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03 Aug 03 - 03:29 PM (#996024) Subject: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Billiam Bob Dylan's Good As I Been to You (1992)includes a version of Black Jack Davey and I was wondering where the tune to this version had come from. I would be interested if anyone has the answer. I know that this song has been the subject of extensive discussion in the past, but I could not find anything of the origins of Dylan's version (though I could have missed something). Thanks if you can help. |
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03 Aug 03 - 03:54 PM (#996033) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Little Hawk Bob has always been inclined to rework the lyrics and/or the music to traditionals, so this recording may have simply been a brand new version, musically speaking. |
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03 Aug 03 - 06:48 PM (#996099) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Billiam True enough as regards the lyrics, which are not so far apart from several tradition versions (see Max Hunter website and Bronson) but the tune is something different which is miles apart from any of those that I have come across so far. Any suggestions??? |
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04 Aug 03 - 08:00 AM (#996344) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Little Hawk Well, like I say, he probably just decided to do it a new way. I note that the serious folk-worthies on this forum are blandly ignoring this thread. I wonder why? Is it not a pure enough subject for you? Or are y'all simply at a loss for words? - LH |
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04 Aug 03 - 08:06 AM (#996346) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: GUEST,IanN This was the first version of BJD I heard and as consequence I tend to compare other versions (usually unfavourably) with Dylan's. On reflection Dylan's is closer to being "traditional" (whatever that means) than many - Steeleye Span's version comes to mind. |
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04 Aug 03 - 08:11 AM (#996349) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Little Hawk Thank God for GUESTS, that's all I can say... |
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04 Aug 03 - 08:27 AM (#996361) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: GUEST,IanN Only a guest because I can't keep cookies on my PC at work! Some of the folkies on this forum want a good kick up the........ You get the impression they'd have all been the ones slow hand clapping at the Free Trade in Manchester '66. ;-) |
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04 Aug 03 - 08:58 AM (#996380) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: greg stephens Well Little Hawk, the reason I'm not discussing the tune is because I've never heard a recording of Dylan singing it(or William Shatner either, come to that). |
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04 Aug 03 - 09:07 AM (#996386) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Dave the Gnome It's a funny old world init? The first version I heard was 'spans and I always tend to compare others to that! I am a big fan of Mr Z as well though. Hey! Who had their teen years in the 60's and wasn't? I spent years with a yard or two of the best plywood I could afford in Woolworths and a Lucky Star gob-iron in C trying to emulate that sound;-) I have not heard the 1992 BJD though. Must give it a listen! The only thing I would bring to the trad/non-trad controversy though is that given time everything that is worth keeping becomes trad! What I find odd is the phrase 'I like folk music' is usualy answered by a) 'Oh , all that finger in the ear, Arran sweater stuff?' or b) 'Oh, all that contemporary mumbling of meaningful lyrics into the microphone?' Both camps get up my nose! Folk music is undefinable! Cheers and good luck with the research. Dave the Gnome |
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04 Aug 03 - 10:05 AM (#996430) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: GUEST,IanN Hi Greg Come along to the 1st Middlewich Open Mic Night on Wed. 20th Aug. I'll do a mean impression of Dylan's version for you!!! Ian (Salt Town Poets) |
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04 Aug 03 - 10:08 AM (#996433) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: greg stephens I might just do that,Ian. In which case,i could do the first version I heard: Dick Bishop, singing with the Lonnie Donegan skiffle group. |
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04 Aug 03 - 10:17 AM (#996441) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: GUEST,IanN That would be great! |
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04 Aug 03 - 11:38 AM (#996503) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Little Hawk I just can't resist rattling the ivory cages around here now and then... :-) I rather like Bob's version, but that almost goes without saying, doesn't it? |
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04 Aug 03 - 03:53 PM (#996630) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Billiam It is good to have the contributions from people with a similar view of Dylan's excellent version of Black Jack Davey, but it would be even better to know the answer to question originally posed: where did the tune used by Dylan come from? My researches have led me to the wonderful Max Hunter Folk Song collection on http://146.7.8.8/folksong/MaxHunter/index.html which includes seven versions of the song with tunes, and the equally impressive Wolf Folklore Collection on http://www.lyon.edu/wolfcollection/songs/songs.html which includes another couple of versions, and several others appear in various book collections. The diversity of the words and tune is fascinating, BUT none of the tunes that I can find remotely resembles the one used by Dylan - where did he get it from? (could it be taken from a different song???) I have been massively impressed by the knowledge and scholarship of many people who have contributed to mudcat discussions in the past, and cannot believe that there is not someone out there with the answer to this question, or at least some suggestions for other material I should be looking at. Still confident of finding the answer - but suggestions gratefully appreciated Bill |
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04 Aug 03 - 04:40 PM (#996649) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Bill D one of the reasons you get few replies is that the thread was started on Sunday, and the traffic around here drops considerably till Monday evening.. (I know 3-4 versions of the song, but not Dylan's, so I was just being polite for a change and not making smart alec remarks.. ;>) |
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04 Aug 03 - 05:31 PM (#996676) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Billiam Dear Bill D Thanks for pointing this out to me. I am fairly new participant to mudcat discussions, but had been amazed by the rapidity of some of the responses in the past (with people from all over seeming to be in competition to get in thier responses first). As you say, Sunday is probably a slow period. All the best Bill |
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04 Aug 03 - 05:41 PM (#996683) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Bill D *nodding*...yep, the weekends are quite a bit slower..(I think a few folks post 'mostly' from work..*tsk*)...but as the east coast of the US gets home from work on Monday eve, things pick up...and I'd bet that Tues, Wed, & Thurs are the heavy days... |
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05 Aug 03 - 11:56 AM (#997161) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Nerd I haven't heard the BD version in years, so I don't know the answer for sure, but Woody Guthrie had a version of this song from his mother which he recorded. BD being such a big WG fan, it might make sense to compare those two versions. |
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05 Aug 03 - 12:19 PM (#997185) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Steve Latimer Dylan's version is he only one I recall hearing. Good As I Been To You is one of those little gems in Bob's career. It didn't sell very well, but I really like it. Just Bob, his guitar and a collection of great old songs. |
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05 Aug 03 - 01:59 PM (#997279) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Billiam Dear Nerd Thanks for the suggestion. I listened again to the Woody Guthrie version (another excellent variant of the same song) and though the words have quite a lot in common, the tunes are greatly different. The WG tune fits to a major chord sequence (as do most of the other versions that I have come across) but the Dylan tune has a distinctly minor or modal feel to it. Here I run across the limitations of my musical knowledge, could Dylan have somehow modalised the tune, or does another elusive source exist? I would love to know, and live in hope that there is an expert somewhere on line who has this sort of knowledge at their fingertips. Many thanks for the reminding me about the WG version anyway. All the best Bill |
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05 Aug 03 - 04:32 PM (#997379) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: harpgirl ...I've just found my copy and it seems to be in Emin. He seems to be playing a triplet pattern. There are only about two more chords, I think...an A and something else...maybe 72 beats a minute or something like that...anyone really know? I think it should be modal at any rate....This is one of my favorite Dylan recordings...hg |
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05 Aug 03 - 04:43 PM (#997386) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: harpgirl oops! Gmin Dmin FC...no wonder, I don't play it...I need another harp! hg |
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05 Aug 03 - 04:48 PM (#997389) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: harpgirl Here is a link: http://hem.passagen.se/obrecht/backpages/chords/35_gaibty/black_jack_davey.htm |
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06 Aug 03 - 02:14 AM (#997681) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Mark Cohen And here is a variation. (I don't know which melody this is based on.) Aloha, Mark |
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06 Aug 03 - 09:39 AM (#997881) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: harpgirl jeezus, mark...your parodies are brilliant and sooooo soooo very naughty!!! |
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07 Aug 03 - 12:43 AM (#998335) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: Mark Cohen Thanks, HG, but I wouldn't consider them naughty...unless you mean the Barry Manilow reference. Aloha, Mark |
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30 Apr 10 - 08:25 AM (#2897254) Subject: RE: Black Jack Davey Dylan From: GUEST,Davey Bob All these years later, is anyone still looking for an answer to the question? I haven't heard the source, but Clinton Heylin says (in 'Dylan: Behind Closed Doors', Penguin, 1996) that "although Dylan was performing Gypsy Davey as early as 1961, this version of the well-known traditional yarn of infidelity was almost certainly taken from Mike Seeger's 1988 recording (on 'Fresh Old Time String Music')." |