|
22 Jun 03 - 05:19 PM (#970554) Subject: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv??? From: GUEST Now and again some lyrics will really take be by surprise by their boldness. In Tom Paxton's great song " Jimmy Newman " , a wounded soldier is recovering in a "Mash" type hospital. He may be half dead but the soldier can still notice the attractive nurses and observing one particular nurse he says, " her uniform's tight on her marvellous rear". When I first heard those lyrics, I was taken aback. It was as if the rules for writing lyrics had been expanded - new realities could be explored.
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
|
22 Jun 03 - 05:26 PM (#970555) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Joe Offer I thought I'd add a bit to the thread title... It's certainly a memorable line - except that you didn't remember it quite right. In the Digital Tradition, you will find that the woman's derierre is described as "marvelous." I'd say Paxton was realistic, not perverse. Would you expect most young GI's to speak more politely about a pretty nurse? -Joe Offer- |
|
22 Jun 03 - 05:43 PM (#970563) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Noreen A man noticing a woman's attractive rear makes him a sex pervert? Golly... what passes for normality in your neck of the woods then, GUEST? |
|
22 Jun 03 - 05:45 PM (#970567) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Amergin animal rears....mainly sheep and goats... |
|
22 Jun 03 - 05:56 PM (#970573) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Art Thieme The guy/soldier was wounded. Not dead ! Lenny Bruce, in analizing the difference between men and womean when it comes to "love and sex" said, "With women it's more intelectual---touchy feely--dinner and a movie first. With guys it's like the guy goes through brain surgery and in the recovery room makes a play for the nurse." But times have changed----and if one, as Lenny also said, "Gets hot"--and acts on it by being a bit overt---like asking her for a date, that is sexual harrassment and warrents a trip to a lawyer. Art Thieme |
|
22 Jun 03 - 06:11 PM (#970578) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: katlaughing I think you should have done more to the title than that, Joe! Esp. since it was done anonymously. What a load of rubbish! How about changing it to "Paxton's marvelous rear?" |
|
22 Jun 03 - 06:43 PM (#970594) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: DonMeixner jeepers. I think there is a seat in the real world with your name on it Guest. If you have a name, find the seat and take you place. Don |
|
22 Jun 03 - 06:52 PM (#970600) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Ron Olesko People - can't you see that this guest was just a troll who knew we were going to get riled up? This is exactly the type of response this cretin is sitting back and enjoying. It is best to just let this one drop. |
|
22 Jun 03 - 07:04 PM (#970607) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Rapparee Men in combat notice things like that. Even when wounded. It's a way to celebrate life. It wasn't called "I&I" for nothing! |
|
22 Jun 03 - 07:07 PM (#970609) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: DonMeixner I&I ? R&R I thought. Don |
|
22 Jun 03 - 07:13 PM (#970614) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Bill D In my home town, years ago, there was an oldish codger who was hit by a car while crossing the street...he refused to press charges against the driver, as he admitted he was watching a pretty girl and not paying attention to the traffic. Pretty girls have been subjects for song, art..and various other exercises for most of recorded history....Tom Paxton should be different? *grin* |
|
22 Jun 03 - 07:21 PM (#970617) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Raggytash Noreen, Thanks for your imput, this Guest needs to seriously get a life |
|
22 Jun 03 - 07:45 PM (#970622) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Rapparee I&I = Intoxication & Intercourse. |
|
22 Jun 03 - 07:50 PM (#970626) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Peter T. And what of that necrophiliac Pete Seeger? ("Soldiers gone to graveyards every one"). Leonard Cohen hitting on schizophrenic women ("And you know that she's half crazy, and that's why you want to be there). The Beatles' foot fetish ("Father Mackenzie, darning his socks in the night when there's nobody there", not to mention "Old Brown Shoe").I mean, open your eyes, people! yours, Peter T. |
|
22 Jun 03 - 07:52 PM (#970627) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: CET Has nobody figured out that Guest is not a prude, nor does he think Tom Paxton is a pervert? He's simply poking fun at a certain type of folkie who really is a prude. There aren't too many like that on Mudcat, but think of the editors of Rise Up Singing, who bowdlerized the Gordon Lightfoot line "Well, the liquor tasted good, and the women all were fast" to read "Well, the liquor tasted good and the days went by so fast (or something like that)." (Early Morning Rain) Who could really be taken aback by the frankness of "marvellous rear?" The post was just satire, boys and girls. There's nothing wrong with it. Edmund |
|
22 Jun 03 - 07:53 PM (#970629) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Alba Is it just me or is the title of this thread in very poor taste? I don't know about you being a prude Guest but you sure come across as having no respect for Tom Paxton. A |
|
22 Jun 03 - 08:11 PM (#970633) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: katlaughing That's what I meant, Alba. I agree, it is in poor taste, but that's never stopped the Mudcat before... |
|
22 Jun 03 - 08:23 PM (#970641) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: GUEST,Tunesmith I'm the guy who started this thread. I thought I had signed in as Tunesmith. Anyway, the thread title was suppose to be witty or tongue-in cheek, and I'm sorry I used it now as it seems to have deflected attention away from the thrust of my posting i.e. that Tom Paxton's inclusion of the " marvellous rear" reference added a sense of reality to the song that a lesser writer would have never have included - or even thought of. On a personal level, at the time( 30 odd years ago ) I was taken aback by the frankness of the line. And as I said previously it seemed to open doors in my mind as to what could be included in a song. |
|
22 Jun 03 - 08:33 PM (#970644) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Holy Bat Guano! TUNESMITH!!!
(Hell yah, I like woman's rears!..Nothing looks like a dame, nothing acts like a dame, nothing thinks like a dame, nothing cooks like a dame....Hammerstein and Rogers had nothing queer....because they wrote lyrics about women's dereire's....you ARE weird! |
|
22 Jun 03 - 08:40 PM (#970647) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Now listen very carefully!!! I first heard the line I quoted by Tom Paxton 30+ years ago, OK. And back then that line was radical!! - believe me. |
|
22 Jun 03 - 09:12 PM (#970661) Subject: Tom Paxton is not a sex pervert - Official !!! From: GUEST,Tunesmith It looks as if this thread is winding down - inspite of that fact that nobody really picked up and ran with the main thrust of my original posting. Anyway, I would like to take this opportunity to make it clear that I don't think that Tom Paxton is a sex pervert. OK. He might take a quick glance at a shapely butt now and again but heck that's normal... p.s. lighten up!!! |
|
22 Jun 03 - 09:21 PM (#970664) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Susanne (skw) Tunesmith, maybe someone ought to inform you that gargoyle is our resident troll :-). Anyway, if you meant in your first posting what you explained in the 8:23 one it was certainly not easy to understand! Posting and thread title don't seem to fit each other, even be contradictory. Maybe when coining the next witty thread title you ought to remember that this kind of thing can give rise to damaging rumours that you never intended. Certainly my first thought when reading it was: "What has he been caught at?" and I was very relieved to find all he'd been caught at was writing great songs as usual! |
|
22 Jun 03 - 09:34 PM (#970667) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Sorcha Oh good grief (again) |
|
22 Jun 03 - 09:36 PM (#970669) Subject: Tom is innocent !!!!! From: GUEST,Tunesmith It shouldn't have been difficult for anyone with an interest in words to figure out my original posting. Do yourselves a favour and read it again - properly, remembering that a) I refer to Jimmy Newman as a great song, and my final sentence is clearly saying that the inclusion of that " marvellous rear" line was a breakthrough in the use of lyrics. Let's face it, I don't think Pete Seeger (great as he is could have come up with that line! ) And , finally( maybe ), I would like to call to my defence one Tom Paxton. It was he who said that one must remember that the writer is creating a song, and the contents of the song may or may not reflect the writers true feelings. It wasn't Tom who was admiring the nurse's rear but a wounded soldier. For all we know Tom might not like butts! |
|
22 Jun 03 - 09:39 PM (#970671) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull gargolye-why,dop,you,write,in,yelloew? its,hard,to,read. |
|
22 Jun 03 - 10:10 PM (#970682) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Bee-dubya-ell John - If you highlight the yellow writing (like you were going to cut and paste it) it will change it into a more readable color, like blue. Bruce |
|
22 Jun 03 - 10:13 PM (#970683) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Amos Chin up, Tunesmith -- you've fallen among the hobgoblins and tanglefoot, that's all. A little more practice and you'll be writing as clearly as anyone here!! (Shudder....) Keep pitchin'! A |
|
22 Jun 03 - 10:34 PM (#970690) Subject: Tom is a great bloke - he once bought me a pint ! From: GUEST,Tunesmith I'm not impressed !! What is it they say about Americans " irony is lost on them!" and, by the sounds of things, lots more besides. Negative, negative, negative !!!! What a bunch of characters in search of some soul. Forget the trivia, concentrate on the essence of the thing!!! |
|
22 Jun 03 - 10:46 PM (#970700) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: DonMeixner Tunesmith, PLease accept my appology for jumping your case. It was unfair of me and rude. In defense, we United Statesians ( I recently learned that Canadians are from North America and thereby deserve to be called Americans too) do appreciate irony. Altho' many of us have our heads so far up each others butts interfering with someone elses life that we miss the irony from time to time. I saw Tom Paxton do Jimmy Newman in 1970 and felt that it was his most powerful song to date . It still brings a lump now as we head towards another war. Now there is some irony for you. Again, I'm sorry, but just the name "Guest" and nothing else raises my ire to a point of not thinking clearly. Don |
|
22 Jun 03 - 10:57 PM (#970712) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: GUEST,Songster Bob Well, how about that line from the sea song about "hating to leave her behind?" Think on that one for a while, eh? Bob |
|
22 Jun 03 - 11:13 PM (#970717) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Bee-dubya-ell Tunesmith - A couple of months ago, when Joe American was all up in arms over the French refusal to knuckle under to Bush & Blair's war machine, I started a thread in which a "petition" suggested that The Statue of Liberty be given back to the French. Somebody thought I was serious and chewed me a new asshole for being a typical American Francophobe. You're right, irony just doesn't work here. I think a lot of it has to do with alcohol-induced tunnel-vision, but there are some who, cold sober, wouldn't know irony if it jumped up and bit 'em on the ass. Bruce |
|
22 Jun 03 - 11:28 PM (#970721) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Sorry, Tunesmith and Mr. Hull,
|
|
22 Jun 03 - 11:31 PM (#970722) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: GUEST,.gargoyle With the censorship and the lack of reliablity....I doubt that Max will continue to front the front much longer.
-Joe Offer- |
|
23 Jun 03 - 04:33 AM (#970791) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: GUEST Thank you Joe. Long overdue...... |
|
23 Jun 03 - 04:49 AM (#970794) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Dave Bryant When I came to, after some fairly major stomach surgery, I was full of tubes and drips and drugs. I can still remember noticing a rather well shaped nurse and thinking that it was definitely worth being back in the land of the living. The only problem is that it can be painful having an errection with a catheta in ! |
|
23 Jun 03 - 05:52 AM (#970808) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: GUEST,KB Tunesmith - its a bummer when people read, fail to catch your drift, then jump all over the place calling you a troll &tc. Your original point is an interesting one - and those kind of lyrics can really lift a song. The unexpectedness makes you pay attention, and in that particular instance the line adds a whole lot of character to the people & situation in the song. Its one of those instances where a quick deft sweep of the brush adds a lot to the picture. I was trying to talk about a similar thing the other night - but I was too far down my mum's homemade wine & it was a very late festival night.... - but what I was trying to get at is that some songwriters seem to have the mental freedom to take risks with their writing, and to throw in bits & peices that sometimes don't work all that well - but which are sometimes pure genius. Richard Thompson is a prime example of that type of songwriter. I know what you mean about it opening a door to all manner of possibilities. |
|
23 Jun 03 - 05:54 AM (#970810) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: GUEST,KB, again Lal Waterson is the other writer that springs to mind - And it was her song "Anna Dixie" that brought up the conversation the other night. |
|
23 Jun 03 - 09:45 AM (#970902) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Sam L I don't know that irony doesn't work here, but it's hard to tell--I get and appreciate sly remarks here that I don't necesarily post to acknowledge I appreciated. I've heard many people mention that they get taken in the wrong way, accidentally offend, by e-mail. Tone is tricky to convey when writing conversationally. Anyway, it's an interesting thing to note these breakthrough bits--things that add a little life. There are songs I don't enjoy because they seem essayistic, have no imagery. One of my favorite breakthrough moments in history is a paragraph in Gogol's Dead Souls describing an overgrown garden, and summing up that it was beautiful in the way things are when nature adds the finishing strokes to what people have tried to arrange. It's a fresh and unconventional observation. I also love that in Shakespeare's Antony and Cleopatra they had planned to go out one night and "note the qualities of people"--a perfectly observed, timeless cheap date, fit for kings and queens, and just exactly the sort of thing couples do. People who aren't in love would never think of doing that. I take it that you're talking about that sort of thing, how a true detail lends force and credibility to the whole. |
|
23 Jun 03 - 10:00 AM (#970906) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Tam the Bam (Nutter) I just some people would just get a life, it's just a bloody song. Tom |
|
23 Jun 03 - 11:03 AM (#970952) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: EBarnacle1 As long as we are dissing deconstruction, why not simply note the parallel construction to "The Marvelous Toy" and let it go at that? |
|
23 Jun 03 - 12:32 PM (#971005) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Joe Offer I think that sometimes we're too quick to blame the audience for not understanding irony. I think that most of the time, irony fails in the execution. I can't pull it off, so I usually don't try it. This time, it just didn't work. It sounded like just another stupid troll. -Joe Offer- |
|
23 Jun 03 - 01:25 PM (#971027) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: John Hardly "The Marvelous Toy"? |
|
23 Jun 03 - 01:35 PM (#971034) Subject: Tom - I bet you're having a good laugh at this lot From: GUEST,Tunesmith Forget irony, forget a tongue-in-cheek thread title, forget the use of a controversial quip so draw attention to a - to me a least - fascinating theme, what really disappoints is the fact that so few people tried to expand upon my original idea. I know now why there are so many boringly, unimaginative songwriters out there. They're too busy looking down at the gutter, to notice the beauty of the sky. |
|
23 Jun 03 - 01:49 PM (#971045) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: GUEST,Ron Olesko Give it a rest Tunesmith... you start a thread with a title that doesn't match the content and then you wonder why we are unimaginative? Please, just because you write something and call it "irony" does not mean that it really is. Doesn't it strike you as ironic that none of us "got" your intent? Maybe the problem is self-absorbed songwriters who think their works are more important and interesting than they really are. I'm not directing that comment at you Tunesmith, but I'm really bored of the singer-songwhiners who blame the audience for lack of interest in their work. Maybe that is why they sound "boring" and "unimaginative". Ron |
|
23 Jun 03 - 03:48 PM (#971125) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: DonMeixner The fact that an audience dosen't get the point isn't the fault of the audience, EVER! It's a failure of recognizable communication by the communicator. You just can't round up an entire audience of total idiots in one place, especially if they share a common interest like folk music. One or two will be clueless, a few will be jerks, some will be there to drag out some self serving agenda. By and large the greater audience will be an intelligent crowd. And if most of that mix doesn't get the point, the point wasn't get-able. My only complaint with this forum beyond un-named Guests is it is too easy in a print forum to miss someones point. The end result is often times what we are seeing here now in this thread. Still sorry I jumped your case. DonMeixner |
|
23 Jun 03 - 04:03 PM (#971130) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: GUEST,Lyle Well, Tunesmith, when I first read your post, I thought you were being a master of satire, and I couldn't figure out why other people saw it otherwise. I guess it's a matter of ones experiences - when I was in the service I NEVER heard one of the troops refer to that part of a woman's anatomy as a "marvelous rear." Now if we can change this to an XXX site for 24 hours, I think I can come up with about 7,583 other things they WOULD have called it!!! Lyle |
|
23 Jun 03 - 07:12 PM (#971236) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Sam L Is it really NEVER the fault of an audience that they don't get something? I think sometimes it is their loss. Groups set up in odd ways, and they may have some conventional expectations that cause them to miss a perfectly clear expression of something. I can think of some big examples of this, I think anyone can. It's awkward and unfortunate when things don't come off, but maybe it can be considered apart from whose fault it is. Sometimes it's worth trying anyway. |
|
23 Jun 03 - 08:00 PM (#971254) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: DonMeixner Fred, I have to disagree. All things being equal and assuming the audience, congregation, conference or group is generally of active and average intelligence anything that is said in such a way as to be misunderstood is an insult to the audience. Granted not all such comments are meant to be insulting and are quite accidental. But if that happens all the time and every audience is left going "Huh? Wazzat?" Then who is fool? AND the real message that you want to get across is lost, no matter how good it may be. If we take it upon ourselves to communicate a meaning or a message that requires the group to think a little bit or question their own beliefs then I think we are doing our job as communicators. But to bury it in layers of obscurity is just counter productive and probably has the opposite result from that which was intended. In the case with this thread had I gotten past the name "Guest" I might have read a deeper meaning. My fault for giving no credence to someone who is unwilling to share a name. ( I don't care if it is someones real name or their internet handle, as long as it defines them as an entity. After all some other "Guest" may take a load of undeserved shit only because of the name thing. And that too would be a failure in clear communication.) I stand by my thesis, Communication that can be missunderstood is not communication at all. And I still appologize to Tunesmith. Don |
|
23 Jun 03 - 08:58 PM (#971290) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Willie-O Hey Don, please continue to call yourself an American. Because "United Statesian" sounds unbelievably, um, stupid. Don't know where you heard we in Canada want to be called Americans. We reserve that word to describe citizens of the USA, of whom we see plenty. Like you, we are North Americans, but that's as close as it gets. If we wanted to be Americans, we'd move to the U.S. Our country, like all the other countries on the American continents, does not have the word America in its name. Because "Canada of America" would sound, um, really stupid. However your thoughtfulness is appreciated. Best Willie-O p.s. I bet that nurse had a great ass. |
|
23 Jun 03 - 09:13 PM (#971295) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: DonMeixner Shaped like two halves of a succulent pear perched on top of long tumenescent thighs and tapering to a trim waste. Don |
|
23 Jun 03 - 09:35 PM (#971303) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: DonD Typos and misspellings are amazing! Her ass 'tapered to a trim waste'? Sadly for that hospitalized GI, that's all it was -- a waste. |
|
23 Jun 03 - 09:36 PM (#971304) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: mg thank you willie-o. They don't want to be called Americans, they just want to prevent us from calling ourselves what we have always called ourselves. I am quite willing to share the word with anyone who lives on an American continent, South, North, (middle??) and has a desire to call themselves that (although they might prefer Venezualan, Brazilian etc. Greenlandian??? but I am unwilling to be told I can not use it myself. mg |
|
23 Jun 03 - 09:44 PM (#971308) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: DonMeixner I hoped someone would enjoy that. |
|
23 Jun 03 - 09:51 PM (#971311) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: DonMeixner Don, did you catch the earlier one? No one else has I don't believe. "There is a seat in the real world with your name on it." Altho' the connection to "Marvelous Rear" may be tenuous, it was there. or did Paxton mean Marvelous Toy? (Trim waiste or waste of trim? Vulgarity abounds!) Don, the other one. |
|
23 Jun 03 - 10:43 PM (#971320) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Ely I saw him at Anderson Fair years ago and he had a song about Lorena Bobbitt. As sick as we all are of hearing about Lorena Bobbitt, the song was hilarious. You can't write a song about her and keep it clean, but it wasn't perverted. |
|
23 Jun 03 - 11:17 PM (#971336) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: katlaughing "trim waste" brought to mind Twiggy and then...Karen Carpenter |
|
24 Jun 03 - 02:43 AM (#971389) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Ebbie Just what's so great about irony? I recognize that I tend toward the literal but it is my contention that if people were more direct and open in their communication, there would be fewer hurt feelings and enmities. And what's so bad about that? |
|
27 Jun 03 - 10:19 AM (#973293) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Sam L Don, I missed your response somehow. I admire the scrupulous responsibility of the communicator, but I have trouble matching your description to what I know about the experiences of great communicators. Most can be, were, and still often are misunderstood. Everything can probably be misunderstood. I think of many great and highly moral books have been taken to be pornographic. I think of the painter De Kooning, who I consider great, and his comment that nobody noticed his women paintings were funny. Nobody had expected high art in the abstract expressionist vein to be funny. I believe that audiences form tenuous connective mindsets, rote expectations, which frequently misapprehend all sorts of things to an almost uncanny degree. When you go back and try to see how some of these things happened, it's hard to see what the problem was. If one can't risk being misunderstood I think one may risk falling into saying only those things that are ready-made to be expressed, a manner of illustration of those given meanings and intentions. It can be a kind of hidden censorship, at worst. It's not for me. I heard an opera singer yesterday telling how the sorts of things she routinely performed for German audiences got quite a different response from opera traditionalists in the U.S. One e-mail described her as a mole, a double-agent, on a mission to undermine western civilisation. All she could do was laugh (perhaps maniacally, while stroking a cat) and her company now calls her The Mole. |
|
27 Jun 03 - 11:50 AM (#973336) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Tam the Bam (Nutter) I just wish people would just leave songs alone instead of Politcally correcting it and everything else, or in years to come, we won't be able to open our mouths in case we upset anyone. As I said before it's just a song. Tom |
|
27 Jun 03 - 01:18 PM (#973371) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Re: The idea that if an audience don't get "the point" of something, it's got to be the fault of the person making the point. Well, this is a complex question; for example, my experience of hearing a particular piece of music could be a totally different experience than the person sitting next to me. Take Flamenco music. I have studied flamenco music for a number of years, and when I hear a flamenco piece I can know understand and enjoy it on a level that an uninitiated listener could not. It's like the wise crack " there are only two Irish folk tunes, a fast one and a slow one". Who would agree with that sentiment? I was going on to make another point here but...I'll use that as a new thread. |
|
27 Jun 03 - 07:20 PM (#973583) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Sam L Well, I agree that it's a complex question, Tunesmith, and I think your example of Flamenco music goes to the point. Sometimes people don't understand things because they aren't familiar with it, and they misunderstand it in terms of what they are already accustomed to hearing. I'll watch for the new thread, seems like a good idea.. |
|
27 Jun 03 - 08:39 PM (#973627) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Little Hawk Yowsa! A most amusing thread, Tunesmith, and to think I ignored it till now, not being particularly interested in Tom Paxton's sexual proclivities... :-) You seem to have a gift for stirring up a certain amount of controversy on the ol' Mudcat. As far as irony goes, Canadians love it, so let's have more, I say! You want perversion? Try out these Dylan lyrics... "they asked for some collateral and I pulled down my pants" "she takes just like a woman, yeah, she makes love just like a woman, and she aches just like a woman, but she breaks just like a little girl" "I saw you makin' love to him...you forgot to close the garage door" "but you will wind up peeking through her keyhole down upon your knees" "the sword swallower walks up to you and then he kneels, he crosses himself and he clicks his high heels, and without further ado asks you how it feels, and says 'here is your throat back, thanks for the loan'" "Dr Filth he keeps his world inside of a leather cup, and all his sexless patients they are trying to blow it up" "And she says 'your debutante just knows what you need, but I know what you want'" Gotta hand it to old Bob! Then there's that Jackson Browne song called "Redneck Friend". It's about his "willie". Then there's Olivia Newton-Joke doing "Physical" and other suggestive tripe like that, and pretending it's about phys ed or something. Then there are those increasingly desperate Mariah Carey album covers in which we get to see a little more of Mariah each time... Man, it's a jungle out there! :-) - LH |
|
27 Jun 03 - 10:23 PM (#973663) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: DonMeixner Hi Fred, My point about communication may not have been well made. I'm not suggesting that communication be unsubtle and needing a bit of effort to understand. I just don't want it mired in impossibility. My son has this fascination for a band called Rammstein, a techno gothic powerhouse from Germany. Musically incredible stuff. Their songs are all sung in German and often screamed to the point of added indecipherability. I suspect in Germany where the language is uderstood the words have meaning. But I speak no German nor does Greg so neither of us have a clue as to what is being said. The only communication that has happened here is "If you wanna know what is being said, learn German." The music is powerful and it creates great rhythmic emotion. Is that the message that is being sent? I don't know but it may be. I'm a word guy. For me there is no message or meaning out side the words. I don't know that I am ready to accept that emotion can be a message . Certainly Beethoven could plunge emotion to great depths and lift it to great heights all in the same piece. So if emotion can be a message then communication has to be on physical level. But pure communication where information is passed from one person to another has to be understandable by both parties. Like a speach impaired person running down a hotel hallway signing "FIRE!" and everyone burns to death but him. Did communication take place? I don't imagine I've made my point any clearer but I sure hope I've opened a real fun debate. Don |
|
28 Jun 03 - 09:49 AM (#973804) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Sam L Don, I think I may have misunderstood your point, but it's an interesting subject. The example of the German band reminds me of a few things. I'm not sure, I haven't kept up, but I think it was the band Tool that did a very sinister-sounding song with german lyrics culminating in a horrible scream--which turned out to be a recipe, and the frightful cry translates as And then you bake it!!! I think a lot of rock really is mainly about energy, and a lot of the lyrics are just props, loosely grabbed up as if there isn't time to find the right words. It may correspond to a feeling, and an unwillingness to explain or pin down that feeling, maybe. An unreflective emotional state. I think when rock gets too sophisticated lyrically or harmonically it tends to not work as rock anymore. But I don't know, it doesn't work for me like it used to. There is a strain in literature and popular music of words that seem intended to merely sparkle with possible meanings, a sort of Gertrude Steiny stuff, or collage-effect, maybe, that carry no particular point. I'm not sure what I think about it, except that it's silly for the songwriter to turn around and say it's Really ABOUT whatever they say they intend, when they never made it clear. They tend not to be my favorite lyrics, but I'm not opposed to the manner. I like listening to Angelique Kidjo, and don't know what the songs are about--I think I know what they ought to be about, and get a few ideas for my own lyrics sometimes, but I might be disappointed if I learned. I suppose I think when you give up coherent verbal sense, it's a loss, but sometimes it's given up for a musical purpose, a psychology, and it may more or less achieve an end. A friend of mine who seems a little struck by celebrity always says it seems to her that anything so many people respond to must have something to it--they can't all be wrong. I always say Yes they can, it can have to it, sure. I just like to be skeptical about audiences, like that. |
|
28 Jun 03 - 01:24 PM (#973868) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Little Hawk Yes... What really intrigues me is what would happen if chinchillas made rock music? I am still hoping to put together a group of them and find out. - LH |
|
28 Jun 03 - 05:03 PM (#973973) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: JohnInKansas It appears that "Guest, Tunesmith" has started about 17 threads in the past week, and approximately 15 in the past three days. In each case - in all of the ones I've looked at - the same maudlin "you don't understand me so you're stupid" argument has ensued. I hope this won't be construed as a personal attack, but there is apparently a problem with our understanding of the intent, and naming, of these threads. Perhaps when we're more familiar with this "Guest," it will be easier to get the point(s). Until we become better acquainted, I would suggest less "cleverness" and more clear and constructive participation. Clones are welcome to delete, if this is too personal; but I don't see a way to offer a point (to a GUEST) otherwise. John |
|
28 Jun 03 - 05:25 PM (#973988) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: GUEST,tunesmith Please don't delete JohnInKansas!!! Have I started so many threads? Now, I've never called anyone stupid! I have, in frustration, told some to use their brains! It's obvious that I'm receiving fall-out from my anti-Jesus postings, and, referring to my old drinking buddy Tom Paxton as a sex pervert, didn't gain me many friends. But surely from the content of my my postings, anybody could not see that that was a tongue -in-cheek comment, and that I am greatly impressed with Tom's lyrics. I was even called a prude! People who know me would find that accusation hilarious! I believe all my postings have something interesting in them. I, in my turn, am amazed at the hostility that has been directed at me. Maybe, I should have paced myself more, but.... why? The purpose of the forum is for people to comment on various aspects of music - and more. That's what I'm doing. |
|
28 Jun 03 - 06:41 PM (#974017) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Sam L Tunesmith, maybe you're right, and you could pace yourself. Start fewer threads, or take a little more trouble setting them up. I was pretty surprised when I found your thread folowing up this one, that so many people thought it was pointless, and were quite pissy about it. But then, maybe if you'd broadened the scope of how you introduced it, it would've seemed more interesting to more people. Paradoxically though I think you probably would get far fewer responses. Funny, but it's a lot easier for people to condescendingly tell you your thread is stupid than it is to contribute good observations of their own. Easier to get huffy about already knowing what you're saying than to say what it is they do know about it. The times I've tried to start threads about stylistic concerns and aesthetics they sank like rocks, and I admit I rather enjoy your perhaps clumsy, semi-trolling manner. At least people respond. The misunderstandings and stuff are sometimes amusing, and it's worth the fuss. G.B. Shaw was sort of a troll, comparing himself favorably as a playwright over Shakespeare, singing his own praises, aggravating people, making his iconoclastic paradoxes and annoying everyone. But as G.B. Shaw once said, in his own defense, when he started writing about Shakespeare, Shakespeare was a chore, poorly performed or attended. When he was done Shakespeare was a happening thing most people talked about. I wish I was more provacative, I guess. I'd like to see letters to the editor about performances and art shows. I hate all the puff-piece, politese, poodle-groomed reviews. The first five years I lived in Louisville I never once saw a visual art review that did not include the word "notions"--it was disgusting. I've enjoyed some of these threads and a lot of the contributions to them have been first-rate fun. |
|
16 Jun 07 - 11:25 PM (#2079014) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Little Hawk Then there's Buffy Sainte-Marie singing "there are 97 men in this here town would give a half a grand in silver just to follow me down...so appreciate a dedicated baby, cos, boy, you are a lucky ma-a-an!" Shocking! Brazen! No wonder the US government had her blacklisted off all the radio stations for about 10 years. They just can't bear immorality. ;-) |
|
16 Jun 07 - 11:25 PM (#2079015) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Mickey191 And Your Point Is?? |
|
16 Jun 07 - 11:38 PM (#2079023) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Joe Offer Shit. I thought I closed this thread... Are you smoking something funny, Little Hawk? love, -Joe Offer- |
|
17 Jun 07 - 04:37 AM (#2079098) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: guitar No he's not guest you are a prude |
|
17 Jun 07 - 05:10 AM (#2079102) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Betsy Iwouldn't have a word said against Tom Paxton without doubt a great wordsmith, an unassuming star of the folk scene, in my view a great part of the Folk revival in England - his songs were the backbone of many a folk evening in the 60's' 70's and 80's (and still are).How any anyone can put Tom Paxton in the same sentence as the word "sex-pervert" is beyond me. Get a life you narrow-minded arsehole. |
|
17 Jun 07 - 06:13 AM (#2079123) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: guitar This is just another PC idiot, that doesn't like offending anyone, well you've offended quite a lot of people here DICKHEAD?ARSEHOLE |
|
17 Jun 07 - 06:53 AM (#2079132) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Midchuck Which one's the dickhead? Which one's the arsehole? Oh, God, I hate it when I don't get given a scorecard.... Peter. |
|
17 Jun 07 - 07:16 AM (#2079151) Subject: RE: Is Tom Paxton a sex perv???/Is Guest a Prude? From: Jeri Little Hawk replied to the subsequently deleted spam that refreshed this 4-year old thread. |