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24 Aug 98 - 06:06 PM (#35856) Subject: COURAGE II From: Chet W. I don't know if it's in my power, but every once in a while somebody expresses an idea so clearly and elegantly that it cannot be ignored. Would we with our banjos and dulcimers be willing or able to produce, if we could, songs with that kind of appeal and enough deference to popular culture that it would sell (become widely heard), or is it too late for that? I think the thing that attracts many of us to folk music is its gentle nature, and gentleness is definitely out of the national character these days. Would the little movement around such bands as the Squirrel Nut Zippers give us a way in? Will it have to wait until there's a big disaster to comment upon, as Lincoln did at Gettysburg? I like the idea but it looks at first as if it would have to be a rather small movement or there would have to be some concession to what is widely listened to now. Maybe it would take a movie about something unifying with a soundtrack by people who don't like violence. Soundtracks are big these days. And who will write it? Maybe something by Steinbeck; maybe one of us. Something else to think about - creating a masterpiece. Ideas, we need ideas! Chet W. |
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24 Aug 98 - 09:48 PM (#35884) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: BSeed Chet--Good man! Here we are back at the top (but I noticed that there still people posting to the bottom of the old one; I hope they read your note, too). I just finished reading Caleb Carr's The Angel of Darkness, sequel to The Alienist. New York City, in the 1890s, if we are to believe Carr, was far more like cities now than we are accustomed to thinking: drug crazed gangs defend their turfs much as the Crips and the Bloods do in LA, and not only are the gangs destroying their members and their communities, but they are drawing wannabes from the middle class, as well. There is, of course, no rap (the only music that is a part of the story is the soothing piano played by one of the alienist's "associates"). And, of course, there are no drive-by shootings: there were as yet no automobiles, the gangs fought mostly with clubs and knives--guns, and particularly automatic weapons--not being nearly as readily available as today. The police forces were less competent and more corrupt than we like to think they are today, and there was, of course, the vast contrast between the rich and the poor that is becoming more and more an endemic condition of our society. Another important difference, of course, is television--which emphasizes the difference between dreams and realities. I'm gonna continue this later: I have a jam group meeting tonight and I gotta go. --seed |
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24 Aug 98 - 11:33 PM (#35894) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Barry Finn Hi Chet & Seed, new thread, couldn't help myself. There were songs of the New York City gangs, The "Great Police Fight" about the State Legislature abolishing the city police dept & installing a new Municipal Police because of the corruption & the "Dead Rabbits Fight with the Bowery Boys" a 2 day gangwar where the police were outguned & numbered untill the militia finially ended it. Of course these are folk songs of NYC & not of the gangs. Just after the turn of the century these gangs began to coexist, laying the foundation of the modern day Crime Syndicate. Arnold Rothstien was the catalist & organizer, the man who fixed the 1919 world series Black Sox scandal, he was Charles Salvador "Lucky" Lucaino (sp?) first inspirational teacher. Charlie (who went on to be the figurehead or CEO of crime) buddied up then with the Bugs & Meyer gang (Bugsy Segal & Meyer Lansky, Meyer who went on to become Comptroller & financial wizard of the Company), the Elder Statesman "3 Fingers Brown" became council to all & was Charlie's mentor. These men started young, were very intelligent, ruthless & looked towards their future. They were professionals who were proud of what they did & good at it to boot, family men for the most part. When they joined forces with the goverment they went corporate & legitimized their image, doing away with the vicious hotheads, Bugsy, Maddog Coll, the Dutchman, Big Al, they used the new legal arm, Murder Inc. & took control of the garment industry then the docks which eventually lead to the use of the Maifia to control the waterfronts of the north eastern seaboard durning WWII & paved the way for the Allies to enter Italy & set up crime lords in their major cities. OK, enough, they had the hopes & dreams of those of their times (although very different ways of procuring them), on the whole they were intelligent with a twisted sense of foresight, had hope, they had the blessing & backing of politicians & goverment, organization & finacial wealth & they didn't hate, it was just a job. Today your average gangs lack some of this but the national groups & posses lack not the brains but the education. They all lack pride, professionalism, foresight but they have the hate & the intelligent amoung them will rise to the top, again to be the rabid dogs they are & will turn to bite us. Offering hope & education is the way out for those of us that have to live with this. These kids may not know their history but they sure can sense what happens around them. Barry |
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25 Aug 98 - 04:40 PM (#35959) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: BSeed Maybe I should make the statement now: This thread is a continuation of the thread Has anyone the courage now? So if you wonder what the discussion is about, and you have an hour or so to waste, check out the original. --seed |
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25 Aug 98 - 05:45 PM (#35962) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: The Shambles Please see my comments at the bottom of what is now Courage I. I felt a lot better for writing it but I don't want to write it all againg. To go back to the topic though, I don't know if writing and peforming songs on subjects that you care about and in the hope that it might make a difference can be called courage. In my case it's about the only thing I can do and even if I wanted to stop I don't think I could. I don't think that Woody and the rest were totally selfless in the things they did. Wouldn't he have loved this Internet 'thingy' though, trouble is no one else would have been able to get on. Maybe there will be a I.S.P. doing business up there soon. Sail on: Rog. |
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25 Aug 98 - 08:21 PM (#35974) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: BSeed Rog, This thread is called COURAGE just because it is a continuation of the previous thread, which started off wondering if anyone had the courage to challenge the copyright laws to publish and produce political music the coopyright holders weren't getting out to the public. It just evolved into the current subject matter, which is more "the world is all screwed up, and is there anything we folksingers [all of us apparently toting a heavy Messiah complex] can do about it?" All of us grew up hearing Woodie Guthrie and Pete Seeger and Tom Paxton and Phil Ochs and were moved by what they wrote and sang and wanted to be like them and inspire people to hit the streets for peace and justice... By the way, early in that thread we listed a bunch of singers who were still trying to get the message out, and something I said above made me think of John Prine. Did anybody ever write a funnier, more succint anti-war song than his "Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore"? His "Illegal Smile" is one of the best dope songs, and needs to be revived in California were there is a struggle to protect and implement a recently passed initiative which legalized medical marijuana. Rambling again, and still leaving unfinished my first posting to this web.--seed |
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25 Aug 98 - 08:24 PM (#35975) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. Good points, all. It's true that my students (incarcerated juveniles) have no hope or sense of purpose for the future other than the acquisition of things (which is of course what the gangsta "culture" is all about). One of my students presented me with a picture he had drawn of gangsta martyr Tupac Shakur. Every piece of clothing he had on, from socks and shoes to sweat suit to head band had the Nike symbol on it. The message was pretty clear. Our school, like many across America, are inititating programs called character education. It may be a good idea but it makes me uncomfortable. One of our officers put it well when he asked at a meeting "What if I'm a theif, and the school is teaching my kid that stealing indicates poor character. They're teaching him to have no respect for me." An ironic twist, but a good point. I'm uncomfortable with posters all around me exhorting all of us to be compassionate, patriotic, honest, etc. It seems like a communist red pioneers clubhouse. I guess my point is that character education is one more job that belongs to parents that schools are trying to do because the parents didn't or wouldn't. I was talking today with my friend and department head, and we got around to this: "What are schools for anyway?" We decided that they were not here to produce better assembly line workers. Rather, to inspire (when we're lucky) the joy that comes just from using your mind and the intense pleasure when it connects you to something great. I am a biology teacher, and I remember getting this feeling in a big way on a trip to Czechoslovakia (now the Czech Republic) when I visited the garden of Gregor Mendel, father of modern genetics. It was breathtaking, and it wouldn't have happened if I had not made the place in my mind for that experience years before. Maybe that's what we should do: Help students make places in their minds for great experiences when they come around. Sounds like the beginning of an idea. Maybe just rambling. It's been a long couple of weeks at work. Write back! Chet W. |
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25 Aug 98 - 09:04 PM (#35978) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: northfolk Messianic? or just messy? Many of us wrote to kind of "frame the issue". Pete and Woodie didn't effect great change either, but contributed to a sense of awareness and identity within some times of substantial political movement. In actuallity much of it backwards (McCarthy's heyday) Since that time it has taken a degree of bravery to utter any leftist idea. I liked the comments about Tupac Shakur wearing all the Nike merchandise. Could all that brand identity be sold without TV? I did read a fairly encouraging puff piece in the Sunday Magazine about a Rap Singer named L L Cool J, that led us to believe that he had made a change in his life and was openly discussing the mistakes he made.... Where there is life there is hope. |
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26 Aug 98 - 06:01 AM (#35995) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: The Shambles The piont made about sporting all that Nike gear reminded me of a conversation overheard in the street of a very small West Country town in the middle of nowhere. It was between two boys, about 8 years old. They were clad in all the same gear and the conversation went somthing like this; "why do they (an English football team) wear Umbro on their shorts? Well' it's because they are not well known enough to have Nike and they were offered more money." I wondered then how long it would be before the fans forgot about the teams they support and just supported the sponsers instead? |
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26 Aug 98 - 06:36 PM (#36036) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. Northfolk, pleeeeease give me a reference for the article you read, the interview with LL Cool J. I think I need it badly. You know, I do occasionally feel messianic, but only because I'm in the midst of so much nuttiness (specifically, education administrators). To make one comment that makes sense among them is to create intense confusion. Chet W. |
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26 Aug 98 - 07:30 PM (#36046) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Jenny Chet ... the article was in last Sunday's "Parade" Magazine and it was an excellent article. If you have access to a fax machine, email me the number to jtalton@talweb.com and I will fax to you tomorrow or the next day. I will check my email later. jenny |
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27 Aug 98 - 06:02 PM (#36155) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. Jenny, Thanks. I don't have a fax machine at home. I'll try to get a copy of the magazine from somebody here. I may call back for your help. Chet W. |
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27 Aug 98 - 08:36 PM (#36171) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Jenny Chet ... if you can't find article, email me your snail mail address and I will send via us post. jenny |
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27 Aug 98 - 10:08 PM (#36182) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: northfolk Jenny, thanks for jumping in and helping Chet. My mag. is already in the recycling bin. |
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28 Aug 98 - 06:34 AM (#36218) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Bob Schwarer I should have a couple around here if anyone wants one. Bob S phidea@cris.com |
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28 Aug 98 - 05:50 PM (#36279) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. Thanks everybody. I was able to get one today, the newstand still had last sunday's paper. I'll report back after I read it. What a pleasure to correspond with such thoughtful folks. Chet W. |
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29 Aug 98 - 04:17 PM (#36382) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: The Shambles Just like to put a plug in here for my hero, Dick Gaughan, who has his own excellent website, which you can find a link to from here. It contains lots of info and the words and (some) music for the songs he sings. Check out 'Different kind of love songs', it just about says it all. |
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30 Aug 98 - 05:40 PM (#36481) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. Just read the article, referred to above,in which rapper LL Cool J was interviewed. I'll have to say that I was thoroughly unimpressed. The story of his childhood was indeed horrible; If only we could bring that father and stepfather to justice. But the fact is that the vast majority of people who have disadvantaged or abusive childhoods do not resolve it by engaging in violence against others. Even fewer make a career out of inspiring young people to violence. If the picture of him performing earlier this year was accurate, he still shows gang sign (the one rolled-up pant leg) when he performs, and he continues to make extremely violent movies. He never said he was sorry or expressed regret, except inasmuch as it appplied to his own life. Selfish? I don't know. It makes me think of all the former Russian communists who are now ready to be healers and bridges from east to west (rot in hell, Vladimir Posner). Sometimes saying you're sorry, or even being sorry, is just not enough. Chet W. |
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30 Aug 98 - 06:01 PM (#36484) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: BSeed My reaction exactly, Chet. Nowhere in the article is there any indication of any real rejection of the lifestyle. --seed |
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30 Aug 98 - 10:02 PM (#36510) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. In a way it's proof of what I've been saying all along (the interview with LL Cool J). Violence may have vented his rage, but it also made him rich and he's not about to abandon it now. The part of popular culture that includes gangsta rap is the ultimate corporatization of our children's lives, and it gives not one shit how many of them die, as long as the money keeps pouring in. I'll die for freedom of speech, but this is not it. Chet W. |
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31 Aug 98 - 08:46 PM (#36641) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: The Shambles Don't take this wrong but lighten up. |
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31 Aug 98 - 09:21 PM (#36645) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Big Mick Hate to say it Shambles, but the last thing that Chet and Seed need to do is lighten up. When you have been exposed to the damage that the glorification of this type of music (?) does, you realize that it is time to call it for what it is, exploitation of our young people. Mick |
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31 Aug 98 - 09:55 PM (#36650) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Jenny Chet ... I like to think I've grown into the type of woman who can look at another side of a situation. I reread the LL Cool J article, from your standpoint, and have to admit I agree with you. Thanks for your viewpoint and the insight. Us "direct" individuals are not very appreciated because we often make waves and rock the boat. I've gotten myself into very hot water on more than a few occasions due to this side of my personality. What never ceases to amaze me is that a group of people will discuss a subject, vehemently, but when it comes time to be accountable, no one speaks up. I'm the one who does and it lands me in trouble most of the time. So ... I do appreciate your directness, even if we don't always agree, because of the courage it takes. Jenny |
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01 Sep 98 - 01:56 AM (#36661) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: BSeed Chet, here's another "yeah, but..." posting: One theme I was going to develop early in this thread (I started but had to quit and go make music) was that the rappers just reflect the corporations in this country and this world: Gangstas may practice more overt violence on the streets they inhabit, but the corporations (and the governments they own--including our own) are guilty of far more violence and are as little committed to the good of society, and with far less excuse: they aren't coming from a background of poverty and despair. --seed |
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02 Sep 98 - 01:35 AM (#36776) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: BSeed Continuing my screed from above, I guess this, Chet, is why I can't get and stay quite as incensed about rap as you: I recognize how destructive it is to the community from which it derives, but it exists only because that community has been the prime victims of the corporate rape of our economy, our society, and our world. Gangsters are nothing new, neither are those who romanticize them--they are natural products of poverty culture. Mass media (corporation controlled, motivated by profit--assuredly) gives this romanticization a far greater audience, but the root cause is the same, and the solution is the same--if the society, the economy, and the government were just, there would be no problem. --seed |
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02 Sep 98 - 11:01 AM (#36804) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Bob Schwarer I think rap exists is because you could get attention & make money. Bob S. |
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02 Sep 98 - 08:21 PM (#36836) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. Thanks, Jenny, I do stay in trouble, especially at the school where I teach, quite a lot. I know I need to lighten up sometimes, but I say high-mindedly and pompously or whatever, I will oppose anything or anyone that limits the chances of my students and others to recover from this madness, and yes, we are talking about real death here. My friend seed, once again I agree with you on just about everything, but one of my major points all along was that gangsta culture is not political or artistic, and is indeed, as you implied above, a hellish marriage of corporate greed, government and societal neglect, and an opportunity to get rich that no one with human characteristics would consider taking advantage of. And sadly, there is never going to be a society, government, or economy (except for specially created small ones) that is just. I wish I/we could have learned this fact an easier way. The realization of this was an awful part of growing up. Looking for trouble, Chet W. |
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03 Sep 98 - 12:55 AM (#36871) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: steve t Music is very important to me. But I can't remember it ever changing my political views. Books have though.
I heard a trio of women at the Ottawa Folk Festival on Sunday, just before Arlo Guthrie came on, sing a song, part of which suggested that all men were potential mass murderers of young women. I emailed them, and surprisingly, I got a reply stating that I'd understood the lyrics correctly. Frankly, I doubt many people even noticed this senseless fear-mongering, because the song was otherwise so beautiful and sorrowful. And those people that buy the record? I doubt any will change their minds one way or the other about the dangerousness of men.
It's kind of interesting that someone says: "I think rap exists is because you could get attention & make money." Kind of makes one wonder -- how many people forget that NOT all human efforts are efforts to get money and things? The average kid sees 10,000 commercials a year now.
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03 Sep 98 - 04:27 PM (#36949) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: The Shambles Steve t Music may not have changed your political views but in the case of the song you mentioned it does seem to have made you think about them, to the extent of making your views stronger, or clearer. Maybe that's enough? The way to deal with the song I would suggest is to write one in reply. I had that sort of thing said to me about men being potentially this or that and got a bit upset. I thought about it though and felt better when I realised that everyone is potentially anything! As for the dangerousness of men (and women), I think history demonstrates that one, only too well, but I take your point. The point about the average child being exposed to 10,000 adverts a year is interesting. How many of those, directly target a group that does not possess the income to purchase those things? |
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03 Sep 98 - 07:03 PM (#36958) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. Steve t, I guess before I could consider a position like the one you described, I would have to come up with either a gut feeling or a working definition of what constitutes politics. The women you were describing in Ottawa were of course ridiculous. I believe, as Walt Whitman said it (approximately), that everything that is a part of you is also a part of me, meaning that we are all capable, if only physically, of any act that anyone else commits. Perhaps these women were relating bad experiences in their own lives, but I wonder if it ever crossed their minds the spectacular chauvinism of their song. It was the same as saying all black children are potential murderers. Other than the Nazis and the KKK, I doubt they would get much of an appreciative audience for that. But Shambles is right in pointing out that the important thing is that you, and no doubt many others, thought about an issue and hopefully came to a conclusion that you're comfortable with. As for the advertisements aimed at children too young to have an income, take a look at the cereal section the next time you're in the grocery store. All the sweet cereals with cartoon animals on the box and a surprise inside are invariably on the bottom shelf, where short little children can see them. Everything else, from granola to silage is on the top shelf. More to say but we're having a storm here. I'll be back. Chet W. |
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04 Sep 98 - 08:50 PM (#37113) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. I guess the thing I was getting at was this (and I am not paraphrasing Barry Goldwater here): There is no virtue in being interested in only your own civil (or human) rights. If they are yours, then they are mine too, and vice versa. I expect you to be interested in my rights, and I am interested in yours. If everyone just comes out of the woodwork when they are threatened, and stays inside enjoying their sofas when somebody else is threatened, there is no virtue in that. I had an experience similar in principle to steve t's, and I learned a lot from it. People appear to be enlightened because they stick up for themselves only, beoming members of interest groups, marching, demonstrating, etc but they still think SOME other groups are deserving of marginalization or outright bashing. Have you all heard about the gang phenomenon know as the "Straight Edgers"? These are young, mostly white kids who don't drink, smoke, do drugs or have premarital sex, and they are literally willing to kill anybody who does. What's the principle there, I wonder if they think about it. I, being a male, apparently white, and from the south, am assumed to be a racist. People tell me jokes I don't like. I am accused of it many times when I speak against rap, as I did above. This is not "reverse" discrimination or chauvinism. There is only one kind. Chet W. |
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04 Sep 98 - 11:25 PM (#37124) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Jenny Chet ... I don't know how you do it! My question to you is ... are you making a difference? Are you getting through to "them." I've counseled and mentored and have come to the conclusion that people are simply going to do what they want to do. It would be very easy to say that behavior is genetic not learned, but I don't believe that every African-America kid is born a murderer or gangsta. So many people don't understand the power of music and the danger of gangsta rap. I reckon I'm just rambling but I keep searching for answers and they don't seem to be forthcoming. I'm glad to meeting someone as outspoken as I ... my father says I have a problem with authority ... my response is that my problem is not with authority but with ignorance and stupidity and my deep, abiding impatience with anyone who thrives on intimidation. And about the women folksingers and the song about men being mass murderers ... what a load of crap! Well ... that's enough expounding for one night ... keep up the good work ... Jenny |
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05 Sep 98 - 01:13 PM (#37158) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. Jenny, Yes, I do think I'm making a difference. When I take on projects like opposing glamorization of the criminal lifestyle for children, I'm hoping to make more of a difference, because most people I talk to don't seem to think that there are dangers where there obviously are some. You didn't really think that I was saying every black kid is born to be a murderer, did you? I was just comparing that with the story related by steve t. above. As a biology teacher, I can tell you that the mystery of behavior being genetic or learned is no closer to a real answer than it was fifty years ago. It still appears that most behavior is learned, but at an amazingly early age. The character traits that will form the bulk of a person's personality (gentle or cruel, inquiring or uninterested, loving or not) appear to be formed in the first two years of life. Chet W. |
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06 Sep 98 - 03:35 PM (#37236) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca The first thing we do is kill all the television sets. |
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06 Sep 98 - 09:30 PM (#37269) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. Blowin' up your tv might be a good idea, especially if you have children in the house. Threads on subjects like these tend to fizzle after awhile; I guess we just run out of ideas. Some people might even be annoyed that we discuss a subject that is not strictly musical. I think, however, that it's a very important subject, and if anyone would care to correspond, either here or by e-mail, I'd be glad to join. I'll keep checkin', Chet W. |
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07 Sep 98 - 02:50 PM (#37334) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca I got rid of my television as a time waster. I confess to missing the baseball games, and "Cracker", but overall I am well rid of it. It does make you feel out of the loop. I sometimes sit in the office lunchroom and overhear co-workers talking about the dreadful conduct of some person, only to learn the person is a character on a television show of which I have never heard. It is hard to escape from televisions these days. Every bar and diner seems to have one or more, and even if you do go to an actual ballgame they have televisions by the concession stands. I was brought up to believe that it was the height of ill-manners to turn on the television when you had guests, but now it seems that televisions are kept on from breakfast to the late show. (Maybe my friends have found an easy way to get rid of me.:)) I had a happy childhood. We received only two TV stations, one English, one French. Now they get close to fifty. Perhaps we should start licencing them, like they do in England. Somebody mentioned Nike. I would never buy their products anyway, considering them grossly overpriced, but you have the added dimension of how the products are made and by whom. It is however difficult to take a principled stand on such purchases. Your computer parts could be made by a political prisoner in China, and if you want to buy a cheap cotton shirt for the hot months it might well be made by a child in a third world country. I am surprised, though, that Tiger Woods would endorse Nike, given his background. He could have made a great statement by publicly refusing to have anything to do with them until they wised up. |
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07 Sep 98 - 04:07 PM (#37337) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. I rarely watch tv myself, except for news and the nature shows on Discovery and the like. I have felt the same as you described, hearing people at work discussing popular shows. I never saw even one Seinfeld. The one thing I do value highly is the opportunity to watch movies of my choosing from the video store. There is occasionally one well worth seeing. Overall, thoough, I think you're right, we'd all be better off if they had never been invented. When I was an adolescent, our next door neighbor was a Pentecostal Holiness preacher. They don't watch tv, and I used to try to argue/discuss the subject with him. Now I guess he was right, although neither of us knew why at the time. Some interesting statistics: the average American child watches 6 and a half hours of tv per day. Estimates for the number of violent acts, including murder, that they have seen on tv by the time they start to school range from several thousand to 20 or 30 thousand. No wonder that as they mature (physically at least), violence does not seem so unusual to them. Not all of course, but way too many. One couple that I know decided that their son would not play with toy guns, so he started making them himself out of lego blocks or just a stick. Another very close friend has a child in the second grade who has been very carefully and lovingly parented and has excellent manners. He is obsessed with guns. He doesn't have a real one of his own of course, but he is constantly designing toy ones, some of which actually fire things like spitballs. This causes me much concern, but it also gives me the idea of just how difficult this problem would be to solve. By all means, if there's a child in the house, blow up the tv. Chet W. |
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07 Sep 98 - 05:31 PM (#37341) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Barbara Shaw Nothing personal meant here, but "blowing up the TV" is an interesting, violent, response to a problem. Human nature seems to have this potential. My son was not allowed to have toy guns, and like the kid mentioned above, he made his own out of twigs and other things. The creativity this demonstrated was great. He's very non-violent (and very creative) today, despite having built such an arsenal as a child. I'm still against calling a weapon of destruction a "toy" but am not as concerned about that particular aspect. Don't have any answers but do question the available outlets for the aggression that is possible in everyone. |
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07 Sep 98 - 07:05 PM (#37351) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca I grew up in a house full of guns, spent my teenage years with one loaded in the closet, and I have yet to shoot anyone. I did actually consider borrowing a shotgun and shooting the television while the idiotic laughtrack of a sitcom played, but on second thought considered that a childish and futile gesture. I gave it to my niece on the understanding that it was never to be turned on in my presence. She has lived up to her part of the bargain, although on surprise visits I have found it still warm, with a half-finished plate of food in front of it.:) When Chet suggests "blowing up the TV", I think he is quoting the John Prine song "Spanish Pipedream" which suggests that we undertake that action, move to the country, build a little home, and feed the children on peaches. (Or was it pizza -- I can't recall. Seems to me that a steady diet of peaches would be dangerous to the bowels of small children) Apart from blowing up the television (pacifists and anti-explosive types may feel prefer to chuck it out the window, a la Keith Moon) I don't really accept the solution suggested by the dancer in that song. The last thing the countryside needs is more idealistic urbanites annoying the farming folk, although I admit that there are exceptions who fit in very well. You can revise your life and make a difference as much in the city as elsewhere, probably more so, and running away from evil has never in my experience put a stop to it. I think Winston Churchill did more to put down evil than any pacifist I ever met. |
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07 Sep 98 - 08:43 PM (#37358) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. Barbara, I was quoting John Prine. There is at least one story about another American celebrity (was it Elvis?) who shot his tv on more than one occasion. I do think there's a difference, though not an infinite one, between doing violence to inanimate objects and doing violence to humans and othere living things (another partial quote from the 60's!). How many songs and stories are there about burning up your necktie or your credit card or "punching that time clock til it can't ring". Beating swords into plowshares. Jesus trashing the very means of livelihood of the currency traders in the temple. Your point is well-taken, don't get me wrong. A colleague of mine writes violent stories, says it keeps him from doing violent things. That bothers me. I do appreciate the encouraging story about your son. I am just afraid that it won't work out that way for everyone. I, too grew up with guns around the house. We were on a little farm in South Carolina so it was expected. I was given a gun for hunting as an adolescent. I went out with it one time and killed a bird, probably a dove, and I've never shot a gun since. Sincerely, Chet W. |
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07 Sep 98 - 09:59 PM (#37368) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: northfolk Happy Labor Day to all. I am taking a few minutes to lurk around this site, and find out what has been going on over the last few days, and I thought that I would say a feww things apropos to the ongoing discussion. Labor Day in Detroit was an unusual mix of the same parade that has gone on for many years. Lots of good hard working folk...not much vitality. Followed by an event called Laborfest, in its second year, at the parade end, it featured labor art and culture with separate tents for all aspects of support. High on the agenda were performers, many local that included rappers, (not gangsta) folksingers, a gospel choir, jazz, the Detroit Federation of Musicians led the parade...and the day ended with Billy Bragg singing the Internationale, and Solidarity. The crowd loved it!!! The Labor movement is stirring again, and music is the at the heart of the movement. |
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08 Sep 98 - 12:27 AM (#37382) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Jenny Chet ... You misunderstood me ... sorry ... I was most certainly NOT referring to you ... I was referring to many individuals with whom I come in contact ... an unfortunate situation. I love the East Coast and I love the South, but living in Tallahassee is a definite trip for me. If you feel you are making a difference, then you must be seeing some response. So often I feel like I'm speaking to a blank wall and tend to give up out of frustration ... I'll work on that. Jenny |
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08 Sep 98 - 02:26 AM (#37384) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: BSeed Happy to see all of you still at it here. I just got back from a trip to see my brother who's involved in a losing fight against cancer. He's a very sweet guy and it's very hard, even though we have bitter battles over politics (his idea of a vacation is to go on a cruise with Rush Limbaugh). Anyway, I'm back. There was a time during the late sixties and early seventies when it seemed possible that some of the promises of our hallowed national rhetoric might come to pass: "all men are created equal" and a government established in order "to provide for the general welfare." It was by no means a sure thing, obviously, but we had reason for confidence that things might work out: the supreme court throwing out Jim Crow laws and defining the constitutional protections against self incrimination and illegal search and seizure, the president pushing for civil rights legislation and leading us into a "war on poverty," the congress battling over it, but actually passing laws which supported the court and the president, the people called upon to see themselves as part of a common humanity, at least within national borders, and for a growing mass of the population, in the whole world. Of course at the same time an awful lot of nasty crap was being done, some supposedly in defense of our liberty. But there was reason to believe that things were actually getting better in the country. But at the same time there was a movement gathering strength--a movement which equated wealth with virtue, greed with creative force, concern with weakness, love with blindness. The leaders of this movement claimed they were on the side of someone whose most notable messages were on the order of "Sell everything you have and give it to the poor" and who instructed one of his followers who asked how many times should he forgive someone who has harmed him--seven? the follower asked--and the teacher said seven times seven times seven.... --seed |
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08 Sep 98 - 08:21 PM (#37504) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. Jenny, no offense taken. The results are few and far between, the huge disappointments and tragedy much more common. But once in a while you do see that you awaken something in someone. I have one student now who has developed, because I briefly had a large Chinese mantis on display and we were feeding it, a serious interest in insects. May not seem like much, but it's the first thing he's been interested in in school, other than his auto body repair class, as long as he can remember. It feels great, but at the same time I have to consider that his chances of going home and living a free life are slim. But if he does make it, I'll have been a part of that, in spite of endless layers of administrators who try to prevent success any way they can. I have to add that I am all for the labor movement; I'm trying to promote it here, in a non-union state, through the National Education Association. But please let's not decorate any hope we might have with the stench of communism. I have seen what communism does to people, to countries, to people's ambitions and sense of worth (for God's sake I'm not talking about money here) (my wife came here as a refugee from Czechoslovakia). It is a horror not to be repeated or even tolerated. To use its theme song at a labor rally is, to me, a sign of extreme naivete and a terrible risk. Thanks for the talk, Chet W. |
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09 Sep 98 - 08:32 PM (#37679) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. Guess I scared everybody off. Sorry. Chet W. |
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09 Sep 98 - 09:19 PM (#37687) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: northfolk No, just got back. I never was an apologist or supporter of the soviet state. I don't equate the Internationale with that state. It is a fairly well circulated story that the Polish shipyard workers were singing the Internationale, when they burned down Party headquarters in the early days of Solidarnosc. This song and its poetic predecessor, have been adopted by many leftists, socialists, workers organizations, unions, syndicates, guilds all over the world...as an anthem that defines their troubles and goals...It doesn't belong to the stalinists or the trotskyists or the maoists or the fabians or the leninists or any one else that thinks they have any "formula", it belongs to working men an women that want to sing a song of hope, that by struggling together we can overcome whatever tyrant stands in our path. My message was meant to convey a new sense of vitality, in the labor movement. I hope that is the case in your work to organize educators, best wishes. Solidarity. PS. I don't know much about Czechoslovakia, but I do find it troubling that neighbor yugoslavia, once as close to being a shining example of what a "socialist" society could be, is now a war ravaged entanglement of pre-world war prejudices and hatred. My loyalty lies not with any economic system, but with building small "d" democracy, everywhere. |
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10 Sep 98 - 08:57 PM (#37831) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. I know it's a beautiful song, but unfortunately it did become associated with the very communist criminalities that you named. If you were a child in a communist country before 1989, you were forced to sing the song, and it became a symbol that time can't erase. It's a mistake to play with symbols. I know that these idiots who live around me that actually drive around with little confederate flags on their cars couldn't answer any real question about the confederacy or the civil war, but displaying that symbol does mean something to somebody. It causes some people real pain, generally people who don't deserve more pain. In this case I think that the public good is served by being sensitve to the real feelings of a significant group of people, not by having the majority recklessly get their way by intent or indifference. Chet W. |
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11 Sep 98 - 01:25 AM (#37859) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: BSeed Chet: Did you see my posting of 8 august (5 above this)? You and I were probably posting at about the same time so I thought you could have missed it. --seed |
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11 Sep 98 - 05:43 PM (#37893) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. Seed, I did read it and I just reread it. It's written very well and makes excellent points. I don't quite understand, though, are we making a connection between Christianity and communism, because, at least on the scale of large countries, I assure you there is none. I don't think Christianity calls all of us to a monastic lifestlye. I do think we have a constant responsibility to the less fortunate around us. There is much ground between all these points, and somewhere there hides the truth. Chet W.
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11 Sep 98 - 09:41 PM (#37920) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: northfolk I think that many people are uncomfortable equating the ideal of socialism or communism with the soviet state. Many others, I'd guess Chet included, are afraid not to. I know that the cold war really was a huge money pit of US interests and Soviet interests bankrupting their national economies to make sure the other failed. A moral dilemna I have is, starving nations were always in a bidding war, between the two "super powers", over who was going to help, ie. control them, now they just starve. the heros and villains are a product of your own beliefs...which attrocities you allow yourself to accept. |
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11 Sep 98 - 10:16 PM (#37926) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. You're right, I am afraid not to equate the two. No matter how honest and honorable the original leaders might seem, or how beautiful the ideas look on paper, there will always come a Stalin or a Mao. In the case of golden-era capitalism there came Carnegies and Mellons and Morgans, but out system allowed us, even though it was very difficult, to stop their worst offenses. It would be a beautiful thing if we all worked for the good of all, but unfortunately nature has not made the human species that way. I hope that we can help the starving nations, but as a scientist I have to recognize that the earth is now home to at least ten times as many people as it could naturally support. Populations rose artificially for a variety of reasons (colonial power-installed industry, plantations, high-tech agriculture,etc). How they (the populations) will be corrected by nature is yet to be seen. Communism is clearly not the answer, except when small groups of like-minded, reliable people decide to set up their own little closed-off-as-possible communities, but even these cannot be expected to last more than a generation, and I have never personally seen one that did not consist of mostly highly-educated people with good incomes. Chet W. |
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12 Sep 98 - 01:15 AM (#37936) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: BSeed Chet, I don't know why this keeps happening: I posted a response to your response to my question about your failure to respond to my posting (getting a bit tedious?), waited for the thread to appear at the top of the threads list then clicked on it to see if my note was at the tail end of the thread; it was, so I went on to other threads, and after a while, shut down. Now, four hours later I come back and my posting is nowhere to be found. When I'm able to remember what my response was, I'll get back to you. --seed |
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12 Sep 98 - 07:35 PM (#37988) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca Carnegie at least built libraries, and Henry Ford left his property to be used as a heritage park. Lord Beaverbrook gave his money to universities and art galleries, and even founded a trad folk song festival if I am not mistaken. I don't see Bill Gates doing these things, but perhaps he keeps his light under a bushel basket. |
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12 Sep 98 - 10:06 PM (#37996) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: BSeed Andrew Carnegie, if I remember my history accurately, became convinced that he had sinned greatly in accumulating his vast fortune, and the libraries and hospitals were an attempt to buy his salvation. Another historical note: after George Bush was elected president in 1988 largely on the strength of his "thousand points of light" rhetoric, it was reported (I guess by the IRS) that charitable donations from the wealthy dropped significantly. I can't remember the percentage of dropoff. --seed |
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13 Sep 98 - 03:15 AM (#38007) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca Carnegie was indeed a strict Presbyterian, IIRC. "Gonna buy me two wings of silver, yes Lord, to fly me home . . ." |
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14 Sep 98 - 06:46 PM (#38120) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. For an interesting little bit of history and philanthropy, look up the Johnstown Flood, caused by the failure of a defective dam owned by the Carnegies and Mellons and others of their social status. Engineers had advised them for years to fix the dam, and they declined. Finally, it broke and a whole town was swept away, a couple of thousand people died. There was no such thing as civil or criminal action against millionaires in those days, but you might notice that Carnegie Hall, Carnegie-Mellon University, and the libraries and museums were built over the next few years. I'd say that was a little public relations campaign. Maybe I'm wrong. BTW seed; I responded to one of those responses late last week. Try again. Chet W. |
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15 Sep 98 - 02:20 AM (#38166) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: BSeed Actually, Chet, Northfolk said pretty much what I had in mind. I did add that someone said, and I agree, that socialism is christianity applied to economics. I agree that communist states have generally been despotic messes, but forms of socialism have been practiced successfully all around the world--most of Western Europe has socialized medicine (it seems to have started in, of all places, Germany under Kaizer Wilhelm I), so does Canada (single payer) and to an extent, Japan. Most European countries also have much more generous social security than the U.S. These economies are suffering now, but not because of their socialized institutions, but because there, like here, industrial jobs are being exported to third world countries. When I was in high school in the forties and college in the fifties, it was the age of "enlightened capitalism," we were told. Corporations helped create prosperity by paying good wages to their employees, creating strong markets for their products. A couple of years ago it was big news when a factory which recycled plastics into warm knitted fabric burned down--and the owner chose not to rebuild overseas, but instead kept his employees on payroll and rebuilt the plant. --seed |
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15 Sep 98 - 06:04 PM (#38228) Subject: RE: COURAGE II From: Chet W. Socialized medicine, pensions, and the like are fine things. I'm a teacher; The public school system is probably the biggest socialist institution in America. But these are not the same a a communist (or socialist for that matter) government. Orthodox communism is no better or worse than Carnegie-style capitalism. If you want to see what an orthodox communist government does to a country or a culture, go visit Russia and large parts of Poland today (stay out of the cities in Poland, they have changed). Talk with people who lived under Stalinist and Krushchev and Brezhnev regimes. Look up that picture of the man standing in front of the tank on Tianenman Square in Peking just a few years ago. Communism cannot exist without despotic power, and that leads directly to hell, every time. An enlightened culture (which I dearly hope to live long enough to see somewhere) would take the best ideas from many sources and make them their own. Left wing and wiser than ever, Chet W. |