deep breaths later)

I'm going to stop responding to you, because I think that you have a genuinely pathological problem, and unless your tactics stop feeding your need for attention, you're never going to get the help you need. Goodbye, and good luck.


13 May 03 - 06:59 PM (#952096)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks

As usual, you have not read your own link. It says the U-S also has begun paying health ministry workers twenty dollars to return to work. Please show me where it says "per month" in this article. This is clearly a simple bride, in spendable money, and has nothing at all to do with salaries.


17 May 03 - 01:50 PM (#954444)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City

Four bombs, some suicide, some car bombs, have gone off in Casablanca, Morocco. So far, at least 24 people have been killed and scores more injured.

Islamic fundamentalists have claimed credit for this as an attack on the Jews. One of the destroyed targets was a Jewish synagogue. Morocco is one the only Arab/Muslim countries without a state history of persecuting Jews. Apparently, that isn't good enough for some in the Arab world.

Note that this was not an attack on Israel. This was an attack on Jews.


17 May 03 - 01:52 PM (#954445)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City

"Morocco is one the only Arab/Muslim countries without a state history of persecuting Jews."

I meant to say: Morocco is one of the only Arab/Muslim countries without a state history of persecuting Jews.


17 May 03 - 02:17 PM (#954463)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Here's the Reuters article on the bombings:

Reuters

I've said in other threads (and I've taken quite a beating for it) that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and the US's support of it, is putting the lives of innocent Americans and Jews all over the world in danger. And many, many people have said that the pre-emptive war on Iraq by the US and the UK would create a lot more terrorism from Islamic extremist, as well as diverting the efforts of the "War on Terrorism" away from the pursuit of al Qaeda, at the expense of the lives of innocent people all over the world.

Looks like maybe we were right.


17 May 03 - 04:05 PM (#954509)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker

CarolC-The people who are truly putting in danger the lives of innocent Americans and Jews all over the world are the Palestinian terrorists. While I agree that the Israeli methods used to try to control the terrorist problem are ineffective and unnecessarily brutal, I have yet to see anyone put forward a proposal whereby the Israeli government can better ensure the security of the Israeli people than the current official policy. If you have a plan that you think would actually work, I am not the only one who would love to hear it.


17 May 03 - 04:15 PM (#954513)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

A very good article from today's NY Times.


17 May 03 - 04:25 PM (#954518)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Forum Lurker, I've posted the answer many times. The Oslo process was working wayyyyyy better than the approach being used by the Likud party. The numbers back me up on this. Israel abandoned the Oslo process before it ever took the steps needed to fulfill its obligations under the agreement it signed. That was a disasterous thing to do, and everyone except the Likud party are suffering because of it.

Trying to place the blame on the Palestinians will accomplish nothing except the deaths of a lot more innocent people. Israel needs to own up to it's own culpability in this matter, something I've never seen it even come close to doing since the death of Rabin. The first thing it needs to do is to remove the settlements and stop the occupation. The only other choice is to either kill or remove all Palestinians from Israel and the Occupied Territories. And if Israel does that, you can expect the deaths of a lot more innocent Jews and Americans in terrorist attacks. People do not willingly submit to oppression. Until the governments of Israel and the US understand this, the violence will continue to escalate.


17 May 03 - 07:20 PM (#954600)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

No, CarolC, it was not Israel that abandoned the Oslo process. It was the Palestinians.

Under the Oslo agreement, the Palestinians agreed to abandon violence in favor of negotiations. However, in the last round of high level negotiations, between Israel's Barak and the Palestinians' Arafat at Camp David with President Clinton, everything ended and the 2nd Intifada began, when Arafat walked away rather than negotiate. About 1000 Israelis and twice that many Palestinians are now dead because Arafat killed the peace process.


18 May 03 - 01:11 AM (#954687)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

No GUEST, you are wrong. People have been telling you lies. I've posted this documentation several times here in the Mudcat, but I'll post it again here for you.

This is what Shimon Peres had to say in 2001 about how the Oslo process was brought to a halt:

"We have a skeleton, we didn't complete the house. The Oslo agreement has had a rather short occasion to implement itself, and that was between 1993 and 1996. The Oslo agreement was stopped in 1996 when the government in Israel was changed and Mr. Netanyahu became the Prime Minister. I think that the foundations and the structure of Oslo are still the best ones available. And once we shall have an opportunity, we shall complete the building that may withstand the winds of the outside world, and the skepticism of the people."

--Shimon Peres, September 24, 2001

According to Yitzhak Rabin, Arafat and the PLO were willing to work with him in stopping terrorism. (This was during the time when the Palestinians still had hope because they thought the Oslo agreement would be implemented)...

"In the last two years, not one Israeli has been killed by PLO terrorism," Rabin said. The real threat, he said, does not come from Israel's old adversaries - he pointedly included Syrian President Hafez al-Assad in the faded threat category - but from "the ugly wave of" Iranian-supported Islamic fundamentalism.

--Yitzhak Rabin

And here is documentation about the myth of "Barak's Generous Offer" and who it was that ended that process:

The Myth of the Generous Offer

Distorting the Camp David negotiations
By Seth Ackerman

Here's what that article has to say about the start of the Intifada:

"The Intifada began on September 29, 2000, when Israeli troops opened fire on unarmed Palestinian rock-throwers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, killing four and wounding over 200 (State Department human rights report for Israel, 2/01)."

The article goes on to debunk the myth of the "generous offer"

More documentation debunking the generous offer myth:

Adviser: Clinton Exasperated With Barak During Peace Talks

Camp David: The Tragedy of Errors

By Hussein Agha, Robert Malley

Myth of Israel's 'generous offer' damages truth, peace

By MIRIAM WARD


18 May 03 - 11:12 AM (#954829)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

Anyway CarolC, your heroic suicide terrorists got another seven Jews yesterday in Jerusalem.


18 May 03 - 12:19 PM (#954881)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Cheap shot, GUEST, and I defy you to find a single post of mine where I have advocated the killing of innocents.


18 May 03 - 12:24 PM (#954884)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker

CarolC-So, you think that Arafat was right in rejecting Barak's offer? Politically it was idiotic, and morally the same. By refusing the offer, however stingy it might have been, Arafat made himself look like the bad guy, guaranteed continued Israeli presence in the 98% that was offered, and made it much harder for the Palestinian Authority to exercise the control necessary to prevent terrorism. The offer was not a generous end-point, but it granted much more autonomy than the present situation, and I can't see any reason to reject it except pettiness and an unwillingness to compromise. Half of what you wanted is a better position to negotiate for the rest of it than none at all.


18 May 03 - 12:34 PM (#954893)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Forum Lurker, I would suggest that you read the articles about Barak's offer more carefully. Arafat couldn't have accepted Barak's offer and also have an independant Palestinian state. It would have been impossible to have a viable Palestinian state on the terms that were offered.


18 May 03 - 12:43 PM (#954903)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

By refusing the offer, however stingy it might have been, Arafat made himself look like the bad guy,

Why? Why does this make Arafat look like the bad guy when it was Israel who reneged on the agreement it made with the Oslo accord? Don't you see what a spectacular double standard you and any other people who think this way have with regard to Israel and the Palestinians? In your mind, Israel can do no wrong. In your mind, Palestinians can do no right. This is a pathological mindset, and you will see only more and more suffering on both sides until you and any other people who think like this take a good look at it and correct it.


19 May 03 - 07:51 AM (#955329)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City

CarolC,

Everytime the Israelis agree to negotiate, the Palestinian suicide terrorists destroy any chance of the negotiations working. See photos of the latest Palestinian suicide terrorist attack by clicking here.


19 May 03 - 11:38 AM (#955489)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

GUEST,New York City, what you probably don't know is that every time the Palestinians go to negotiate, the Israeli government goes into the Occupied territories and kills a bunch of innocent Palestinians.

See... it all depends on your perspective and where you get your news. You are getting a perspective that is slanted entirely in Israel's favor. The truth is something quite different than what is being reported in the US, and even in Israel.

The real truth is that every time Palestinian and Israeli moderates try to start a peace process, extremists on both sides start killing people. And as has already been pointed out by a guest in this thread, more than twice the number of Palestinians have been killed than Israeli Jews. I can show pictures too, if you want.


19 May 03 - 12:01 PM (#955503)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Here's an interesting link from the Israeli Jewish human rights organization, B'Tselem, about Israeli border guards beating innocent Palestinians to death. This article is quite stunning to me, because it's the first time I've seen any mention of any of these border guards facing prosecution. Maybe there's some hope after all...

Click on Beaten to Death in the "On the Agenda" section.

Here's an excerpt:

Border Policemen suspected of beating 'Imran Abu Hamdiya, 17, to death arrested

"On 19 April 2003, four Border Police officers were arrested on suspicion of having beaten to death 'Imran Abu Hamdiya, 17, in Hebron in December 2002. Four other Border Police officers were arrested on suspicion of abusing Palestinians, among them minors, and of stealing from Palestinian shops in Hebron.

The details of the Abu Hamdiya case were as follows: Around 8:00 P.M. on 30 December 2002, a Border Police jeep stopped alongside Abu Hamdiya, who was standing with friends outside his home in Hebron. According to testimonies given to B'Tselem, the Border Policemen put Abu Hamdiya into the jeep and left. A few of Abu Hamdiya's friends went to Hebron's industrial area, which is known as a place where Border Policemen take residents and beat them up. About forty minutes after Abu Hamdiya was taken, his friends found his body lying on the road in the industrial zone."


And in the same site, here's an article about a pregnant woman being crushed to death by the IDF...

Click on Woman Crushed to Death in the "On the Agenda" section.

Here's an excerpt:

"On the night of March 2, IDF forces invaded the Al-Burej refugee camp in what the IDF Spokesperson referred to as an "IDF action against the terror infra-structure." During the operation, the army blew up the house of 'Adel 'Abd a-Salam, whose son had committed, according to the IDF Spokesperson, a suicide attack in the Gaza Strip, wounding four soldiers.

As a result of the explosion, the wall of the neighboring house, the home of Shukri and Nuha al-Mukadame and their ten children collapsed. No one warned the members of the family or told them to evacuate the house. The mother, Nuha Al-Mukadame, 33 and nine months pregnant, was crushed to death under the rubble. Her husband and her children were all injured."

These two stories are just a very small tip of a very large iceberg. Palestinians are human beings just like you and me. Do you understand this?


19 May 03 - 01:46 PM (#955570)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

This just in, CarolC. Your another of Arafat's suicide terrorists struck today at a shopping mall in Northern Israel. At least 3 dead and 47 injured.

Hamas and Arafat's own Al-Asqa Martyrs Brigade commit these acts of suicidal terror knowing full well that Israel will have no choice but to retaliate and make things worse for the Palestinian people. That is what Arafat and his followers want.

On 9/11 Osama knew that America would have no choice but to retaliate. That is what he wanted.

The Osamas and Arafats of this world want their own people dead.


19 May 03 - 01:56 PM (#955577)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

It's what Sharon wants, too, GUEST. He wants everyone to endorse his and the Likud party's agenda, which is to remove all Palestinians from Israel and the occupied territories. The only way for this to happen is for a lot of innocent Jews to get killed.

Never trust your safety to psychopaths who have no regard for human rights. Sharon is such a man. He doesn't care about you or anyone else. All he cares about is his agenda, his power, and his hatred of Palestinians.


19 May 03 - 02:07 PM (#955578)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD

'The Osamas and Arafats of this world want their own people dead'

I don't think this is the right way round, I just think that they are the sort of people who are intolerant of anyone who does not hold them as individuals who are supreme leaders & who want ultimate power. They are willing to sacrifice the lives of those around them for their cause, & see nothing wrong with using indocrinated people to do their dirty work for them.

This is just breeding the hatred that they want, & let's not be too innocent here, but there are many in the world who are simply happy to be led, & truly believe that their way is the only right way, & probably will always be intolerant.

Many of the young people that follow these causes have never known any other way than the hate they are told by the leaders & will never be able to understand the decent human right for everyone, no matter what creed or colour to live.


19 May 03 - 02:45 PM (#955600)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Wolfgang

it all depends on your perspective and where you get your news.... The real truth is... (Carol)

We can be glad we have you to tell us the real truth in barely more than 20 % of all posts in this thread.

Wolfgang


19 May 03 - 02:53 PM (#955604)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

What's your point, Wolfgang?


19 May 03 - 03:52 PM (#955641)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

There have been no less than five suicide bombings in Israel and
the occupied territories since Saturday night, killing 17 people and
injuring dozens of others. Indeed, the spate of violence overshadowed a historic meeting between Israeli Prime Minister Sharon and the new
Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas Saturday evening. They are the highest level talks between the two sides in more than two years.

So the "road map" peace plan has been put on hold, or perhaps destroyed, which is exactly what the Palestinian terrorists hoped to accomplish.


19 May 03 - 05:26 PM (#955688)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Once again I will state that I do not condone or endorse the killing of innocents, either Isreaeli or Palestinian.

Having said that, it isn't too difficult to understand what's going on if people can allow their hatred of Palestinians to stop clouding their ability to see.

Associated Press

"The larger group Hamas has said it carried out four attacks over the weekend that killed 13 people, including four bombers, and it made clear today that it would not halt the violence.

"As long as the occupation remains on our land and as long as the occupation soldiers are breathing our air we will continue our resistance," Hamas spokesman Abdel Aziz Rantisi said."

Hammas, an organization that is considered to be radical, has stated quite clearly what they want. They want an end to the occupation. It's pretty simple. You can attribute all kinds of evil motives to these people, but they have been consistant with their demands. End the occupation. I don't know about the Islamic Jihad organization. Maybe they have more extremist views.

So why are people like Hammas, who have clearly stated that they want an end to the occupation, doing things that could gum up the works in the latest "peace process"? If you see what is actually being offered with this "Road Map" scenario, it's not too difficult to understand why Palestinians find it difficult to swallow.

The guaranteed failure of the road map to peace in the Middle East

By Tanya Reinhart (professor at Tel Aviv University and the University of Utrecht)

Excerpt:

Israel responded also to the Road Map with the same old objections. It further emphasized that a negotiated halt to terror is not sufficient and what is required is a visible clash between the new security forces and the opposition organizations (namely, a civil war). Israel even demands that a Palestinian declaration of end of conflict and renunciation of the right of return must be given as a precondition at the beginning of any process, and not at the end. Again, none of this undermines the US position that Israel is the side that is seeking peace, the side "whose security is the key to the security of the world", as Condoleezza Rice put it. The US is ruled today by hawks whose vision is an unending war. Israel, whose leaders are always eager to go on another war, is an asset in this vision. There is therefore no basis for the belief that the US will allow anyone to force Israel to make any concessions.

On 13 March 2002, on the eve of Zinni's peace visit in the previous round, the Israeli army welcomed him with an attack on the Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza, in which 24 Palestinians were killed in one night. Now it has welcomed Powell with a wave of arrests and deportation of international peace activists. In the Pax Americana, there is no room for peace activists. Peace will be brought by the tanks.

Don't envy Abu Mazen By Uri Avnery (Israeli journalist, writer and peace activist)

And another by Uri Avnery:

A Road Map to Nowhere

Excerpt:

"Third question: Is there any kind of balance between the obligations on the two parties? The answer must be "no".

In the first phase, the Palestinians must stop the armed Intifada, establish close security cooperation with the Israelis and recognize Israel's right to exist in peace and security. They must also appoint an "empowered" Prime Minister (meaning, in effect, the neutralization of the elected president, Yasser Arafat) and start the drafting of a constitution that will meet with the approval of the Quartet.

What must Israel do at the same time? It must enable Palestinian officials (note: officials. This does not apply to the rest of the population) to move from place to place, improve the humanitarian situation, stop attacks on civilians and the demolition of homes and pay the Palestinians the money due to them. Also, it will dismantle "settlement outposts" erected since Sharon came to power, in violation of the government's guidelines. Who will decide to whom this applies? There is also no mention of freezing settlement activity in this phase.

Does anyone believe that Prime Minister Abu Mazen could put an end to Hamas and Jihad attacks without any political quid pro quo at all, and while the settlements keep expanding?"

Here's the actual text of the Roadmap in the US Department of State website


19 May 03 - 05:43 PM (#955706)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST,New York City

Hammas, an organization that is considered to be radical,has stated quite clearly what they want. They want an end to the occupation. It's pretty simple. You can attribute all kinds of evil motives to these people, but they have been consistant with their demands. End the occupation.

CarolC makes it sound so simple and the Israelis so despicable.

What she fails to tell us is that to Hamas, the "occupation" extends to every inch of historical Palestine, that is to say, all of Israel proper within the pre-1967 borders.

The Hamas leaders have made this clear time and time again. They have told Arafat that should he make peace with Israel, he will be executed. And that, CarolC, is probably why Arafat has never missed an opportunity to sabotage the peace process.

When CarolC lies by ommiting this information, she becomes nothing but an appologist for terrorist murderers. I'm ashamed that I once actually kissed her as a friend. Never again.


19 May 03 - 07:16 PM (#955783)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: GUEST

So why did Israel fund Hamas?


19 May 03 - 07:45 PM (#955800)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

When CarolC lies by ommiting this information, she becomes nothing but an appologist for terrorist murderers.

This is bullshit.

What she fails to tell us is that to Hamas, the "occupation" extends to every inch of historical Palestine, that is to say, all of Israel proper within the pre-1967 borders.

I have not seen or heard any quotes from Hammas that support what you are saying. If you can show me some from credible sources, I'll be happy to stand corrected.

I'm ashamed that I once actually kissed her as a friend. Never again.

You're quite the drama queen. You have a very deep need to see the worst in people, don't you? If I knew who you are, I might be able to respond appropriately, but since I don't, there is no way to even know if you're telling the truth, or just yanking my chain.

The Hamas leaders have made this clear time and time again. They have told Arafat that should he make peace with Israel, he will be executed.

Again, if you show me some actual quotes, I'll be happy to stand corrected.

And that, CarolC, is probably why Arafat has never missed an opportunity to sabotage the peace process.

It wasn't Arafat who sabotaged Oslo. That was Netanyahu, and the Jewish extremist who killed Rabin. And as we have seen, there were no Israeli deaths from PLO terrorism for at least two years while the Palestinians still had hope that Israel would honor it's agreements. You can't blame the failure of Oslo on Arafat, or the Palestinians, or on me, no matter how much your need to hate all of us makes you want to do it.

You can try to hold me responsible for all of the evils of the world if you want. But that's not going to change a thing. Even if I never type or speak another word on the subject, the number of innocents, both Palestinian and Jew, will continue to increase until Israel ends the occupation, or until all Palestinians are gone from Israel and the occupied territories. And if the latter happens, expect a lot of innocent Jews all over the world to be targeted with terrorist attacks, along with a lot of innocent Americans.

This has nothing to do with me or anything I might or might not want. It's just the reality that you and everyone else who cares about Israel has to deal with. As I said before, the numbers back me up on this.


19 May 03 - 11:09 PM (#955876)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

An excerpt from A Gaza Diary

By Chris Hedges

Arafat loyalists in the camp, such as Faqawi, concede that Hamas is ascendant. If Oslo had led, as many had hoped, to a two-state solution, and thereby given Palestinians some glimmer of a better life, it is a fair bet that Hamas would be a marginal force in Gaza. But Israel's occupation and Arafat's mismanagement have made it only a matter of time before the militants come to power. They already rule the street. If Sharon unleashes Israel's might, as he did in Lebanon, the Palestinian Authority will be his first victim.

"What has happened since the Palestinian Authority came to power?" the sheikh asks. "Everyone is poorer. The Israeli occupation has not ended. Hardship always brings people back to God. It is like sickness. To quote the Prophet, peace be upon him, a believer should never be afraid of being poor but of being rich. When you become rich you think only of things. This kills your soul. Islam has given Palestinians cohesion. We feel as one body, in our dreams and our agony. And Islam distinguishes us in that it prepares people to die for the sake of Allah. They are always ready to die for Allah. They are ready to spread the message of Islam, ready to rescue someone weaker than they, even animals."

Hamas is primarily known outside Israel for its suicide-bomb attacks against Israeli civilians. The sheikh tells me that Hamas orders suicide bombers, under its military wing, the Iz al-Din al-Qassam, to attack Israeli civilian targets because Israeli troops and armed settlers routinely attack Palestinian civilians.

"As long as they target our civilians we will target their civilians," he says. "When they stop we will stop."

From 1987 to 1993, during the first intifada, Hamas targeted only Israeli soldiers and settlements. It began to attack individual Israeli civilians after a Jewish settler, Baruch Goldstein, gunned down twenty-nine Muslim worshipers in the lbrahimi Mosque in Hebron. But these attacks have had the added benefit of discrediting and weakening Arafat's authority, of exposing his helplessness in the face of settlement expansion, closures, and the shooting of unarmed Palestinians. Still, even the sheikh has used his time during Friday prayers to implore the young boys not to go out on the dunes.


20 May 03 - 11:51 AM (#956223)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: AggieD

The problems that so many Palestinians have with Israel is that if Hammas did not keep on bombing innocent Israeli citizens, then the rest of the Palestinian people would not have such a hard time of it.

Let's be honest all journalists & political writers have their own agenda,& are quite happy to bend the truth to sell their articles.


'From 1987 to 1993, during the first intifada, Hamas targeted only Israeli soldiers and settlements.'

Are you therefore CarolC condoning this fact? These were still human beings being killed.

This link might just interest you:
http://www.jcpa.org/art/brief1-1.htm

"Israel entered the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the 1967 Six-Day War. Israeli legal experts traditionally resisted efforts to define the West Bank and Gaza Strip as "occupied" or falling under the main international treaties dealing with military occupation. Former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Meir Shamgar wrote in the 1970s that there is no de jure applicability of the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention regarding occupied territories to the case of the West Bank and Gaza Strip since the Convention "is based on the assumption that there had been a sovereign who was ousted and that he had been a legitimate sovereign." In fact, prior to 1967, Jordan had occupied the West Bank and Egypt had occupied the Gaza Strip; their presence in those territories was the result of their illegal invasion in 1948. Jordan's 1950 annexation of the West Bank was recognized only by Great Britain and Pakistan and rejected by the vast majority of the international community, including the Arab states."

So who was occupying whom?

And would you now evict all those people who have made their homes in these areas? Where are they supposed to go. You will now make thousands of people homeless. So what do you do about that situation?


20 May 03 - 12:39 PM (#956254)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

The problems that so many Palestinians have with Israel is that if Hammas did not keep on bombing innocent Israeli citizens, then the rest of the Palestinian people would not have such a hard time of it.

I disagree with this. I think a case can be made that if Hamas wasn't in the area attempting to defend Palestinians, and provide them with much needed basic human services, all of the Palestinians would have already died or have been removed from the occupied territories. I can't prove the situation either way, but then again, neither can you.

Let's be honest all journalists & political writers have their own agenda,& are quite happy to bend the truth to sell their articles.

Some more than others, I think. But that's why I try to get my information from Jewish human rights organizations whenever possible.

'From 1987 to 1993, during the first intifada, Hamas targeted only Israeli soldiers and settlements.'

Are you therefore CarolC condoning this fact? These were still human beings being killed.


This presents quite a problem, doesn't it? These were human beings who were harrassing and killing innocent human beings and driving them from their homes. If I was in a position to have to defend one or the other of these groups, I'd have a hard time justifying defending the aggressor in this situation.

And how about the human beings that the IDF forces were (and are) harassing and killing? Do you condone this killing? They are still human beings. And how about the people who are killed in the name of fighting terrorism? They are human beings too. Do you condone killing them?

"Israel entered the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the 1967 Six-Day War. Israeli legal experts traditionally resisted efforts to define the West Bank and Gaza Strip as "occupied" or falling under the main international treaties dealing with military occupation. Former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Meir Shamgar wrote in the 1970s that there is no de jure applicability of the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention regarding occupied territories to the case of the West Bank and Gaza Strip since the Convention "is based on the assumption that there had been a sovereign who was ousted and that he had been a legitimate sovereign." In fact, prior to 1967, Jordan had occupied the West Bank and Egypt had occupied the Gaza Strip; their presence in those territories was the result of their illegal invasion in 1948. Jordan's 1950 annexation of the West Bank was recognized only by Great Britain and Pakistan and rejected by the vast majority of the international community, including the Arab states."

So who was occupying whom?


Your legal experts don't have a leg to stand on. The land that was given to the Jewish State of Israel was given to them by the same body that gave Palestine to the Palestinians. If the Palestinians have no claim to their land, then neither do the Israelis.

And this kind of legalese jargon is a pretty pathetic attempt to justify something that no self-respecting Jew would tolerate if it was foisted upon them by anyone. The Jews who were expelled from their homes in Pogroms in places like Russia. They weren't legitimate sovereigns over their land. Does that make the expulsion ok? The countries whose governments oppressed Jews Were/are sovereigns. Does that make it ok for them to oppress Jews?

Even the Palestinians who live in Israel proper are treated as second class citizens. I can provide plenty of non-journalistic documentation to suppor this statement. Israel has no constitution, and it has two sets of laws. One set of laws applies only to Jews. The other set of laws applies to everyone else.

The Palestinians in the occupied territories have no rights at all. They are non-people to the Israeli government.

And would you now evict all those people who have made their homes in these areas? Where are they supposed to go. You will now make thousands of people homeless. So what do you do about that situation?

Yes. The settlers need to go. The settlements are in violation of the Geneva Convention, and they are the cause of a lot of violence and suffering for a lot of people on both sides. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be happy to provide money to the settlers to relocate elsewhere, just as there were plenty of people who provided the money for them to settle in the occupied territories in the first place.

That is, of course, unless people decided to have all of Israel and the Palestinian occupied territories be joined together as one country under a secular government with one constitution for everybody and only one set of laws for everybody. I don't see this being very likely.

So since you like to frame arguments in terms of equivalences, ask yourself this... if a government of a country, right now, was doing to Jews what the government of Israel has been and continues to do to the Palestinians, would you tolerate it? Would you be silent while it happened? Would you support them and help them do it with your words, your money, your political support?

If I was silent while governments did these kinds of things to Jews, my silence would make me complicit. So what about you? Are you willing to make yourself complicit while these things are being done to human beings? Being done in your name?


20 May 03 - 12:49 PM (#956264)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker

CarolC-You are misunderstanding what AggieD is saying about the occupation. The land may belong to the Palestinians, but before it was occupied by Israel IT WAS ILLEGALLY OCCUPIED BY ARAB STATES. To address other points:

Hamas is not defending the Palestinians when they bomb Israelis. You have admitted innumerable times that the extremists on both sides are equally responsible for the cycle of violence, yet you refuse to condemn the currently most violent extremists on the Palestinian side of the conflict.

When you get your information from Jewish human rights groups, that doesn't make it any less biased than any other human rights group. Their bias simply comes from a feeling of guilt rather than accusation.

As for your final question, if my fellow Jews were murdering innocents by the score because they thought it was a valid political tool, I would not support them. Regardless of who is "in the right," there is no justification for such terrorist tactics, which damage, rather than aid the cause they espouse.


20 May 03 - 01:15 PM (#956282)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

CarolC-You are misunderstanding what AggieD is saying about the occupation. The land may belong to the Palestinians, but before it was occupied by Israel IT WAS ILLEGALLY OCCUPIED BY ARAB STATES. To address other points:

Whatever treaties give Israel whatever rights it has also gives the Palestinians in Palestine the same rights. You can't have it both ways.

Hamas is not defending the Palestinians when they bomb Israelis. You have admitted innumerable times that the extremists on both sides are equally responsible for the cycle of violence, yet you refuse to condemn the currently most violent extremists on the Palestinian side of the conflict.

AggieD was asking about the killing of Israeli soldiers. I do condemn, and have consistantly condemned the killing of innocents by anyone, extremist or otherwise on both sides of the conflict. The killing of soldiers is a more complicated question.

When you get your information from Jewish human rights groups, that doesn't make it any less biased than any other human rights group. Their bias simply comes from a feeling of guilt rather than accusation.

That's ok with me, because any bias in favor of human rights is, by definition, fair to all humans.

As for your final question, if my fellow Jews were murdering innocents by the score because they thought it was a valid political tool, I would not support them. Regardless of who is "in the right," there is no justification for such terrorist tactics, which damage, rather than aid the cause they espouse.

Your fellow Jews are killing innocents by the score because they think it's a valid political tool. And it sounds to me like you support them in doing this. You seem to think the Palestinians should just lay down and die, so Israel can have all the land it wants. Israel is using state supported terrorism, and it looks to me like you are ok with that. State supported terrorism is just as damaging as any other kind of terrorism.


20 May 03 - 03:08 PM (#956381)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: artbrooks

CarolC said: Your fellow Jews are killing innocents by the score because they think it's a valid political tool. Bullshit. Nobody thinks this, including the Israeli government. And it sounds to me like you support them in doing this. I would have thought that even the most deluded mind couldn't come up with this. Guess I was wrong. You seem to think the Palestinians should just lay down and die, so Israel can have all the land it wants. Nonsense Israel is using state supported terrorism, and it looks to me like you are ok with that. Again, no one has even begun to imply this, except in one person's imagination. State supported terrorism is just as damaging as any other kind of terrorism. No argument. Have a nice vacation.


20 May 03 - 04:41 PM (#956437)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker

CarolC-No, not all treaties guarantee both parties the same rights. In fact, very few treaties do so. Given that the IDF maintains a universal draft, claiming that Israeli soldiers are necessarily any less innocent than any other Israeli citizen is ridiculous. A bias in favor of the human rights of Palestinians, neglecting the human rights of Israelis, is just as biased as the inverse, and by no means "fair to all humans," unless you maintain that Israelis are inhuman. Finally, I have never stated that I support the IDF's use of certain tactics, or that I support what you claim to be Sharon's goal of evicting the Palestinians. What I have stated is that the killing of civilians is not a valid political tool, and that any group which openly embraces it as such is terroristic. Regardless of what you think of their intent, the IDF does not claim that it would be justified in the mass slaughter of innocent Palestinians to further the political goals of Israel. Hamas, on the other hand, is based on the proposition that the murder of Israeli civilians is not only justified, but a moral obligation, as a political tool.


20 May 03 - 04:42 PM (#956438)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Bullshit yourself, Artbrooks.

If I make a statement like the one you're having problems with, I get criticized for making the statement. If I post documentation, I get criticized for posting the documentation. If I post indesputable proof, I get criticized for posting indesputable proof. Other than agreeing with your position or remaining silent, there is nothing I can do without being attacked.

Nobody thinks this, including the Israeli government

You're very, very, very wrong about this. But you're too deluded yourself to see it. A lot of people not only think it, they know it, including former IDF soldiers and officers, and Israeli refuseniks who have gone to jail in order to not be forced to commit these crimes agains humanity.

The level of vitriol being flung at me is reaching a fever pitch. You guys must be feeling incredibly guilty right about now. Get your heads out of the sand, for pete's sake, and do something to stop this tragedy!!! Do it for your own sake!


20 May 03 - 04:53 PM (#956447)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

A bias in favor of the human rights of Palestinians, neglecting the human rights of Israelis, is just as biased as the inverse, and by no means "fair to all humans," unless you maintain that Israelis are inhuman.

What you are describing is organizations that promote the rights of certain groups, such as the Anti-defamation league, and the NAACP. Human rights organizations state, as their goal, the promotion of the rights of all humans, regardless of their race, religion, ethnic group, or nationality. So no human rights organization would promote a bias that neglected the rights of anyone.

What I have stated is that the killing of civilians is not a valid political tool, and that any group which openly embraces it as such is terroristic. Regardless of what you think of their intent, the IDF does not claim that it would be justified in the mass slaughter of innocent Palestinians to further the political goals of Israel. Hamas, on the other hand, is based on the proposition that the murder of Israeli civilians is not only justified, but a moral obligation, as a political tool.

The IDF doesn't claim that, nor do they admit it when they engage in such practices. But that doesn't change the fact that they do engage in such practices. The main difference between Hamas and the Israeli government is the fact that Hamas freely admits what it does, while the Israeli government does whatever it wants and then denies it. Or claims that it has a right to do it, or that it is justified.

I saw an IDF officer, on television, justifying his orders to his unit to use Palestinian civilians as human shields (which they did do). He never denied that he had done it. In fact, he didn't even see what he had done as being wrong. Do you know what he used as his "justification"? He said it was for a "just cause".


20 May 03 - 06:31 PM (#956510)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: Forum Lurker

CarolC-You are thinking about an ideal human rights organization, composed solely of infallible people whose sole motivation is to improve human rights. No real group like this exists, and so we are left with organizations who may be mistaken or biased against a certain group, may be misled, or whose members may include people who are not solely interested in human rights. Nothing about the stated motives of these organizations conveys any objectivity or infallibity.


20 May 03 - 07:06 PM (#956539)
Subject: RE: BS: What is Anti-Semitism?
From: CarolC

Nobody's infallible, Forum Lurker. But these are the groups who have the least biased agenda with regard to how human beings should be treated, and their track records are very good overall. Since their stated agenda, and their track record, shows that they do, in fact, work very hard to promote basic human rights for all people, they are the most qualified to be monitoring these kinds of situations and reporting on them. They're the best any of us has got. The reason that I prefer to get my information from the Jewish run organizations is because they would have the least amount of incentive to be biased against Jews, but I also trust the Society of Friends (Quakers), and a few others who have excellent track records with regard to fairness. And I don't buy that "only doing it because they feel guilty" business for one minute. They do it because they are people of great courage and humanity. You sell all Jews short when you try to attribute such cynical motives to these people.

Ok. I'm going off-line for about a week and a half. Argue amongst yourselves.