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10 Aug 03 - 05:32 PM (#999865) Subject: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton I live a few miles from a small country town. Over the last five years i have become increasingly concerned about the numbers of young people appearing in the local Sherrif Court on herion related charges. The numbers of addicts on the street are also increasing. Until a few years ago this was not a problem in our area. As the age of the people who post on Mudcat appears to range mainly between 40 and 60,I wonder if anyone shares my feeling, that we must shoulder much of the responsibility for the horror being inflicted on our children . Please give your thoughts on this . Ake.. |
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10 Aug 03 - 07:05 PM (#999905) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Janie The past always bears some responsibilty for the shape of the present and the future. Always there are unintended consequences to the choices we make individually and culturally. (ex. the USA going into Iraq is to some degree an unintended consequence of the fall of the USSR.) Ultimately, each individual must be responsible for the choices they make. Now, are we responsible for teaching our children how to make good choices? Definitely. Can we control the choices they make? No. Do we have to keep asking ourselves if we are to blame? Yes, to a certain extent I think we do. I think that questioning is what "wisdom" consists of. Janie |
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10 Aug 03 - 07:18 PM (#999912) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Amos Well surely, by omission -- no-one in your region has invented the activity that would successfully educate the youth or their parents. None of you has written the perfect book which transforms the culture and wakes up those whose lack of communication leads their young into desperation. None of you has founded the exact youth activity or center to disseminate exactly the write lessons in the actually effective way or figured out how to make a self-expanding circle of precision intervention by peers. But you have to differentiate, when you are shopping for ashes and hair shirts, between those things that are within your sphere of influence and those things beyond it. A |
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10 Aug 03 - 07:25 PM (#999916) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton I very much agree with you Janie.I feel that as the generation which made a virtue of materialism,(the Thatcher -Reagan years),we have left our youth devoid of ideals or common humanity. I often contrast this with my own youth, which included the Folk Revival.WE were full of hope and optimism. I think we are putting our heads in the sand over this dreadful problem,hoping it will go away instead of admitting we have failed our young people and trying to make things better. Alex |
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10 Aug 03 - 07:33 PM (#999919) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow "WE were full of hope and optimism." And stoned a lot of the time too, of course. |
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10 Aug 03 - 07:41 PM (#999924) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton Amos....Your attempts at sarcasm are a bit out of place in this thread I think. I was simply trying to point out that the present way of dealing with this problem...Imprisoning addicts ect ,dont seem to be working.Nor do the various programs like methadone substitute.Therefore I would like to see ordinary people address this problem which could perhaps put an end to our society .. |
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10 Aug 03 - 07:47 PM (#999930) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton Mcgrath..I usually respect your views, but on this occasion I must differ.Theres a wide gap between our boozy sessions and the poor souls I see on the streets of our wee town,children with no future indeed... |
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10 Aug 03 - 08:09 PM (#999944) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: artbrooks Not that heroin use isn't a problem...it certainly is...but it doesn't seem to be a growing one. I don't know where you are, Akenaton, but the percentage of users in the US hasn't changed significantly in the last 20+ years. It was 1.3% in 1979, 1.2% in 2000 and 1.4% in 2002. On the other hand, cocaine use increased by 50% in the same period. (stats here) |
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10 Aug 03 - 08:15 PM (#999946) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow I'm not denying that. And I suspect we might well agree about the roots of the problem, and the kind of things that would help eliominate or reduce it. But whether it's our boozy sessions, or less legal substances, then or now, it's not the drugs themself that are the real problem, it's the way they get used, and the various way society deals with them. And being full of hope and optimism didn't mean a lot of us weren't full of other stuff often enough. |
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10 Aug 03 - 08:16 PM (#999947) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Ely What about other drugs? The small Midwestern town where I attended college had a growing methamphetamine problem. At least, it appeared to be growing (maybe it was just becoming more obvious?). Most of the kids, though, were still clean (at least, as clean as people that age have ever been). I guess there's a new set of problems each time around that the previous generation didn't/couldn't forsee. I'm only 26 and, while I know there was a lot of drinking and drug use going on when I was in high school, it seems as though it's a lot worse now. I can't tell if it really is or if it's just that everyone is talking about it more. |
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10 Aug 03 - 08:21 PM (#999950) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton Art...The drug of choice seem to differ from place to place,but the use of hard drugs and herion in particular is rocketing in the small towns of Scotland,and the attitude of most people is "not our problem let the authorities deal with it".Its this attitude Im questioning. |
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10 Aug 03 - 08:49 PM (#999967) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Amos Ake, Sorry it was not clear, but I really wasn't being sarcastic. Any individual can take on responsibility for the condition things are in. The way your question was posed it seemed you were asking whether individuals in the community should be blamed. I think it would be a wonderful idea for someone or a small group to find some workable method or way of communicating or educating or detoxing other intervention that would effect a successful prevention or salvage for a small number of people from drug abuse; it could then become a grass roots methodology that circulated and grew by reason of its success. But the thing is these interventions are too often based on some sort of "should-y" prescriptive moralistic grounds, which of course prevents them from communicating very well wiith those who really most need to be reached. A |
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10 Aug 03 - 08:52 PM (#999968) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton Perhaps if the media could be persuaded to take a more adult stance on the drugs issue(not shock ...horror ...lock em up),we could get the population at large to except that this is a problem that concerns every one of us ,and maybe then the politicians would be forced to take REAL action ...Ake |
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10 Aug 03 - 09:03 PM (#999971) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Amos Politicians? Politicians are part of the problem, Ake. They promote an atmosphere where false communication is considered an acceptable substitute, and cheap token concepts allowed to serve as a replacement for meaning anything at all. The only thing I have ever seen pull someone off drugs or keep them from tipping into it if they are of the kind to get sucked in is personal, live and genuine communication of real thoughts. Not an art that many politicians are familiar with. A |
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10 Aug 03 - 09:03 PM (#999972) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Cattail Putting my (unwanted) 00.02p worth in. I think that the drugs, (and drink) problem stems in part from the relaxed attitudes to general discipline in the home, if parents can't be bothered to teach their kids the rights and wrongs of life, and a great many of them don't, then how are they to know when they come up against things like these. I see a lot of children, both outside my own home, and at my place of work. Near my home, the kids come home from school and go straight back out on the street to play, back in to eat, and back out again until darkness falls. Do these parents know they've got kids? At my place of work, you can tell the undisciplined ones a mile off, they are the ones who never shut up, always shouting, running about aimlessly, just being a general nuisance. Yes, I guess it IS our fault, we fail them through lack of attention and the discipline which has been taken from us by (dare I say it) "do gooders", we don't want to beat or chastise children without cause, but a good slap on the legs, in the right place, never did any child any harm. In my own childhood I got a good few slaps for being naughty, that was for the general run of the mill things, BUT there was always a strap hanging in the pantry that you KNEW you would get if you were really BBAAADD. (Yes I got it once or twice, mainly for accidentally breaking windows with footballs). But I had good parents, and a good childhood, we knew right from wrong and it stayed with us, these things don't seem to apply today mores the pity. Sorry for the ramblings. cheers Cattail 0~ |
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10 Aug 03 - 09:04 PM (#999973) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton Amos ..In a way i am saying that we should all be blamed.Firstly for allowing this situation to come about ,and secondly for ignoring it ,even when its becomming more and more obvious.I dont think the politicians can be left to deal with this most important of problems.They just cant be trusted...This seems to be a situation that requires a community solution....Alex |
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10 Aug 03 - 09:06 PM (#999974) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Art Thieme Heroin is indeed a problem here in North-Central Illinois (LaSalle County). It never was before the last couple of years, but it sure is now. But it's right in keeping with the realities of the area. This is the county with the highest per-capita rate of alcoholism in the entire United States. Our congressional representatives' (Mautino) family business is liquor and beer distrobution. The gangs are here now too, and this drug --- heroin---one of many --- came with them as surely a greed comes with corporations. Until we drop the puritanical ethic that tells us the punitive answer is the correct one, and rehabilitation stays so very far down on the priority list, we will continue to create and perpetuate this problem for ourselves. After all, it's good for the economy. (facetious) Art Thieme |
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10 Aug 03 - 09:13 PM (#999977) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton Theres a lot of truth in your words Art..Here in UK it seem that cost is stopping the problem being dealt with(heroin on prescription,with proper supervision).But politicians can always find the money to wage war.. |
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10 Aug 03 - 09:17 PM (#999980) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Not sure about other cities, but drugs are a big problem in Hull. I used to think we should legalise the whole lot, and let the druggies get on with it and do what they like, now I'm not so sure. It is estimated that 70-80 percent of the street crime in Hull is drugs related, ie burgalry, robbery, prostituition, shoplifting, cheque-book fraud etc], we often se in Hull, car steroes been offered for sale for £10 or £20 pound, when theyb cost £100 pounds new. I work as a pizza delivery driver in central Hull, and oftem pass, the prostitutes, they look skinny and ill, I have to afdmit thst whilst they look like " shitty people", you can't help but feel sorry for them, [they are sleeping with anyone, who could have aids or hiv, or god knows what, just so they can get a bit of dope or crack or whatever they are on]! I think there should be more drugs awareness programmes, I read recantly [last year i think], that a little kid in yorkshire , not sure where [ sheffield or doncaster]?, died of a drug overdose at only 10 years old!, this is absolutely disgusting!, I am not a parent [things did'nt work out with my girlfend, otherwise we might have had kids by now], I'm often glad , that i am single with no kids, as i can do what i like, ie [if i fancy touring rounsd afica, i can do], I often wonder what is going on, many people dont seem to give a shit about each othr, - and only think of themselves. A couple of years ago English opera was given £78 and a half milllion pounds, i wonder how much was given to drug rehabhilatation? [proibly not much, if any]. The whole system is a big load of shit.john |
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10 Aug 03 - 09:24 PM (#999984) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton Thanks for that John. I enjoy your comical posts and its nice to see your serious side.The problem is that many of the addicts will ask you "What is there to be rehabilitated for"..Best wishes Alex |
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10 Aug 03 - 09:28 PM (#999985) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Cattail-I agree with you, as i said, i work as a hot food delivery driver, one house we go to =" wayne, gerover ere", "why". "cos your fucking dinners reddy".As I am now, I am reasonably fit and healthy, but I see gangs of 20-30 youths hanging around my local supermarket, this does not particularly bother me, but i know for a fact , if i wee 70 or 90 years old, i would probably be scared to leave the house! I really dont know the answer to this, if i had the money i would livr in quiet villsage in the country. |
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10 Aug 03 - 09:35 PM (#999987) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: GUEST legalise pot...decriminalise hash..and lsd and mescaline... shoot anyone who takes and deals crank, crack, coke and smack.. |
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10 Aug 03 - 09:53 PM (#1000012) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull akenaton-not sure where you are, but if you are in UK, you will apreccite the problem, I reckon that most people here, just want to live a peaceful life, perhaps go to the pub once a week, and invite their mates round for a few cans once a week. I spoke to Jon & Pip Freeman at a festival , a couple of years ago, they told me that druggies are in their village!, as i said, i wou;d like to be able to invite my friends here for a drink and a sing once a month or whatever, BUT, how would i feel if there car was broken into by the druggies down the street? A friends of mine and local Catter {Bassic], visited me recently, I said to him " have you left any valuables in your car?" If so bring them in. Also, Les from Hull came here recently,I gave him a lift to a festival [ les does not drive], he says " i coulf leave my cycle outside, chained to your fence?" i said "no, you should bring it in. or they will nick it" there is too many theifs here, and nost of tyhem are on drugs, if i hafd the money, i would move away from hull.john |
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10 Aug 03 - 11:05 PM (#1000055) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: mg Easy to recommend, admittedly not as easy to execute, but if you want teenagers to not use drugs, not get pregnant, not drink, not smoke, etc...they have to be chaperoned. Plain and simple. And any 14 year old worth her salt is going to say but don't you trust me. Better have a good answer ready but chaperone anyway. I don't know up to what age but certainly through age 16....And insist on laws for vagrancy, loitering, truancy, breaking of curfews being written as fairly as possible and then enforced. mg |
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11 Aug 03 - 12:02 AM (#1000065) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: katlaughing And get rid of the "War" on drugs...that rhetoric alone is enough to cause failure...imagine it is really declaring war on our own citizens who need rehabilitation which teaches them how to cope, etc. Cattail said, Near my home, the kids come home from school and go straight back out on the street to play, back in to eat, and back out again until darkness falls. Do these parents know they've got kids? My husband and his siblings did that in all of their growing up years, as did I, but we had at least one parent at home and we were expected to take care of chores, homework, etc. I guess my point is, it wasn't harmful for us to go out and play, come in and eat, then go out to play, again, but there were definite differences compared to what a lot of kids have today. It would help if the conservatives in government would recognise parenthood as a legitimate occupation and not make parents feel worthless for wanting to stay home or guilty for having to work to support their families. Imagine if we spent money on "wages" for at least one parent in each household with young children, to be able to stay home with them, instilling basic values, nurturing good judgement and teaching them how to cope. A wise investment, imo, but our government (USA) would rather throw money away on failed capitalists ventures, useless so-called wars, and more prisons...no pre-emptive, positive spending on our children and their families for the good ol' USA! kat |
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11 Aug 03 - 12:40 AM (#1000074) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: GUEST,.gargoyle I have a dear friend.
In our younger years we used to ramble.
Meeting a degenerate, begger, crack-head, begging for money.... he would sometimes pause....assess the situation....contemplate ...and then pull-out a 20, 50, or 100 from his wallet.
I asked him..."Why the hesitation?"
He replied, "I need to assess the situation, and location, and earning-potential pathos of this person. As a good steward of the resources allocated to me....I must determine the minimal amount it will take to allow this person to OD (overdose) and thereby rid society of another leach upon its circulatory system....100 today....may be compounded into tens-of-thousands...perhaps millions in the overall "big-picture-of-society."
I took his philosophy to heart and practice it...to this day.
Sincerely,
Some in society only need the smallest of nudges - to make the RIGHT decision. |
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11 Aug 03 - 06:50 AM (#1000151) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: GUEST,Jon John, just to clarify, I don't think there is a real drug problem in our village. Cromer is supposed to have quite a few problems though. |
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11 Aug 03 - 08:07 AM (#1000165) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Pied Piper Human beings have been taking psychoactive substances for maybe 100 millennia. Almost all cultures use these substances and many religious and cultural ideas came about through their use. Having said that these drugs were general used to intensify social participation and facilitate changes in status (rights of passage). As has been pointed out some drug use today in the west is as a form of escape. This is in direct response to the increasing inappropriate individualism (Americanisation) pushed on us by politicians and corporate gangs. As our glorious leader once said "there is no such thing as society, only families and individuals" The problem for Society in general is that street heroine is relatively expensive; this means that those addicted must find large amounts of money to get a fix. They do this by steeling and dealing. To my mind the way to deal with this is to give addicts BP Heroin by prescription, thus removing them as a source of revenue for the dealers and cutting crime at the same time. Most Heroin addicts (that survive) eventually give up. As to the bigger picture of giving people a reason to get up every morning and joyously take part in a social world where everyone realises their interdependence, I'm not sure. I fear that things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. I'll do what I can. But " It's never been my duty to remake the world at large, nor is it my intention to sound a battle charge." All the best PP |
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11 Aug 03 - 08:09 AM (#1000166) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow Drugs and crime are related all right - and it is true enough that some part of that is because drug use in itself can in some cases make people more likely to commit some kind of crime (over and above drug use itself where this is illegal). This applies to legal drugs as well, most especially alcohol. But prohibition njust diesn't work - it makes things far far worse. The much more significant source of the link between drugs and crime is that prohibition directly encourages crime. Selling illegal drugs involves an enormous profit, and buying them requires an enormous expenditure, money which is obtained by crime of various kinds, and by selling on drugs and encouraging others to use them. Take the money out of it, and you don't solve all the problems, but you would eliminate many of them, and get rid of the direct link between drug use and criminal activities. |
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11 Aug 03 - 08:25 AM (#1000171) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Pied Piper Yes I agree absolutely Heroin is expensive because it's illegal. The raw material costs pennies. PP |
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11 Aug 03 - 09:45 AM (#1000204) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: smallpiper Actually H is inexpensive. The problem in usage comes because of the way that it is cut (mixed with outher substances) - the poorer the quality the more you need to get the same high or in the case of most addicts to feel normal, therefore the more cash you need to raise to fund your habit. Accidental overdoses occur when supplies of unusual purity hit the streets. This is often (but not always) caused (ironically) by police action, people need to get rid of their supplies quickly so they don't cut it as much and the result is obvious to all and tradgic for many. There are also a lot of myths about drugs and crime. According to an article in "Monkey" magazine (a self help mag produced by users and ex-users for users and ex-users in the UK), they used the UK Gov's own stats on drug use and crime in producing the article. They claim that; if the amount of crime being blamed on H users (not just adicts) was actually carried out by said users then there would be no H users because they would be to busy committing crimes to have any time left to use H. If you really want to help drug users you can do so by talking to them and find out what it is they want, as an alternative to their current lifestyles, as an alternative to current treatments and then empower them to do something about it. But without the will from the powers that be to support any kind of action then you're screwed before you start. |
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11 Aug 03 - 10:29 AM (#1000226) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Peg good suggestion there smallpiper. I disagree that it is not the drugs themselves that are the problem. That is like saying a slow-loading musket is virtually the same as a semi-automatic machine gun. Marijuana is not addictive, nor is hash, nor apparently is ecstasy or psilocybin mushroms or LSD. Cocaine and heroin and Oxycontin and morphine and Demerol are highly addictive, as are many ampetamines. Notice there are some legal drugs mentioned in there. People steal to support addictive drug habits. Rarely does anyone resort to theft to fulfill a desire to smoke pot or take ecstasy (I am not supporting ecstasy use, BTW; I understand the "new" pill form can be very dangerous and I always advise my students not to do it). I am not saying use of the psychotropic or hallucinogenic drugs is not without problems or dangers...but we need to be clear that specific substances have their diferences, and the economics, crime statistics and psychopathology they engender are all very different. Ever talk to people who have been addicted to prescription pain killers for years? They slur their words, blank out half the time, and look like hell; they usually are unemployed or on disability. Soem have legitimate health problems but most of them are unwilling to explore alternative methods for addressing their chronic pain issues (like acupuncture, changes in diet/lifestyle, physical therapy, stress management, etc.) because they are addicted and it's much easier to pop a pill than to do something pro-active (I think this is true in some cases of people who rely on mood enhancers or anti-depressants, though also agree these drugs help a great many people). Meanwhile, many people I know who smoke marijuana or hashish daily are high-functioning members of society (albeit prone to watch TV or eat juink food late at night but that is true of non drug users as well). The way the prison system deals with addicts is atrocious. Apparently it is very easy to obtain drugs in prison. Rehabilitation is almost nil. Those incarcerated on possession charges who are users as opposed to dealers usually get right back into the lifestyle once they get out. We have become a very addictive society; food, drugs, sex, spending, alcohol, cigarettes, violence, technology, and bad behavior. Part of it seems to be that we need a quick fix for everything (no pun intended). The pharmaceutical industry surely shoulders blame here but I don't see them losing any money; nor do I see them focusing on cures for devastating diseases that only affect Third World countries: much more profitable to keep inventing subtle pills that make disgruntled American Yuppies with empty lives feel better. The new trend will be "performance enhancing" drugs. Gotta stop now this is too depressing |
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11 Aug 03 - 11:00 AM (#1000247) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: smallpiper Thank you Peg. However there is a great debate about the addicivness of marijuana. The stuff that is about today contains a hell of a lot more of the active ingredient than the stuff I smoked in the 70's (in some cases as much as 75% more)it has a lot more carcenogenous material in it and has demonstrative long term psychological side effects and it has been geneticaly modified. But then again its non addicitive untill you meet those who are addicted on a psychological level. It really just depends on what reports you read. As for prisons I have known users who have entered prison on possession (blow) charges and have come out with a raving H addiction. I have also known H adicts who have come out clean and stayed clean. A lot of it is down to the individual and not the system (although they could be a lot more proactive in supporting individuals). |
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11 Aug 03 - 12:13 PM (#1000271) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow Actually I would suggest the more addictive a drug is, the more dangerous to society it is when we make it profitable to sell it, by making it illegal and so sending the price sky-high. If something isn't really addictive, when it's banned people swear a bit, and do without. But if you're really addicted to something, obtaining it regardless becomes a priority. Maybe if they took the profit out of selling drugs, one effect might be that more people used them, or rather, they might use a wider variety of drugs than they do at present, when most people stick to the currently legal ones such as alcohol, nicotine and caffeine. However, even if there was wider drug use, it would be probably be a great less harmful to society than the present situation, since no one would need to steal to obtain them, and no one could make a massive profit by encouraging others to buy them. I'm sure that when prohibition of alcohol in the States was abandoned the amount of social drinking rose - but I doubt if the amount of problem drinking rose proportionately. |
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11 Aug 03 - 05:27 PM (#1000463) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Peg true, smallpiper, I have met those who seem to have a psychological addiction marijuana. But it's still as damaging to health as heroin or cocaine. As for the individual triumphing over the system (and over their own weakness or addiction), it'd be great if that were true in the majority of cases but it doesn't appear to be the case in this country. |
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11 Aug 03 - 07:45 PM (#1000532) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow "But it's still as damaging to health as heroin or cocaine. " I rather suspect a "not" has been missed out of that sentence by Peg. I think when people talk about the evil effects of drugs they are missing the point. All kinds of things in our society have evil effects, most especially on vulnerable people. Junk food, just for a start. However we generally recognise that attempts to impose bans and excessive restrictions by law on what people choose to do almost always seem to have bad effects that outweigh the good. There are better ways to go about it that don't have those effects. |
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12 Aug 03 - 04:49 PM (#1001031) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton Although i am pleased with all your responses -Even Gargoyle has a valid point to make...the reason i opened this thread was to gauge your opinions about ways of making people realise that we are all part of this whether we like it or not,and therefore should all be involved in the solution.. I repeat ,we were the generation who left for our children ,a society devoid of idealism..founded on greed...and kept alive by spin and deception....Even my own family who wre not deprived in my opinion, now see the accumulation of wealth as the main aim in life..As Rabbie Burns says... "I weary backwards cast my ee. O er prospects drear And forward tho I canna see I guess and fear. |
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12 Aug 03 - 06:16 PM (#1001065) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow I repeat ,we were the generation who left for our children ,a society devoid of idealism..founded on greed...and kept alive by spin and deception....Even my own family who wre not deprived in my opinion, now see the accumulation of wealth as the main aim in life The people I seem to know just don't fit that profile. There are plenty who do, and for one reason or another that seems to be sold to us as how it is, probably because, for the people who tell us about ourselves in the media it may well tend to be true. And it sells papers of course. But as always, the spotlight shines on just one part of the stage, and only shows a fraction of what is actually happening, and not necessarily the most significant portion. To a very considerable degree (by no means wholly) the folkmusic subculture is permeated by opposite values to those akenaton picked out there. One way and another I think that a lot of people round the Mudcat are engaged in building a counterculture with roots and branches, and it can undermine that despairing and destructive type of drug culture which is the underside of a society where all that matters is money and power. |
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12 Aug 03 - 07:01 PM (#1001083) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton Im afraid Mudcat isnt the panacea were looking for....Its sometimes nice to have ones ego massaged,but the egos a big part of the problem.... |
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12 Aug 03 - 07:10 PM (#1001087) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow I wasn't particularly referring to the Mudcat. There are no panaceas, never are. There are just things that can help make things better, as against things that can make them worse. |
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12 Aug 03 - 07:13 PM (#1001091) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Amos But as always, the spotlight shines on just one part of the stage, and only shows a fraction of what is actually happening, and not necessarily the most significant portion. Now there's a piece of wisdom talkin' -- lissen to the man! A |
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13 Aug 03 - 01:52 AM (#1001205) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Barry Finn Attention, long babling, sorry. "It takes a village to raise a child" as well as a parent(s). Some of those villages are South L.A, Harlem, Detroit, DC & every other inner city slum in the USA. If anyone thinks that their area is a mess just because some cars get broken into of your motorcycle gets lifted hasn't had the grand tour of the scope & magnitude of the effects of drugs in our society. Try changing your live style to "don't be caught dead out at night", or live in a place that's proud to be called the "Home of the Drive Bye" where mother is only half a word. where going to the grocery store is literally "Dogging a Bullet", where the wrong color clothing puts you in the grave. "Our "War on Drugs" went the way of "No Kids Left Behind" & the "War on Poverty" & the War on Crime" & yardy, yardy, yardy. EDUCATION against drug use is a weapon in this "War" but funding for this is nil as is the funding for halfway houses. The government IMHO is very much to blame, burying the existence of drug use except when it's politically profitable. Years back during the 60's & 70's their Methadone Clinics for addicts. A lot of good that did. No education & no crime only containment. Among these 3, smoking cigarettes, alcohol & heroin, smoking is the hardest to kick then alcohol, last is heroin. Methadone is impossible to kick. The process can easily cause convulsions & death. Never saw any one ever get off meth. The chances of getting off drugs with education, therapy & help from professionals are far higher that doing it by one's self (only saw one who did it). The cost for treatment is not even a fraction of the cost it takes to repair the damage caused. Ex: my cousin was jailed for 5yrs (drug related) after his release he got sick with the fear of going back (he had already started) & came to stay with my family while he dried out. I looked for halfway houses, all kinds of programs, state agencies, 'nada' unless we could afford $8,000. I've never seen a junkie go into prison & "come out clean" Prior to his release we begged the authorities to release him to a halfway house. This wouldn't have cost much. He's so far served about 13 yrs of his present sentence (drug related) of 33 –50. That's gotta cost. Our prisons are stables (also referred to as Gladiator Schools) for drug users, the percentage of users to career criminals is staggering. The system is hell bent on punitive treatment, retribution & confinement not rehabilitation or education. The worst spike in hard drug use I ever saw was at the end of the Viet Nam war. Killers on pain. Nothing done again. I blame the government for a good portion of it's soaring use at that time & the deaths of alot of good friends & soldiers & polluting our streets with green blood. We seem to think that barring the door is the solution, nada, we're only treating the symptoms not the cause or the root of the problem, why (same way we fight the 'War on Terrorism')? The drug companies should bare some of the burden, the same as gun manufacturers that target gang bangers as a potential money source. The politicians need a good slap across the head, not on the back. The causes are as long as this country's life line. Head start programs that help poor families & single mothers with their kids while some one tries to support them is getting it's budget crunched this coming yr (remember 'no kids left behind) & that's only the small of it. The health, education, welfare & a multitude of other aid organizations are seeing their funding going & gone. Then there's another scenario that's health related, aside the drive for excitement & fear of boredom, aside from the drug becoming a best friend (sounds like a line from kicking cigarettes therapy session), aside a million other reasons. There are those that use drugs for self medication, wither or not it's physiological, neurological, emotional or physical not saying it's not their fault but had we had a health & education system instead of a "Just Say No" policy it might have improved the situation instead of letting it mushroom into a crisis (sounds the same as our AIDS treatment). We are all responsible for our neighbors & neighborhoods as our neighbors are responsible for themselves but junkies, IMHO, don't know how to be responsible, they don't know how to stay clean, they no longer care or hope & they no longer receive help & guidance. Just to turn this into a music thread. No Tomorrow For The Poor by Barry Finn Tune: Virginia Lags, Traditional Inside the ghettos dwells the greatest of crimes Where kids with no hope are serving their time Where they're shocked into feeling that life has no price They live and they die no tomorrow With no higher learning, no place they can turn They see daily the wealth from crime they can earn They're under the gun every time that they turn And we ask why they have no values Their language is foreign, their culture is strange There's slight chance for survival outside of a gang To get life from drugs beats the pain of no change There's no light at the end of their tunnel There's abuse of all kinds that runs rampage with rage And the cycle runs deeper with each passing age Until lock them away is all we can say They've been locked away all of their young lives We'll draw cheap labor from them that'll slave And watch while we help the rest into the grave Keep them from good health, good schools and good wage And hope that there isn't a backlash So now let us finish and shake hands with our fate And don't be surprised when you're a victim of hate What they've been robbed of, to you they'll relate. You'll be hunted as prey by the victim Barry Finn 1997 Goodnight & God bless everyone everywhere (Tiny Tim) |
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13 Aug 03 - 02:50 AM (#1001216) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: leprechaun Warning - sarcasm alert! What war on drugs? There is no war on drugs. There is a war on humanity by drugs. But on drugs, against drugs? No way are we waging any kind of war. War implies a commitment, a risk, a genuine effort. We don't have that. We've damn near surrendered. Drugs is winning. Drugs is winning because we ain't really putting up a fight. We're not willing to get rid of the traitors in our midst. War on drugs my ass. In 1944, if somebody in this country had been caught sending a hundred dollars a day to Adolph Hitler, he would have had his nuts yanked off at the very least. But these days, every arrogant, self-centered, party animal asshole who gets caught indulging himself with controlled substances gets to be a victim, according to all you libertines. It's only an herb. It's a victimless crime. Oh the poor dear thing, he's got low self esteem. Oh the pitiful disenfranchised victim of society, she's just self-medicating. It's the government's fault, it's the rich people's fault, it's the health care system's fault, it's our materialistic society's fault, and war is not good for children and other living things, sniff, sniff. I have known more heroin addicts, meth addicts, cocaine addicts, marijuana addicts, ecstasy addicts and alcohol addicts than all you folks together. To a person they have one trait in common. The most important thing in their lives is their own personal pleasure. More important than their health, more important than their parents, more important than their teeth, more important than their children. When they're being candid they don't call it self-medicating, they call it partying. There aren't any heroin addicts out there "just using enough to maintain." If they have enough shit to get high, that's what they're about. That self-esteem crap, the drowning the pain crap, the cry for help crap; that's all clever bullshit some defense attorney came up with to hornswoggle a jury somewhere. So you folks are gonna solve the problem by giving out free heroin? Cool. So your fourteen year old daughter decides she wants to become a heroin addict like everybody else in town; will she have to go to a doctor, or can she just go down to the Walmart and buy some off the shelf? I can see it now, "China White - ready to use in its own pre-packaged, hermetically sealed syringe...in designer colors no less!" Some of you seem to think substances shouldn't be controlled? And if everybody can have any kind of drug they want, just because they want it, what are you gonna do with all those pharmacists, kill 'em off? I suppose I should expect that kind drivel from all you potheads so have at me now. |
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13 Aug 03 - 03:28 AM (#1001221) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton The last contributers head is right up his arse...I dont see much pleasure among the addicts round here ...Just a despairing effort to haul their bodys from one day to the next..The rest of the post is an exercise in misrepresentation that Downing Street would be proud of... |
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13 Aug 03 - 11:13 AM (#1001263) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Little Hawk Well, I know I didn't contribute to it, because I was anti-drug throughout my entire adolescence and young adulthood, despite the fact that taking drugs was "in style" with most of my peers (us, those long-haired lads who all yearned to become famous musicians in the 60's and 70's). I had the long hair but was a real nonconformist when it came to recreational drugs. I've always been disinclined toward them. Ditto for smoking tobacco and for drinking to excess. I just wasn't a "party dude" in the least. It was so obviously destructive that it was child's play avoiding it, as far as I could see...I was puzzled that I was almost the only one who saw it that way. However, it's not hard for me to see that a society that teaches its young people little or nothing about spirituality (not religion, spirituality)...or morality, compassion, honour, and things like that...or what life is actually about, in other words...would end up with confused and desperate young people. This society is obsessed with materialism, instant gratification, endlessly buying things that aren't needed and don't bring happiness, disposable everything (relationships included), money, winning, competing, being lonely, having no real sense of community...being emotionally and spiritually dead. Why wouldn't people be inclined to become drug addicts when they have been starved of any real sense of self-worth or purpose in life? When they have been subtly told that they are worth NOTHING unless they have a lot of money and a shiny new car? Besides, legal addictions are everywhere. It's just a short step from those to illegal addictions. Addiction is the basis of the marketing system, which only cares to make more money by any means possible. It's ridiculous and pathetic what is going on in contemporary society, and young people are reacting to it, often in ways that are self-destructive. Do I have a solution? In my own case, yes. My own life I can handle. But the whole society? It's beyond me what to do about it at this point. No set of laws (either conservative or liberal) will be sufficient to set this mess in order. It will just slowly evolve and change, and the parts of it that are most sick will fall apart and collapse and something else will move into the vacuum that is left when that happens. Life has a way of reasserting itself...eventually. - LH |
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13 Aug 03 - 12:22 PM (#1001299) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: GUEST I've just seen this bit of news from the part of North Wales I used to live in. Leprechaun seems to suggest there is no war on drugs. I guess people must use weapons like this to carry out a trade that everyone approves of... |
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13 Aug 03 - 01:18 PM (#1001329) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow If trying to solve a problem one way just doesn't work, and it's been tried for a long enoughtime (most of the last century in this case), and it's ended up making that problem even worse, and giving rise to other problems, the sensible thing is to see if a different approach might work better. And when that doesn't happy, it's a good idea to take a good long look at the present situation, and at who it is that benefits from keeping on with the approach that has failed us so badly. |
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13 Aug 03 - 01:38 PM (#1001336) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton The biggest part of the problem is that this society dosnt really care about the addicts..The methadone program is a disgrace,just another addiction but the addicts become so depressed that they dont want to do any thing.It destroys them physically and mentally.The plus as far as the Gt are concerned is that its cheap.To prescribe and to administer.Prescribing heroin would be very expemnsive to administer but if we want this society to be here in ten years time ,we have no option. The people like Gargoyle and Leprechaun who would just let addicts kill themselves may have some kind of point, but would you want to live in a society like that..Ake. |
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13 Aug 03 - 02:13 PM (#1001359) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Little Hawk Inside every addict is a totally worthwhile human soul, a soul that once was a hopeful child, a soul that through the pressures of life has lost its compass. People look down on that because they're secretly deeply afraid of it, and their reaction to such fear is avoidance, violence, sanctioning violence by others (through the legal system), or simply comforting themselves by merely feeling inherently superior to the wretched drug addict. In the meantime you can bet they've got their own little hidden pockets of darkness, but they figure as long as those stay well enough hidden from others and from themselves...they're doing okay. I'm not that complacent. I avoided drugs because I could see that they were dangerous and bad for my health, not because I thought drug users were worthless scum who deserve to die. Akenaton is right. Mainstream society doesn't give a damn about the addicts...only about profit and convenience and outer appearances. - LH |
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13 Aug 03 - 02:53 PM (#1001384) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: jimmyt Let me be naive and jump in to this discussion. I am 55 years old, and being a musician I have been around drugs pretty much forever, and like Little Hawk, I managed by some means to never try them, except for drinking a bit too much beer in the 60s. What I am seeing now in the US and it seems to be similar in the UK is something quite different than a few people smoking a little pot. It is a large bunch of people doing extremely self-destructive drugs like cocaine and Meth. And once on this stuff, they become sort of lost members of society. They are not contributors, but pretty much become takers from society. I know it is always hard to learn from others' mistakes, but it is pretty obvious how destructive these drugs are. I can't quite see the thought process in how people blunder in to this lifestyle. Having siad that, I want to say that I am not trying to say anything inflamatory, just interested and confused in how this happens, why this happens, and what can possibly be done to correct the problem to keep others from making the same mistakes. |
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13 Aug 03 - 03:25 PM (#1001406) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow Yes indeed, they are very bad for you - but as I see it is the attempt to stop it by prohibition has been the major reason why this situation has developed. All it's done has been to ensure that it is possible to make enormous amounts of money by supplying illegal drugs. If the drugs didn't do much harm to the user - and for most people who use cannabis that's probably at least as true as it for for alcohol, probably more so - it'd just be a civil liberties issue, a nuisance, but not at the top of the agenda. But when we are talking about drugs and patterns ofd drug use which are likely to do a lot of harm, directly and indorectly, it's a lot more serious. Ending a phony "war on drugs" which serves to ensure the maximum amount of danage to individuals and to society becomes a very high priority indeed. |
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13 Aug 03 - 03:42 PM (#1001419) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: jimmyt So, McGrath, are you then saying that legalizing drugs would undermine the profit potential, thus effectively eliminating the suppliers as the profits would be gone? I might see the logic in this to Cannibis, but would it be effective in dealing with these horrible drugs that are so destructive as well? |
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13 Aug 03 - 04:00 PM (#1001438) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton Legalising herion and cocain, on their own would not be enough . It would also require a massive social progam ,including weaning the addicts off drugs and giving information about alternative lifestyles.As many stratas of society as possible should be involved. this would of course cause resentment in sections of non-drug takers due to the cost and that would need to be dealt with. Expensive ...but I believe very nessesary.. Of all the messages on this thread I was most touched by the words of John of Hull,he had a lesson for us all... Ake.. |
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13 Aug 03 - 04:50 PM (#1001471) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow Essentially that's what I'm saying, jimmyt. A system where possession for use was legal, and where supplies could be obtained from legal sources, for a price reflecting the actual cost, which would be relatively low. Obviously it wouldn't solve all the problems, but it would make it possible to set about solving them. There wouldn't be people poisoning themselves with the additives dealers cut their stuff with, and the accidental overdoses where someone gets a supply of stuff that is a lot less dilute than they are used to. And since the prices wouldn't be inflated, the pressure to raise money to pay for a habit would be lower, and that could make it safer for everyone else to walk the streets. Alcoholism , and the self-destruction and damage to others involved, is a terrible thing. But generally speaking prohibition as a way of eliminating it doesn't have a good track record. |
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13 Aug 03 - 05:26 PM (#1001493) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Amos There is obviously a pricepoint for a legal drug where it acts as a disincentive, especially if it is combined with a good PR campaign. The US's anti-smoking campaign seems to be working, for example because of the combination of scare ads, tax-hikes and smug intelligence add up to make it reaslly attractive to quit smoking. If horse was legal but was gradually taxed heavier and heavier and made the brunt of a lot of smartass ads, it would get very unattractive. There would have to be some medical withdrawal-support centers of some kind, but thats what the taxes would be for , instead of letting that surplus dough go to illegal drug dealers! A |
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13 Aug 03 - 10:23 PM (#1001643) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow "There is obviously a pricepoint for a legal drug where it acts as a disincentive" True - but at the same time there's another incentive involved to find ways of dodging the tax. You get moonshiners and home growers. There's a ceiling on how much tax you can put on things like that. I think the most effective anti-smoking ads I've seen have been the ones emphasising the fact that smelling like that can really put off people you fancy, who might otherwise fancy you. That's hitting people where it hurts. At 20 years old fear of rejection and humiliation is likely to be a lot stronger as a motivating force than fear of getting cancer in twenty years time. |
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13 Aug 03 - 11:20 PM (#1001667) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Sorcha I haven't read all of this, but I tend to agree that prohibition encourages drug abuse. Most of you know that I am married to a cop and he tends to agree. Prohibition is silly; Rx drug addiction has to be partly the Doctor's fault. If a patient has multiple Dr's they should check with each other, but they don't. Marijuana is especially innocuous as a Societal Danger.......giggle, get horny, go to sleep. Hash, about the same. Meth, crack, coke......not same. Big H is a big time mess........legal seems to be one solution. My daughter swears that the US Gov't is possibly behind most of the large drug rings.......so they can make more money off both sales and busts. I have no clue about that idea. |
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14 Aug 03 - 12:29 AM (#1001689) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Little Hawk Plenty of good ideas here. I also think that legalizing drugs and regulating the sale of them is far more effective than keeping them illegal. There is an enormously influential (and unofficial) lobby to keep them illegal, funded by...guess who...the organized crime syndicates who profit hugely from pushing illegal drugs! If you made cigarettes illegal it would really get wild out there, and organized crime would have a new cash cow to exploit and more blood would flow just like it did during prohibition when alcohol was illegal in the USA. It doesn't work to make popular drugs illegal (except for criminals it works, providing them with a livelihood). It does work to regulate drugs, tax them, and gradually make them less and less attractive in the minds of the public, as is being done with cigarettes. But there are other root causes of this malady too...and I would suggest that poverty is number 1!!! Until something serious is done to eliminate that, you will see plenty of street crime. Desperate, hopeless people turn to desperate measures. A kid who grows up in a ghetto will already have been brutalized in so many ways by the time he reaches sixteen that he is very likely to do what he sees others doing all around him and turn to crime. For him, that's normal survival tactics. That's what has to be changed. It's not just a question of drugs. For an eye-opener, read Rubin Carter's autobiography "The 16th Round" and ask yourself what the chances would be of growing up where he did and NOT getting in trouble with the law. For young men, almost zero. And it's not because those kids were born stupid or bad...it's because they were born into a very bad situation. No one in government has had the guts...or at least the vision...to take that one on and really do something about it. It's easier (and more profitable for certain people) to just build more prisons and employ more cops, right? Sad. - LH |
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14 Aug 03 - 02:36 AM (#1001704) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Barry Finn EDUCATION & HOPE are the best tools against drug use & it doesn't cost much in compared to the tab in the long run. "I have known more heroin addicts, meth addicts, cocaine addicts, marijuana addicts, ecstasy addicts and alcohol addicts than all you folks together" Big deal (are you trying to pull rank?) but I doubt it very much.You are right Leprechaun, you are right about drugs being the most important thing in a junkie's life. DUH, don't ya think that's part of the problem. A junkie no longer has a life unless they find help from somewhere (Lou Reed's song Heroin, "it's my wife, it's my life"). Slash, Budget, Slash. Let them overdose, why? 'Puke'. For some it is self medicating, for, hell there's a million reasons but I'll tell you what, "It's No Party". I'm sure that no junkie as a kid aspired to being an addict when they got older & looked foward to partying in some deathly cellar & rejoicing in the finer arts & techniques enjoyed in the shooting gallery. Overdosing is a strange phenomenon. It takes larger & larger quantities for the junkie to reach nirvana. Nirvana is another strange place. It's where they go to rid them of their selves, to block out what they are & who've they become. They know better than any what a sickly site they've become, & there's not a damn thing most of them can do about it. The overdose finally gets them to where they want to be, either on purpose or by accident it don't matter to them. I never knew of one junkie who wanted to stay where they were (they may not care but they still don't want to be there). Most I knew have tried multiple times to get straight, it's only a few that are lucky enough to live & even less that go on to far better life. Little Hawk's dead right about "Inside every addict is a totally worthwhile human soul, a soul that once was a hopeful child. Most that I knew & grew up with started as decent people, didn't know many that were black hearted from jump street but I do think that it's different now because of the war zones that some of these kids grow up in & the trauma that they have to survive. Poverty is a breeding ground for drugs, the worse things are the more need to escape (same as gambling or drinking). Hell, you can even judge the economy by watching the rise in the cost of it & no matter what the addict will pay, what ever the price. So all the help in the world won't mean a damn thing with out education, therapy at least some glimmer of hope at the end of their tunnels. Barry |
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14 Aug 03 - 11:17 AM (#1001933) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: wilco The original question was, "Do we bear any responsibility?" YES. I've worked with youngsters with drug problems (including alcohol) since 1968. I've had thousands of kids in counseling. Thirty years ago, the conversations would go like this: Parent to child: "Why are you using this stuff" (Marijuana, speed, etc.) Child to parent: " You do the same thing with alcohol. Your generation's drug of choice is alcohol. Mine is _________." Fast forward, and now the drugs are crack or heroin for the kids. And, the parents drugs are marijuana and cocaine. This drug epidemic lies squarely on the shouldres of the previous generations drug usage. They have wrecked our civilization. |
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14 Aug 03 - 03:32 PM (#1002143) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: alanabit For a fraction of the money wasted on trying to enforce unenforceable laws, we can supply drugs to all those who are dependent. Drugs from a chemist are pure and in measurable doses. All that the present drug laws have achieved is to to keep the price of illegal drugs high. This guarantees a high price for the criminal and misery for the victim. There is no greater threat to large scale drug criminals than the availability of cheap, clean drugs to those who need them. All attempts to legislate for morality have proved disastrous. Moral distaste always was a very poor guide to making law. I can very well understand people's revulsion of gambling, prostitution and boxing. Trying to drive them away through legislation has never achieved anything other than to hand the entire profits of those industries over to criminals. |
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14 Aug 03 - 04:05 PM (#1002163) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton I am in favour of legalisation and the ending of the black market with all its horrors,but surely the idea is to get the addicts off drugs and give them a life again.As iv said before this will require a massive social program costing millions and taking a long period of time for most addicts...Dont give people the idea that it will be easy or cheap....Just handing out heroin is NOT enough... |
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14 Aug 03 - 04:29 PM (#1002181) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: alanabit Of course it is not. However, ending the criminals' near monopoly of supplying to desperately ill people can cut the crimes of both drug supply (by making it unprofitable) and secondary crime (by making it unnecessary) at a stroke. We are all responsible for the extent of drug crime if we enact laws which exacerbate a social problem. We can't take away the individual choice to take or not to take drugs. We are not to blame for that. My father chose to kill himself with alcohol last May and nobody could have prevented him from doing so. I would have liked to have prevented my father's death - just as I would like to have prevented the deaths of many of my friends in the busking world who went down to drink and drugs. We can offer treatment and support, but we can't force anyone to accept it. I do not like the choices they made. I have to respect them. |
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15 Aug 03 - 05:29 AM (#1002534) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: leprechaun I'll have to call horseshit on your legalization idea. There are plenty of people out there who have used drugs for years without ever coming close to getting caught. For them, drugs might as well be legal. But guess what. Drug use still destroys their lives, and negatiely impacts the lives of everybody around them. Of the drugs you're talking about, only a few of them are completely illegal. Cocaine, narcotics and amphetamines are legal under supervision and in the proper context. Substances are controlled based on their danger to humans and their potential for abuse. They have to be controlled because they work so well. You all-knowing social engineers are going to take those controls away and substitute what? A free market system? Or make the government dispense drugs to anybody who wants them? Even treatment professionals don't think drugs should be legalized. You think treatment will work without sanctions? If you believe that, you probably believe people go to prison for simple possession. There might be fewer addicts out there when enablers like y'all quit telling them they're victims, and it isn't their fault, and drugs should be legal. You're just validating the party attitudes that get them started in the first place. And at what age are you going to make these legal drugs available? If you think prohibition hasn't worked, wait till you try deregulation. |
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15 Aug 03 - 06:33 AM (#1002573) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow Noone is denying that drug use can destroy lives and hurt the people around the drug users, or even that some kind of controls are appropriate. But the present system of "controls" in many countries (including the USA and the UK for a start) don't work at all well and have some terrible effects, and make the impact of drugs on society and on people far worse than it need be. "...take those controls away and substitute what? A free market system?" In effect a kind of "free market system" is what we've got, and it's poison. A community controlled supply system, with no profit going to the drug barons and with quality control - that would be a far more effect "control" than what we have at present. "You think treatment will work without sanctions" - all the evidence I have seen is that treatment only has a realistic chance of working when it is voluntary. As for "at what age are you going to make these legal drugs available", the same kind of approach would be relevant here as with legal drugs such as alcohol. Imperfect, and there'd be problems with undereage dealing, as there is with alcohol. But there wouldn't be a multi-billion dollar industry selling and promoting addiction. First thing to do when you are stuck in a hole is stop digging. |
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15 Aug 03 - 07:28 AM (#1002599) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: alanabit Being a bit semantic here Kevin, but I would argue that what we have at present isn't even a free market system. Those who would like to supply cheap, clean drugs are not even in the market place. We have effectively caused only the least scrupulous dealers to be on the market! In actual fact Leprechaun, there was a time at the beginning of the last century when even the most dangerous drugs were available to those very few people who wanted them. Sherlock Holmes first act in The Sign of Four was shooting up coke - and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle - a practising doctor - must have known the legal status of this very well. Drug use - or rather abuse - rose alarmingly when it became part of a counterculture which was exploited by ruthless criminals who saw it as a chance to make huge profits. In Italy, the Mafia have actually assassinated politicians who have called from drug law reform. I think they understand the economics of the drugs market very well! |
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15 Aug 03 - 07:32 AM (#1002604) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: alanabit I should add Leprechaun, in cases you misunderstood me, that I still favour very severe penalties for those who deal illegally in hard drugs. It is just that when sense does eventually prevail - it will become inevitable - this sort of law enforcement will become unnecessary. The drug barons (and I think they are bastards too) will be out of business as soon as junkies don't need them. |
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15 Aug 03 - 09:13 PM (#1003010) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: leprechaun And drugs were illegal for forty years before they exploded in popularity (and profitability) in the sixties and seventies. Somebody's at fault for that, and if it was directly correlated with prohibition, why didn't it happen forty years sooner? Who's digging the hole? I say it's the libertines who preach that nobody has to be responsible for their own actions unless they're rich, or belong to the wrong political party. I lay the blame for this pandemic on the nihilist party animals in Hollywood who are shoving their hedonist agenda down our children's throats. I just don't see how you're going to make drugs legally available to anybody who wants them for the fun of it, and still keep drug abusers marginalized, as they should be. I think the users, especially the proselytizing ones, are evil. A few posts ago amenhotep, perhaps confusing me with a gargoyle or guest, suggested I want to kill them. I don't want to kill them. I just don't want them around my children. Hell, I don't even want them around their own children. I don't want them renting the house next door. I don't want them working on my car, or my wood stove, or my computer. I don't want them on the road, I don't want them to even have a license to drive. A drug abuser might have been somebody's darling baby at one time, but once they decide to be a doper they throw their conscience away. |
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16 Aug 03 - 04:04 AM (#1003109) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: alanabit Oddly enough, Leprechaun, your first assertion would support my view that people's tendency to try or not to try drugs has very little to do with their legal status. I would wish to see the supply of dangerous drugs outside pharmacies remain as illegal as it is now. My main problem with the current disaster is that this sort of prohibition effectively guarantees very high profits for criminals. This gives them a very clear motive for encouraging drug abuse. I keep a healthy distance from junkies - which I think has been a good move in nearly a quarter of a century of busking. I do regard them as unreliable and weak. However, once they have their required dose of H, they are no danger to anyone. Instead of moralising about how they ought to live their lives, it is far cheaper, easier and safer to let them have it. Ten legal doses cost a lot less than investigating even one break in. The current status quo doesn't make any economic sense either - except to the criminal. Marginalising junkies expressly prevents them from taking part in our society so that they can earn enough money to to tend to their needs or gain any perspective to aid their recovery. It is an expression of society's outrage - not a serious attempt to alleviate the problem. The commonest form of drug addict - by far - is the person who suffers from temporary mental illness/hypertension/depression or the like. This person is prescribed anti-depressants by their own doctor and the dependency can last for years. I should also add that it can be extremely dangerous to come off anti-depressants without strict medical supervision. These people don't fit into your profile of "drug addict" do they? They are certainly less alarming to sit next to on the bus! They do not need to break into buildings/sell drugs to others/beg/steal etc to procure their supplies. If our normal human compassion (quite rightly) extends to these people, why should we withdraw it so cruelly from crack and heroin addicts? |
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16 Aug 03 - 08:07 AM (#1003157) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow So far as I can see there are lots of drug users - illegal drug users I mean - who are far from marginalised, in all kinds of important jobs in commerce,politics, media... However since they are rich they can pay for their habit out of their inflated salaries, so it doesn't give rise to the secondary problems. And drugs were illegal for forty years before they exploded in popularity (and profitability) in the sixties and seventies. Interesting question, but I suspect that the reasons for this lie in other factors, mostly the recognition by the increasingly knowledgeable crime bosses that there was a potential source of profit here, tied up with there being more money around. I think that statistical charts would some a very similar pattern of growth in all kinds of other things around the same time period. |
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16 Aug 03 - 10:50 AM (#1003198) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: leprechaun I had a whole 'nother response typed out but my computer ate it. Hopefully it won't magically appear and duplicate this one. amenhotep started this thread with the question, Are we to blame? In the movie, Blow, about the fellow who thinks he got the cocaine epidemic started, the protagonist says, "When actors and musicians accept it, the rest of the people will follow." That's where the epidemic comes from, and the Mafia is just responding to it. I'm all for unmarginalizing addicts, once they stop using drugs. But I don't think you're doing them any favors by telling them it's not their fault. I'm curious about the mechanism for making all these drugs legal, cheap, and available for anybody who wants them. Most doctors prescribe drugs for people who do something to earn the right to use them, like by getting injured or sick. Some of them doctors might be loath to prescribe powerful drugs to somebody who just wants to try them for the fun of it. Are doctors just supposed to eat the liability they face after prescribing recreational drugs to people, just because they want them? In alanbit's heroin scenario, the junkie is supposedly no threat once he gets his fix. So you wouldn't mind being next to a heroin junkie. Well, how about a tweaking meth freak? Or somebody whacked out on LSD? Or some new analog that turns them into raging psychopaths. Or something like ecstasy that slowly destroys their brains. Drugs work, they alter people significantly. That's why they're controlled. That's why doctors administer them; to counteract the effects of some condition deemed more detrimental than the effects of the drug. |
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16 Aug 03 - 01:47 PM (#1003251) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow Not much fun being next to a raging drunk either, or a alcoholic wreck. If someone is acting in a way that endangers or disturbs others that can be a valid reason for the authorities to move in on them. Whether that is because they are raging drunk or on some other drug they can't handle isn't immediately relevant, it's the problem behaviour that needs to be tackled. There have always been large numbers of doctors for example who have had illegal drug habits, but they have had ready access to uncontaminated supplies, and they haven't got into the druggie lifestyle. Many of us have been treeated by them, and we don't know it, and there's no reason we are ever likely to find out. There are no perfect solutions to this. The fact that alcohol is legal doesn't stop some people screwing up their lives and the lives of others. But living with thgat is a lot better than the alternative of extending the "war on drugs" to include alcoholic drinks. |
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16 Aug 03 - 02:16 PM (#1003258) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Deckman Doggone it Littlehawk there you and I go again, agreeing with each other! Bob |
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16 Aug 03 - 03:07 PM (#1003271) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: Celtic-End Singer I'm certainly not to blame but the collective stupid politician/moral minority/anti-libertarian/brainless masses coalition certaily is. The so-called "war on drugs" is the problem. If there is 100 tonnes of smack on the street and the police or customs or whoever confiscate 50% of it, there is 50 tonnes left. The laws of economics dictate that the remaining 50 tonnes will double in value or more. The failed attempt at enforced prohibition of narcotics increases the unit price, this actually encourages more criminal entrepreneurs to enter the business and also encourages the violence and acquisitive crime such as muggings, car theft and burglary which finance the whole thing. Furthermore, the harsher the sentences for dealers and smugglers the higher the potential risks, so consequently they will charge more for their services and product. The "war on drugs" as it is presently constituted cannot succeed, each "victory" be it a drug haul, customs stop, prison sentence actually drives the problem on. The only way to manage the drugs economy is for state control of it to introduced, regulating both the purity of the substances concerned as well as the cost and availability. It may even be necessary to subsidise the cost to keep the gangsters out of the economy. Prohibition of an economy doesn't work, never has, never will. And by the way education doesn't work either, you cannot rationalise people out of irrational behaviours. Taking drugs is an irrational risk-taking behaviour, you can't think people out of it. All you can do is provide treatment for the addicts. The alternative solution is for governments to develope less dangerous mind-altering substances to provide a lower-risk or lower-addiction alternative. Don't forget, opium addiction was rife in Victorian Britain right up until the 20's when the introduction of aspirin eliminated the path to addiction travelled by those seeking pain relief. |
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16 Aug 03 - 05:35 PM (#1003322) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: GUEST Im getting a bit pissed off with Mudcat . Any meaningfull discussion soon develops into a pointless battle between left and right. What does it matter if this problem was caused by a "bunch of hippie,commies", or Thacher and Reagan with their greedy materialism. What I see is a large number of our young people living in misery and a larger number of our generation walking past on the other side of the road saying its nothing to do with me. As a society we must surely put our political differences aside,think of the damage being done to our children and work to find a solution I cant understand the amount of energy you people spend supporting your political beliefs,I long ago realised, that all political parties and systems are corrupt and not worthy of support. They are simply a means of control and manipulation...Ake |
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16 Aug 03 - 05:57 PM (#1003331) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: alanabit Guest, I don't think that is the way the discussion has been developing. There are those who believe that drug problems in society are caused by a lack of moral standards. They would like to see those standards and values reinstituted. Others of us take the view that while individual drug taking is a matter of personal responsibility, society's response to large scale drug abuse cannot be based on imposing moral values. I think we are little more sophisticated than the way you describe us. |
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16 Aug 03 - 06:05 PM (#1003333) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton A bit too sophisticated for our own good perhaps? |
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16 Aug 03 - 06:06 PM (#1003334) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: annamill You live in a small town? Far away from any big city? Someone is bringing it in. I suggest going to a town meeting and bring up this problem. Question the cops in your town. "What's going down??" They should question the kids. Where are they getting it? It has always amazed me how easy it is to find this crap on the street but somehow the cops can't find it. Amazing, huh? In NY just ask any little old lady who selling and they'll know, but not the cops. How come? Sorry, I'm over expanding.. You might be able to start a new cleanup project in your town. If the kids are going into the city for it, THEN you talk to their parents. Woman should rule the world. It's seems so easy to us somehow ;-) **BG** Love, Annamill I know I'm making it too easy and there are probably extenuating circumstances (I love that phrase) but there must be somewhere we, not just you, can start. |
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16 Aug 03 - 06:39 PM (#1003344) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow There are those who believe that drug problems in society are caused by a lack of moral standards. They would like to see those standards and values reinstituted. Others of us take the view that while individual drug taking is a matter of personal responsibility, society's response to large scale drug abuse cannot be based on imposing moral values. And I'd agree with both those positions. I make a distinction between what I understand by "reinstituting moral values" and "reimposing moral values". The very concept of "moral values" as I've always understood them is that they are founded on freewill. And the "lack of moral standards" goes right to the top, or maybe it starts from the very top. More especially the selfishness and greed and materialism irresponsible use of power which are among the root causes of the breakdown in the lower depths which makes itself visible in things like the abuse of drugs. I don't actually think the divide is actually particularly left versus right. |
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16 Aug 03 - 07:27 PM (#1003354) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton McGrath...I suppose your making the same point as Dylan "theres no right wing and left wing ...Just up wing and down wing" |
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16 Aug 03 - 07:48 PM (#1003362) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow Not quite. I think there is left and right, but that's only relates to some issues. If we try to swueeze all the other issues into that left-right spectrum it just gets confusing, and the drugs disagreements is very much about things that don't fit into tta spectrum. You get libertarian lefties and libertarian righties, and authoritarian righties and authoritarian lefties. And you get moralistic attutudes and antii-moralistic attitudes, and either of them can go along with liberartian or with authoritarian views, and be left or riught or anythingin between. Disagreemewnts aren't just one-dimensional for all that people constantly try to make out that they are. (I'd describe myself as a moralistic left-wing libertarian.) |
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16 Aug 03 - 08:44 PM (#1003396) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: akenaton Friends... Iv just read in my local paper some news about a drug which is to take the place of Methadone ,as a Heroin sub...Its called Subutex. Has any one any info on this drug,I think its been used for some time in France....Best wishes Ake.... |
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17 Aug 03 - 08:16 AM (#1003552) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: McGrath of Harlow Well I understand that Methadone is actually more dangerous than Heroin, and more addictive, making it a pretty lousy substitute for it. Subutex would have to pretty useless to be anything but an improvement on that. Which of course could well be the case. |
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17 Aug 03 - 08:27 AM (#1003553) Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame? From: alanabit I couldn't agree with you more Kevin. With no disrespect intended to Leprechaun's views, I do not see the need to make any further reply. All the things I would wish to say either appear in the posts of other contributers or my own previous posts. Akenaton, I am broadly in agreement with you. The discussion you initiated with the question, "Are we to blame?" really (I believe) has to address two basic questions. I think we have to distinguish between individual responsibility for personal choice and collective responsibility for society's response. In short - I think we are not to blame for individual choice to abuse drugs. I think we are responsible for society's response. Kevin and others have eruditely made this distinction. I don't think that is being too sophisticated. It is not a problem which is going to be solved by slogans! |