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27 Jun 03 - 03:54 PM (#973446) Subject: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Tunesmith Back in the late 70s and early 80s, in particular, I was actively involved in the Liverpool Folk Music Scene. One of the leading musical lights back then was Shay Black. I never thought of Shay as having a great voice or being an outstanding player but he had the "it" factor: when he sang, people listened. Somewhere along the line he started doing a slow version of "The Holy Ground". No " Fine girl you are" to be heard! I was most impressed, and I've always assumed that it was Shay who came up with the "slow" arrangement. Years later, his sister, Mary Black recorded the "slow" version. Has anybody out there got examples of successful - radical, even - revamps of well know songs? |
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27 Jun 03 - 04:36 PM (#973480) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST How many thousand examples do you want? Do you specialise in starting banal threads? |
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27 Jun 03 - 04:47 PM (#973490) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Tunesmith O dear, Guest. Just to humour me, let's hear one of your examples! |
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27 Jun 03 - 05:02 PM (#973498) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST Joe Cocker's version of 'With A Little Help From My Friends' |
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27 Jun 03 - 05:07 PM (#973505) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Tunesmith Thanks! Nice one! |
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27 Jun 03 - 05:10 PM (#973508) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Martin Gibson Dixe Chicken, the Little Feat song as done by Jack Jones. Now, I'm out of here. |
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27 Jun 03 - 05:19 PM (#973512) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Tunesmith Ah, Jack Jones! I have a certain amount of time for Jack Jones BUT his swinging version of " Homeward Board" is something you must hear -or maybe not! |
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27 Jun 03 - 05:32 PM (#973522) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Martin Gibson I'm back just long enough to say this also rates as a dumb topic. |
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27 Jun 03 - 05:42 PM (#973526) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Tunesmith I don't want to attract anymore hostility BUT let me expand on my original posting. What is a performance ? Somebody singing a song? Right, let's run with that! Somebody gets up and sings a song that they've learnt from a recording or whatever. Now, I would hope that they - if talented - even just a bit, would want to bring something to themselves to that song. Now, if they can bring something very different to that song - and it works -then, that to me, is very interesting, and worthwhile. Take, James Taylor. He has the knack of transforming well-known songs with a different chord here and there, or a change of tempo or feel. This level musical sensitivity is, I'm afraid, a rare commodity. What for you would fit into that category! |
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27 Jun 03 - 05:47 PM (#973529) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Martin Gibson How about something by 101 Strings? Now playing in an elevator near you. |
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27 Jun 03 - 07:33 PM (#973593) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Clinton Hammond Man... alot of people in this thread really gotta get more fiber into their diets... A chum of mine delights is inflicting the Tom Jones version of Skye Boat on me when I'm in his truck.... |
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27 Jun 03 - 08:07 PM (#973618) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Helen Tunesmith, I know exactly what you are saying, and I think that this is a good topic for a discussion. Unfortunately, I can't think of specific examples right at this moment to add to your ideas, but give me a little time and I'll remember some renditions which really have knocked my socks off because of the change of flavour added by the artist. Wait, I just thought of a whole CD's worth of examples. Have you ever heard a CD or seen the video/tv programme called Red, Hot + Blue? It is Cole Porter's songs reworked by popular singers. One of my favourites is Tom Waits doing It's All Right With Me. This song actually turned me into a Tom Waits fan, but it took maybe 30 or more listens to get "into" what he does. I love almost every track on the CD because the songs themselves are good songs to start with, but then each artist or group has invested the song they have performed with a totally new way of performing it which breaks through the invisible barriers placed there by previous performers. They are too varied to talk about any one of the tracks because there is so much to say about all of the tracks. There is another CD with the same basic concept based on Gershwin songs called Red Hot + Rhapsody. I haven't had that one very long so I am still getting into the feeling of it. Helen |
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27 Jun 03 - 10:13 PM (#973657) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Padre My favorite example of this was Jonathan Eberhart's interpretation of the Everly Brothers' "Bye, Bye Love" as a cajun waltz in 3/4 time with accordion background by Bob McQuillen. Try it, it really works!!! Padre |
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28 Jun 03 - 12:12 AM (#973699) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: CRANKY YANKEE Try this When you're in the audience and an "Irish Folk music specialist" sings, "The Holy Ground", when he or she sings the line, "Fine girl you are", you sing, "fine girl Y O U are". I get mixed responses. My Buddy, Jim McGrath laughed out loud, others do not. Jody G. |
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28 Jun 03 - 12:29 AM (#973706) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: CRANKY YANKEE To: Guest Martin Gibson, I lettered, "Gibson's" above the word "Martin" on my D-28's hardshell case, using the same lettering style. So it reads, GIBSON'S MARTIN Jody Gibson |
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28 Jun 03 - 03:28 AM (#973734) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST I s'pose you all will think this is commercial or trite or blah, blah, blah but: I love to hear Carly Simon/James Taylor's "Mockingbird" |
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28 Jun 03 - 04:07 AM (#973739) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: MairSea The Micj West Band's version of 'Wild Rover'. |
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28 Jun 03 - 04:08 AM (#973740) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: MairSea Sorry Mick West!!! |
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28 Jun 03 - 04:28 AM (#973744) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Bob Bolton G'day Tunesmaith, Getting back to the original post ... I remember, around 1964, our local magazine Singabout set The Holy Ground on one page - opposite a locally collected song Lovely Nancy, learned by a great old singer, Sally Sloane (died ~ 1984), from her Irish Grandmother Sarah Alexander. This was, essentially, a slow and melodic version of the same song ... without the "Fine girl you are!" choruses. Probably not the song you came across ... but a parallel from the tradition. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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28 Jun 03 - 05:40 AM (#973759) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Bob Bolton G'day again Tunesmith (see .. I can spell ... type? ... well ...?) I remembered that Sally Sloane'sLovely Nancy, despite its Irish provenance, was on the Martyn Wyndham-Read (et al) Song Links double-CD project of English - Australian related songs. I see that this is because the Copper Family have a version of Adieu My Lovely Nancy that is clearly related to the one that Sally got from Ireland, via her grandmother. I guess that Sally's version represents what might have arrived in Ireland in the mid 1850s ... and The Holy Ground is what was left of it a century later! Regards, Bob Bolton |
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28 Jun 03 - 05:41 AM (#973760) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Micca I heard a Mudcatter do the "Wild Rover" to the tunethat goes "a Roving I'll give over, a roving no more" and it changed it from a stamp and go to a wistful song of regret!! |
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28 Jun 03 - 05:47 AM (#973762) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Micca Further info Here |
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28 Jun 03 - 05:51 AM (#973764) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Deckman Hi Tunesmith. Great idea for a thread. Thanks for thinking of it and taking the effort to post it. Yes indeed. I'll not post examples right now (tho I will soon) but the older I get, the more I am surprised and delighted with re-visiting old songs. Many of these I learned in my teens and twenties and I always knew them the way I learned them (hows that for a dumb statement). But these days, I find myself going through the story lines more carefully and thoughtfully. There are many, many gems there. CHEERS, Bob |
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28 Jun 03 - 06:47 AM (#973774) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Santa I was recently very much taken by Pint and Dale's more thoughtful version of Johnny Todd. |
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28 Jun 03 - 09:16 AM (#973800) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,alinact Tunesmith I don't suppose Rolf Harris' version of Stairway to Heaven is the sort of thing your thinking of? Allan |
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28 Jun 03 - 12:17 PM (#973841) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: SINSULL Or the "Blue Moon" of the 60s? Bomdedabomb Bomdedabomb, etc |
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28 Jun 03 - 12:20 PM (#973842) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: SINSULL Actually, Kendall does a speeded up version of "Rollin' Home". Quite a different take from Burl Ives', the version I knew. He says he was asked to sing it at Bluegrass fewstivals and it got faster and faster. The effect is celebration rather than dirge. |
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28 Jun 03 - 12:29 PM (#973844) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Frankham Tunesmith, a notable example would be Tom Dooley. The song would not have been popular had it not been for Bob Carey with the Folksay Trio who put the famous hiccup into the song that was lifted by the KT. Hang down your head Tom (hiccup) Doo-ley. There are many examples of what you are talking about. Micheal Row the Boat Ashore was arranged by Tony Saletan of Boston and picked up by Pete. It was adapted from "Slave Songs of the United States." The Caribbean flavor for the song "All My Trials" was originally from Erik Darling (Weavers, Tarriers, Folksay Trio and Rooftop Singers). He put the Island feel into it. Some might remember the Joan Baez version of Old Blue. I put the arrangement of that based on Cisco Houston's version. She picked it up from Guy Carawan who got it from me. Then there's Scarborough Fair (the Davy Graham/Paul Simon thing). That melody was floating around before Simon apparently based it on the Davy Graham version. Pete's version of Wimoweh is not too similar to the original. Also, someone put the latin beat to Where Have All the Flowers Gone. Pete originally sang it like a Russian folksong (since it comes from Mihail Sholokov's "Quiet Flows the Don". There are many instances in which songs get changed and popularized because of their arrangements. This was particularly true of the 60's Folkscare. Frank Hamilton |
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28 Jun 03 - 12:41 PM (#973851) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Deckman Some years ago I heard a wonderfully haunting version of "Sloop John B." It was sung by Jim Brown, of Browns Trimarane fame. He learned it as a teenager when he sailing/working in the Caribbean. He did is slow and thoughtfully. When you slow things down and get away from the group sing mentality, wonderful surprises can be gound. |
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28 Jun 03 - 01:56 PM (#973887) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Tunesmith Every year, I try to get to "The Maghull Day of Folk", held each November on the outskirts of Liverpool. It's a one day event and always has an interesting guest list. This year the amazing Vin Garbut is on of the stars; anyway, last year, my favourite act were the Doolins. They were very musical, and very funny. Towards the end of their set, they announced they would be doing " The Star of the County Down"; well, they begin the lead in to the song at a heck of a rocking, driving pace. I thought to myself, " How are they going to get away with this". Remembering that the tune is usually done to a medium, lilting tempo. Get away it they did, and how. It was terrific. It takes imagination and talent to do that. |
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28 Jun 03 - 02:04 PM (#973890) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Hutzulka Just a little clarification, Frankham. Sholokov wrote a novel "Quiet Flows the Don", wherein he included the phrases from a UKRAINIAN folk song, which Seeger then used as the basis for "Where Have All the Flowers Gone" (Oh, dreaded partisanship! It's not easy fact checking every Russian reference to make sure it's not really UKRAINIAN :) |
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28 Jun 03 - 02:18 PM (#973894) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Tunesmith It looks like it's "correct Frankham time" . All for the sake of clarity!. Anyway, it was Martin Carthy's version of Scarborough Fair that Paul Simon " borrowed ". I believe Martin got enough to buy a house from the out-of court settlement. p.s. Frankham. Thanks for your enlightening posting. |
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28 Jun 03 - 02:43 PM (#973910) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Deckman One of my all time favorite performers is George Austin, in the Seattle area. He does an wonderful slow and stately version of "Oh Suzzana." His guitar work is superb, almost like a classical piece, and when you really hear the words, it will make you smile. CHEERS, Bob (again) |
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28 Jun 03 - 05:11 PM (#973982) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Herga Kitty Tunesmith If you were involved in the Liverpool folk scene, you should hear John Prentice's slow version of "The Leaving of Liverpool." Martyn Wyndham-Read's slow version of "All for me grog" is pretty good, too. Kitty |
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29 Jun 03 - 03:27 PM (#974292) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: CraigS No-one has mentioned that splendid album on which William Shatner reworked a wide range of songs in a totally unique manner. |
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29 Jun 03 - 04:01 PM (#974300) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: jacqui c CraigS - you should get into the 'scenes we'd like to see in Star Trek' thread. I'll agree that Shatner is unique, but splendid album??? The man sort of dramatises his way through everything! I would agree that it is good to hear different versions of old favourites sometimes but there is still the enjoyment of the familiar, particularly when you go to a singaround - it's nice to be able to join in with choruses, which is diffilt to do when someone's tweeked the tune too much for it to be recognisable. I think that there's a time and a place for everything. Sometimes it is possible to improve on the original - like Peggy Seager's version of First Time Ever I Saw Your Face, which doesn't come anywhere close to the Roberta Flack version for atmosphere and emotion. |
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30 Jun 03 - 02:49 AM (#974466) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Liz the Squeak I don't know if it counts as it is his own song, but Eric Clapton doing 'Layla' as a sleazy blues number on the 'Unplugged' album.... not a guitar riff to be recognised, no electric instruments, just him, an accoustic and some gentle backing..... and a whole lot sexier song as a result...... On the reverse, I think the Animals version of 'House of the Rising Sun' is a lot better than the original (can't remember if it's Woody Guthrie or one other of that era that I've got a recording of), but somehow, it isn't actually much faster, just more energetic. LTS |
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30 Jun 03 - 02:59 AM (#974468) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Keith A of Hertford Old Swansea Town is a version of Holy Ground without the shouting. How about Kate rusby's unshanty like version of the Wild Goose Shanty, or Lonny Donnegan singing Sloop John B to a slow orchestral backing. Keith. |
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30 Jun 03 - 04:19 AM (#974491) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Hrothgar Um, jacqui c, did Flack do it before Seeger? ... seeing it was written for Seeger .... If you like, you might say Flack improved on the original. |
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30 Jun 03 - 04:42 AM (#974497) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: jacqui.c Hrothgar Sorry if I mislead you - I'm sure the Seeger version came first and I do think that Flack did it better. I first became aware of it in the film Play Misty For Me and have loved it ever since. I can't say that I'm a great fan of McColl on the whole but the man had romance in his soul to write something like that. Liz - definitely the Animals version of Rising Sun - I don't think I've ever heard it done better. I remember the summer that one came out, I spent so much money playing it on the juke box..... |
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30 Jun 03 - 05:17 AM (#974511) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,KB I loved (original lineup)Edward II 's reggae version of Wild Mountain Thyme. Sheer brilliance. It is an interesting question Tunesmith, and there are certainly two extremes of singer. At one end of the scale are those that endeavor to reproduce exactly the song as it was when they fell in love with it - and at the other end are those that can't resist playing around with the song and exercising its possibilities. I think that both types of singer are essential - we need people who preserve the old songs as per source, and we also need people who keep those same songs alive and evolving. Some people are entirely at one end or the other - but I suspect a lot of people will behave differently with respect to different songs - and as the moment takes them. I have found, though, that it is NOT easy for two opposite extreme singers to sing together. I have a friend who is at the preserving end, and I am at the experimenting end - and we don't half argue!!! |
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30 Jun 03 - 07:21 AM (#974552) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Tunesmith The House of the Rising Sun" comments are interesting. To me, The Animals simply took a hammer to Bob Dylan's version. Where Dylan builds up the tension of the song beautifully over a number of verses -with lovely folkie twists and turns in his vocal, The Animals were blasting away from the first few seconds - talk about lack of subtlety. However, to be fair, I'm sure producer Micky Most ( recently deceased ) wasn't into subtlety but just wanted to get the message across - fast! |
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30 Jun 03 - 07:41 AM (#974564) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,KB A friend of mine plays mostly blues, and also does some lovely flemenco style guitar. One night someone asked him to do some flemenco, but he really wanted to do House of the Rising Sun instead - so he sang it with flemenco guitar accompaniment. I thought it was brilliant! Also on the House of Rising Sun theme - my daughter also likes to play with songs & change them around a bit - and she had worked up a good variation. Unfortunately as soon as she started singing it (despite a very specific introduction) another friend of ours started singing along to the more usual tune. I had to ask him to shush - for which he alleges never to have forgiven me (though if he'd listened to the introduction he'd have known...........). Picking up on the Kate Rusby version of Wild Goose (mentioned above by keith) - I fell in love with the song from her version, but then opt to sing it my way by changing some of the words a bit & doing it as a fast blues/shanty. It seems to be happy both ways. |
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30 Jun 03 - 07:53 AM (#974572) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST I'll second John Prentice's slow version of "The Leaving of Liverpool" and add Mark Campbell and Paul Bellamy's slow version of "South Australia". |
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30 Jun 03 - 04:56 PM (#974635) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Martin Gibson Here's some more for all who take this so seriously: Jingle Bells by Hoyt Axton The Worms Crawl In by Doris Day Great Big gobs of Greasy Grimy Gopher Guts by Cugat & Charo Home on the Range (album version) by the Festus Hagen Quartet Last Train to Clarksville by the Lois Lane Trio Blue Moon of Kentucky by Julio Iglesias Virgin Mary Had a Baby Boy by Kinky Friedman |
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30 Jun 03 - 05:14 PM (#974638) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Liz the Squeak Ah well, there we go.... I've never knowingly heard the Dylan version of 'Rising Sun'... if you read it again, I mentioned Woody Guthrie, as it was, indeed, his version of it that I had heard. As I've never heard Dylan's version of it, I can't make comparisons other than it seems that Dylan took a sad song, made it better, and the Animals went that one step further, making it great. I possess a single Dylan recording - but it's so long since I played it, I can't even remember which single it is, I just know it isn't 'Rising Sun'! LTS |
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30 Jun 03 - 05:53 PM (#974669) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Tunesmith Of course, The Animal's " House of the Rising Sun" was an important record. Some have called it the first " folk rock" recording, and it certainly made Dylan sit up and think. |
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30 Jun 03 - 05:57 PM (#974674) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Martin gibson Tunesmith, Have to ask, how sure are you it made Dylan sit up and think? On what do you base this on? Did he have a long discussion on it with you? Any discussion? |
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30 Jun 03 - 06:05 PM (#974681) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Liz the Squeak Watch it, Tunesmith, we've woken the Dylan Troll up between us...... LTS |
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30 Jun 03 - 07:04 PM (#974731) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Leo Condie martin simpsons version of "fair annie" knocks me out everytime... and of course, bert jansch's "blackwater side" is stunning n'all Matty Groves by the Fairports... away from the great work of mr Trad Arr, however, bert's version of Blues Run The Game is perfect. lots more. |
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30 Jun 03 - 07:19 PM (#974744) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Deckman Many years ago I was enthralled when a favorite singer of mine, Don Normark,(Seattle), did a version of "Cowboy's Lament." If you'll think about it, there are two totally different and accepted melodies. One starts high and descends. The other starts low and stays there. What Don did was amazing, and I've never heard it recorded or sung by anyone else. He combines BOTH melodies. He sang the verse in the lower register, and did the higher melody for the chorus. It requires that the singer have almost a two octave range. It's taken me some serious work over the years, but I'm very pleased that I can now do it also. Try it ... you'll like it! CHEERS, Bob |
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30 Jun 03 - 10:18 PM (#974829) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Martin Gibson Dylan troll woken? Who could sleep listening to that voice? |
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01 Jul 03 - 12:00 AM (#974863) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: Jim Dixon I'd like to hear someone sing Johnny Cash's "Folsom Prison Blues" in a slow mournful style, with an acoustic blues guitar arrangement, rather like the way David Bromberg performs Dehlia (click to play). (I'm not sure the link will work; if not, go to Yahoo! Shopping > Music and search for DEHLIA. Keb' Mo' does something a bit like what I had in mind on the various artists' CD Kindred Spirits: A Tribute to the Songs of Johnny Cash. |
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02 Jul 03 - 05:52 AM (#975013) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Tunesmith Martin Gibson. Dylan has made a number of refences to the fact that he was impressed by The Animals version of " The House of the Rising Sun". The reasons are obvious. First, here was a song that Dylan had recorded with just a guitar, but then along come The Animals who take Dylan's version ( they admitted this to me, personally, back in 64 - that's name-dropping for you) and turn it into a rock masterpiece ( according to general opinion ). Secondly, Dylan hears The Animals version and bells start ringing. He starts to think, "If they, The Animals, can have a hit record with my material, then, maybe, I can across over into the rock market. Which, of course, he did. |
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02 Jul 03 - 11:17 AM (#975178) Subject: RE: Same song but .... From: GUEST,Martin Gibson And of course, Tunesmith, Dylan intimately told all of this to you one day in 1964 and some of his other most private thoughts. Did he confide in you that Pete Seeger would get mad at him? |