|
02 May 03 - 07:00 PM (#945183) Subject: Folklore: ?or BS? Larry answers Spaws Querry From: InOBU LARRY.....Got a question.....Pacifist means what exactly? I view things through a lens of "is it worth killing for." The fact that I can think of a few things that would lead me to do so keeps me from any serious pacifistic view. I can't commit past a certain point. Do the Quakers have "sects" shall we say that take a differing view or is the pacifist belief in non-violence an integral part of the life? Is it violence or violence against my fellow man? I wonder this because Norman Morrison was I think widely revered for his actions and yet I can think of very few things less violent. It's bothered me for a long time actually and I thought, what the hell, I'll ask someone who knows. My dear Friend: You ask a very complex question, so I hope I can answer it in one or two goes. Yes, there is a divercity of opinion about the meaning and extent of pasifism among Friends. Don't forget, Richard Nixon, (my fingers cramp to type this...) was a Friend. And, yes, there are sects after a manner, and once a schism, though the division was on thological ideas other than pasisfism. So, I will begin with Quake's and the peace testimony. Our peace testimony comes out of the fact of seeing God in everyone. Killing becomes impossible when you so include that other in your understanding of God's process that you are open and present to that person as a part of God's working. Now, Quakerism is about process, not outcome. So, many Friends remain open (I hope) to finding their way to the above, but are not yet there and have been fighting Friends. Quakers have fought in most wars from the Revolution on - sometimes in the past, at the cost of being read out of their meetings, sometimes not. However, being read out of meeting is not a shunning, one can still go to meeting, and just not be on the rolls as a member. As to the sects, they fall into three main catigories with many many sub catigories. Hicksites (like me) run the gammut from Christ may or may not be devine and that the bible is good theolgy for the most part, but not the hand of God, but is a rather flawed history book and a human artifact.. , to those who, as I do, feel that worshiping Christ as actualy God on earth more than any other of us, is to be pagan, and place an abstraction for God in the way of God, and the bible is a good way of discovering Jesus as a Hillelian rabbi and Hillel, who was a real light. Sect 2 Wilburites Jesus is God, is the light, the Bible is important but not more important than that still small voice all Quakers listen to in worship. Gurnyites: Jesus is God and the Bible is infalable and when your still small voice contradicts the bible, you are wrong. That is a simplified version. But, I think the accepting of the peace testimony is pretty much eqaully accected and rejected by members of all the above. Cheers Yours in the light Larry |
|
03 May 03 - 12:22 PM (#945420) Subject: RE: Folklore: ?or BS? Larry answers Spaws Querry From: alanabit Thanks. There is something I have learned today. I always remember reading the epilogue to John Arden's play "Sergeant Musgrave's Dance", in which he stated that true pacifism was a very hard road to follow - and he was not sure that he could advocate a choice which he was unsure he could stick to himself. I'll go along with that. There are people who genuinely achieve pacifism, but I am afraid I am not going to make it. Visiting a concentration camp made me determined that I would be prepared to kill before I ever passed into such a helpless situation. Unfortunately, I see many moral choices - in politics in particular - as being the lesser of two evils. I have nothing but admiration for those who can go beyond that, but I haven't made it yet. |
|
03 May 03 - 02:12 PM (#945465) Subject: RE: Folklore: ?or BS? Larry answers Spaws Querry From: catspaw49 Larry, I was surprised and delighted to find you had chosen a separate thread to answer rather than bury this in thread drift. I may be a bit dense (Dense? Yes, I'd love to, Fox Trot or Tango?) but I still need a bit more depth or perhaps just clarity. Am I right in saying that seeing God in each of us is the basis for non-violence against other human beings? Or did I misunderstand? I think I can see the differences between the sects although your own is still a bit muddled....probably because it covers a seemingly broad cross-section. Would that be the case for it seeming a bit unclear? I can see your mention of "sub groups" being applicable in your sect probably moreso than the two others. Does saying "peace through peaceful means" approximate the idea here or not? It would seem from what you have said and what I knew from before that it's the general idea although, as you mention, Richard Nixon was a Quaker, something always hard for me to comprehend. (BTW, because of the high population of Quakers that originally settled the area where I grew up, one of the local high schools are called the New Philadelphia Quakers----Somehow the idea of a football team known as the "Fighting Quakers" seemed completely incongruous, but....like a company called "Amish Techno-Software Development") I would assume that suicide is looked upon as a no-no in most sects and groups as it perpetuates violence against oneself, also a human being where God is present. Norman Morrison chose as violent a suicide to promote peace as I can imagine. Was this a Benthamesque act or stupid and foolhardy or brave and courageous.......or all of the above? He was as I stated before, widely revered by some while thought a lunatic by others. It wasn't until many years later that we learned it DID have a profound effect on Robert McNamara. What I am asking is, how does it fit in with the beliefs? Or was he, as may be the case, a part of a sect and sub-group who saw things differently? I'd tend not to believe that the case since as I recall, he pretty much had the admiration of all Quakers. Thanks for your friendship Larry and your time spent in answering the resident buffoon. Spaw |
|
03 May 03 - 03:26 PM (#945495) Subject: RE: Folklore: ?or BS? Larry answers Spaws Querry From: Peter T. Gandhi's position was different, and interesting. He believed that everyone was searching for the truth, and that violence was an attempt to take a shortcut -- that people who use violence believe themselves to be in possession of the truth, and that other people are "in the way" and need to be cut down as obstacles or as being delusional in their own beliefs. One's opponents are not people, they are objects in the way (like people who stand in your way when you are hurrying towards a bus, they become physical obstacles). The non-violent person tries to shock the opponent into recognizing the humanity of the other. He believed that non-violence was a better way of working towards the truth, and that the non-violent person used himself or herself physically as a guarantee that he or she was sincerely prepared to sacrifice himself or herself for the truth. This sincerity was a way of transforming the opponent, kind of a jiujitsu of the soul. It raises hard questions about how to respond to the sadist and the madman, but that seems to have been his way. yours, Peter T. |
|
03 May 03 - 06:29 PM (#945558) Subject: RE: Folklore: ?or BS? Larry answers Spaws Querry From: InOBU A Spaw, Morrison. Right, I overlooked that. In fact, in the past month or two, about three or four messages addressed him in meeting (messages as we refer to ministry - no ministers, so from our varrious Friends). A few folks spoke of not understanding how this fits into our view of the non-violence. But, those who know his family often speak of the horrible violence he did to his daughter and wife by this act. Frankly, I find violence against one's self in this case even, to be an act of violence against those who love you. The Quaker view of making the peaceable kingdom through non violence, is that if one acts on that of God in the other, they will respond in kind. My song about (or the origional story of...) Thomas Lurting speaks to this... in a violent century he overcame pirates and turned them to Friends by interacting with the God in them. Another instance is the Peace feather story, when the Abinaki's did not kill us, as they intended after we, silently made peace. Cheers Larry |
|
04 May 03 - 07:53 AM (#945760) Subject: RE: Folklore: ?or BS? Larry answers Spaws Querry From: InOBU Hi Alanabit... Your point about the concentration camps is a good one, but we should remember that no concentration camps were liberated as a goal of the war, and no efforts were made to slow the process from the abondonment of the Jewish refugees who like those on the Sturma were allowed to drown, 800 or so, or the St. Luis where they were all sent back most to die, to the failure to bomb the rail lines to the camps. In the end, if we had put Rockafeller in jail with the other industrialists who supported hitler to the end, well that would have done more to stop the concentration camps than the very extrondinary stand in the Warsaw Ghetto, which was destined to fail without the first step of cutting off hitlers bankers. Peace and justice Larry |
|
04 May 03 - 08:34 AM (#945764) Subject: RE: Folklore: ?or BS? Larry answers Spaws Querry From: alanabit Hi Larry, You are quite right that the liberation of the concentration camps was not the aim of the war. About thirty minutes walk from here is a former embarkation point to the camps - and there are several bridges and junctions which could have been bombed to slow down the rate of liquidation. In the woods where I sometimes go walking with my children, there is a memorial to seventy odd "Gastarbeiter" (slaves) who were killed by the locals in a pogrom when they were suspected (rightly or wrongly) of having slaughtered and eaten a pig. The punishment of those who actually profited from slave labour was always sporadic and inconsistent. Dr.Werner von Braun certainly knew that slave labour was used to build rocket launching sites at Peenemünde - and you doubtless are well aware of the punishment which the US government inflicted on him! In fact the SPD - then a left wing party in Germany - informed British intelligence about the death camps and asked them to bomb the lines. I do not know why this did not happen. I am willing to be persuaded that they simply refused. They were callous enough to participate in the Dresden massacre. On the other hand, the scale of killing beggared belief - and I am equally open to the line that the Allies just did not believe that a civilised nation was capable of such bestial crimes. Nowadays, after Cambodia, Palestine, Ruanda and Bosnia, we have seen ample evidence on our TV screens that human beings really do still do these things to each other. Believe me Larry, if I ever see a machete bearing mob marching towards my house, I will trust in the power of the gun before I put much faith in the power of prayer. I have a very high threshold of violence - and in most cases would indeed prefer to run away even than to use it in self defence. Your choice is probably the bravest of all. I think that my choice is a step in the right direction. I have every respect and admiration for yours. Alan. |
|
04 May 03 - 08:01 PM (#945990) Subject: RE: Folklore: ?or BS? Larry answers Spaws Querry From: katlaughing I was a bit younger than Spaw when Morrison and the others carried out their deaths, so I had to refresh my memory through a google search. In doing so, I came across this site whihc has, imo, some interesting thoughts and quotes. Spaw and Larry, thanks so much for asking the questions and for answering. Finding just this year that a bunch fo my ancestors were Friends, I find this incredibly educational and interesting. It helps me to understand my ancestors, esp. the one who went into the "wilds of Indiana" along and without weapons, saying his honest face would stand him in good stead with the "Indians." Larry, am I right in assuming that Friends' being comfortable with their own silence may have had something to do with their success with Native American tribes as well as their beliefs of God in everyone and thing? Thanks, again, kat |
|
05 May 03 - 11:19 AM (#946233) Subject: RE: Folklore: ?or BS? Larry answers Spaws Querry From: polaitaly Larry , I don't know anything about Norman Morrison, and I'm not good at Internet search. Can you tell me who he was ? |
|
05 May 03 - 12:21 PM (#946266) Subject: RE: Folklore: ?or BS? Larry answers Spaws Querry From: catspaw49 You needed to click on the link kat provided above. The site she has linked to has some excelleny information and approaches the subject from another angle as well. Spaw |
|
05 May 03 - 12:44 PM (#946281) Subject: RE: Folklore: ?or BS? Larry answers Spaws Querry From: Big Mick polaitaly, he was a Quaker who burned himself to death (self immolation) in 1965 in front of The Pentagon. He had his infant daughter with him, but she was "saved". Morrison did this as an act of protest against the war in Vietnam. The effect this had on Robert McNamara is said to have been profound. There has been debate and discussion on this act ever since. There were a number of self immolation by Buddhists Monks during this timeframe as well. All the best, Mick |
|
08 May 03 - 08:49 AM (#948576) Subject: RE: Folklore: ?or BS? Larry answers Spaws Querry From: InOBU Dear Polaitaly: I was a way for the past few days, so I missed your question, and thanks to Mick and Spaw for replying to you. He is mentioned, oh several times whenever things get crazy in America during Friends meetings, or meetings of Friends, and always with a combination of greatly conflicted feelings, even among those who feel his leading was so very wrong, or so very right. For people who were very young during those days, or today, I emagine there are a lot of mudcatters born after those days, the depth of feeling and the revulstion at things like free fire zones, make for some understanding if not condoning for those of us, who feel that we wish someone was there with the strenth of conviction to stop him from doing this dreadful thing. I don't condone it for the monks, but at least they did not do this in front of their children. Cheers Larry |