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25 Aug 03 - 05:46 PM (#1007963) Subject: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Peter T. This may seem like a dopy question, but can anyone tell me (with examples), how the Doo-Wop groups (and/or the Girl Groups) did their stuff technically? I have vaguely assumed that sometimes people sang in thirds around each other, and did barber shop things. But I have never seen or read a musical analysis of the sounds these guys and girls got up to -- innovations, etc. Anyone ever been in one of these groups and can give some inside info.? yours, Peter T. |
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25 Aug 03 - 06:21 PM (#1007986) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: greg stephens Questions like this, and things about comparing versions of tunes and so on, are not easy to deal with on mudcat. The management dont like pictures in the text of our posts(and I havent got a computer and scanner so couldnt do it ), Basically, to answer this easily you need to post a few bars of harmonised song tunes and discuss them, so as you can see the sheet music and the text together. So easy in a book, not the natural way of doing things here. |
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25 Aug 03 - 07:27 PM (#1008011) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: GUEST,.gargoyle This German chap has a nice simple explanation. (but his background takes a while to load)
http://www.doowopy.de/e-01.html
You are close when you are suggesting the overtones found in barbershop quartets - (and about that...dissertations in physics have been written)
Spasseschalber!
Sincerely, |
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25 Aug 03 - 11:29 PM (#1008115) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: M.Ted Pick a group and a tune and we'll take it apart, Peter--different groups did different things, from simply singing block chords to stuff with a bass line, falsetto, lead and lewd, pulsating triplets-- |
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25 Aug 03 - 11:52 PM (#1008125) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: GUEST Sing so far out-of-tune that you produce "beat frequencies". Ugh! |
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26 Aug 03 - 08:48 AM (#1008273) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Peter T. Thanks for the reference, garg. Well, I notice in something like Earth Angel that the lead sings away, and underneath people are just doing block chords. That seems like the simplest. What would the next level of complexity be -- everyone in thirds? I imagine somewhere along the line counterpoint shows up. yours, Peter T. |
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26 Aug 03 - 08:56 AM (#1008279) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Amos Actually, the way these arrangements evolve is more organic and less analytical. It's on the order of "I know, man...you go "wumma wumma wumma wooooooo" and I'll come in on "wumma" with "beeroop, beeroop, beeroop", OK?? Let's try that!!" You just do that a few hundred times and you've got My Girl! or What Becomes of a Broken Heart. A |
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26 Aug 03 - 09:03 AM (#1008288) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: wysiwyg Start in the melodies and improvisational embellishments of the spirituals as performed authentially (Lomax collection, American Memory), and then weave in the harmonies and back-up pitched rhythms the early black gospel quartets used (Dovesong), as these evolved out of the spirituals, and then add a little secularized fun. Doo Wop gospel is a blast. ~Susan |
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26 Aug 03 - 10:21 AM (#1008344) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: M.Ted Earth Angel it is, Peter, and a good choice, because it is one of the "essential" doo-wop tunes-- Give it a good listen and pick out the following elements: A)The unison sections(where the back up is not harmonized) B)The places where "call and response" is used-- C)The places where the tenor's countermelody falls in D)The places that the bass falls in E)the way the back up changes on the bridge F)The big ending Pay particular attention to the way the vocal parts change as the song progresses--note the places that the lead singer is unaccompanied--Note all different ways chords are handled--depending on where they are used in the song--Also note the different endings for each section-- Amos is off base(nice guy though) in his analysis of Motown sessions--having worked a couple motown recording sessions, I can assure you that the folks there were very analytical about what they were doing-- |
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26 Aug 03 - 10:23 AM (#1008345) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: wysiwyg Yes, but what they drew from was the common ground base that had started with the spirituals, even if they had forgotten that by then, I bet. THAT part would have been the toolbox they analytically drew from? ~S~ |
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26 Aug 03 - 10:57 AM (#1008371) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt PeterT I performed the musical Forever Plaid, which has extremely complex harmonies( actually a bit more lush then the original arrangements) and have since written 2 shows which were basically reviews of 50s 60s do-wop. I think it is pretty obvious that there is a lead line, then a bass part that has pretty big interval jumps sometimes a showy bass part is a nice effect. The main thing that seperates Do-wop from barbershop harmony is tha fact that generally speaking, Do-wop chords are 1st inversion for the tonic chord, while Barbershop normally follows a 2nd inversion tonic. this creates the three chord progression (in do-wop) Key of C: tonic chord EGC 4chord FAC back to tonic EGC Dominant BDG or BDG BDFG (7th) mess with this harmony arrangement on a piano to hear the voicings and you will see that it follows the sound that the Do-wops had mist likely by accident by the way. Once you learn to sing this, you can nearly always get the arrangement vocally in a big hurry. It just starts to make sense. The other Chord progression that is used a lot is the Tonic, Harmonic minor Subdominant or 4 chord, followed by the Dominant seventh. Use similar voicing for inner harmonies, let the bass voice walk down, C, A, F, G (kinda like the heart and soul left hand) PM me if you would like some atrrangements and I will be glad to share what I have. I am writing another review for next May which will use this very basic arrangement for lots and lots of songs. jimmyt |
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26 Aug 03 - 11:10 AM (#1008379) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: M.Ted Not sure if this is what you're driving at, but, yes, a lot of the people had background in playing gospel and related church music, and many of the singers had come up singing in church--that said, the musicians all had solid formal musical training, many with music degrees and pop/jazz background--and the string and horn background in "Motown Sound" was played by Detroit Symphony orchestra musicians-- |
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26 Aug 03 - 11:58 AM (#1008407) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: wysiwyg Yup, all part of the evolution. Easy to hear it in the old recordings between spirituals-time and Motown. ~S~ |
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26 Aug 03 - 01:10 PM (#1008442) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Jerry Rasmussen Well Gollee!: who ever woulda thunk. And here I thought they just sung. Even though I have a black gospel quartet, many things we sing have a doo wop feel to them... some very intentionally, and some just naturally. We have never uttered a single word about harmonies, thirds, or anything vaguely technical. We Iz totally ignurent in that regard, and completely unanalytical. probably like most of the fifteen year old kids singing on street corners. I bet most of them sang what sounded good to them. I'm with WYSIWYG on this one. When we sing, we draw from all the music that we've loved and made a part of us, whether it's folk, rock, pop, country or blues. Sometimes, we consciously borrow, or build on a fragment of a particular song in a particular style, but often we are just singing from the heart. Ignorance may not be bliss, but sometimes it works just fine.. Jerry |
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26 Aug 03 - 01:17 PM (#1008444) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt Well, Jerry, You have managed to make me feel rather silly for getting technical, but I agree that the evolution of street corner harmony came from what worked, what was simple and what was repeatable. My own personal theory on how the 1st inversion harmony developed is that it is so simple for a non- piano player to learn on the piano. It is also a very easy harmony for the other three middle parts to sing, and being stacked so tight, it makes the special Do-wop sound. But what do I know? I am just an ole Georgia cracker, and should always defer to an ole Janesville Badger like you!grin |
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26 Aug 03 - 01:30 PM (#1008454) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: M.Ted Jerry--this seems a good time to ask you if you could describe the process you guys go through in working up a song--I'd be especially appreciate it if you'd describe the different roles that each voice plays, at least, to the degree that you guys talk about them-- I have to admit to being a bit of a wonk about the technical aspects, owing, I must admit, to my early inability to improvise anything like a harmony part to anything--Had to learn theory before I could join in-- |
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26 Aug 03 - 01:31 PM (#1008455) Subject: RE: Technical:How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: GUEST,MMario it sound like jimmyt has a good handle on *what* makes the do-wop harmonies; and I don't doubt M. Ted's word that the proffessional musicians recording do wop were highly analytical - but I'd put money that as it evolved WYSIWYG and Jerry and Amos have it down pat... |
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26 Aug 03 - 01:46 PM (#1008468) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt I guess I interpreted the question as more the nuts and bolts of the hermonies that make the "Do-wop sound" As a matter of reality, when my do-wop group gets together and we grind out a song, we do not write the parts out, we pick a key, start vamping (in first inversion) then add lead line, bass line and stack the harmonies so they are comfortable for our inner guys. I am not a theory guy per se, but have always played and sung what sounded right. I managed to get this knowledge purely by trial and error as well as listening to the old recordings to get an idea. It would be oversimplification to say that my formula is 100percent accurate in all do-wop music, but it will give you a running start on most oldies! |
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26 Aug 03 - 02:03 PM (#1008479) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Peter T. jimmyt you are a godsend, and don't let anyone tell you different. I love Mudcat. Now I have to digest this, and come back with another question --got to think of a couple of more complicated songs -- Is "In the Still of the Night" one? Hmm. What about a girl group song like "Sweet Talkin' Guy" (Chiffons!)? yours, Peter T. |
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26 Aug 03 - 02:32 PM (#1008499) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: M.Ted Forgive me if this is out of place, but it strikes me that the E-G-c inversion allows the melody note to be on top and leaves an opening at the bottom to drop in a bass note, making it possible for both to move around a bit, without stepping on the guys holding the chord down--- The other thing is that the voices on the E and G are singing a minor third interval, which is a very intuitive thing, and sounds "right"--It also makes a it possible to do a simple sort of "chase" through the 1-6-4(2m)-5 chord progression, as follows: two voices start on E-G for C, E stays put while G moves up a single scale step to A(for A minor), A stays put while E moves up a step to F, then both move up a step together to G and B for that penultimate G chord--then B stays put while G drops a major step to F for the G7--Once a group of kids know this trick, they can use it over and over, with the melody sailing above and a the bass punching in below, and even add simple rhythmic variations(such as Wa-Wa-wa instead of Do-do-wah)-- |
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26 Aug 03 - 02:57 PM (#1008511) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt Mted As near as I can see, you are right on the money! I really prefer to perform Do-wop with 5 voices, Lots of the old groups had 4part gtoup with lead vocal. This allows lots of liberties with the lead. When I mentioned the 1st or EgC inversion, I am sorta intending this forthe 3 inner voices, allowing the Bass some liberty to walk around. The lead may or may not be one of the three "inner parts, but it sure is easier to get a full sound with 5. I son't actually analyse the theory of each situation, but it seems that this technique keeps the upper three voices very tight, which to me contributes to the "Do-wop sound" |
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26 Aug 03 - 03:00 PM (#1008513) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: M.Ted MMario--I'm not after your money, but I had a chance, a while back to sit in with three of Frank Valli's singing chums from the Jersey street corner days, and they made it very clear that they had sung doo-wop because it was what people wanted to hear, and that even in those old days, they could also do Four Freshman type stuff(They made me sing melody, which requires no specially skill in a vocal group, outside of getting the notes right, but meant that I could hang in there even when the did Blue World and Graduation Day)--In reading through some of the Doo-wop sites, it seems that it was not uncommon for R&B vocal groups to "De-Evolve" from more sophisticated stuff to Doo-wop-- |
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26 Aug 03 - 03:00 PM (#1008514) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt Peter T, I will have to think about those 2 songs, not really do-wop in as much as they are more complex chord progressions. I have messed with the thought od writing a big medley of three chord songs strung together . could be a real novelty |
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26 Aug 03 - 03:13 PM (#1008519) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: M.Ted JimmyT, no question that five voices fill things out--smaller groups can get to sounding very thin around the edges, especially when one voice is holding back-- I had a chance to hear Brian Wilson when he did his Pet Sounds with Full Orchestra tour--not only did he use the five parts, he often had two voices covering each part! Quite a contrast to the shaky sound the "Beach Boys" had when I last heard them back in the 80's-- |
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26 Aug 03 - 03:57 PM (#1008538) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: wysiwyg I have a soundfile somewhere around here of a recording of early-quartet black gospel, where the guys start out on an a capella piece, and then stop cuz they can hear that it's not going as they'd planned to do it. They start over, and from there on it sounds completely spontaneous. But GOOD. They knew what they were doing, whether they appeared to have used technical know-how or just inner senses of what fit. I'ts the old ear vs. dots thing-- best is often when they work in synergy. ~Susan |
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26 Aug 03 - 04:12 PM (#1008544) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt Susan, I couldn't agree more. I have always allowed my ear to do the right thing. 45 years after I began improvising, I am still learning the theory of why some things work musically. For some follks, though, it needs to be a little more structured until they sort of get the formula in their heads. I played a gig on St Paddy's with a group of "Irish style " musicians. Technically very good musicians, a concert flautist, harpist, etc but they read everything we did. It was the most disappointing music I have ever done, albiet technically played like it read off the page. Given a chance I would always prefer music from the heart! |
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26 Aug 03 - 04:32 PM (#1008553) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: GUEST,pdq Now that the technical wave has passed a bit, maybe an un-trained chap can follow up on the "de-evolve" or "devolve" concept. The lead singer for the Orioles, Sonny Til, stated that the Mills Brothers were his inspiration. The Mills Bros first recorded in 1931, as a very straight barber shop based group. Three brothers and their father, who played rhythm guitar and, I believe, sang bass as needed. They gradually added more swing and syncopation and jazz artifacts until the old sound was almost gone, leaving their impecable timing and intonation. At least a few Mills Bros songs were coveded in the 1950's by Do-Wop groups. |
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26 Aug 03 - 04:43 PM (#1008559) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt I have always admired the Mills Brothers, as well as the Inkspots, but my favorite on that type of group would have to be the Four Freshmen |
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26 Aug 03 - 06:16 PM (#1008596) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Jerry Rasmussen How do we find harmonies... hmm... when we're learning a song that's already been recorded, I have to push the guys not to copy the harmonies (and even the supposedly impromptu asides)even though the original recording is great. I guess it's my folk background. Many of the songs we do are ones that I've written, so there's no recording to imitate. Even on songs where I sing the lead where I've learned it from a recording, I only let the guys hear the recording once or twice, and then we make it ours. Sometimes, we run into serious trouble when one of the other leads choses a song that's been recorded, and learns the lead EXACTLY as it's done on the recording, when the rhythm changes unpredictably throughout the song. That makes it almost impossible for the rest of us to follow, because some lines are held out longer than the number of beats they're legally allowed. Don't ask me what the rhythm is, or how many beats to a line, but I know when extra beats are added, without a pattern. And, because I'm playing guitar, I do a lot of vamping, waiting until the lead singer finally gets done with one line and decides it's time to sing the next.. After singing as a quartet for a couple of years, we added a fifth person, and were tripping all over each other on harmonies... mostly because the fifth person usually sang solo, and kept drifiting back into the lead melody. As a quartet, we learn a new song with my blocking it out on guitar, picking the melody so the guys can hear it, and where the chord changes are. Depending on who is singing the lead, the other two harmonies (other than Joe who sings bass, and has his own freedom) figure out who is going to sing the high harmony, and who is going to drop down between the lead, and Joe bringing up the bass. We're not a typical group because we all sing lead, and none of us have a high tenor. When Joe sings lead, I sing bass, when Derrick sings lead, Frankie sings tenor and I sing baritone... sometimes Frankie and I will switch harmonies during a song. Whatever needs singing gets sung, the best that we can. Because we don't have a classic second tenor, we tend to pitch our songs lower than a classic doo wop or black gospel quartet would. If we had a second tenor, we could probably find enough space for a five man group with four harmony lines. One of the ways that we compensate for the lack of a second tenor (is that the right term for the higher of the two tenors?) Frank will sometimes sing falsetto. He has a fine falsetto. I have a sneak-it-past-in-a-pinch falsetto which I use ocassionaly when there's enough room to hide, and Derrick sometimes goes into falsetto. I have a wonderful video of the Fairfield Four which includes a sequence where they're working out a song in someone's living room. They also talk about the pace of the song, and what happens if you take it too slow, or too fast. They've sung together for so many years, they can probably find their harmonies after a couple of times through a song, and then try some variations to find more unusual chords. And I'm with you, jimmy... the Four Freshmen are my favorites. As for Doo Wop, Fred Paris of the Five Satins lives locally, and I was glad to see he was singing again on one of the PBS programs. Some people know what they're doing jimmy... some just do their best.. We fall in the second category.. Jerry |
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26 Aug 03 - 06:25 PM (#1008600) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: GUEST,pdq One reason that the Mills Bros could encourage young black kids is that they were successful. So were the Ink Spots, who are more forerunners of The Platters, not really Do-Wop. The Four Freshman begat the Kingston Trio, and so it goes in "folk process", a term coined by the late Lou Gottlieb. Evolution foreward and backward, from technically sophisticated to street-corner and back. |
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26 Aug 03 - 07:01 PM (#1008621) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Jerry Rasmussen One of my greatest musical honors in life came from a bunch of pygmy kids. A young couple I knew went to Africa, where the husband was doing research on Mountain gorillas. The wife was a fan of mine, and had brought a couple of tapes of my albums, and a battery powered tape player. She would play the tapes (and a lot of other folk music) for the little kids in the Village, and the one song they loved most of all was a song I wrote, Ten Pound Radio about singing doo wop on a street corner. I had multi-tracked all of the harmonies, and had the great pleasure of singing bass. The harmonies and the melody were simple, and the kids picked them up quickly, learning the words phonetically. My only regret was that my young friend didn't have a recorder. The whole thought of it really tickled me...music going full circle. I forgot to ask how the gorillas liked it.. Jerry |
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26 Aug 03 - 08:20 PM (#1008642) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Peter T. Please don't stop with the technical wave, that is what I am interested in. I am still trying to get a few minutes from my schedule to ask an interesting question (shall I rather say worthy question, given the talent on offer here) or two. yours, Peter T. |
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26 Aug 03 - 08:26 PM (#1008644) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Bee-dubya-ell If you really want to find out how doo-wop harmonies work, just go find either the guy that put the bop in the bop-shebop-shebop or the one that put the ram in the ramalamadingdong and ask! Sheesh! |
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26 Aug 03 - 08:45 PM (#1008649) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Jerry Rasmussen Hey Peter... I'm not trying to stop the technical responses... I don't recommend anyone approach music the way that I do.... jimmy seems to be the man.. Jerry |
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26 Aug 03 - 10:12 PM (#1008698) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: GUEST,pdq If I can second the statement by Peter T, it is an honor to be able to "talk" to people like Jerry Rasmussen, Ted M., Frank Hamilton, jmmyt and many, many others here on Mudcat. However, is Do-Wop a good forum for music theory class. I have yet to find a competent explaination of Bluegrass harmony. New thread??? |
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26 Aug 03 - 10:22 PM (#1008702) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt to me, do-wop is a great great forum for getting a handle on music theory. I used to sit in church and writer the chord progressions in the hymnals. Anywhere you can get a medium to explore music in its interrelationship is a good one. I think the simplist one is standard blues. I learned to ad-lib on a trumpet playing in a bar while I was in the eighth grade. Had it been more complex music ie jazz, I wouldn't have been able to walk before I ran. Having said this, I still am more in to playing the music rather than analysing it. The reason I have taken a technical bent in this thread is that it is what the original question was about. I still defer to guys like Jerry who forgets every day more than I will ever know about music! |
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27 Aug 03 - 09:19 AM (#1008895) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Peter T. O.K. here's a couple. What about the big one that everyone knows, "Blue Moon" (the Drifters)? That hilarious beginning (bompabomp....)middle singer voice, chorus for a bit, middle singer rolling along, then intro to the top singer for awhile (lower bompist still going along), then the chorus comes in, out again, then things get more complicated under the verse, breaks for the middle voice, then we go into wawaas ("care for") -- the bridge (Really complicated, the best!!!!) -- then towards the end of the chorus there is a big all voice climax ("And when I looked....."), then it goes back into the verse (And at the end a great big chorus (unison?) "AhhAhAhAhAH"). This one has everything. What on earth is going on in the voices? Or even "Barbara Ann" (The Regents, later the Beach Boys). There's a first voice, then dual voices come in (in thirds?) then underneath, the other voices start peeling off in all directions, some of it seems to be to the chord progression, but others wandering around. No great question, but can anyone deconstruct Blue Moon or Barbara Ann? -- while one is at it, do the Beach Boys do anything complex in their harmonies, or is it all in the orchestrations (I don't mean in Barbara Ann, but generally -- I recall that the only orchestration in the Beachboys Barbara Ann is an ashtray)? yours, Peter T. |
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27 Aug 03 - 09:33 AM (#1008897) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt We did Blue Moon for an encore number in the last show I wrote, but brought a guitar player on stage to make the fifth voice as it seems easier to pull it off. If you have a crooner for the solo line, the Bass part is very easy to copy if that is what you want to do, and the inner voices pretty much follow the 1st inversion harmony I mentioned. When we are learning a song, first and foremost is to get the harmony right so you don't have parallel 5ths (if you do it will sound strangely hollow at that point and you will need to correct it) But to get back, we do it with whole note harmony to find trouble spots. Then do it very slowly acapella, then start adding rthe nuances of the song.. That stuff is easy to deal with. WHen you talk about a part wandering around, it is normally the bass part. If you watch a bass player, he will sometimes walk from chord tone to chord tone and in the process will pass through notes that are not at all in the chord. Leading tones, passing tones, etc Your vocal bass can do exactly the same thing. He just needs to know when he is on chord notes and when he isn't If this is confusing let me know. But for example the bass part when he is singing Blllue Blue Blue Blue moon.........dip di dip di dip, he is walking through a line where only half of the notes are truly in the chord. |
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28 Aug 03 - 09:21 AM (#1009554) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt NOTE: THIS THREAD IS UNDER SURVEILANCE BY THE THREAD POLICE!!!!!!!!!!! |
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28 Aug 03 - 09:46 AM (#1009565) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Amos Beautiful expo and a good question, PT -- but I am as in the dark as any about the technical points. A |
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28 Aug 03 - 10:09 AM (#1009583) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt Amos, I am trying to describe as best I can to Peter T a concept of generally how the harmonic stacking of the chords make a do-wop sound. Not being a "chord instrument" player but only being a background as a singer of harmony parts, playing an improvisational solo on a trumpet, and now playing upright string bass, I still struggle with "how this stuff all works" AN analogy would be when guitar players play certain songs and experiment with how they will play a given chord is several different voicings because even though a certain chord is similar no matter how it is voiced, there is a different sound if it is played in root position or 1st or 2nd inversion. I am confusing myself now. I guess it is a hard concept tho put into words. Peter T if you will come visit, I will assemble the do-wop group and we will work up any arrangement you want to explain the process. |
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28 Aug 03 - 12:23 PM (#1009657) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: M.Ted From my point of view, this has been one of the most useful threads ever--Between JimmyT and Jerry, there is enough information on the nuts and bolts aspect of creating this music to sit down and actually do it! Over the years I've done music teaching, playing, writing, and arranging of a lot of different styles of music(mostly the stuff people hear listen to), so I've done lots of research in trying to figure out how to put it together--I can tell you from my own experience that that info is very hard to come by--the music theory books tell you how to analyze stuff, not how to write it, and avoid anything popular anyway--the folks who write about popular music genres generally aren't musicians, and the people who perform generally aren't big on writing about what they do-- So Peter, the answers to your question are here--or at least enough to figure out what you need-- |
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28 Aug 03 - 12:28 PM (#1009664) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: GUEST,pdq The thread police have met and the decision is official. The term "Wop" is derogatory and will henceforth be replaced by "Paisano". Also,jimmyt, you poetic license has been revoked. |
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28 Aug 03 - 12:35 PM (#1009668) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: wysiwyg jimmyt, could you assemble them and record the work you do to put a piece together? I know I'd want a copy! ~S~ |
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28 Aug 03 - 12:36 PM (#1009669) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt alright, if in fact that my license is revoked, would one last ditch effort work? If do=dew= morning percipitation, could I then say: morning percipitation-dago? This is my last attempt! i'll leave quietly if you want..........i promice not to make trouble....i was only trying to help.......... |
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28 Aug 03 - 01:45 PM (#1009715) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt SUsan, you may be on to something Some one recently gave me words she wrote to a parody song about dentistry set to the old song, "Don't know much about science books" or what ever the title is, (What a wonderful world it would be) maybe. She wants it worked up and recorded. Haven't touched that song before so I may try to get it on tape as well as video to give you an idea. Thanks for the suggestion |
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28 Aug 03 - 01:47 PM (#1009718) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt sorry one of those Error in sending windows kopened up and I resent I am a troglydite when it comes to useful things like how computers work! maybe a clone could delete one of the duplicates? DONE! - JoeClone |
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28 Aug 03 - 03:06 PM (#1009763) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: wysiwyg We love you any way you come across, jimmy! Now, git to work! :~) ~S~ |
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28 Aug 03 - 04:12 PM (#1009795) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Jerry Rasmussen One thing us old timers know is that if you call it doo wop, you're not an old timer. The term Doo Wop was made up several years after the music first appeared...It was just called rhythm and blues. It could just as easily have been called shooby dooby doo music, or dip dip dip music... Jerry |
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28 Aug 03 - 04:58 PM (#1009821) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Amos We could call it dooron music, but it might offend the simonologists. It's a hard world when yer trying to be politically correct about everything! :>) A |
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28 Aug 03 - 06:12 PM (#1009849) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Amos On reflection, it should be called shuhboom type music. The first big doowop hit was Sh-boom, Sh-boom. One of them, anyway. A |
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28 Aug 03 - 06:41 PM (#1009862) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Peter T. Hey Jimmy T, where do you live? (I am thinking of your invite). yours, Peter T. |
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28 Aug 03 - 10:11 PM (#1009963) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt Dalton Georgia |
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28 Aug 03 - 10:15 PM (#1009969) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: wysiwyg Ya know.... we really need a video/audio of Jerry and the guys working one up, too. I wonder..... if Max or Pene can put them up here at Mudcat........ Bwahahahahahhhh!!!!!!! ~Susan |
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29 Aug 03 - 09:07 AM (#1010173) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Amos At the very least, PT, if you-all go down to Dalton, you bring a soundman and an MDR witchoo!! :>) Q |
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29 Aug 03 - 10:32 AM (#1010221) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Peter T. Don't see how I can get to Georgia, rats. I would like to get one of these in my head in some detail. Returning to "Blue Moon", the original (Regents) is in D (I think). That would mean the tonic chord F# A D. 4chord B D G back to tonic F# A D. Dominant A (7th) C# E G A. The long intro notes by the bass singer seem to be mostly D, E, F#, G. Towards the end, no surprise it goes to the Dominant so as to kick the song off proper. Early in the intro, the chorus enters -- what do the voices sing? Simple thirds changing along with the chords? (I focus on this because it appears as if for the rest of the song the chorus sings the same pattern). yours, Peter T. yours, Peter T. |
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29 Aug 03 - 10:47 AM (#1010236) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Jerry Rasmussen I'm sitting here, listening to Big Daddy and laughing my head off. If you've never heard of them, which is very likely, you have no idea what you're missing, and it has everything to do with this thread. Big Daddy is a recent group who take hits of the 90's and record them as if they were recorded by groups and individuals of the 50's and 60's. Their choice of arrangements is absolutely hysterical, and dead on. They The Greatest Love (the song Whitney Houston had the big hit with) as if it was done in the style of Blue Moon, Like A Virgin (the Madonna song) as if it was done by Frankie Avalon in the style of Venus.. A Day In The Life (The Beatles) as if it was done by Buddy Holly and the Crickets in the style of Oh Boy.. (I read the news today, Oh, Boy." Whether you know the original rock and pop songs or not, the arrangements are hilarious. The group is well worth checking out... gotta get back to listening to it.. Money For Nothing is on now, as if done by Tennessee Ernie Ford in the style of 16 Tons.. Haw, Haw, Haw, Haw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Formerly straight, Jerry |
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29 Aug 03 - 03:54 PM (#1010402) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: JohnInKansas In the interest of preserving for posterity the answer to the burning question "Yeah, but how do you spell it?" the following is scanned from Uncle John's 4-Ply Bathroom Reader, The Bathroom Reader's Institute, Barnes & Noble, ISBN 0-7607-3809-2. While minor corrections to the OCR conversion were made, the usual procedure of running a spell-check was omitted – for obvious reasons. DOO-WOP SOUNDS You've heard classic street-corner rock 'n' roll tunes before—"Why Do Fools Fall in Love," "Come Go With Me," etc. And you've probably noticed the crazy syllables the groups sing in the background. Ever wonder what they'd look like spelled out? Here are 20 great doo-wop syllables from The Doo-Wop Sing-Along Song Book. 1. Hooodly-Papa-Kow, Papa-Kow, Papa-Kow (YEAH), Hooodly-Papa-Kow, Papa Kow, Papa Kow. A gem from Frankie Lymon and the Teenagers. 2. Pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-Oom-A-Mow-Mow, Papa-Oom Mow Mow. One of the most famous rock syllable combos, from a group called the Rivingtons and a semi-doo-wop tune called— big surprise—"Papa Oom Mow Mow." 3. Oop-Shoop, Shang-A-Lack-A-Cheek-A-Bock. One of the all-time greats, a background section from the Earls' "Remember Then" (1961). 4. Diddle-iddle-iddle-iddle-it (YEAH), Diddle-iddle-iddleiddle-it. Notable for its persistence, in a classic doo-wop tune by Herb Cox and the Cleftones, "Little Girl of Mine" (1956). 5. Neh-neh-neh-neh, neh neh-neh-neh neh-neh-neh, Neh-nehneh-neh-neh, neh-neh-neh-neh (repeat the whole thing two more times), Werp-A-Tul-Werp, Neh-Neh-Neh-Neh, Neh-Neh-NehNeh. A perfect example of why you have to hear doo-wop to appreciate it. The opening of "The Closer You Are," by the Magnificent Four. 6. I Su-mokem Boo-eye-ay, I sumokem boo. Doo-wop's classic drug reference. From "Ling Ting Tong," by the Five Keys. 7. (Bom-bom) Cheer-Up, (Born-born) Cheer-up, (Born-Born) Cheer-Up, (Bom-born) Cheer-Up. A favorite adaptation of a real word into a doo-wop. From the Pentagons' "To Be Loved." 8. Rama Larna-Lama-Lama-Lama Ding Dong, Rarna LamaLama-Lama-Lama-Lama Ding. That's the Edsels playing homage to George Jones, Jr.'s girlfriend, "Rama Lama Ding Dong." 9. Rang Tang Ding Dong, Rankety Sing. Weird syllable combination from "Ring Tang Ding Dong (I am the Japanese Sandman)," by the Cellos. 10. Ka-Ding-Dong, Ding-Dong, Ka-Ding-Dong, Ding-Dong, Ding. The sound of the singer's heart in the G-Clefs' thriller, "Ka-Ding-Dong." 11. Yip, Yip, Yip, Yip Boom, Sha-Na-Na-Na, Sha-Na-Na-NaNa. It's from "Get A Job" by the Silhouettes and it's not only a great doo-wop, it's the symbol of the '70s doo-wop revival. The quasi-greaser band from Columbia University got its name from this background. 12. Sho-Dot'n' Shoby-Doh, Sho-Dot'n' Shoby-Doh. From Fred Parris and the Five Satins' classic "In the Still of the Night." Strangely, although it's sold millions of records, the highest this song ever reached on the Billboard charts was #25. 13. Dom-Dooby-Dorn Woh-oh, Dooby Dooby, Dom Dooby Dorn, Woh-oh, Dooby Dooby, Dom Dooby Dom Woh-Oh, tonight I fell in love. Sort of a white bread doo-wop, but kind of catchy. From the Tokens' "Tonight I Fell In Love." 14. Tuh-tuh-tuh-tuh-tuh-tuh-tuh-aaa-ooo-ooo-ooo-ooo-ooo. A super doo-wop. This is the end of a line in "Unchained Melody," by Vito and the Salutations. The one that starts "Oh my love, my darling, I hunger for your...." Originally, the next word was "touch." In doo-wop it became this 13-syllable creature. 15. A-Wop-bop-A-Loo-bop-A-Bop--Bam-Boom. For sentimental reasons. From Little Richard's "Tutti Frutti." 16. Iminni-ma-ma-ma-Iminni-ma-ma-ma-gin-A-tion. Imini-i-ni-ma-ima-ima-ma-gin-aaaa-tion. The doo-wop spelling for the word "imagination," as interpreted by the Quotations. 17. Shoh-Be-Doo-Wop-Wah-Da. The controversial last line in "What's Your Name," by Don and Juan. No one seems to agree on what they're saying. Here's my version. 18. Wah-Wah-OOO, Chop Chop Chop. An original from "Tell Me Why," by the Rob Roys. 19. Wop-wop-Doodly-wop-Wop-wop. Wop-wop, Doodly-wop-Wop-Wop. The El Doradoes lead into the instrumental break in "At My Front Door." 20. And of course: Bomp-ba-ba-bomp, Ba-bom-ba-bom-bomp, Ba-ba-bomp-ba-ba-bomp, A-dang-a-dang-dang. A-ding-a-dongding, Bluuuue Moooon. From the Marcels' adaptation of the Rogers and Hart classic, "Blue Moon." Originally, this song was written for a '30s film— Jean Harlow was supposed to sing it! She never did. The Marcels, from Pittsburgh, Pa., however, made it the #1 song in America in 1961. John |
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29 Aug 03 - 05:26 PM (#1010440) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: M.Ted You're starting to get on my nerves-Peter! Regents did Barbara Ann! Blue Moon, as noted above, was done by the Marcels--and it is in the key of G! The "BaumBaBaumba..." all a D bass note, with "Ringadongding" moving scalewise down to B, "Blue" being on A, the "Moon" being on G. When the two voices that fill in the chords fall in, they are moving it the little "chase' that I described above(third and fifth of the tonic etc)-- The business on the bridge is really no more than the the bass doing an alternating bass line in the oompa style on the song chords, he is on a D and the guys seem to fall in on A and F#,, which is to say, the they filling out the D chord with the third and the fifth-- There is a nice little bit of chaos at the end of the phrase, where the group is singing an A chord moving to a D7 chord and the Bass keeps going into another key-- The chords to this version of Blue Moon are not the same ones used for a standard version of the song, in the regular version, "And then there suddenly appeared before me" is an Am chord resolving to G--"Somebody whispered, "Please adore me" moves to a B/B6/E--the Marcels stick to the Am resolving to G again. Chords are: (Intro)|DD/DD| ||:GEm/AmDD:||3x |DD/DD| (Verse) ||:GEm/AmDD:||3x |GG/CC/GG/DD| (Bridge) AmAm/AmAm/GG/GG/ AmAm/AmAm/GG/GG/ AmAm/AmAm/GG/GG/ AA/AA/DD/DD(Eb bass) (Verse) ||:GEm/AmDD:||3x |GG/CC/GG/DD| I can't find the lyrics right off, but I'll bet someone has them-- |
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29 Aug 03 - 05:29 PM (#1010442) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: M.Ted Wait, I think I meant that they are doing a D7 instead of the Am on the bridge--anyway, Am7 and D7 are almost the same chord, so do what you please-- |
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29 Aug 03 - 06:42 PM (#1010462) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Amos John: Thanks for that wonderful list!! I was amazed how many I knew the tunes to! LOL! A |
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30 Aug 03 - 07:14 AM (#1010711) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Peter T. Sorry MTed, did not mean to get on your nerves. I was thinking about Barbara Ann, and got the groups wrong while typing, of course The Marcels. I have a great deal of difficulty getting the keys of songs, don't know why, drives my teacher crazy, so thanks. yours, Peter T. |
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30 Aug 03 - 12:16 PM (#1010791) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: M.Ted I was only kidding about the nerves part, Peter;-) --By the way, when I want to learn a song from a recording, I always convert it to an MP3 so I can play it from any point quickly and easily on my desktop--as bonus, for some reason, it is a lot easier to hear what is going on, for purposes of matching pitch and such, when it is played through my computer speakers--I've got my synthesizer keyboard plugged in to the computer as well, so it is easy to play along at the same volume, and it is nearly always perfectly in tune-- |
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30 Aug 03 - 12:42 PM (#1010796) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Peter T. Well, thanks for the analysis, I have to absorb it. At least I got the opening bunch of D's right -- I just thought the whole thing was in D -- but it was the dominant (duh) as I suspected would be there somewhere. yours, Peter T. |
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30 Aug 03 - 02:14 PM (#1010827) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: M.Ted Intros, especially for "standards" are usually based on the dominant harmony--that way, they create tension that resolves to the melody-- |
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01 Sep 03 - 10:24 PM (#1010875) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt It is entirely likely that all this Do-Wop stuff has crashed the entire website for three dayS!!! I hope you are happy Peter!!! It is not nice to fool with mother Folk! |
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01 Sep 03 - 10:25 PM (#1010876) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt having reconsidered, I am not sure the term mother folk is suitable for mixed audiences and I wish to hell I had never uttered such a term ! |
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02 Sep 03 - 04:47 AM (#1011041) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: GUEST,Fortunato up before the chickens Peter T, many thanks for a thread that reminds me of earlier Mudcat wonders. Jerry, good to see your words on my screen. Long time no talk. I, among many, appreciate the way the 'messengers' put together a song. jimmyt. Great breakdown of the harmonys. I've copied it to review later, I hope to learn from it, since all my harmonies are just 'what I hear in my head'. (No, the voices don't tell me to do things.) Your comment about chord voicings was not confusing, but rather quite illuminating. So what's a musician like yourself doing in Dalton, Ga? No doubt a lovely place, but shouldn't you be up in Memphis, or Muscle Shoals, or St Louis? Where are your shows performed? Great thread, guys, you turned on the light. Chance |
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02 Sep 03 - 09:13 AM (#1011156) Subject: Dion and the Belmonts From: Jack the Sailor Hope this adds to the converstaion Dion of Dion and the Belmonts was on NPR yesterday. They were certianly one of the better DoWop groups. Dion said that he used to go to the Apollo and listen to the horn sections. Then he'd get the neighbourhood guys to sing the horn parts of songs while he sang lead. |
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02 Sep 03 - 04:06 PM (#1011475) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Peter T. I take no responsibility for the crash of Mudcat. It was not I who put the bop in the bopshebopshebop, or the ram in the ramalangadingdong. yours, Peter T. |
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02 Sep 03 - 04:16 PM (#1011483) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt Jack theSailor, I have a CD by The Belmonts with lead singer Johnnie Maestro. It is a fabulous CD with some excellent music performed by some guys that remember the Eisenhower administration pretty well. One of my favorites is a suite of nothing but background parts from all the favorite Do-wop songs interlaced by harmonic segues. Very interesting piece of music. ALthough the music is pretty simple in its harmonies, a take nothing away from the folks performing it, as they frequently are fine musicians who are doing what is selling at the moment. |
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02 Sep 03 - 06:17 PM (#1011582) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Amos JimmyT: I t is with great pride that I bestow on you the title of First Mother Folker of the Mudcat. Wear the tee-shirt proudly!! A |
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02 Sep 03 - 08:11 PM (#1011672) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt Amos, I hve never received a title that I felt more deserving I humble in the shadow of other Mother Folkers that have come before that have paved my mother folking ways. |
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02 Sep 03 - 09:36 PM (#1011713) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: wysiwyg Wal (hair toss), I went to Folk College, so I guess I got a M.FolkEd. Must be good for something, at least in this company. ~Squeezil Plingsnapper, M.FolkEd. |
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02 Sep 03 - 09:59 PM (#1011722) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Amos So -- like many of us, you feel Folk Ed., huh?? Welcome to the club of the Definitively Folk Ed.!! :>) But at least you paid for getting Folk Ed.!! If I tried that I'd get in all sorts of trouble! A |
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02 Sep 03 - 11:11 PM (#1011752) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: wysiwyg The next year, they actually invited me to take the job of PUBLICIST for the event, in exchange for another MFolkEd for myself!! Now, how could I, in good conscience, have invited my friends (or potential friends) (or potential buyers of tickets to our concert series), to get MFolkEd? Well, I said no way! At our MudGathers, we award (for a modest fee), for the self-educated, a higher degree... yes, you can get the FolkEdPhD. ~S~ |
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08 Sep 03 - 09:37 PM (#1015125) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: wysiwyg Peter, just back from hours and hours of reviewing old gospel stuff (and I mean OLD, some from the "Fort" music documented at American Memory). I think that what you are looking for is in the organ part of these old classics. I'm hearing distinct doo-woppy harmonies, mouth music, and rhythms in the organ accompaniment, as well as in the boogie-woogie walking-bass piano parts.... That doo wop sound is mouth music standing in for all that texture. And the harmonies in doo wop seem to me to have been lifted from the gospel sound (no pay in gospel to speak of), and just secularized. IMO, the nonsense syllables of doo wop serve in place of these instruments and the interjected religious-fervor utterances. And then of course the white doo wop groups would have tagged on from there-- not the first time white folk borrowed a little black soul to spice up the joint. I could send you a disc with some MP3's. ~S~ |
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08 Sep 03 - 09:49 PM (#1015131) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Amos When you go from BS to PhD we know what it stands for. But when it is a Folk Ed PhD it must be something else...like a proctology exam? A |
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08 Sep 03 - 10:28 PM (#1015146) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: wysiwyg No, silly.... you just become a sort of grand old FolkEd FuddyDuddy. ~S~ |
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09 Sep 03 - 10:53 AM (#1015466) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: pattyClink JimmyT, do you recall the name of the record by the Belmonts. I did not realize Johnnie Maestro sang with them. What a voice! (for those who don't know the name--recall the old hit "The Worst that Could Happen". |
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09 Sep 03 - 11:13 AM (#1015486) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: jimmyt pattyClink, I am sorry I spoke too soon, I have 2 favorite Do-wop CDs one is Johnnie Maestro and the Brooklyn Bridge (excellent) and the other is The Belmonts Cigars, Candy, Acapella. this CD was done by the Belmonts sans Dion but darn good harmony! Sorry about the wrong info Can listen to MP3s of some cuts at Mainely Acapella website, do a search for the Belmonts sorry don't know how to do the blue clicky thing |
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09 Sep 03 - 02:05 PM (#1015605) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: Peter T. Hmm, organ harmonies. Have to go back to my gospel records and think about this.....yours, Peter T. |
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09 Sep 03 - 02:36 PM (#1015625) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: M.Ted Johnny Maestro was also the lead singer for The Crests, of 16 Candles fame. He still performs in the Philly/North Jersey area and, at least according to my trusty Jersey Shore tourist paper, was performing in Atlantic City last month-- |
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09 Sep 03 - 04:28 PM (#1015703) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: wysiwyg I have selected a bunch I found at Dovesong, to illustrate, if it's still up and letting people download MP3's. ~Susan |
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11 Nov 03 - 11:26 AM (#1051670) Subject: RE: Technical: How Do Doo-Wop Harmonies Work? From: wysiwyg OmiGAWDDDDDD... This is either the result of Peter T's studies... or the best study aid available. You can even isolate the parts. SECRETS OF DOO WOP: FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH ~Susan |