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08 Jun 03 - 11:57 AM (#964016) Subject: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST,New York City It would seem that the terrorist troika of the Palestinians, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Arafat's own Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade will do all that they can to prevent peace talks and a two state solution between Isreal and the Palestinians. Their latest actions, which you can raed about by clicking here are aimed at provoking further retaliation by Isreal. Obviously, the ones who will suffer most because of these terrorists are the Palestinian people themselves. On Saturday, Hamas met with Islamic Jihad and other radical factions, and participants agreed they would not stop bombings and shootings. |
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08 Jun 03 - 01:08 PM (#964047) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: artbrooks Yes, Guest NYC, some things are not likely to change. I also did not see an announcement that the Israeli government had pledged to remove all settlements beyond the Green Line now or when/if peace ever broke out, or to stop destroying the homes of the families of people who were involved or are suspected of involvement in attacks. What, exactly, did you intend by bringing this subject up yet again, other than jerking the chains of some of the Mudcat community's residents (the ones with names) whose opinions on this are well known? |
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08 Jun 03 - 03:55 PM (#964116) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: mg How about some respect for all parties trying to do their best, under cultural conditions we can't understand, religious indoctrination that we can't comprehend etc. I think a more accurate title might be some Palestinians aim to destroy peace process while most have some degree of hope for it. mg |
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08 Jun 03 - 07:17 PM (#964203) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: toadfrog Mary, I might agree about some of the things you say, but not about the title of the thread. The most accurate title is "COME FEED THE TROLL"! |
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08 Jun 03 - 09:45 PM (#964278) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Bobert Well, I certainly hope and pray that this time it will be different. I really do. With all of my heart. But I don't see any reason why it will be different. The same obsticles still exist and folks aren't talking about them seriously. Yeah, Isreal still wants the Palestinians to submit to Isreal's preconditions and the Palestianians still want the settlers and army occupation forces to leave. To further comlplicate matters, the US does noe have good working relations with the Aran nations, who are a vital part of success in any Middle East peace, because it invaded and is now occupying Iraq. Hmmmmmm? I think all we are seeing is some politaical posturing but no real progress toward settling this major human crisis. I hope I'm wrong, but don't think so. This is more about political polls than leadership, I fear. Bobert |
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09 Jun 03 - 08:33 AM (#964476) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST,New York City From today's NY Times. |
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09 Jun 03 - 10:23 AM (#964524) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST Just heard on the radio that Israel's response to yesterday's terrorist murders has been to begin dismantling its West Bank outposts. Israel's Sharon, it would seem, is committed to the roadmap to peace. |
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09 Jun 03 - 10:54 AM (#964534) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST,New York City Children shot in third day of Israeli army raids |
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09 Jun 03 - 12:52 PM (#964595) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Little Hawk All the usual parties who are normally opposed to the peace process (or what they may term "appeasement") will continue being opposed to it. This includes militant Palestinians, militant Israelis, arms dealers, religious fanatics on both sides, politicians who stand to gain or maintain power through further conflict, and so on... This is the same as to say "There are some people in this world who have violent intentions and are dangerous." Yes, indeed. So? - LH |
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09 Jun 03 - 02:10 PM (#964638) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Mark Clark In his 1954 novel about the Mau Mau uprising, Robert Rurak quotes the following Basuto proverb: If a man does away with his traditional way of living and throws away his good customs, he had better first make certain that he has something of value to replace them.From the Palestinian point of view, suppose a determined group of illegal immigrants, claiming to be acting on orders from God, began flooding your country despite your best efforts to stop them. Then suppose those illegal immigrants started performing acts of disruption and terrorism within your country. Then suppose the international community decided your country wasn't yours any longer but now belonged to the illegal immigrants who had been disrupting your social order and was prepared to enforce its decision with military force. Now suppose you are hated and marginalized in what had been your country and wherever you tried to go, the new masters swarmed in and pushed you out. Would you be pissed off? Would you be pissed off enough to kill somebody? Would it make any difference that you couldn't possibly win a military victory or would you still just want to blow somebody up? Attention, Washington! Is anybody awake? - Mark |
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10 Jun 03 - 03:46 AM (#964926) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Teribus Mark, If what you describe as the situation as seen from the Palestinian point of view is correct, it is at great variance to facts that can be easily checked in the records of The League of Nations and its successor organisation, The United Nations. The initial acts of disruption and terrorism you refer to were instigated by one, Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in 1920, 1929 and between 1936 and 1939. These were all Arab initiated revolts involving attacks against the Jewish population at large, moderate Palestinian leaders who expressed any view regarding reaching some form of accommodation with the Jews, and the British Mandate Authorities. The pretext for the revolts were based on rumours of attacks on Arabs by Jewish settlers. In every instance, investigations by the British Authorities and by Representatives of the League of Nations, proved conclusively that no such attacks had occurred, they were, in short, complete fabrications. After the 1920 riots, Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, was arrested, tried and sentenced to 15 years hard labour for his involvement in the riots. He was "allowed" to escape to Syria, and he reappeared in Jerusalem in 1922 where he was proclaimed Grand Mufti by the British Authorities (He was the son of the former Mufti of Jerusalem). The 1929 riots were basically a re-run of 1920, the only difference being that the Jewish population had, in the wake of 1920, now created a militia organisation for self-defence (The Haganah). Alerted to his totally uncompromising anti-Zionist stance, the British removed the Grand Mufti during the 1936-1939 Arab Revolt. Muhammed Amin al-Husseini actively advocated support for Nazi Germany and finally fled to Germany were he remained until the end of the Second World War. After the war Muhammed Amin al-Husseini lived in exile in Egypt, where he was Yasser Arafat's mentor. The international community did not give the country to the illegal immigrants. What the international community did do was to restrict Jewish settlement to an area of around 20% of the total land area of Palestine. This restriction only applied to Jewish settlement, the Palestinians were free to live anywhere in the Mandate Territory. This was accepted by the Jewish community, but rejected by the Arab Council. |
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10 Jun 03 - 01:49 PM (#965213) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Mark Clark Teribus, I didn't mean to be writing or re-writing history. I was only trying to point out what the conflict looks like from a Palestinian point of view. Palestinians aren't a bunch of towel-headed, camel jockeying, sand n****rs, they are an ancient and vital people who have been seriously f***ed over by the rest of the world for at least as long as the Jewish people have been f***ed over. Niether group is derserving of the hatred often aimed at them. Your historical examples, while accurate by themselves, are a couple of incidents in a much bigger picture. Your examples contain facts but I find them somewhat lacking in truth. For a surprisingly neutral albeit high-level account of events in the history of Palestine, check out some of the articles on the history of Palestine at Arab.Net and especially, the article entitled Jewish-Arab Conflict. These articles aren't the ravings of mad terrorists but studied and reasoned accounts by professional journalists in the Middle East. To be sure, the Israeli-Pelestinian conflict is extremely complex and probably won't find a just and lasting solution in our lifetime or our children's children's lifetime. One idea that people everywhere need to let go is the idea that God likes some people more than others or supports particular political causes. Another idea that isn't helpful is the largely American fantasy that every problem can be reduced to good guys and bad guys. The present situation was largly created by the world community and isn't going to be solved without help from the world community. But to take sides in the conflict or simply permit the extermination of one group by the other is not the way to peace. - Mark |
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10 Jun 03 - 03:11 PM (#965273) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Little Hawk So, Teribus, are any people whom you happen to feel a natural affinity for in any given conflict "without sin"...and therefore justified in casting the next stone? Or has there been a series of errors on all sides? What will correct those errors? More fighting...or forgiveness and compromise and mutual accommodation? You know, it all comes down to very basic stuff like money, firepower, and strong allies...those who have such things are lording it over those who don't, and the ones presently on the bottom of the pecking order are blowing themselves up in marketplaces. All these grandiose pretensions of moral justification and "defence" that you hear from Israel, the USA, or Hamas are just propaganda and window-dressing to whip up the emotions of the voters and foot soldiers. Those voters and foot soldiers will always believe that the other side cast the first stone. It doesn't matter anymore who cast the first stone! That is not the problem here. The problem is that people are still doing it. - LH |
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10 Jun 03 - 07:13 PM (#965446) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: McGrath of Harlow Well some people sure seem to be doing their damnnest to stop any peace process. Israel launches fresh Gaza strike "Three Palestinians from the same family were killed and at least 30 people wounded in the latest attack near the town of Jabaliya" Surely that is terrorism by any standards, and it has to be intended to torpedo any hope of getting a ceasefire. |
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10 Jun 03 - 09:25 PM (#965512) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Bobert If this were boxing match, the Palestianians would be the ones hopelessly trapped in the corner, taking blows after blows. Like I've said before, when you have one side that is so superior in fire power, it is that party whose ear you must get first. And I have also over the last two years been consistent in my belief that both parties need to stop fighting. And I have also satted over anfd over that the US holds the power to make it happen and as long as it doesn't happen, I hold the uS as accountable as either of the parties. Now T-Bird is going to give me some dumbass home work assignment here as a destration but we all know that the US, if it wished acn broker this deal. It just going to take courage and the setting aside of powerfull lobbies that want the conflict perpetuated... Bobert |
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11 Jun 03 - 06:51 AM (#965690) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace process From: Teribus "ArabNet is owned by ArabNet Technology (ANT), part of the Saudi Research and Marketing Group, publisher of the leading newspapers and magazines in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia including Asharq Al-Awsat. The managing director of ANT is Mr. Yasser El Dabbagh, who welcomes all feedback." And this is what Mark Clark offers up as; "a surprisingly neutral albeit high-level account of events in the history of Palestine, check out some of the articles on the history of Palestine at Arab.Net and especially, the article entitled Jewish-Arab Conflict. These articles aren't the ravings of mad terrorists but studied and reasoned accounts by professional journalists in the Middle East." I am sure that the world and it's uncle are aware of the fact that freedom of the press is of paramount importance in Saudi Arabia. The, "neutral albeit high-level account of events", detailed in the link referred to are over-simplistic and broad brushed to the point idiocy. The solution to the conflict requires that both sides face up to, and acknowledge, the lies and errors of the past - that exercise is an essential part of reconciliation. The examples I gave are accurate accounts of what transpired as deduced from numerous investigations. The riots were instigated on the basis of completely unfounded lies and fabrications - that is not only fact, it is accurate, it is the truth. That has to be acknowledged by the religious and political leadership of the Palestinians and they must ensure that their people know that and are taught that. Bobert says above that, "we all know that the US, if it wished can broker this deal." - Hell as like Bobert, there is not an Arab on this earth who would ever regard the United States as an honest broker regarding this conflict. The UN can broker this deal with the wholehearted support of the United States - that is a completely different matter and would stand some chance of success. Mark Clark is perfectly correct when he says, "The present situation was largly created by the world community and isn't going to be solved without help from the world community." The operative word is help, no solution can be imposed, the parties immediately involved have to come to the realisation that they do live in the same area and that their best interests are served in adopting, and maintaining, peaceful co-existence with each other. The State of Israel is an established fact, its existence is recognised by the United Nations. The Palestinians must universally recognise that as an unassailable fact. The Jews are not going to be driven back into the sea, the Palestinians are not going to recover the land they held in 1947 - and its about time that realisation was brought home to all and accepted once and for all. |
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11 Jun 03 - 09:01 AM (#965755) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Bobert Unless you forgot, the Bush administration stuck a stake in the heart of the United Nations when it attacked Iraq. The United Nations now needs to be overhauled before it will have any credibility and the overhaul has to begin with the US making it painfully clear that it's policy of pre-emption is a thing of the past. Either the US is going to be a partner and obey international law or it isn't. Can't have it both ways and as long as it isn't then forget the UN as a body that negiotiate or mediate a danged thing.... Bobert |
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11 Jun 03 - 09:09 AM (#965763) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST,New York City First of all, I did not make the posting of 09 Jun 03 - 10:54 AM. Someone was obviously trying to discredit my position by providing a link, under my handle, to an anti-Israel publication. Unfortunately, the computer that I use is unable to accept cookies, hence I cannot sign in and am vulnerable to unethical parties who post here. Secondly, what McGrath describes as terrorism by the Israelis was, in fact, a military retaliation. The Israelis retaliated for the latest terrorist hits on Israeli soldiers and civilians, by attempting to assassinate Abdel Aziz Rantisi, a senior leader of the terrorist organization Hamas. They did this several days after the new Palestinian premier, Mahmoud Abbas, publicly declared that he would "under no circumstances" act against Hamas, and after Hamas itself had publicly pledged to continue terror strikes on Israel. From his hospital bed, Rantisi repeated his call for the extermination of all "criminal Zionists" -- an expression which in the Hamas lexicon means all those Jews not descended exclusively from Arab forebears (who would thus be entitled to "dhimmi" or protected minority status in return for paying special taxes under an Islamic theocracy). The terorist murderers of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Arafat's Alqsa Martyrs Brigade, and their puppetmasters like Abdel Aziz Rantisi, choose to hide themselves like cowards among innocent civilians. Israel cannot not go after such murderers and Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Arafat's Alqsa Martyrs Brigade know that. They need the rage of the Palestinian masses for their support, so they commit actions that they know will fuel that rage. Israel will not stop retaliating for terrorist hits. Nor, for that matter, will they be stopped from dismantling West Bank settlements, if they can see the prospect of something in return. In yesterday's case, there was nothing in return: for Mr. Abbas had already declared he wouldn't himself act against Hamas. Israel will not stop retaliating for terrorist hits. Nor, for that matter, will they be stopped from dismantling West Bank settlements, if they can see the prospect of something in return. In yesterday's case, there was nothing in return: for Mr. Abbas had already declared he wouldn't himself act against Hamas. The Israelis will make hard decisions, but not suicidal ones, and granting an open season on Jews to Palestinian terrorists would be suicidal. |
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11 Jun 03 - 10:03 AM (#965791) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland I don't know why people should post to this because all it does is causes tension between people, and I think that Guest New York City (TROLL) should stop posting these horrible posts. And people shouldn't answer them because all they do is cause trouble. So do us all a favour and stop posting on them. |
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11 Jun 03 - 10:04 AM (#965792) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland I hope that makes sense. I don't mind people given out their opinions however there is a time and a place for them. |
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11 Jun 03 - 10:04 AM (#965793) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland PS. And the Jews don't |
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11 Jun 03 - 11:15 AM (#965835) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST,New York City It seems there are Mudcatters who, when they don't want to debate their opinions on the merits of information, label those they disagree with as TROLL as busbitterfraeSaltcoatsScotland does above. Then busbitterfraeSaltcoatsScotland stoops to using an anti-Semitic slur. That says a lot more more about you than anything I could say. |
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11 Jun 03 - 11:26 AM (#965848) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Teribus From the link supplied by MGOH: "Mr Rantissi, who was lightly wounded, said Hamas would avenge the attack and continue to fight Israel until every last "Zionist" was gone." There is not one jot of difference between this statement and the views openly expressed by Muhammed Amin al-Husseini eighty-three years ago when he deliberately spread lies to initiate attacks against unarmed Jewish settlers. Talks between the Palestinian Authority, Hamas and the other Palestinian terrorist groups are at a stand-still. Under such circumstances the following comment by the Israelis is understandable, even although it is undesireable at a time when restraint would be more effective; "A senior Israeli military source told the BBC that more attacks could be expected against Hamas leaders - both political and military - as long as the group continued attacking Israelis." Also from the link supplied by MGOH: "The attack in Jabaliya came after Palestinians fired rockets at Israel from across the border in Gaza,..." To use Kevin's own words - "Surely that is terrorism by any standards, and it has to be intended to torpedo any hope of getting a ceasefire." Bobert's comment - "..the Bush administration stuck a stake in the heart of the United Nations when it attacked Iraq." - over-dramatic clap-trap Bobert. The credibility of the United Nations will be restored the instant the UN demonstrates that when confronted by a rapidly deteriorating situation that it can act with purpose and resolve. |
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11 Jun 03 - 12:05 PM (#965869) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST Just heard on the news, two Hamas suicide bombers have killed 15 Israelis and wounded at least 70 more today in Jerusalem. |
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11 Jun 03 - 12:06 PM (#965870) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland Another person that can't take any critisim, The Jews are just as bad as the Arabs. Are you a Jew, or unlike do you support in what the jews are doing to the Arabs. IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO There people like me who wants to see Peace in the middle east but until the jews and the Arabs stop fighting and sit down and talk, then there will never be peace in the middle east. That's all I have to say on the matter, I shall leave you alone, and as I said do not reply to this message please. Tom |
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11 Jun 03 - 12:11 PM (#965877) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST,New York City Well, well, well. busbitterfraeSaltcoatsScotland certainly does show his anti-Semitic and anti-Arab racism in the above post. Yes, I can take criticism. Attempting to shut down debate by calling someone a troll, or resorting to anti-Semitism is not, as you call it, "critisim." (sic) |
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11 Jun 03 - 12:11 PM (#965878) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland The Jews and the Arabs should treat each other as fellow human beings, because after all Abraham was the father of the two that strated the Arab and Jewish relgions, Issac and Ishmeil. So much for families. As I said please don't post a message to this. Because i am fed up with it. Tom |
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11 Jun 03 - 12:34 PM (#965895) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST Well Tom, you may be fed up, but you need to understand a few things. The word "Jew" is not synonomous with Israel. To slur Jews for what *you* perceive as an Israeli wrong, is anti-Semitic. Abraham was not "he father of the two that strated the Arab and Jewish relgions, Issac and Ishmeil." (sic) According to the biblical legend, Abraham himself was the first Jewish patriarch. Isaac continued that lineage. "Arab," as you put it, is not a religion. The Arabs consider themselves to be the decendants of Ishmael. The religion of the vast majority of Arabs is Islam, some are also Christians. The Islamic religion was founded in the 7th century AD, in what is now Saudi Arabia, by Mohammed. Islam was founded approximately 3,000 years after the birth of Judaism and 600+ years after the founding of Christianity. |
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11 Jun 03 - 12:37 PM (#965896) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland I was going to tell that I support both the Jews and the Arabs. But then why should I because you wouldn't listen. So do me a favour, and don't add to this post and just go away. Leave me in peace. Goodbye. PS If you think I'm telling lies then that's up to you. |
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11 Jun 03 - 12:43 PM (#965900) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST "Who gives the right to tell me or anyone else what to or what not write on the Internet...Well as I say I have the right to say what I want." That's what Tom or busbitterfraeSaltcoatsScotland said in the Tony Blair thread on March 22. I guess he believes in free speech as long as its his free speech. |
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11 Jun 03 - 12:46 PM (#965903) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland I just wish Someone had told me that, the reason I say Jew and Arab is because I amd not good at spelling. Thank you guest for that, I am also a Christian. I only support my fellow human beings and I don't care who they are or what their faith is. I'm a very simple person who just wants a peaceful life. Tom I know that you'll say "if you wanted a peaceful life, then you shouldn't of posted a message onto the post." and you know you're right. All it was a first was slip of the finger on the mouse. Tom |
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11 Jun 03 - 01:10 PM (#965914) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland What I meant as 'adding to the post' was don't answer my messages please, However you can write what you want on the post. Sorry about that Guest. Tom |
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11 Jun 03 - 01:42 PM (#965928) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Little Hawk Actually, a military retaliation to an act of terrorism can itself be an act of terrorism, and usually is. I'll give some historical examples from the frontier period in North America. Whites frequently practiced terrorism on Indians, shooting them down with or without provocation, scalping them for bounty money, raping their women, and burning their villages. Indians frequently practiced terrorism on Whites, shooting them down with or without provocation, scalping them for prestige, raping their women, and burning their cabins and other possessions. Indians and Whites also practiced terrorism on other Indians and Whites similar to themselves, and on Mexicans, while Mexicans did more of the same on all the above parties at various times. Most of these acts were considered to be legitimate forms of military retaliation against...terrorism. Keep in mind that terrorism is simply this: A violent act against an identifiable group of people with the intention of killing them, terrorizing them into submission, having revenge upon them, or driving them off a particular area of land. Terrorism is practiced by hidden groups of guerilla fighters, by hidden criminal gangs, and by uniformed and official armed forces of nations, and even by uniformed police on occasion. Governments in the World have tried to dodge this issue by attempting to give the impression through their largely controlled media that only people out of uniform and not acting for a government can be deemed "terrorists". That's a lie. Plain and simple. All organized killers who seek to terrorize are committing terrorism. And the only way to stop it is to first stop doing it yourself and then seek a better way of resolving problems with your neighbours. Endlessly pointing out how evil the "other guy" is will not solve the problem. - LH |
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11 Jun 03 - 02:06 PM (#965944) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST busbitterfraeSaltcoatsScotland, You can't make provocative statements in a public forum and then demand that no one respond to you. The world just doesn't work that way. |
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11 Jun 03 - 02:39 PM (#965961) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland Well I'm sorry about that and all those other things that I said, so please forgive me. And I don't mind you or anyone else answering my messages, I just a simple lad, and I write things that I can understand, I don't mean to upset people, I just say what I think, i sometimes get things wrong and or I write things that some people don't agree with, however that's me, and if I have upset anyone with the messages that I have writing then I'm sorry. Tom |
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11 Jun 03 - 03:10 PM (#965979) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland I seem to be saying sorry to a number memebers and non members on this website. As I said I say things and write things the way I see them, I might be putting my views over all wrong, as I'm just a simple lad, I don't much brain power that some of you have, and also I don't use big words when small words will do. So please forgibe me and when you are talking to me, please write in a way that I can understand. thanks Tom |
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11 Jun 03 - 03:26 PM (#965986) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Ebbie Tom, we're saying, I think, that if you don't want others to answer your statements, don't make them. If you do make them, others have as much right to answer as you have to make them. Freedom of speech works both ways. |
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11 Jun 03 - 07:14 PM (#966106) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST,New York City This book by Baruch Kimmerling and Joel S. Migdal has the best analysis of the history of Israel I have seen. You can read a review of it by clicking here |
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11 Jun 03 - 08:26 PM (#966161) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: McGrath of Harlow True enough, there's a difference between an atempt to assassinate someone who is directing terrorist attacks and an attack aimed directly at civilians. But I suspect that an attempt by Hamas to assassinate Sharon would probably be viewed as terrorism. This won't stop till one side refuses to retaliate. And it seems to me that, so far as the present leaders of the terrorist organisations are concerned, that is the last thing they want to see happen. I'd see that as including the most powerful of those organisations, the current Israeli government. |
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12 Jun 03 - 02:22 AM (#966296) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Teribus Sorry Kevin, but you just cannot equate the two (Israeli Government and Hamas, et al). The Palestinian terrorist groups are not the elected representatives of the Palestinian people, they are self appointed guardians of what they perceive to be the best interests of the Palestinian people (that normally coincides with what happens to be in their best financial interest as well - if you doubt that take a look at Arafats bank balance) The Palestinian terrorist groups almost invariably mount totally indescriminate attacks specifically aimed at Israeli civilians - they very rarely take on the IDF, for good cause, any time they have they have come off decidedly second best. The Israeli Government is the democratically elected representatives of the people of the state of Israel, and as such have a sworn duty to protect the citizens of that state. Throughout the term of the current Intifada the Israeli Government has always been prepared to talk - on the sole condition that terrorist attacks stop. The Palestinian Terrorist Groups on the other hand have never come out with a similar statement. They are consistant in their demands and in their ultimate goal - the destruction of the state of Israel - And that is not going to happen. For any progress to be made it is this side of the conflict that must move first. |
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12 Jun 03 - 02:56 AM (#966303) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland Thank you for telling me. As I said I'm sorry, I now know that Freedom of Speech works both ways. Thank you for clearing that up Tom |
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12 Jun 03 - 11:08 AM (#966399) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Forum Lurker Actually, Teribus, it had appeared a couple days ago that Sharon was willing to make concessions even before the cessation of terrorist attacks. The scale of yesterday's violence may threaten that. |
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12 Jun 03 - 11:19 AM (#966407) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST A couple of Guardian articles today: Oona King article Is Sharon to blame? Israelis wonder |
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12 Jun 03 - 03:23 PM (#966502) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST Some important questions about America's war on terrorism and pictures of yesterday's terroristic Hamas suicide bombing can be seen here. |
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12 Jun 03 - 06:42 PM (#966603) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: McGrath of Harlow I didn't "equate" the two organisations, I said that they are both engaged in terrorism. |
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12 Jun 03 - 07:20 PM (#966615) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST Don't apologize to these pro-Israeli turds, Tom. Israel is the biggest terrorist state in the Mid East and doesn't WANT peace. Israel helped FOUND their biggest terrorist enemey, Hamas, so the fighting could go on. You're apologizing to people who KNOW all this, too. The Jews who promote a continuation of violence against Arabs are anti-Semites (Arabs are semites, too), and the Jews who try to play that 'race card' against you are resorting to underhanded methods name-calling because they can't justify their support of murder in any rational way. |
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12 Jun 03 - 08:03 PM (#966636) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST,native BOBERT IS THE ONLY ONE THAT MAKES SENSE> I WAS IN PALISTINE WHEN THERE WAS JEWISH TERRORISTS |
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13 Jun 03 - 11:05 AM (#966773) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland Thanks Guest. |
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14 Jun 03 - 05:46 PM (#966981) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST,Helen S Don't get upset period Tom. A state of peace goes against the agendas of some Iraelis some Americans some Arabs and some Palestinians. It's not complicated to state but awfully messy to solve. Of course the majority want to live without the threat of gunpowder. The emotional poster who starts all these threads under different names and often from different stated locations just seems to get a kick out of the constant exposure. One reason that Mudcat works is that sometimes posters remain anonymous in hot button threads so as not to get into personal spats. |
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16 Jun 03 - 01:37 PM (#967092) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST Israel's new Army |
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16 Jun 03 - 04:33 PM (#967190) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland Thanks Helen Tom |
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16 Jun 03 - 10:40 PM (#967341) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST Here's a very interesting story of a Palestinian who has embraced Zionism. Click here to see it. |
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17 Jun 03 - 06:44 AM (#967483) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Teribus Correct me if I am wrong Kevin but it was you who submitted the following: "And it seems to me that, so far as the present leaders of the terrorist organisations are concerned, that is the last thing they want to see happen. I'd see that as including the most powerful of those organisations, the current Israeli government." You specifically refer to the leaders of the terrorist organisations and then further amplify that by going out of your way to describe the Israeli Government as the most powerful of those organisations. And then you come back and say that you do not equate them - remarkable, absolutely remarkable. |
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17 Jun 03 - 06:56 AM (#967490) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Teribus Little Hawk, Your historical parallel is, as usual, flawed. As for: "the only way to stop it is to first stop doing it yourself and then seek a better way of resolving problems with your neighbours." I would dearly love to hear how this approach could be applied to the current situation vis-a-vis the Palestinians and Israelis. Its the seeking a better way of resolving the problems with your neighbours while those neighbours continue to deliberately target your civilian population totally indiscriminately using bombs, rockets, mortars and guns - that's the bit I would like to see explained - so, I am sure, would the bulk of the Israeli population. |
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17 Jun 03 - 11:57 AM (#967692) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST The Arab war against Israel is no more a territorial conflict than was al Qaeda's strike against America, and it can no more be resolved by the "road map" than anti-Americanism could be appeased by ceding part of the U.S. to an Islamist enclave. From the moment in 1947 when Jewish leaders accepted and Arab rulers rejected the U.N. partition plan of Palestine, the Arab-Israeli conflict bore no further likeness to more conventional territorial struggles. Arab rulers defied the U.N. charter by denying the legitimacy of a member state. Arab countries refused to acknowledge the existence of a single Jewish land. Arab rulers did not object to Israel because it rendered the Palestinians homeless. Rather, they ensured that the Palestinians should remain homeless so that they could organize their politics around opposition to Israel. At any point during the past 55 years, Arab governments could have helped the Palestinian Arabs settle down to a decent life. They could have created the infrastructure of an autonomous Palestine on the West Bank of the Jordan and the Gaza territory that Egypt controlled until 1967, or encouraged the resettlement of Palestinians in Jordan, which constitutes the lion's share of the original mandate of Palestine. Rather than fund the Palestine Liberation Organization to foment terror against Israel they could have endowed Palestinian schools of architecture, engineering, medicine and law. What Israel did for its refugees from Arab lands, Arabs could have done much more sumptuously for the Palestinians displaced by the same conflict. Instead, Arab rulers cultivated generations of refugees in order to justify their ongoing campaign against the "usurper." Hitler used the supposedly illegitimate presence of the Jews as the excuse for tightening control over all the instruments of state. His promise to rid Germany of "the Jewish vermin" ushered in an assault on democratic culture that gained popular support by targeting an unpopular minority. Anti-Semitism camouflaged the Nazi will to power and the imposition of totalitarian controls: In the name of limiting the "influence" of the Jews, Hitler delimited the power of the courts, the media, and the educational system. The Nazis had everyone debating the question of the Jews rather than questioning the legitimacy of the discriminatory laws against them. In almost identical ways, the autocrats who govern Arab societies have used the "Zionist entity" to deflect attention from the worst aspects of their rule. The unwanted presence of the Jews became the rallying point for internal dissatisfaction with the mounting problems of Arab regimes. The drumbeat against Israel invited the world to debate the iniquities of the Jews rather than question the legitimacy of the attacks against them. This comparison is not intended to equate the Germans with the Arabs, except in the ways that both exploited anti-Semitism to achieve broader political goals. Both used the alleged threat of "the Jews" to excuse their own failures. Anti-Semitism in both situations linked otherwise warring groups of the Left and Right. The problem with anti-Semitism in its older and newer varieties is that it seems to serve its patrons so well. Without question, Arab rulers successfully deflected attention from their offenses by their decades of war and propaganda against Israel. Even the liberal Western media that might have been expected to support a besieged fellow democracy have long since focused on alleged Israeli abuses instead of on the abuses of their Arab accusers. But, just as happened in Europe, the Arab obsession with Israel grew increasingly destructive not only of its Jewish targets but also of the sponsoring regimes. Attacking Jews consumed energy that should have been directed at alleviating the misery of Arab subjects. Blaming the Jews postponed democratization, which begins with people taking responsibility for themselves. Moreover, anti-Semitism metastasizes very quickly; its culture of hatred and its appeal to violence cannot be contained. Although Arab governments tried to direct the war against Israel according to their political needs, Islamist and nationalist groups espousing the same ideology sprang up independently, sometimes in defiance of government control. Anti-Semitism morphed into anti-Americanism -- not because America supported Israel but because America represented the same challenges of an open, democratic, competitive society. The Jews' function as a bulwark of democracy was determined by the despots who tried to crush them. America did not so much fight on the side of the Jews as find itself forced to tackle the anti-Jews. |
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17 Jun 03 - 12:14 PM (#967712) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST Joe Lieberman and the lunatic fringe of biblical prophecy And why do evangelical Christians give so generously to move poor Russian Jews to Israel? Eckstein's critics say the answer lies in evangelical Christians' preoccupation with End Times prophesy. "From their worldview," notes Nikhil Aziz, a researcher with Political Research Associates, a Massachusetts-based think tank, "the permanent establishment of Israel is a prerequisite for the second coming of Christ." According to many evangelicals, the Second Coming will be preceded by the establishment of Israel and the return of all the Jews. The Jews will construct the "Third Temple," and there will be a great battle. When Christ reappears, those Jews who remain alive will be given a choice: convert or die. "The support from the religious right is not so much support for Israel for political convictions, but support for Israel because of theological convictions," says Weldon Gaddy, founder and executive director of the Interfaith Alliance, a liberal Washington group. "And this is one part of a strategy for seeing the conversion of Jews." |
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17 Jun 03 - 12:44 PM (#967744) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Forum Lurker GUEST of 12:14-There are perfectly good humanitarian and foreign relations reasons. It's usually safer to assume that any given person is rational until proven otherwise, and I see no reason to believe that Lieberman's religious convictions are stronger than his professional convictions. The very article you posted a link to questions the conclusions you're making. |
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17 Jun 03 - 12:47 PM (#967748) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST Famous Zionist Leaders Quotes: Based On Declassified Israeli Documents & Personal Diaries Chaim Weizmann Quotes Even in the early 1920s, the Zionists goals were not popular among many Jewish comminutes around the world. However, the Zionist Organization, with Weizmann's leadership, was a able to erect a powerful lobbying facade in England and the United States as if they were speaking on behalf of all Jews, and in that regard Chaim Weizmann stated: "The Balfour Declaration of 1917 was built on air ... every day and every hour of these last 10 years, when opening the newspapers, I thought: Whence will the next blow come? I trembled lest the British Government would call me and ask: 'Tell us, what is this Zionist Organization? Where are they, your Zionists?' ... The Jews, they knew, were against us [the Zionists]; we stood alone on a little island, a tiny group of Jews with a foreign past." (UN: The Origins And Evolution Of Palestine Problem, section V) Looting, Looting, and More Looting: By the Israeli historian-journalist Tom Segev. |
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17 Jun 03 - 01:38 PM (#967780) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST Just to clarify...the Pentagon did the Sept 11 bombings. They are the only organization capable of carrying out such a complex operation, and they ordered the NORAD interceptor jets to stand down during the hijackings. I point this out because the illegitimate US govt fabricated the event, just like Israel supports Hamas in order to fabricate terrorist events. The GOVERNMENTS of the world are the terrorist problem. They fund terrorism as a way to rally citizens behind unpopular causes, like militarization and relinquishment of rights. Israel needs to stop supporting its rival terrorist organizations, just like the CIA and Pentagon need to quit supporting al Qeada and the 'pro-democracy Iranian students', etc. |
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17 Jun 03 - 01:42 PM (#967781) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST The guest of 12:14 gives us these so-called Zionist truth links. In actual fact they're from a discredited Palestinian propaganda site. I wouldn't believe their version of the truth. |
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17 Jun 03 - 01:44 PM (#967782) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST No, guest of 1:38, the American governmnet was not responsible for September 11th. We all know that it was Israel and that all the Jews were evacuated from the WTC before the planes hit. |
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17 Jun 03 - 02:11 PM (#967800) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Gareth Hmmm ! Ah well, conspiracy theories rule again if guest 17 june 03 01.38 is correct. But hang on, isn't he stereotyping, and denigrating Moslems by suggesting that they were incabable of organising the 11th of September ??? Gareth |
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17 Jun 03 - 04:18 PM (#967884) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST Sept 11 kicked off WW3. This war is being waged by the IMF/World Bank against 'rogue nations' who won't subscribe to World Bank-U.N. policies (mostly Moslem nations who have laws against usury). Two nations have already been invaded by the U.S. and turned over to the U.N. Iran is now being prepared, as is North Korea. These are the major rogue nations. They have assets. Oil and Opium. Bush's announced 'perpetual war' against 62 rogue nations began on Sept 11, with an 'event like Pearl Harbor' to galvanize the American people and get us behind the mis-use of our military for internationalist purposes. This plan was outlined in the Bush Company's Project for a New American Century report. And Sept 11 was just the first step...the other shoe will probably drop when North Korea attacks. Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld announced a new policy of 'pre-emptive war'. The U.S. can attack anyone who threatens national interest. The natural outgrowth of that policy is that all other nations in the world can now assume the same right to pre-emptively attack. And North Korea's paranoid leader has said he would attack S. Korea if the U.S. even did something as mild as impose new sanctions. So then Rumsfeld released a 'secret' hundred page 'sneak attack' plan...where the Pentagon outlined a plan to attack the country. And N. Korea may have 100-300 nuclear missles. The international tyrannists WANT North Korea to nuke the U.S. The resulting surrender of constitutional rights will lead to our enslavement. Terrorism WORKS. That's why the U.S. and Israel have used it for so long. Problem is, they're not using it in the interests of those they swore to serve. Sharon and Bush have no nationality...they serve the World Bank. |
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18 Jun 03 - 01:42 AM (#968155) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Little Hawk You need to stop examining the World around you so meticulously, Teribus, and examine yourself for a change. Look within, I mean. If you did, you would be able to express your truth in a mere fifty or so words instead of 5,000 and you would no longer so glibly support violent solutions to the World's problems. That's my opinion. Beats me where you find time to even wash or eat these days, what with all these political wrangles, and your lengthy dissertations on "the facts"... :-) - LH |
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18 Jun 03 - 04:39 AM (#968200) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Teribus True, Little Hawk, very true - I could just sit and read the opinions, and contentions, of others, no matter how outrageous, inaccurate and false they may be and respond purely by reference to the person/time/date of the post and writing one word - Bullshit. I prefer, however, to draw attention to where the inaccuracies and falsehoods appear in the contention and back that up with the appropriate facts. Following that course, I believe, promotes informative debate. By the way I still await your answer to the question I asked you regarding how you go about resolving your problems with your neighbours having totally forsaken your right of self-defence, while yours neighbours continue to attack your civilian population indiscriminately, and who openly admit that their sole aim is your complete and utter destruction. |
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18 Jun 03 - 11:35 AM (#968454) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Little Hawk Ah. Okay, I'll attempt to answer that. Gimme a minute here. Hmmmm.... Okay. I have never forsaken my right of self-defence, and I do not anticipate doing so. Try robbing my house and find out about that. If I were running a country and found my neighbours attacking my civilian population indiscriminately (?) what would I do? Well, the first thing I would do (just as an immediate emergency response) would be to use my police and military to respond to such attacks (on my own soil or at the border areas) in an appropriate fashion. You and I might have different ideas on what's appropriate, I suppose...or maybe not...who knows? I would also try to detect and prevent those attacks before they occur. The next thing I would do is try and find out why my neighbours are launching those attacks...and I mean REALLY try. Then I would try to talk to them about it, and see if something could be done besides killing each other...reach an agreement over the issues, in other words. You suggest the idea of neighbours who "openly admit that their sole aim is your complete and utter destruction." That's a fairly unusual situation. Most people have many aims in life, not a "sole" aim. Which neighbours do you mean? All of them or some of them? Does it mean every man, woman, and child among said neighbours or does it mean just certain individuals among them? I suspect it means the latter. How does one respond intelligently and effectively to that? One good way to respond, I figure, is to defend on your own ground rather than making indiscriminate attacks on other people's ground, but that depends on the exact military factors involved and all that. It's a tremendously complicated matter, Teribus, and it cannot be simply answered. In fact, to answer it adequately would require a vast amount of time and references to the specific circumstances which concern you in having posed the silly damn question...and I might have to sit here for 3 hours writing...or 6 hours. I'm not going to do that. :-) I'd rather do something that's beneficial to my life. - LH |
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19 Jun 03 - 04:13 AM (#968854) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Teribus Thanks for the reply Little Hawk, "If I were running a country and found my neighbours attacking my civilian population indiscriminately (?) what would I do? Well, the first thing I would do (just as an immediate emergency response) would be to use my police and military to respond to such attacks (on my own soil or at the border areas) in an appropriate fashion." Israel is doing that. In addition, because they are not faced with a conventional enemy but by various terrorist groups, aided and abetted by sympathetic regimes, they find themselves having to adopt the policy of prevention by attacking those groups on their own ground. It is better to have the terrorist groups at least thinking about their own safety and security as this disrupts their planning and operations. Putting your enemy on the defensive is by far preferable to you merely sitting back within your own borders and waiting for the attacks to come - the attacks you suffer become greater in number and magnitude. "I would also try to detect and prevent those attacks before they occur." Israel is doing precisely that. "The next thing I would do is try and find out why my neighbours are launching those attacks...and I mean REALLY try. Then I would try to talk to them about it, and see if something could be done besides killing each other...reach an agreement over the issues, in other words." Talks have been taking place, agreements have been reached. But unfortunately they have been between the elected representatives of each side of this conflict, and from the Palestinian side they are not the combatants. Any agreement reached bewteen the Palestinian Authority and Israel is rejected out of hand by Hamas, Al-Fatah and Islamic Jihad - they are the ones attacking Israel. "You suggest the idea of neighbours who "openly admit that their sole aim is your complete and utter destruction." That's a fairly unusual situation. Most people have many aims in life, not a "sole" aim." The destruction and eventual elimination of the State of Israel is a clearly stated Hamas objective and is very well documented. While most people (i.e. individuals) have many aims in life, terrorist organisations tend to have one objective/aim/goal call it what you will - so the situation is not unusual at all. "Which neighbours do you mean?...does it mean just certain individuals among them?..... How does one respond intelligently and effectively to that? One good way to respond, I figure, is to defend on your own ground rather than making indiscriminate attacks on other people's ground, but that depends on the exact military factors involved and all that." The course of action you suggest above would be neither intelligent or effective - it surrenders the initiative, completely, to your enemy. I believe the military factors pertaining to the situation under discussion are fairly well understood. "It's a tremendously complicated matter, Teribus, and it cannot be simply answered." Couldn't agree more with you Little Hawk - but so far the realisation of that has not prevented you or Bobert proferring extremely unrealistic and simplistic solutions. "In fact, to answer it adequately would require a vast amount of time and references to the specific circumstances which concern you in having posed the silly damn question...and I might have to sit here for 3 hours writing...or 6 hours. I'm not going to do that. :-) I'd rather do something that's beneficial to my life." The "silly damn question" as you put it was posed in response to an even sillier damn suggestion: "the only way to stop it is to first stop doing it yourself and then seek a better way of resolving problems with your neighbours." |
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19 Jun 03 - 07:37 AM (#968938) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST,Whats New From the contents of this thread you all spend so much time raking over old arguments like who did what to whom that you give no thought to any constuctve way to unite two sets of people whose militants woud cause a fight alone in an empty house. |
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19 Jun 03 - 08:37 AM (#968974) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Teribus Guest What's New, I don't think anyone involved is giving any thought whatsoever to uniting two sets of people, in fact quite the opposite. What a great deal of thought is going into is a means by which two sets of people can be physically and politically seperated in such a way that they can agree to peacefully co-exist - and that is one whale of a difference. To achieve this some extremely painful and possibly terminal political realities have to be faced on both sides. 1. The violence must stop, with total and verifiable disarmament of the terrorist groups. 2. Clear statement by the Israeli parliament that the State of Israel is formed by the boundaries that existed immediately prior to the start of the "Six-Day" War of 1967. 3. Acceptance by the Palestinians that the State of Palestine shall comprise of the West Bank and Gazza strip. 4. Abandonment on the part of the Palestinians of the "right-of-return" issue. 5. A binding agreement, enforced by the UN if necessary, covering the region with regard to water supplies and resources. 6. Creation of Jerusalem as an independent international city of historic and religious importance. |
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19 Jun 03 - 01:48 PM (#969198) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Forum Lurker Teribus-I'm afraid that #2 and #6 are not going to happen. Jerusalem has been the focus of Jewish identity for millenia, and I believe that an overwhelming majority of Israelis would prefer continuing war to the loss of Jerusalem. The rest are quite feasible, and I think that, in time, the Palestinians would accept the rest of the occupied territories. Most immediately, the removal of all illegal settlements would show the Palestinians that Israel was willing to make concessions (and reduce Israel's security costs considerably). |
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19 Jun 03 - 01:52 PM (#969204) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Little Hawk Teribus, you are a pleasure to know. You never fail to rise to the challenge (or the bait?), and you are tremendously consistent. You remind me very much of the way I used to be not very long ago...except that you are instinctively placed on the other side of the grand political divide, that's all... I imagine if we sat down and talked for 10 or 12 hours about Israel and the Palestinians we would find there's a lot we agree about, but we'd still be on opposite sides of that same divide. Interesting, isn't it? I don't feel powerfully compelled to win verbal arguments with other people at this point, because winning doesn't prove anything (in my opinion). People can win and still be wrong...or half-right...or three quarters right...or whatever. I've seen that happen many times. But talking can still be quite interesting. Regardless of whether one of us "wins" or not in one of these political debates the World will still keep doing what it was going to do anyway. It's an ego struggle if you have to "win". Nothing more. It doesn't amount to a hill of beans. That's why I have a certain equanimity about the whole thing. Go ahead and "win" (in someone's view) any old time you like...it doesn't cause me to lose any sleep nor do I feel any threat to my ego on account of it. I bet we both believe firmly in truth, justice, objectivity, fairness, liberty, and all those other great ideals. I'm sure of it. - LH |
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19 Jun 03 - 06:42 PM (#969346) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST What Americans need to Know -- but probably won't be told -- to Understand Palestinian Rage By Eduardo Cohen EXCERPT: As the Persian Gulf War was raging I had what I felt to be the particular honor, as an American Jew, of being sponsored by the San Francisco Bay Area Chapter of the Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee on a fact finding mission to investigate Israeli human rights abuses carried out against Palestinians under emergency measures declared during the war. I had been reporting on US policy in the Middle East for more than ten years on KPFA and other California radio stations and I had been documenting and lecturing on anti-Arab racism in American popular culture and the news media... ...Not only have American reporters left out crucial information necessary to a comprehensive understanding of the conflict and the peace process, but for far to long they have demonstrated a mindlessly uncritical acceptance of even the most absurd Israeli arguments against making peace. Foremost of these is the oft used Israeli argument that Palestinian authorities must guarantee an end to terrorist attacks as a prerequisite to any Israeli agreements. It has always been a laughable argument, except to American journalists. If the United States government could not prevent the bombings at Oklahoma City and the World Trade Towers and the Israeli government could not prevent the assassination of its own prime minister, how can Yaser Arafat possibly guarantee the end of terrorist acts by Palestinian elements outside of his control?... ...I sensed some of the frustration and anger that Palestinians feel when I spoke with a typical Palestinian farmer in the West Bank whose well of precious water, which he needed to irrigate his crops, had been confiscated by Israeli authorities so a nearby Jewish settlement could fill its swimming pools and water its green lawns. I sensed some of what Palestinians felt when I interviewed more than a half dozen Palestinians whose homes had been dynamited or bulldozed by Israeli tractors because a teenage member of the family had tossed a rock at an Israeli troop carrier or because they tried to build an extra room without the building permit they knew Israeli officials would never provide. It is almost ten years later and, again, the influx of settlers, the expansion of Jewish settlements, the building of Jewish roads, the demolition of Palestinian homes and the confiscation of Palestinian water all continue... ...Clearly there are virulently racist elements within the greater Palestinian community... but I found a real difference between Israeli racism against Arabs, based on a feeling of racial superiority, and Palestinian hatred of Jews which is an understandable Palestinian response to the policies of the Jewish government of Israel and a continuing Jewish occupation. It is comparable to the difference between the hatred of Black Americans by Southern white racists during the Civil Rights Movement in the United States and the hatred many Black Americans felt towards whites as the result of the racist oppression they experienced. It is an important difference... |
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19 Jun 03 - 06:50 PM (#969352) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Frankham Teribus, I agree to some degree with your assessment. The problem is that the Sharon Adminstration has little moral authority as long as it continues its incarceration of "Refusniks". This is not democracy. We part on this statement, however. "The credibility of the United Nations will be restored the instant the UN demonstrates that when confronted by a rapidly deteriorating situation that it can act with purpose and resolve." This can never happen as long as the Bush Adminstration continues its anti-UN policy and resorts to uninlateral pre-emption above the wishes of the UN community. In this, the Bush administration has contributed heartilly to a "rapidly deteriorating situation". Quick and simplistic decisions are not the best surgery. Frank Hamilton |
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19 Jun 03 - 06:57 PM (#969358) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Bobert Night after night we see the utter superiority of the Isreali amed forces, yet T, in his or her's proposal, makes no mention of diarming anyone but the "terrorists". Hmmmmm? Like who are the terorists, T-Bird? If you're a 6 year old kid playin' in the street and get yer head blown off, who is the trerrorist here. See, you still expect "preconditions" from Palestine but offer no tit-fir-tat. That's precisely why, inspite of many points that we agree on in your proposal, that your solution is doomed from the start. How about a simultaneous agreement where by Palestine agrees to Isreal's right to exist in exchange for Palestine getting back the land that the settlers have taken since the '67 war and the end of the occupation. Now that would be a real start... And a real start is what is needed for the other provisions of you proposal to fall into place. Bobert |
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19 Jun 03 - 07:02 PM (#969363) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Gareth "Quick and simplistic decisions are not the best surgery" Frank, I agree, but sometimes they are the only decisions possible, given he circumstances of the time. There is some good will and desire for peace there in the middle east, for Gods sake give them a chance. I might have faith in the UN if it was capable of any objective decision, and coherent action. This failure was evident before the rigged election that put Bush in power. Gareth |
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19 Jun 03 - 07:12 PM (#969370) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST The Real Aim by Uri Avnery EXCERPT The real aim of "Operation Defensive Shield" was not to "destroy the infrastructure of terrorism". This was merely a good slogan for uniting the people of Israel, who are angry and afraid after the suicide bombings. It is also a good political device, allowing Sharon to ride on the bandwagon of President Busch's "war against international terrorism". Under the umbrella of "destroying the infrastructure of terrorism" one can do practically anything. If Sharon had really intended to "destroy the infrastructure of terrorism", he would have acted very differently. He would have given the Palestinian masses hope of achieving their national freedom in the near future. He would have fortified the position of Yasser Arafat, the only effective partner for peace. He would have strengthened the Palestinian security forces and radically improved economic conditions in the Palestinian territories. But destroying the infrastructure of terrorism is not Ariel Sharon's aim. His program is far more radical: to break the backbone of the Palestinian people, crush their governmental institutions, turn the people into human wreckage that can be dealt with as he wishes. This may entail shutting them up in several enclaves or even driving them out of the country altogether. As Sharon sees it, this would be finishing off the job started in 1948: to establish the real Israel, from the Mediterranean to the Jordan river; a state inhabited solely by Jews. It was no accident that he openly supported Slobodan Milosevic, the inventor of "ethnic cleansing"... ...When I wrote this a year ago, it sounded like malicious slander. Sharon was still pictured as a man determined to fight terrorism, not as a person using the fight against terrorism as a means to achieve quite different aims. No more. Four days ago I was in Ramallah. I sneaked into the town (Israelis are forbidden by the military commander from entering the Palestinian territories) in order to see it for myself. I visited the Palestinian ministries. A shocking sight, indeed. Take, for example, the Palestinian Ministry of Education. It is housed in an imposing building, probably going back to British times, a mixture of neo-Classic European and oriental styles. In front of it there was a rose garden - "was", because a tank has crisscrossed it, for no apparent reason, leaving only one purple rosebush in all its glory. Just so. To teach them a lesson... |
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19 Jun 03 - 07:57 PM (#969399) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST BEN-GURION'S SCANDALS by Naeim Giladi Description: States Iraqi-born Jewish journalist, Naeim Giladi: "I write this book to tell the American people, and especially the American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors. I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called 'cruel Zionism.' I write about it because I was a part of it." Giladi delivers the painful truth about the Zionist rape of Palestine and deliberate planting of anti-Semitism in Iraqi Jewish communities during David Ben-Gurion's political career in order to persuade the Iraqi Jews to immigrate to Israel. The goal of the Zionists was to import raw Jewish labor from the Middle East to plow and plant the newly-vacated lands. Also, the military ranks had to be filled with conscripts to defend the stolen lands. |
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19 Jun 03 - 10:17 PM (#969434) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Little Hawk Wise people seek win-win situations that benefit all parties. Foolish people seek win-lose situations that benefit one party at the expense of another or several others. The Israeli government and Hamas alike have not indicated much wisdom thus far...because they are both operating from a position of self-righteousness and a belief in their own moral superiority, and because they literally don't give a damn about the "other guy". That's win-lose philosophy, and it will only lead to more bloodshed, anger, and despair, mostly for the noncombatants on both sides. Both sides have committed terrorism from the outset of the conflict. Both sides feel justified in continuing to do so. To fight terrorism with counter-terrorism and claim it as a legitimate response is hypocritical, but it is also typical of people at war with one another. War is the least intelligent solution to any problem...same as a fistfight. As for "self-defence", I've seldom heard of a war in modern times where both sides did not loudly claim that that was exactly what they were doing! Ha. Ha. Propaganda, that's all. Operation Iraqi Freedom, for example, had nothing to do with self-defence whatsoever, nor anything to do with freedom, but you just call it what you think will sound good on the evening news. Propagandists and win-lose believers start wars...and ordinary people pay for them. - LH |
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19 Jun 03 - 10:56 PM (#969447) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST Neighborhood Bully by Bob Dylan Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man, His enemies say he's on their land. They got him outnumbered about a million to one, He got no place to escape to, no place to run. He's the neighborhood bully. The neighborhood bully just lives to survive, He's criticized and condemned for being alive. He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin, He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in. He's the neighborhood bully. The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land, He's wandered the earth an exiled man. Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn, He's always on trial for just being born. He's the neighborhood bully. Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized, Old women condemned him, said he should apologize. Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad. The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad. He's the neighborhood bully. Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him, 'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac. He's the neighborhood bully. He got no allies to really speak of. What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love. He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side. He's the neighborhood bully. Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace, They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease. Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep. They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep. He's the neighborhood bully. Every empire that's enslaved him is gone, Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon. He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand, In bed with nobody, under no one's command. He's the neighborhood bully. Now his holiest books have been trampled upon, No contract he signed was worth what it was written on. He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth, Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health. He's the neighborhood bully. What's anybody indebted to him for? Nothin', they say. He just likes to cause war. Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed, They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed. He's the neighborhood bully. What has he done to wear so many scars? Does he change the course of rivers? Does he pollute the moon and stars? Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill, Running out the clock, time standing still, Neighborhood bully. |
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20 Jun 03 - 12:25 AM (#969485) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST,Native I have never heard such garbage coming from the oppressors. Boberts is the only one that make sense............................ |
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20 Jun 03 - 07:07 AM (#969598) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Teribus Forum Lurker, In the real world, unfortunately, I tend to agree with your reading on points 2 and 6 - hence my referring to the "painful and possibly terminal political realities". Bobert, Apart from the first one, the six points I set down in my post were set out in no particular order. I do believe that to get the show on the road the violence must stop. Israel has repeatedly stated their willingness to stop provided attacks on Israeli civilians stops - the balls in whose court Bobert? As for: "..you still expect "preconditions" from Palestine but offer no tit-fir-tat. That's precisely why, inspite of many points that we agree on in your proposal, that your solution is doomed from the start. How about a simultaneous agreement where by Palestine agrees to Isreal's right to exist in exchange for Palestine getting back the land that the settlers have taken since the '67 war and the end of the occupation. Now that would be a real start... And a real start is what is needed for the other provisions of you proposal to fall into place." Now I'll take it really slow for you Bobert but don't the following points "2. Clear statement by the Israeli parliament that the State of Israel is formed by the boundaries that existed immediately prior to the start of the "Six-Day" War of 1967. 3. Acceptance by the Palestinians that the State of Palestine shall comprise of the West Bank and Gazza strip." Amount to exactly the same thing as: "How about a simultaneous agreement where by Palestine agrees to Isreal's right to exist in exchange for Palestine getting back the land that the settlers have taken since the '67 war and the end of the occupation." By the way Bobert the elected representatives who constitute the Palestine Authority have accepted Israel's right to exist as a sovereign state - unfortunately the unelected likes of Hamas, Hezbollah (sp?), Islamic Jihad, etc., don't and show no intention of ever doing so. |
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20 Jun 03 - 08:46 AM (#969633) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Frankham Gareth, However imperfect the UN is, it's the only chance we have for peace in the Middle East. Bush has completely botched it by compromising our position with the UN in his pre-emptive debacle. What the Us needs now is real leadership with someone who understands what the UN stands for and is willing to work whole-heartedly with that body. The simplistic solutions being offered by "loose cannons" such as Rumsfeld (at which even seasoned military men are rolling their eyes) is exacerbating the problem rather than solving it. There have been some initiatives taken at the UN which if considered would have had an impact. One of those, I believe, still, is Weapons inspections by a conscientious team. We did have that in in time would have weakened Hussein. Now, with the Administrations pre-emptive actions, we have actually give Hussein a martyr's status in many parts of the Arab world. The view of the world is something like this: what's the difference between an American agressor and a dicatatorial regime like Hussein's? Why haven't the Sunni Baath Party given up? This all impacts on the US involvement in the Middle East. As long as we have unfinished business in Afghanistan and Iraq, why should Palestinians or even pragmatic Israelis look to us for mitigation? We need a president who has the foresight to understand the cultural implications involved in the religious factions in Iraq and Iran and the true needs of both Israelis and Palestinians which are presently being ignored. Frank Hamilton |
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20 Jun 03 - 09:40 AM (#969679) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Little Hawk "Neighborhood Bully" is about the only song Bob Dylan ever wrote that I largely disagree with. :-) What the heck, Bob's a Jew. I can understand how he might see it. If he was an Arab, he'd no doubt have written it the other way around. Life is a stage play, and everyone gets to play the part that they can best relate to. If they can understand their opponents' parts, then they are approaching mastery. Like I said...try for a win-win solution for a change. - LH |
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20 Jun 03 - 01:57 PM (#969809) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Frankham There is something inherently wrong with the premise of this thread. Surely not all Palestinians aim to destroy the peace process. It's in their best interest not to. Some may see it that way. Frank Hamilton |
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20 Jun 03 - 02:38 PM (#969834) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Little Hawk Hey, good point, Frank. I suspect that the person who started the thread was simply hoping to stir up some controversy. They succeeded. - LH |
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20 Jun 03 - 07:20 PM (#969956) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: GUEST Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him A bully only picks on the weak ones you see But will he live by the rules that he makes for you and me? He's the neighborhood bully. |
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21 Jun 03 - 12:50 AM (#970061) Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces From: Little Hawk Ditto for Hitler, Idi Amin, and Al Capone...all of whom gave not a tinker's damn for the rules the World made for them. Neighborhood bullies. "Rules? We don't need no steenkin' rules!" They made up their own rules. So does Israel. So does America. So does Al Queda. So did Hitler. Lawlessness, justified by expediency, justified by political resolve, justified by the certainty of moral superiority. Courage is an admirable thing, and it can be found in the hearts of both heroes and villains (depending on your perspective). It's up to each one of us to decide which is which. Maybe in some cases they are actually one and the same. I know this...every hard fighter is a hero in his own eyes, and in the eyes of those who back him...for reasons best known to themselves. He is a villain in the eyes of those whom he attacks. - LH |