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23 Jul 03 - 11:03 AM (#988819) Subject: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: GUEST,leeneia There's a trip over the Atlantic on my calendar, and I'm interested in the noise-cancelling headphones that I see advertised. Consumer Reports hasn't tested them, and the reviews I find online are not too helpful. So, have any Mudcatters bought and used any of these? If so, were you able to listen to music while wearing them? I have a small tape player that I like to listen to on flights. Would your noise-cancelling phones fit over the small headphones from a tape-player? Finally, do the noise-cancelling phones have to be turned off when the captain says to turn off CD players and other electronic devices? |
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23 Jul 03 - 11:10 AM (#988825) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: Amos Never tried 'em, leenia -- but they are electronic devices. A |
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23 Jul 03 - 11:33 AM (#988854) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: Dave the Gnome Apparantly wearing headphones for an hour increases the bacteria in your ears by 700%. Dunno where I red that. Or why it matters... No help at all really;-) Cheers anyway and happy flying DtG |
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23 Jul 03 - 11:48 AM (#988865) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: Dave Swan Leenia, I have about 10 hours wearing time of noise cancelling headphones in helicopters, where it's critical to hear the radio which also comes through the headphones. I'm not nuts about them, they don't filter all frequencies equally, and when your head moves it alters the seal of the headphones, altering the effectiveness of the noise cancellation. The best noise cancellation seems to come at high frequencies, which is what you're probably bothered by in jet aircraft. There's plenty of information on the web about how these things work. I'd start by going to Bose and to David Clark for a look at the technical details. Most of my colleagues and I wear disposable ear plugs (I like Max brand from Howard Leight company) then put our headphones and or helmets on over them. I've never tried it with tape player headphones, but it's a cheap low tech solution you might consider. D |
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23 Jul 03 - 11:48 AM (#988866) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull use,ear-plugs get,them,from,your,local,gun-dealer. |
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23 Jul 03 - 01:55 PM (#988938) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: mack/misophist I've used half a dozen different ear plugs over the years. The best results were with the cylindrical foam ones. Be sure to follow the directions, it makes a difference. |
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23 Jul 03 - 02:35 PM (#988974) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: Dave Swan Misophist is correct, following the directions for earplugs makes a difference. Not all plugs come with good directions. Do this: Roll (don't squish) the plug between your thumb and forefinger into a tight cylinder. Hold the plug on the same side of your body as the ear for which the plug is destined. With your free hand reach over the top of your head and pull the top of your ear up as if you're an evil school teacher trying to move a student. You've straightened out the ear canal a bit, making it easier for the plug to do its job. Now insert the rolled plug into the canal. Here's the critical bit. Keep a finger on the end of the plug while it expands in the ear canal. Plugs worn with half of them sticking out are doing little good. Repeat. D |
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23 Jul 03 - 04:21 PM (#989049) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: Beccy About the noise cancelling headphones... my husband just tried out a pair at a local audio shop and was not impressed. He said that while they do block out other sound, the quality of the sound through the headphones is lacking. It sounded tinny and weak to him. He's a bit of a headphone nut, so it surprised me that these pricey ones (by BOSE) were not up to his standard. Beccy |
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23 Jul 03 - 04:53 PM (#989081) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: Mr Red Mine are Sony and they help on long flights. Had 'em about 7 years or so but where only available in the UK for 2 years - but saw them on sale in Kuala Lumpa airport in 2000. They are ideal for reducing the noise - you do still get the high frequency through which sounds louder and as an electronic engineer I am pretty certain it is not all subjective. The audio is definitely louder when you switch the cancelling on (by a small amount) and that IS techno-marketing. I find two minor problems 1) if you cover the microphones (or the air holes it not only ruins the effect but is noisier, and 2) depending on what they are plugged into (just about everything) I pick-up 50Hz (60Hz?) inside most buildings and whilst driving under some power cables. BUT the plus is it makes the redmobile almost acceptable in the axle noise dept. Most of which is arbitrary if you just want them for flight. So keep in mind you can't really sleep on them but if you find a comfortable position otherwise you definitely can sleep in them. Mine came with a funny little twin-pronged converter (one leg folds and it then doubles as a stereo to mono converter)- keep that safe because there are still airplanes with twin-pronged sockets though my last flight (737 I think) was a single prong outlet. They are physically about the size of your ear and not cupped over the ears - those Sennheiser models would be better for noise cancellation but not for the sleeping. Oh and if you hear a banging plop once a minute - it is the (single) battery needing changing. I love them. |
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23 Jul 03 - 05:09 PM (#989093) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: NicoleC Bear in mind that "cancelling" headsets actually produce TWICE the noise. Used improperly or in very loud environments, you can cause hearing damage without realizing it. Used occasionally in a plane would almost certainly be safe. But the suckers are really expensive. |
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23 Jul 03 - 05:11 PM (#989094) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: Mr Red Earplugs - I have got used to them but for sleeping in they can become wearisome. I wear them for ceilidhs and with all the adrenaline flowing it is not an issue then. The best I found are those bright yellow jobbies that racing drivers wear - they squash down to nothing , feel like putty but fill the ear slowly but well. They cutout more than any other types I have tried and Joy wears them overnight (farmer's daughter) and at ceilidhs and they are the only ones she can get to stay in. A UK brand name (maybe worldwide) is Earfit and come in a round snuff-box size plastic container. I will be wearing mine at Warwick FF and I don't even go inside the marquee - shouts for itself really dunnit? |
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23 Jul 03 - 07:03 PM (#989172) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: GUEST,leeneia I'm not hearing much enthusiasm for the noise-cancelling headphones. Perhaps I will stick with the yellow foam earplugs with my tape-player over them. For sleeping, I like the white, waxy earplugs. They are more comfortable, at least for me. By the way, I get the best listening when I make tapes of high-pitched music. Hammer dulcimer and flute, for instance, work much better than Beethoven symphonies and Russian male choirs. That's because the rumble of the jet engines drowns out the entire bass range. Mr. Red: I'm glad to hear from another person who finds that amplified folk is usually too loud. Dave Swan: Re "Plugs worn with half of them sticking out are doing little good." Actually, I sometimes use them partly out. They seem to filter loud, high-pitched sounds without masking the entire musical experience too much. |
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23 Jul 03 - 07:53 PM (#989209) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: NicoleC You know, you can get custom molded earplugs that are far superior and WAY more comfortable than the foam ones. Most are designed to try and create a flat response, so it doesn't sound muddy. These are excellent for wearing for extended times or going to a concert and wanting to reduce the noise while still being able to hear. Many are also available with swappable filters that allow you to select 10dB, 20dB, etc. reduction. |
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24 Jul 03 - 10:46 AM (#989564) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: Dave Bryant Am I right in thinking that the proper noise-cancelling ones actually feed in external noise with a 180 degree phase shift ? |
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24 Jul 03 - 10:52 AM (#989578) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: Dave Swan I've heard it expressed as "inverted in phase" which I think amounts to the same thing. D |
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24 Jul 03 - 12:04 PM (#989645) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: NicoleC Yes Dave -- the headphones attempt to produce an equal but opposite audio wave, so that the waves "cancel" each other out. Noise cancelling headphones don't reduce sound, it just reduces your perception of it, which is why it can be dangerous to your hearing if you don't monitor the situation. It short-circuits your's brain's mechanism that says "this is too loud," when you'd normally step away from the noise source or wear protection. (Which doesn't stop some retailers from making dubious claims about how these units "protect" your hearing.) Of course, this isn't a problem on a plane, for example, because it won't get that loud. But they should never be confused with hearing protection. I haven't investigated these set in a while, but it seems that there is a simple solution to the problem -- the headset manufacturers could simply place a decible limit on the headphones. Some of them might be doing this already. They do make passive noise reduction headphones. They aren't any more comfortable than ear plugs, though. |
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24 Jul 03 - 01:34 PM (#989737) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: Donuel The inverted phase technology was first used in buildings to eliminate annoying compressor noise with great results as reported by the people who had to work there day in day out. |
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24 Jul 03 - 10:12 PM (#990128) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: GUEST,leeneia Re: "you can get custom molded earplugs that are far superior" Where does one get them? |
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24 Jul 03 - 10:49 PM (#990145) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: NicoleC At an ear doctor or hearing clinic -- look in the yellow pages for "audiologist." They will take a mold of your ear and send it off to the manufacturer. You wouldn't think you could lose something that cost you that much money... but fortunately, they are cheaper now. I gather they will set you back about $250 nowadays including the fitting costs. |
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25 Jul 03 - 10:06 AM (#990409) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: GUEST,leeneia Thanks for the info, Nicole. At that kind of cost, I have second thoughts. Especially since I'm apt to lose them. |
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25 Jul 03 - 10:18 AM (#990423) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: DMcG Noise cancelling headphones don't reduce sound, it just reduces your perception of it, which is why it can be dangerous to your hearing if you don't monitor the situation. It short-circuits your's brain's mechanism that says "this is too loud," when you'd normally step away from the noise source or wear protection. (Which doesn't stop some retailers from making dubious claims about how these units "protect" your hearing.) Is this right? My understanding of the 180 phase shift is that the nett effect is that zero energy is transmitted to the eardrum or whatever. If there was +100 units of energy in the wave, -100 are added so the result is 0. As such, it is not reliant on 'short-circuiting the brain's mechanism': it is purely physics. I would agree, though, that this analysis assumes a 'point-receptor' which the ear isn't, so monitoring the situtation is certainly advisable. |
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25 Jul 03 - 01:22 PM (#990579) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: NicoleC Like most of biology, it's not a simple trigonometry equation. You hear primarily in two ways: Pressure on the inner ear Bone conduction, mostly from vibrations of the skull Air pressure is not reduced by these headphones, neither are the vibrations being picked up by your skull. Your inner ear is still getting a workout. Soem users of these headphones report side effects of nausea and an uncomfortable feeling of ear pressure, all symptoms of hearing damage. As the technology gets better, these side effects are being decreased -- there's hope for the technology yet. When you combine this with the increased possibility of hearing damage while using headphones, it makes it hard to gauge what is and is not a safe volume level. Which is not to say that anti-noise technology can't have significant benefits. If it means you aren't blasting music through headphones to hear it above the outside noise, that's a safety benefit. The psychological benefits when used to reduce your perception of crying babies on a plane is probably priceless depending on your tolerance level. But as protection goes - A set of high end Bose headphones is $300 A set of high end earplugs is $250 The cheapest noise-canceling headphones are about $50 The cheapest functional earplugs are available for free at many ear clinics Here's a paper on the ANR techology. In summary, in less than 1% of high noise environments did anti-noise technology prove to be an improvement over conventional hearing protection. |
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25 Jul 03 - 01:40 PM (#990597) Subject: RE: BS: noise-cancelling headphones? From: DMcG Thanks for the detail. |