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06 May 03 - 06:21 AM (#946819) Subject: Quiz - Henry VIII From: IanC Henry VIII Quiz Reading some of the past posts about Henry VIII, it looks as though quite a few of you got your history from Mark Twain. 'My, you ought to seen old Henry the Eight when he was in bloom. He was a blossom. He used to marry a new wife every day, and chop off her head next morning. And he would do it just as indifferent as if he was ordering up eggs. 'Fetch up Nell Gwynn,' he says. They fetch her up. Next morning, 'Chop off her head!' And they chop it off. 'Fetch up Jane Shore,' he says; and up she comes. Next morning, 'Chop off her head' - and they chop it off. 'Ring up Fair Rosamun.' Fair Rosamun answers the bell. Next morning, 'Chop off her head.' And he made every one of them tell him a tale every night; and he kept that up till he had hogged a thousand and one tales that way, and then he put them all in a book, and called it Domesday Book - which was a good name and stated the case. You don't know kings, Jim, but I know them; and this old rip of ourn is one of the cleanest I've struck in history. Well, Henry he takes a notion he wants to get up some trouble with this country. How does he go at it - give notice? - give the country a show? No. All of a sudden he heaves all the tea in Boston Harbor overboard, and whacks out a declaration of independence, and dares them to come on. That was his style - he never give anybody a chance. He had suspicions of his father, the Duke of Wellington. Well, what did he do? - ask him to show up? No - drownded him in a butt of mamsey, like a cat. Spose people left money laying around where he was - what did he do? He collared it. Spose he contracted to do a thing; and you paid him, and didn't set down there and see that he done it - what did he do? He always done the other thing. Spose he opened his mouth - what then? If he didn't shut it up powerful quick, he'd lose a lie, every time. That's the kind of a bug Henry was.... All I say is, kings is kings, and you got to make allowances. Take them all around, they're a mighty ornery lot. It's the way they're raised.' Here's a 20-question (actually 40) quiz to see what you know about HENRY VIII. Answers on the forum as usual. Comments, wrong answers, humour and song lyrics welcome. 1. In what direction was Henry VIII's early education aimed? Why was this? 2. How old was Henry when he married? How old when he became king? 3. Why was Henry marrying Catherine of Aragon regarded as a sin by the Catholic Church? How was this problem overcome? 4. How tall was Henry? What was his waist measurement at the age of 21? 5. For how long was Henry married to Catherine of Aragon? In what domestic task did she take particular pride? 6. Who did Henry leave as Governor of the Realm and Captain-General of the Armed Forces when he went to war? What was Henry sent as a memento of a battle which occurred in England during this time? 7. What did The Pope promise Henry in 1513? Why didn't Henry get it? 8. What unique honour did The Pope award Henry? Why? 9. What was the greatest threat to Henry's life in the early years of his reign? How did this lessen later? 10. Whose household was bigger, Henry's or Cardinal Wolsey's? Who kept Christmas with the most grandeur in 1525? 11. What title was given to Henry's eldest son? What was his name? 12. What languages did Henry speak? How musically accomplished was he? 13. What was Henry's main motivation for wishing to be divorced from Catherine of Aragon? Why didn't The Pope grant a divorce? 14. For how long was Henry married to Ann Boleyn? Why was she condemned to death? 15. For how long was Henry married to Jane Seymour? What was the cause of her death? 16. How many heretics did Henry execute? How does this compare with other Tudor monarchs? 17. What is unusual about the background of both Henry's leading ministers Wolsey and Cromwell? What else did they have in common? 18. How did Henry feel Thomas Cromwell had tricked him into a marriage? Did this lead to Cromwell's death? 19. What did Henry die of? Was he suffering from syphilis? 20. What did the authors of the most memorable English history have to say about Henry? Was it accurate? :-) Ian |
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06 May 03 - 06:32 AM (#946825) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: Allan C. Uh...gee, Ian...was that before or after 1066? (It's the only date in all of British history that I know and almost the entirety of my knowledge of the subject - but I'm hoping to improve soon.) |
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06 May 03 - 06:40 AM (#946831) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: DMcG You're doing well, Allan. There are only two memorable dates in English history. The source of that info may be the 'most memorable English history' that Ian is referring to. History was never a strong subject of mine (or, if you prefer, history was the equal of many of my subjects ;-( ). I reckon I know maybe half of the answers. That means I probably really know about two or three of them. To make a start, then. No 3. Catherine was married (or just betrothed?) to Henry's elder brother, and to marry your brother's wife (after he dies, naturally!) is forbidden in the Old testament - (a guess here) Leviticus. He was given a papal dispensation to allow the marriage to take place. |
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06 May 03 - 06:53 AM (#946835) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: IanC Good work, DMcG. Arthur had married Catherine of Aragon. 3. Leviticus XVIII, 16 clearly states 'Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness'. And, later, in chapter XX, 'If a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless'. This was considered by the church at the time to constitute incest. The problem was overcome by a papal dispensation, based on Catherine swearing that she and Henry's brother Arthur had never consummated their previous marriage. At the age of 14 Henry had written to The Pope, concerned at the ease with which the dispensation had been granted. This may have been partially due to political considerations on the part of his father, but also may have indicated some unease on Henry's part at the time. :-) |
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06 May 03 - 07:09 AM (#946845) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: DMcG Ok, I'll try another one. No 17. Both Wolsey and Cromwell were commoners, whereas the majority of the court were nobles. They were also both sons of merchants. |
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06 May 03 - 07:28 AM (#946852) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 14=3years, she was beheaded for treason. 15=1 year, she died of septicemia. |
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06 May 03 - 07:36 AM (#946857) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: Inükshük 5b Catherine could boil perfect eggs. |
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06 May 03 - 07:38 AM (#946859) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: DMcG Not many players, this time, IanC. I'll risk one more: No 8. Henry was awarded the title of "Defender of the Faith" by the Pope for a pamphlet he wrote defending the Church teachings on the Eucharist - perhaps even Transubstantiation. (I can't recall for certain and don't want to use web searches just yet) |
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06 May 03 - 08:43 AM (#946901) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: GUEST,Sooz(at work) 1. Religious matters - as the second son he was not expected to become king. 13. She only gave birth to daughters. (Mostly dead ones) 14. 1000 days - adultery or giving birth to a daughter whichever you prefer.(Both of which amounted to treason in the sixteenth century!) 19. No-one will ever know - only speculate. Incidentally he met his sixth and last wife (Catherine Parr) here in Gainsborough. Enough for now - am supposed to be at work after all. |
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06 May 03 - 08:51 AM (#946905) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: greg stephens Re12.He spoke English, French, Latin and Italian for a start. He was musical all right, playing virginals, organ, lute, recorder and flute, and could sight-read song parts. Wrote "pastime and good company" by repute, also various anthems. Also Greensleeves (according to Flanders and Swan, but I think Malcolm Douglas would disagree!!) |
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06 May 03 - 08:55 AM (#946908) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: MMario 11a: Duke of Richmond 11b: Henry Fitzroy |
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06 May 03 - 08:55 AM (#946911) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: MMario 12b - at least four different instrument |
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06 May 03 - 08:57 AM (#946913) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: IanC Doing well so far, despite our brief foray into BS! Here we go ... 14, 15 and 17. 14. Henry was married to Ann Boleyn for 3 years. She was executed for treason because of her alleged infidelity. Queens having sex with someone other than the King could result in the possibility of an "heir" being born who was not fathered by the King. It was, thus, inevitably treason. The converse is not, of course, true so that marital infidelity on the part of Kings was simply commonplace. Ann was palpably not guilty of any of the charges levelled against her, but had found herself politically opposed to the ruling faction and unable to provide a male heir. 15. Henry married Jane Seymour in rather indecent haste very soon after Ann Boleyn had been executed. The marriage lasted for only 1 year 5 months but resulted in the birth of a male heir, later to become Edward VI. Jane died 12 days after the birth, in October 1537 probably of puerperal fever, which was a common cause of death following childbirth. Henry was buried next to her upon his death. The "Death of Queen Jane" here and here in DT is a largely ficionalised account, probably written not long after her death. 17. For the most influential men in England apart from Henry himself (and often more so than Henry), both men came from exceedingly humble backgrounds. Thomas Wolsey was the son of a Suffolk butcher (later a wool merchant). He became in turn Bishop of London, Archbishop of York, Cardinal and Lord Chancellor, and papal legate. He was even at one time considered seriously as a candidate for the papacy itself. Wolsey loved luxury and ostentation. At the height of his power he was more King than Henry himself. Thomas Cromwell was born at Putney of humble parents. He served in the French army in Italy but returned to England about 1513 and engaged in cloth-dressing, money-lending, and legal practice. By 1520 he had entered the service of Cardinal Wolsey, serving him faithfully and speaking in his defence in the House of Commons in 1529. Both were called Thomas, both were totally ruthless in their own causes and both died after falling from disfavour due to factional plots. Wolsey managed to avoid being executed by dying first, however. 5b WRONG...try again! :-) |
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06 May 03 - 09:02 AM (#946917) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: HuwG 6. Who did Henry leave as Governor of the Realm and Captain-General of the Armed Forces when he went to war? What was Henry sent as a memento of a battle which occurred in England during this time? He left the Queen (Catherine) as Captain-General when he went off to invade France in 1513. The Scots, allied to France, invaded England and Catherine went off to the border to take charge. Before she got there, the Scots were beaten at Flodden by the army under Thomas Howard, Earl of Surrey. Catherine sent Henry a piece of the surcoat of King James IV of Scotland, who was killed at Flodden (along with many of his nobles and gentry, "The Flower of Scotland"). ... 11. What title was given to Henry's eldest son? What was his name? Henry had an illegitimate son, also named Henry, b. 1519, d. 1536, by Elizabeth Blount, Countess of Lincoln. The illegitimate Henry was ennobled as the Earl of Richmond. |
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06 May 03 - 09:03 AM (#946919) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: MMario 4a - between 6 foot 3 and 6 foot 4 4b - probably 35 inches |
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06 May 03 - 09:11 AM (#946922) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: DMcG I think 8 was more or less right, but the pamphlet wasn't just on the Eucharist, it was on all seven sacraments, againt the arguments of Martin Luther et al. |
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06 May 03 - 09:14 AM (#946924) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: MMario 16a - roughly 57,000 16b - about 250 times the number Mary I executed. and *she* was called Bloody Mary |
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06 May 03 - 09:28 AM (#946926) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: GUEST,Raedwulf 2. Married at 17. King at 17. Henry VIII was born 28th June 1491, Henry VII died 21st April 1509. Most sources say he was married at 18, but the date for marriage that I've found is 11th June 1509, which makes him 17 days short of 18. |
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06 May 03 - 09:30 AM (#946927) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: IanC OK ... I'm catching up slowly. Here's 1, 8, 13 and 19. 1. Henry was a second son and, as such, was intended for the priesthood. Until the age of 11, he was trained with this in mind and, for the first ten years of his life, Henry was a student of theology and was also taught classics (Greek and Latin), music and musical composition. As a boy, he was regarded as precociously intelligent and the liberal scope of the studies which he was made to pursue from his earliest years provided him with a uniquely broad education for a monarch of his time. 8. In 1521, Henry was given the title Fidei Defensor (Defender of the Faith) by Pope Leo X for a treatise, Assertio Septem Sacramentorum, written against Martin Luther and in vindication of the Church's dogmatic teaching regarding the sacraments and the sacrifice of the mass. Henry, in fact, remained orthodox in his personal doctrinal views throughout his reign. 13. Henry's strongest motivation for wanting a divorce from Catherine of Aragon was what he felt to be the need to provide a male heir to succeed him. The history of the previous century had been one of complete turmoil due in great part to the lack of a clear succession and even his father, Henry VII, had not been safe on his throne (despite having almost all of his possible rivals killed) until he had provided himself with a successor. Women were allowed to rule England but the previous history of women reigning was not significantly better than the mess which had developed during the Wars of the Roses. He wasn't to know that one of his daughters was to show that it could be done. Henry had explored the possibility of a divorce for some time before finally deciding on it as a course of action (by the time of his divorce, Catherine was unable to give him any more children) and had had a generally favourable reception from The Pope, who had at one point effectively said "Just do it, and it'll be accepted". It was very much Henry's bad luck that The Pope was, at the time, essentially a prisoner of Catherine's relatives. Her family were also, for political reasons, not very friendly with Henry at the time and so there was really no chance that he would get an annulment. Strangely enough, The Pope kept the door open for Henry by granting him a dispensation to marry Ann Boleyn provided he could get a divorce! 19. Henry most probably died of old age (he was 56, a considerable age in those days) exacerbated by being overweight and the associated lack of exercise. He had to be carried around for the last 3 years of his life, and his weight increased enormously at that time, following a serious accident. He also had leg ulcers which may have become gangrenous. Until some inaccurate 20th Century speculation, there was never any suggestion that he had syphilis or any other venereal disease. The speculation seems to be based on a combination of his leg ulcers and a reputation for having a bad temper in the last few years of his life. His physicians were among the best in Europe and had good knowledge of the use of mercury and other specifics as palliatives for VD, but none of these were ever used. Some of the other answers may not be accurate ... keep trying! :-) |
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06 May 03 - 10:06 AM (#946956) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: Dave Bryant 4a. I think MMario's figure is a bit on the high side - I'd say nearer 6' 2". 5a. 23 years 5b. Needlework ? 18. The marriage to Anne of Cleeves was a political alliance arranged by Cromwell. In reality she turned out to be nowhere as attractive as the portrait of her which Henry had been shown. He found her such a turn-off that he divorced her. 19. He had badly ulcerated legs which may have turned gangrenous, syphilis has often been speculated - no-one really knows. |
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06 May 03 - 10:21 AM (#946970) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: Stilly River Sage For those of you who still remember most of your Henry VIII trivia because you're old enough to have seen the first year of PBS's Masterpiece Theater, here is a link to the tape of The Six Wives of Henry VIII. (Here's a link for it at Amazon also.) Wonderful telling, considered very accurate. And in his early days, Henry was quite a handsome trim fellow. SRS |
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06 May 03 - 10:28 AM (#946975) Subject: DTADD Verse - Henry VIII From: Naemanson The words for the old music hall song "I'm Henery The Eighth I Am" are here. However they don't have the verse I usually sing when I do it. That verse is: One day the undertaker come and to me wife did say, "Have you any orders, Mum, we're rather slack today. I packed off all the other seven for the Pearly Gates, Give us a pound upon account, for Henery The Eighth." He measured me up with his half a yard of string. But I got on me marrow bones, I sang, "God Save The King!" |
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06 May 03 - 10:28 AM (#946976) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: DMcG Number 9. There are at least three threats I can think of, any of which could be 'the greatest' depending on your point of view: i) battles with France ii) battles with the Scots and at a more personal level iii) His enthusism for various risky sports (riding, archery, etc) These were reduced by i) the 'Cloth of Gold' agreements ii) various successful campaigns (from te English point of view, of course) iii) an accident which damaged his leg - and could have been fatal, I suppose - reduced and eventually stopped these particular pastimes. Hasn't (7) been essentially answered in your notes for 13? |
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06 May 03 - 10:33 AM (#946983) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: IanC DMcG - No. 7 has nothing to do with 13! :-) |
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06 May 03 - 10:43 AM (#946989) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: IanC Here's 11 and 12 ... 11. Henry's eldest son (as far as is known) was born of Henry's first mistress, Elizabeth Blount in 1519. Around New Year of 1514 Henry's eye was caught by Elizabeth Blount, the cousin of Lord Mountjoy and one of Queen Catherine's ladies-in-waiting. Bessie was pretty and vivacious, and quite happy to bask in the king's attention. She had his attention for several years, though Henry was also attentive to his wife during this period. The son, named Henry Fitzroy (Fitzroy is the official name for an acknowledged royal bastard), was given the title of Duke of Richmond in 1825. He died in 1536. 12. Henry spoke English and French fluently, also good Italian and he had an excellent grasp of Latin. Musically, he had been an early prodigy, playing a variety of instruments by the age of 10 and being a good performer on the harp, fife and drum among other instruments. He loved music and is known to have written a number of songs and tunes himself. :-) PS there's 2 awards ... the Sellar and Yeatman award for accuracy & detail and the Mark Twain award for the most outrageously inaccurate answer. Guess who's in line for them? |
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06 May 03 - 10:48 AM (#946993) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: DMcG Told you I was hopeless at history: 1513 is far too early for the divorce of Catherine, which I was thinking about. Then it must be the three-way alliance - England, Span and Rome - against France, which didn't come to anything because Spain wasn't in the mood, and France unsportingly conceded some land without a proper fight, just to irritate Henry. |
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06 May 03 - 11:20 AM (#947010) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: IanC 2, 4 and 6 ... 2. Henry was 17 when he acceded to the throne and he married a few weeks later. Both he and Catherine were crowned at his coronation at the age of 18. Catherine was 5 years older than Henry. 4. Henry was 6'2" and his waist measurement, aged 21, was 32". By the age of 31 it was 35" and by the time he died, aged 56, in 1547 it was 54". This is known because numerous suits of his armour survive. His girth is said to have increased by 17" in the last 4 years of his life. 6. When he went to war in France during 1513, Henry left Catherine in charge at home, officially titled Governor of the Realm and Captain-General of the Armed Forces. "Leaving a woman in charge" like this was unknown elsewhere in Europe at the time. On his return, and following the death of James IV of Scotland at the battle of Flodden, she sent him the bloodied coat of the dead monarch. The story of the French alliance at this time is not correct. James was married to Henry's younger sister Margaret and had, in fact, recently signed a friendship treaty with England. He was just being opportunistic in invading England, though he paid the price for it. The song associated with the famous lament "The Flowers of The Forest" was inspired by the terrible slaughter of the Scots at Flodden Field. MMario's answer to 16 is pretty wildly out. Anyone got any closer estimates? :-) |
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06 May 03 - 11:24 AM (#947013) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: DMcG No 16. I have seen a figure of less than a hundred somewhere. I think the difference might be something to do with formal definition. There were certainly many more than a hundred died during the Dissolution of the Monastories, which took place because of "heretical practices", but maybe very few of the victims were formally declared as heretics. |
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06 May 03 - 11:39 AM (#947026) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: GUEST,Sam Clem. Did you know - Henry had a hunting lodge in Hemel Hempstead He ripped down the Priory in Dunstable pretty badly because that's where a lot of the debate was held about Catherine Henry had a pet duck called Rupert |
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06 May 03 - 11:50 AM (#947040) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: IanC DMcG Re: 16 The only people (and there were very few) killed in association with the dissolution of the monasteries were definitely not executed for heresy. Here is one of the Henry VIII urban myths at play. :-) |
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06 May 03 - 01:46 PM (#947058) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: katlaughing According to one place I researched, during Henry VIII's reign, 81 heretics were executed. Looks like Mary had him beat by quite a bit at 280 during her time on the throne. The others, if the research is accurate, came out to: Henry VII- 24; Edward VI - 2; Elizabeth - 4. And, just think, Black Adder would have us believe Lizzie was chopping them off left and right!**BG** So, is this all more myth or are the numbers fairly accurate, oh Quiz Master? Great one, btw! kat |
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06 May 03 - 01:58 PM (#947070) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: NicoleC 5b In what domestic task did she take particular pride? Making his shirts. 11. What title was given to Henry's eldest son? What was his name? Arthur, Prince of Wales. I've lost track of which one's haven't been answered, or answered correctly. Oh Quizmaster, can we have a summary? |
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06 May 03 - 02:23 PM (#947101) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: Stilly River Sage You can dig up some interesting stuff in pursuit of trivia. (Trivia trivia?) If in 1513 the Pope who promised something to Henry VIII was Julius II, whatever was promised was probably nullified because Julius died that year. If the Pope in question was his successor, Leo X, perhaps his elephant wasn't cooperative when Henry wanted a ride. Leo was apparently a real character. Here's a short blurb from Wikipedia, some kind of "free" online encyclopedia.
Amazing stuff. Interesting quiz, if only because it has me out looking for some of these online resources. SRS |
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06 May 03 - 02:58 PM (#947127) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: DMcG re: 16/Urban myths: I protested that I'd said the people who died, not those who were executed,but the idea seemed to be enough to crash Mudcat, so I withdraw it :-) Henry always seemed to prefer charging people with treason to heresy anyway, so its not that easy to be certain. But since the Catholic Church always referred to 40 English Martyrs to cover the whole period from Henry to at least Elizabeth, the figure of 81 sounds consistant. Qn 20a: I'm not quoting the whole of what 1066 and all that had to say about Henry, but here's some of it: Henry VII was a strong king with a very strong sense of humour and VIII wives, memorable among whom were Katherine the Arrogant, Anne of Cloves, Lady Jane Austin amd Anne Hathaway. Qn20b: Was it accurate? Of course. |
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06 May 03 - 03:02 PM (#947132) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: MMario whoops - sorry my figure was for total executions - His reign probably contained more political executions than any other of comparable length in English history - 330 in the years 1532-40 alone |
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06 May 03 - 03:18 PM (#947151) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: MMario then I found this...According to Holinshed, who wrote 25 years after Henry's death, 72,000 thieves and vagabonds were hanged during his reign. approx 2% of the population. |
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06 May 03 - 04:17 PM (#947219) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: Stilly River Sage MMario, Twenty-five years after his death the story is liable to have gained some baggage and inflated numbers of hangings. Maybe there is a song from Henry's own time that give that kind of information? Swinging in the Reign perhaps? :) |
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06 May 03 - 04:54 PM (#947254) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: toadfrog No. 8 is "Defensor Fides," or defender of the faith, a title Henry achieved by writing (or having ghostwritten) a book refuting Martin Luther. I can't remember the name of the book. |
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06 May 03 - 05:31 PM (#947271) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: vectis You also have to include the numbers of monks who died of starvation and illness when they were thrown out of their monasteries. You should also include the numbers of sick, orphans, infirm, unemployed and unemployable (mentally ill and "idiots" ) who died when the local monastery that fed and clothed them, nursed them, gave then some work and sometimes housed them was closed. Nothing was put in their place for some time. |
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06 May 03 - 06:05 PM (#947304) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: Joe Offer Watch yer Latin, toadfrog. That's Defensor Fidei, and don't you forget it. Fides is nominative. What you want is the possessive, fidei, "of the faith." -Joe Pedant- |
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06 May 03 - 06:18 PM (#947314) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: katlaughing Just listen to Roger Miller singing... Our Joe swings as a pedant do He will post in Latin, back at you Fidei possessive, Henry's ol' faith Pedant Joe swings it back in your face! Hahaha! kat |
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07 May 03 - 04:04 AM (#947618) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: IanC Back again. Sorry, I lost the Mudcat last night and was unable to post any more. Summary soon. Just to be a bit pedantic Joe, it's actually Fidei Defensor ... Liz II's still claiming it on every british coin! ;-) |
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07 May 03 - 05:11 AM (#947659) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: IanC Right, some results ... Apart from N0.7 which we've been all around but nobody's yet got within 100 miles of, and NO.10 which nobody seems to have attempted, someone has come up with a reasonably close approximation to all of the questions. I'll put up my notes for the remaining questions asap. In the meantime, Vectis is running MMario a close second for the Mark Twain prize for his stuff about starving monks. I'll explain later. Kat has the Sellar and Yeatman prize so far! Here's the first few notes. 5. Henry and Catherine were married for 24 years, and the marriage was, for most of this time, a happy one. Even in the midst of an acrimonious separation, Henry never lost his respect for Catherine, and when she died he wore heavy mourning for her. Before marrying Henry, Catherine had been kept in increasing penury in the court of Henry VII for over 7 years and, even as queen of England, she took particular pride in sewing and mending Henry's shirts. 9. The nearest that Henry came to death during the whole of his reign was during jousting. On numerous occasions, he was badly injured falling from his horse (the last being in 1544, three years before his death). Shock, following a similar accident, is said to have been the cause of Ann Boleyn miscarrying a son in 1535. In 1526, Henry only survived by a miracle having been seriously wounded whilst jousting. As he became older, he was more of a spectator and less of a participant. However, he continued jousting until the age of 53. The risks may not have lessened very much, and the accident in 1544 which effectively ended his jousting career was probably also contributory to his death. :-) |
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07 May 03 - 06:45 AM (#947702) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: IanC Here's the rest ... 16. In a 38 year reign Henry executed 81 heretics, just over 2 a year. Apart from Mary, whose 5-year reign saw an average of 56 heretics executed each year, Henry's score was pretty high. However, this was partly a sign of the times (Henry was a Catholic king at the time of enormous religious changes sweeping Europe) and only Mary actively sought out heretics from all classes of society. The official score is Henry VII 24 years and 24 heretics (1.0), Henry VIII 38 years and 81 heretics (2.1), Edward VI 6 years and 2 heretics (0.3), Mary 5 years and 280 heretics (56), Elizabeth 45 years and 4 heretics (0.1). As regards deaths associated with the dissolution of the monasteries, 12 abbots (no junior clergy, monks or nuns) were executed for treason because they were implicated in the only armed revolt of Henry's reign, the so-called "Pilgrimage of Grace". Henry also summarily put to death the three great abbots of Glastonbury, Colchester, and Reading in the autumn of 1539 for constructive treason, as they had vigorously resisted the dissolution. The other abbots, as well as the affected clergy, monks and nuns, were treated very well, in the main being given very adequate pensions. A number of the more important abbots were made Bishops of new Dioceses which Henry created and quite a few of the monks became parish priests. Nuns were worse off, getting a smaller pension than the monks and having no real employment (or marriage) prospects. 18. Cromwell had persuaded Henry to marry Ann of Cleves for political reasons (though Cleves was not a particularly useful alliance. On the strength of a sketch by Holbein showing her as beautiful, Henry agreed to a betrothal. When she arrived, Henry went secretly to see her before they had officially met. He was, to put it in 19th Century terms, "not amused". Nonetheless, Cromwell was able to force Henry into a marriage. Henry soon had the marriage dissolved, however, with Ann's permission (he gave her a large pension) due to non-consummation. The incident was used by Cromwell's enemies in order to bring him down and he was beheaded not long afterwards. 20. Under the heading "Bluff King Hal", Sellars and Yeatman (1066 And All That) say "Henry VIII was a strong King with a very strong sense of humour and VIII wives.". On the surface, this is by no means completely accurate but (as usual) the Sellars and Yeatman is more penetrating when you know what they're talking about! Any offers for 7 and 10? :-) |
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07 May 03 - 06:56 AM (#947707) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: DMcG My favourite "1066 and All That" quotation - without the book in front of me - is that Henry V defeated the French by unfair tactics, such as having the army dressed as imitation tigers. It was years before I realised where that one came from! |
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07 May 03 - 07:36 AM (#947726) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: DMcG I've succumbed to web searches now. This site lists the members of Henry's household and this one that Wolsey had more than 1000. The first list cannot be counted as a few roles are just given as plural, but it certainly looks smaller than 1000. In 1525 Henry held a royal joust at Greenwich "with great and plentiful cheer" in a most princely manner. Also in 1525 Wolsey had given Hampton Court to Henry to try to regain some lost favours, so to hold a bigger Christmas bash than Henry seems unlikely: Henry has it, I think. |
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07 May 03 - 10:43 AM (#947829) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: IanC DMcG Well done (though actually wrong for the 2nd part) ... my source for this is a little more reliable than the internet, so I'm fairly sure it's accurate. The 2nd part was a bit of a trick question as it was a rather particular Christmas. 10. Wolsey kept a very grand house, having an establishment of 500 - about the same size as that of the King. During Christmas 1525, described as "The Still Christmas", Henry's Christmas celebrations were very quietly kept whereas the cardinal's were characterised by a vast and ostentatious display. In general Henry was not a particularly ostentatious King, though ornate celebrations, such as jousts and masques, were a feature of court life. Only No.7 left ... any takers??? :-) |
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07 May 03 - 10:59 AM (#947837) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: Bagpuss I know nowt about Henry VIII, but I am slightly confused by the answer to question 3. If it was forbidden in the Old Testament for a man to take his brother's wife after he died, why then did the Sadducees come up with the following question to catch out Jesus? -The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, saying: "Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were with us seven brothers. The first dies after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. Likewise the second also, and the third even to the seventh. And last of all the woman died also. Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her." Bagpuss |
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07 May 03 - 11:04 AM (#947841) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: IanC Noticed it myself ... however, that was the mediaeval church's interpretation. I suspect that 1st Century Jews discriminated between a wife and a widow, whereas the 15/16th Century church didn't. It's certainly true that on other, not dissimilar, matters (like the tradition of celibacy) the mediaeval church was more in line with 11th Century Northern European practises than 1st Century Jewish ones. :-) |
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07 May 03 - 11:05 AM (#947843) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: MMario heck - the Bible contricicts itself all over the place. #7 - the Throne of France - and he never got it because it was too short for him. |
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07 May 03 - 11:17 AM (#947852) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: katlaughing MMario! Dammit, I was just getting ready to post what I'd found and here ya are!**bg** The Pope did promise to make Henry, King of France IF he took physical possession of it. The real reason, I read, that he didn't get it was his treasury ran low of funds! Throne too small, indeed!**bg** |
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07 May 03 - 11:18 AM (#947854) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: IanC Good one MMario ... pays the piper! 7. In 1513, the Pope had, in secret, promised to recognise Henry as King of France if he could physically seize possession of the country. This generous offer had been inspired by French meddling in papal affairs. Henry was unable to seize the throne and, thus, never collected his prize. That's All Folks! ... Thanks. I've enjoyed reading all your contributions. By the way, here's a few quotes from previous threads. Do you still feel the same? Between creating a church, a condom company (well, kinda), and a place to get a nice divorce, the man doesn't deserve much more to his name. ... the claim that the wastrel Henry V111 wrote the tune is nonsense Henry VIII is acknowledged to have been a talented singer & musician, even composing music ("Pastime With Good Company" is probably best known). I've been led to beleive on several occasions (none of which I can recall to quote as an authority!) that Henry VIII composed quite a bit, this being one of the suitable occupations of a Renaissance gent in between persecuting the Irish and burning Catholics. As anyone in England will tell you, Henry VIII belched and slopped BEER over himself, whilst eating roast pheasant and the odd partridge. We like Henry VIII. Henry VIII and Pope Clement VII had their little tiff in 1534, which established the Church of England. Henry VIII was Hitler if you were catholic. It is often stated that Henry VIII was a better than average musician, and if Frederick the Great could write pieces why couldn't he? Before he became a old grouch with the clap Henry was every bit a Renaissance Man. If you had composed a melody and Henry VIII claimed he had, are you likely to have argued? Henry VIII's prowess as a composer has often been exaggerated, partly because of the romantic view of King Hal espoused by former historians of music, and partly because his subjects were doubtless obliged to be generous in their estimate of the king's abilities. :-) |
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07 May 03 - 11:45 AM (#947876) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: katlaughing Thank yew, Ian! Great fun! |
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07 May 03 - 12:09 PM (#947895) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: Stilly River Sage This was a very nice exercise in testing both memory and research skills. Not that I don't have to practice both every day, but the subject matter was quite entertaining! Thanks! SRS |
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07 May 03 - 01:15 PM (#947941) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: DMcG If you had composed a melody and Henry VIII claimed he had, are you likely to have argued? That one was mine - and I still reckon I wouldn't have argued! |
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07 May 03 - 01:33 PM (#947955) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: Naemanson Thanks, I always enjoy an opportunity to learn. There is some good stuff here. |
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07 May 03 - 01:45 PM (#947969) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: Melani Re: #13--Everything said so far about Henry wanting a son is true, but it's also true that he wanted Anne Bolyn. He had already had her sister Mary, who had developed quite a reputation at the court of France for being an enthusiastic bed-hopper, and when he tired of Mary, he married her off to a lesser noble. (Henry Carey?) Anne did not want to end up like her sister. She was betrothed to a young man who she apparently wanted to marry, and Henry forbid the marriage. If Anne had been willing to fool around, Henry probably would not have divorced Katherine, but Anne held out for Queen or nothing. She held Henry off for close to six years while he figured out how to divorce Katherine, but finally gave in just before the divorce was final. She is supposed to have married Henry secretly in January of 1533, and Elizabeth was born in September, indicating that she was cutting it rather fine. |
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07 May 03 - 08:16 PM (#948200) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: vectis What do you mean?!!! SECOND??? :-( |
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08 May 03 - 04:15 AM (#948421) Subject: RE: Quiz - Henry VIII From: IanC Vectis It's hard to beat MMario's estimate of 57,000 for the number of heretics Henry VIII executed, even with hordes of dying monks. Now if you'd been a bit more accurate about numbers (say 20 million or so) ... Sorry! :-( |