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28 Aug 03 - 01:46 PM (#1009717) Subject: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: GUEST,Clueless Joe My wife and I had been close friends with this woman since college(early 90's)--double dated, shared a house, travelled long distances to be there in times of need, long hours of laughing, singing(i play, they sing) talking, bad job sympathy, lending money to move back, you know, close--helped plan her big wedding a couple years back-- For some reason, they didn't make it to the alter, and she decided to travel--She eventually came back, but we haven't seen or heard from her, though we've tried--left messages with folks, called what we thought were current phone #s-etc. I very recently spoke about here with another friend who intimated that she had been in love with me all along, and just couldn't deal with it anymore-- I honestly don't understand what this means--Looking back, there was no sign of it, at least to me. My wife and I are touchy/feely people, so there were lots of hugs and kisses, but only friendly ones--I don't think I ever gave any impression that I was open to anything more. My feelings are very jumbled--I miss the friendship, even wonder a little about what might have been. I feel a little defensive about the time we spent together because suddenly it doesn't seem so innocent--worst of all, the pleasant memories of the times we all had aren't pleasant any more, because I know there was something else going on beside what I thought was going on. I'd appreciate any insight that anyone who has been through something like this might have. On either side. I am trying to understand, and it just isn't happening. Mostly, I wonder how and why someone holds on to that "In Love" feeling over a long period of time when it is not reciprocated-- I have been romantically interested in people(pre-marriage) and not had the interest returned, then gotten over it and gone on to be friends, workmates, etc. I've also had romances that didn't work out but worked as friendships--My experience is that feelings change over time, and you get over them and move on-- If you have any insights, pass them on-- |
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28 Aug 03 - 03:44 PM (#1009781) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: GUEST,pdc I think her feelings of love for you were complicated by her feelings of friendship toward you -- the ideal love is a combination of the two feelings, don't you think? Further, as the husband of her friend, you were/are unattainable, and there's nothing like forbidden fruit to keep a feeling going. She behaved honourably, and you must respect that. I think any moves toward resuming the friendship must be hers, as she is the one who has the problem and must decide how to resolve it. |
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28 Aug 03 - 04:18 PM (#1009799) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Desdemona I agree; these situations can be enormously complex, and different people are capable of dealing with a variety of scenarios. Human emotions don't give a damn about external symbols like wedding rings, or even intellectual concepts like logic & reason; the fact that your friend never gave any outward sign, or made any overt move towards you, shows that her intentions were never "dishonourable", whatever her internal feelings may have been. That says a lot about her character, as there are plenty of people who'd have behaved differently in the same position. My take on it is that she honestly valued your friendship enough to make a serious effort to cope with what must have been a terribly painful situation (ie, hanging out with you & your partner with no hope of her love being reciprocated---OUCH), and when she found she couldn't deal with it any longer, she rather nobly absented herself. So--I concur with the post above that any conciliatory moves need to be on her part, and that unless the subject is raised by her directly it should never be referred to. With any luck she's moved on & past her former feelings, but even if she hasn't, it's important to remember that the human heart is a funny little muscle; it's pointless to attempt to analyse another person's feelings, because at the end of the day our internal lives are a foreign country to even those with whom we are most intimate friends. BTW, I'm curious: did you share this info with your wife, and if so, what was her feeling about the matter? D. |
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28 Aug 03 - 04:42 PM (#1009809) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: GUEST,Clueless Joe My wife thinks that it has to do with the wedding more than anything else--Though she apparently knew of our friend's feelings long ago-- She says, "I wouldn't want to be involved with a man that wasn't attractive to other women--there'd be no one to take him away when I got sick of him!" |
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28 Aug 03 - 04:48 PM (#1009813) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Clinton Hammond " She says, "I wouldn't want to be involved with a man that wasn't attractive to other women--there'd be no one to take him away when I got sick of him!"" My wife was reading this over my shoulder and wants me to thank you... she now has a new mantra! LoL |
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28 Aug 03 - 04:52 PM (#1009817) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Desdemona You know, she's got a point there...LOL! D. |
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28 Aug 03 - 05:31 PM (#1009834) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: GUEST,Casual Observer Obviously she loved you enough not to try to wreak havoc on your marriage. I think that counts for a lot. |
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28 Aug 03 - 05:40 PM (#1009838) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: jimmyt Clinton, your wife must be a saint on earth! |
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28 Aug 03 - 06:32 PM (#1009859) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Helen The best book I've ever read about relationships is by Winnifred Cutler, Ph.D. called Searching for Courtship. She writes about these issues. She is a biologist and has specialised in behavioral endocrinology. She studies animal behaviour including courtship and she also started to look into how human behaviour has very strong links with animal behaviour, despite the human arrogant view that we are "above all that" due to our capacity to intellectualise. It's a very controversial book but it made so much sense to me when I found it a few years ago. Wish I'd read it when I was a teenager. It would have saved me a lot of grief. She writes about why someone will be attracted to someone who is attached in a marriage or committed relationship. If the one that person is attracted to was not in a committed relationship then they would probably be less attractive. So the statement above makes sense in the light of that book: " She says, "I wouldn't want to be involved with a man that wasn't attractive to other women--there'd be no one to take him away when I got sick of him!"" Not just for the time when you get sick of your partner, but also when you are looking for the partner in the first place. There is too much to say about that book here but there is a lot of info on it via the link above. Another comment, from my own observations: Sometimes I see people get into very long-term, long-distance relationships or falling heavily for someone who is in a committed relationship, and when they stick to this pattern over a long period of time then I start to ask myself whether this person wants a real, healthy relationship because if they did they would just go out and look for one. In some of the people I have observed I suspect that this behaviour provides a good cover for maintaining the life they actually prefer - which is to be outside of a real, healthy relationship. Sorry if I am stepping on any toes here, but Clueless Joe was wondering why the woman he is talking about would hang on for so long to a fruitless attraction. Helen |
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28 Aug 03 - 06:55 PM (#1009870) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Peg wise words Helen...what (or who)is unattainable is attractive not just because it is forbidden and thus taboo, but because, at the end of the day, one does not really have to "commit" to it...I wonder about my own past behavior in this regard. If I really wanted to have a relationship with someone who lived nearby, wouldn't I just be able to find one? As for Clueless Joe's situation, it's hard to comment not knowing the particulars, but friendship is always going to survive longer than romance or lust, generally speaking. If your friend does not contact you within a few months, send her a card letting her know you miss her friendship and would like to have a chat. |
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28 Aug 03 - 07:01 PM (#1009873) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Amos It's an old truism that the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence, but this is a special case where the grass is trying to figure out why it looks greener!! But it isn't really a function of the grass, it's a function of the looking, as the wiser women above have made clear. A |
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28 Aug 03 - 07:02 PM (#1009874) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Peter T. I think it is easily possible for someone to be in love with someone for their whole life, and not have it reciprocated, especially if you can remain somehow close as a "friend". I have had a number of confidants who have told me of their long stifled love for someone they are forced to remain friends with, in some cases because the other in the relationship is their best girlfriend. There are all kinds of barriers, not just those. I once was a good friend of a woman who was deeply in love with a man who was "a friend" (not me), and the reason why she never said anything? -- she was plain verging on ugly, and he was very handsome, and had many very beautiful women around him, one of whom he married and lives quite happily with. She knew she was out of his league, but it didn't matter, she loved him, she knew he had no interest in her. She said to me, once, bitterly, don't tell me about the shining of the inner soul crap. I have known other people who had a relationship for awhile that went bad, and they have decided to remain friends, and one of them is quite happy about it, and the other is not, and hangs around, being a good friend. There are terribly romantic, tragic stories going on all around us, all the time, not just in Harlequin romances. Unrequited longing is widespread. It is one of the reasons why, if you sit in the subways late at night, people look the way they do. yours, Peter T. |
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28 Aug 03 - 07:03 PM (#1009875) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: GUEST,Clueless Joe Say as much as you want, Helen-- Funny you should mention the long distance relationship thing--when we first met, she had a boyfriend who was off on a long term research fellowship in some god-forsaken place, followed by one who was in a doctoral program on another continent. Never met the husband-to-be because he was a foreign national finishing up a degree at home-- |
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28 Aug 03 - 07:11 PM (#1009881) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: GUEST,Clueless Joe Thanks also for your insights, Peg, the card has been tried. It has been more than two years, and we don't really know where she is anymore-- and Peter, she is quite attractive, a bright and gregarious person, and a fair cook, as well, no need for the Subways-- |
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28 Aug 03 - 07:16 PM (#1009885) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: katlaughing she was plain verging on ugly, and he was very handsome, and had many very beautiful women around him, one of whom he married and lives quite happily with what a sad commentary... I've got friends who've never been in a long-term relationship and I believe it is mostly because of what Helen points out...committing takes too much, causes one to have to examine how they feel about themselves, etc. and, too, I believe it can be a safety measure when one doesn't feel "good enough" or "worthy" of a relationship. A lot of people don't love themselves enough to have the confidence for a healthy relationship, so they choose forbidden fruit...unrequited love. kat |
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28 Aug 03 - 07:33 PM (#1009896) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Bill D when one believes that love will not be returned, and that no relationship is possible, the 'safest' course is what the lady did...say almost nothing and go away. It is hard to juggle interlaced personal relationships, and we read of failed attempts everyday..*sigh* A declaration of love, even a low-key one, put some obligation on the recipient to respond somehow, even if it is only to *gulp* and feel awkward. She was probably aware that you'd eventually learn about her feelings...and it IS a certain ego boost, hmmm? (there was a girl in high school that I had a monumental crush on...popular, beautiful...etc..and I heard many years later, that when my name came up in a conversation, she said "..I wonder why he never asked me for a date" tsk!...because I was scared witless, that's why! |
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28 Aug 03 - 07:45 PM (#1009906) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Sorcha I seriously loved another man while (and still)married to my husband. He knew it, I knew it and he was my daughter's Other Father. However, we both knew we could NOT live together, and never even tried to pursue a sexual relationship. He never married at all and killed himself 2 years ago come Dec. 9. Try that on for guilt. I am no longer guilty, but I am still angry. I know I must get past the anger, but it is soooooooo hard. |
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28 Aug 03 - 08:43 PM (#1009925) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Ely I was in love with a friend of mine when I was in college but I never told him because I knew we'd be a bad pair. We had too many nonproductive traits in common (shyness, total lack of assertiveness, some other things) and not enough complementary strengths. We would have hid at home all the time. We live on opposite sides of the country now and I've gotten out of being in love with him and settled for just caring for him very much as a person; I'm not even sure I know him well enough any longer to call him a close friend. I was miserable at the time but now I'm glad I didn't put the both of us in an awkward place and risk spoiling a great music friendship. I'm still attracted to guys who remind me of him, though, so I suppose I never did completely get over him. |
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28 Aug 03 - 09:31 PM (#1009947) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: GUEST,fred miller I'm such a jerk. I was in love with a girl who was living with my friend. They seemed a perfectly cultured couple--I still try to live like my first impressions of them. I knew I was a pretty messed-up person, just a kid at the time, couldn't recommend myself to anyone as a partner or mate, she was way out of my league and hardly seemed to notice me, and I would only be screwing things up all around, therefore I acted on it anyway. |
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28 Aug 03 - 09:57 PM (#1009956) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Stilly River Sage
Pardon me for saying it, but that is a bunch of hooey. At least from my perspective. Sometimes you just didn't get there first relationship-wise, or weren't quite the right one, but you don't just turn off love, you learn to live with a hole in your heart and try to let it heal over time. Being attracted to someone who happens to be already in a committed relationship happens. And if you can't get over it, you must often absent yourself from that party in order to get on with your life and away from the distraction. The absolute worst thing in the world is to offer sympathy if you know someone feels that way about you--as if they have an illness (they don't) or don't have free-will to be emotionally autonomous around you (they do). Or to delude yourself into thinking that a tiny little affair won't hurt them, might even help. It will only wound them deeply. Maintaining a respectful relationship is essential, speaking about it is okay if you both acknowledge it, because as you get older you have the perspective to realize that we need to cherish all of our good friends. Don't gloat if you find yourself in that situation, don't feel flattered. Understand that there, but for the grace of your god, go you. Those are shoes you don't want to walk a mile in. Trust me on this. SRS |
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28 Aug 03 - 10:07 PM (#1009961) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: GUEST,heric Fred you sound like all of my best friends! I only wish now that they were successful then. |
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29 Aug 03 - 12:43 AM (#1010022) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Thomas the Rhymer I am of a much different opinion SRS... The deep and loving attraction to a wonderful person of the 'other' gender is natural, yes, but needn't be a matter of potential ownership... or sex. Often, it is others who make it so by gossiping and feeling jealous... The notion of unrequited love is often intensely motivating, and has led many artists to transcendent works. It is precisely the lack of communication that leads to trouble, IMHO... and all that muck behind the scenes that lets politics lounge in it's poisonous moor... I believe that love felt can be responded to with love, and that great friendship can flourish within new and respectful boundaries... It seems to me, that distance and silence are somewhat prone to alienation when we are dealing with people who are alive and striving to improve. Strong attractions and deep feelings are not necessarily about sex, and can be fantastic muse motivators that benefit everyone in the artistic vicinity. It seems like a point of evolution to me, and I am committed to the deep and caring relationships that communication and caring can foster. ttr |
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29 Aug 03 - 01:23 AM (#1010032) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Benjamin Well, I had a funny remark, but Jimmy beat me too it! |
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29 Aug 03 - 03:15 AM (#1010056) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Helen SRS, I think you would need to read a bit more about what Dr Cutler said to really know the reasoning behind it. She compares human courtship to animal courtship, and in the wild the animals which have the most members of the opposite sex chasing them tend to be the most sought after as a mate, i.e. as the creature who *appears* to provide the best genetic mix for the reproduction of the species. If no-one is following the member of the opposite sex then the subtle message is that he/she is not as worthwhile as a mate as the critter which is the centre of attention. The reason that the book is controversial is that Cutler applies the same/similar concepts to human courtship, and in the context of the book (given that she explains it in detail and I am trying to summarise it based on having read it a few years ago) it does make sense. It is not necessarily the explanation for Clueless Joe's dilemma or for any experiences you have had. I'd prefer that you didn't dismiss it as "hooey" based only on my flimsy attempt to explain it. Helen |
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29 Aug 03 - 08:51 AM (#1010167) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: EBarnacle1 she was plain verging on ugly, and he was very handsome, and had many very beautiful women around him, one of whom he married and lives quite happily with One thing I have learned is that I would much rather be with someone who really wants to be with me than with someone who simply believes we look good together. The best thing anyone can do if they are interested in someone who is not in a committed relationship is to talk to the other person. Who knows what can develop. Even if the other is in a committed relationship, you might turn into friends. Full many a flower is doomed to blush unseen... |
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29 Aug 03 - 09:05 AM (#1010172) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Amos SRS speaketh sootheth, as far as the hole part, like unto one who has walked the walk thereof.... |
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29 Aug 03 - 09:27 AM (#1010184) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: GUEST,MMario Then again -- you can have the case where you "love" someone - but not be "in love" with them. Which are two *very* different scenerios! |
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29 Aug 03 - 10:55 AM (#1010243) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Peter T. Well, I don't know about biological theories or animal courtship theories, and I teach ecology for a living. Human beings are different: they can talk themselves into new worlds. One of the things revealed by this thread is that many people operate by Kantian rules -- treating other people not as means to your ends, but as ends in themselves. And people (here) wrestle with ethical dilemmas that have nothing to do with animal sociology or genetics except at the vaguest level (sociobiologists would disagree, but they are spreading their theory in order to promote their own fitness). Even the narcissism accusation is flawed -- I think it is the case that sometimes if you love someone you want what is best for them, and you decide that it isn't you. yours, Peter T. |
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29 Aug 03 - 10:58 AM (#1010246) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Stilly River Sage Yup, Amos, and based on the material provided, it was hooey. That's the trouble when extracting bits from books or summarizing in a given context. The idea has to be complete and concise or it leads to misinformation. Some of us feel entitled to analyze the discussion based on what we read in the thread. :) Hindsight is 20/20, as they say, and a suicide as resolution to interpersonal conflict was entirely unsatisfactory, but those are the bits I bring to this discussion. SRS |
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29 Aug 03 - 11:10 AM (#1010257) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Stilly River Sage point of clarification (I hit send too soon)--the friend committed suicide. No such consideration of that option came from my end of things. |
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29 Aug 03 - 04:30 PM (#1010413) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Thomas the Rhymer I'm sorry, SRS, for the sadness should not have been laid on you... Let me just say that your intrinsic virtues are still intact, and are in no way responsible... Let go of guilt... and embrace your ability to love! Blessings... ttr |
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29 Aug 03 - 04:49 PM (#1010424) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: GUEST Interesting thread here ! I am going to check out the books that mentioned animal / human behaviour. I find that really interesting, and I would love to study that, but have never come across a course that involves that. Going back to the first message, I am wondering if it wasn't just that she had a strong fancy for you ? I am probably wrong ( please tell me .. ) but, while I can feel a strong urge to be with someone I " fancy" I could never ( seriously ) call that being in love. I have only been in love with people that have at least kissed me ! No doubt I am wrong, and I suppose the fact that you two were friends maybe made it easier for the fact that she fancied you to become mixed up with the fact that she also loved you as a friend. |
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29 Aug 03 - 06:57 PM (#1010469) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Stilly River Sage No guilt, Thomas, there never was. And not all in that set of advice is one story, it's an amalgam of a couple of things. This thread has me thinking of friendships in the past when others said "So and so is really fond of you but is too shy to say anything," perhaps expecting that if I only knew, I might put the heartsick one out of their misery and get involved. One time in college a couple of friends of a guy were quite ardent that just what their friend needed was to get involved with me--he was still a virgin, they said, and somehow felt that their intervention was necessary for the well-being of their friend's love-life. I've never allowed myself to be seduced into those kinds of brokered relationships. They just look like trouble. SRS |
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29 Aug 03 - 08:33 PM (#1010510) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: GUEST High school was such crap. I worshipped a goddess from afar, thinking she was way out of my league (you know where this is going). Never asked her out for a date. Found out from a friend of hers years later that she fancied me as well. Go figure. All that time and neither one of us told the other how we felt. One of those unfathomable mysteries of the universe, how we bang about ceaselessly in the dark...feeling our way cluelessly, stumbling around without sense. |
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29 Aug 03 - 10:58 PM (#1010579) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: LadyJean One of the most useful things I learned in college is that, as a woman, I am a bad joke. I have fallen in love any number of times. I always keep it to myself. I have my pride thank you. Loving someone from a distance is painful, but not half as godawful as being told by the man you love, that he only wants to be friends, or, true hell, being told by the man you love that you are a bow wow. From my few actual relationships, I have learned that men take off like the proverbial bat out of the bad place when you say, "I Love You". Those three little words are more frightening to the American male than Internal Revenue Service, No More Football, or Bush's Third Term. |
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29 Aug 03 - 11:46 PM (#1010605) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: mg well that is one man that is better off far away..what a creep. mg |
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30 Aug 03 - 12:30 AM (#1010622) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Amos I am really tired of this thread's title. A |
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30 Aug 03 - 07:17 AM (#1010713) Subject: RE: BS: She was in love with me--I never knew it From: Peter T. Oh Amos, does this mean you don't, and never really cared (SOB)!? yours, Peter T. |
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30 Aug 03 - 11:16 AM (#1010769) Subject: Ego boost: unrequited love From: Stilly River Sage They can be changed on each individual "reply to thread." Is that one better, Amos? :) |