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29 Aug 03 - 06:10 PM (#1010450) Subject: Songs in 5/4 time From: GUEST,The_Cott Hi, This question has probably been answered before but I couldn't find anything in a quick archive search (please point me to the thread if there is already an existing one): I'd love to have a list of known traditional songs which are played in 5/4 time - please post any suggestions. -cjc |
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29 Aug 03 - 06:13 PM (#1010451) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: jimmyt Take 5 theme from Mission Impossible |
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29 Aug 03 - 06:32 PM (#1010457) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Amos I hav eenever heard anything traditional. The only well-known piece is Take Five itself. There are a few others, none of them trad. I'll see if I can find out any though. A |
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29 Aug 03 - 06:32 PM (#1010458) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Murray MacLeod I am laying my neck on the block here, but my guess is that there aren't any. Some songs have the occasional bar with an extra note in them ("Flash Company " is one that springs to mind, 3/4 but one bar of 4/4, but a trad song in 5/4 all the way ? I don't think so .... Murray |
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29 Aug 03 - 06:44 PM (#1010463) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Bill Hahn//\\ Check out much work by Dave Brubeck. One of the innovators in 5/4 time music Bill Hahn |
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29 Aug 03 - 06:44 PM (#1010464) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: C-flat Not traditional but here's another example of 5/4. |
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29 Aug 03 - 07:01 PM (#1010473) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Anglo I think there's at least one version of Bold Fisherman collected in 5/4, and I always think of Death & The Lady in 5/4 as well. Some of them might well be originally in 6/4, dropping a beat on a held note, And some have a 3/4 measure at the end of a line, so it (like much of trad English music) in not totally consistent. But there's a definite 5/4 feel. |
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29 Aug 03 - 07:12 PM (#1010479) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Malcolm Douglas A significant number of traditional songs found in Southern England in the early part of the 20th century were in 5/4, though opinions as to the best way of noting such things differed, as did opinions on how they came to be that way. Some collectors (typically those who just did a small amount out of interest, and weren't very experienced) were quite confused by that, and tended to worry that there was something wrong with their notation. There seem to have been clusters in particular districts, and some singers favoured them more than others. Mixed rhythms of 5/4 and 3/2 (or 6/4) were not infrequent, too. |
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29 Aug 03 - 07:32 PM (#1010487) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: GUEST,MCP If you want a few from a common source The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs has 2 entirely in 5/4: The New York Trader Ye Mar'ners All (a few others there mix 5/4 with other rhythms). Off the top of my head I think there are versions of The Duke Of Marlborough ("I am a general by my birth and Marlborough is my name") and of Bold Reynard The Fox ("Down by the green fields I did ramble in search of bold reynard the fox") in 5/4. I just did a quick search on my converted abc files of the DT and I think the only one completely in 5/4 is Confess Jehovah (CNFSJHOV). If you are really keen and I have some time I could look through some of the other standard books. Mick |
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29 Aug 03 - 07:45 PM (#1010492) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: GUEST,Mart Chris Wood likes songs in 5 time. The Rambling Comber (on Knock John) springs to mind, and I know he does others. |
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29 Aug 03 - 09:23 PM (#1010541) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Malcolm Douglas That'd be Robert Barratt's Rambling Comber, then (noted from him by the Hammond brothers at Piddletown, Dorset, 1905), rather than Henry Burstow's. Fair old bit of 5/4 in them parts. |
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29 Aug 03 - 11:02 PM (#1010581) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Thomas the Rhymer I believe that "Here's adieu to all judges and juries" by Martin Carthy is in 5/4... but maybe it's but one beat to the bar... ttr |
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29 Aug 03 - 11:49 PM (#1010608) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Malcolm Douglas Revival singers often modify rhythms, so what they do isn't necessarily a reliable guide to the way the songs were sung in tradition. Martin Carthy sings an arrangement of the set of Judges and Juries that W. P. Merrick noted, in 3/4, from Henry Hills down at Shepperton in 1900 (with some text added). It may be that only a small shift of emphasis is or was required to bring it into 5/4, of course; my knowledge of musical theory doesn't run that far. |
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30 Aug 03 - 01:18 AM (#1010633) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Thomas the Rhymer NOW you tell me... I would have, but now I'll have to relearn it in order to do it correctly. I have almost got M.Carthy's version... and the sweat has lingered on my brow... it's tough for me to do! After I get this 'interpretation', I'll try to do a proper version... I just love the way it comes across in 5/4 though! ttr |
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30 Aug 03 - 04:14 AM (#1010657) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: fat B****rd "Get To You" by The Byrds. Well, most of it.... |
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30 Aug 03 - 06:15 AM (#1010695) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: GUEST,MCP I've just been through a few books with the following results: From the Hammond/Gardner books: Wanton Seed yielded 2: The Murdered Servantman ("A famous farmer") - mrs Randall, Preston Candover(Hants) 1907 Sheffield Park - Moses Blake, Emery Down(Hants) 1906 Constant Lovers 2 versions of 1 song Duke of Marlborough (A)William Chubb, Beominster (Dorset) 1906 (B)Mrs Webb, Bath(Somerset) Marrow Bones had none From Sharp's Collections: Cecil Sharp's Collection of English Folk Songs (ed Karpeles) (Letters refer to versions when more than 1 tune) Lord Bateman E, M Barbara Ellen G A Sailor By My Right (Flame of Fire) (I should have remembered this-used to sing it) Sheffield Park A Sweet William (A Sailor's Life) B, E General Wolfe ("Bold Genr'l Wolfe to his men did say") B I Sowed Some Seeds A, B Sharp's English Folk Songs From The Southern Appalachians also had none There were several tunes that were mainly in 5/4 with odd bars of some other rhythm (for example in Sharp's English Songs most versions of The Bold Fisherman were mostly in 5/4. The Appalachians had none like this). Mick |
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30 Aug 03 - 09:04 AM (#1010729) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Jeri Songs in Odd Time Signatures - I started that in '01, but it's not exclusive to 5/4. I wrote one in 5/4 just to see if I could. [Click for MIDI] I like it (sounds hymnish), but I'm not sure it's legally 5/4 or some mixture. (Comments probably best - and welcome - by PM so as not to muck up this thread.) Which reminds me - is the hymn 'To Be a Pilgrim' in 5/4? Steeleye Span used the tune for 'Our Captain Cried All Hands'. |
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30 Aug 03 - 09:16 AM (#1010731) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Murray MacLeod Jeri, To Be a Pilgrim is in rousing 4/4 time. If indeed Steeleye Span did it in 5/4 then it brings me to a point which I was going to post anyway, namely, that I doubt very much whether any of the songs listed above in 5/4 started life off as 5/4. The fact that they are in manuscripts in 5/4 says more about the collectors and the performers rather than the songs themselves. Anybody who has seen June Tabor perform (to take but one example) will know exactly how some singers cannot resist the temptation to take a simple song and make it complicated. Murray |
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30 Aug 03 - 09:20 AM (#1010734) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Phil Cooper I thought Steeleye's version of False Knight On the Road was also in 5/4. Bert Jansch has an early song in 5/4 called Little Rabbit Run. At least that's what the notes on the LP said. Heights of Alma has at least one 5/4 measure in it, I believe. |
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30 Aug 03 - 10:14 AM (#1010751) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Jeri Murray, maybe you're thinking of a different tune than I am? Apparently, the proper name of the hymn is 'He Who Would Valiant Be". Here it is at this Cyberhymnal page, with embedded tune - 'St. Dunstan's' The tune I'm familiar with is the other one given on the page Monk's Gate (MIDI). This is definitely not 4/4. I don't know what the heck it's in though (brain's somewhere else) - maybe part 4/4 and part 5/4? |
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30 Aug 03 - 10:45 AM (#1010759) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: GUEST How about Sovay, Sovay (The Female Highwayman). I think A L Lloyd quoted the theory that these were originally 6/8 songs that people tried to fit to 4/4 tunes. Not sure I'm quoting that exactly right but it's an interesting theory. I think Lancashire Hornpipes that are in 3/2 are even more interesting. |
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30 Aug 03 - 11:08 AM (#1010766) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Malcolm Douglas The "Monks Gate" of the hymnals is named after the village near Horsham in Sussex where Harriet Verrall lived; it was her tune for Our Captain Calls that Vaughan Williams used for Bunyan's verses. He noted it in a mixture of 4/4 and 5/4. Cecil Sharp commented at the time that he had found a version in Somerset that was "as irregular in its rhythm". Although collectors at that time were particularly pleased to find modal tunes, they were, on the whole, inclined to be perplexed by unusual rhythms. Those with more advanced musical training, like Sharp and Vaughan Williams, set it down as they heard it (generally getting singers to repeat the song a few times if circumstances permitted, in order to be sure that they had meant to sing it that way) but others, less confident of their own abilities, seem aften enough to have noted songs in conventional signatures that might have been better expressed otherwise. Take Ella Bull, for example. She noted a number of songs from Charlotte Dann, who lived near her in Cambridgeshire (Lucy Wan appears in the Penguin book; the rest are unpublished). A proportion of them kept turning out to be in 5/4, and Miss Bull was quite worried about it; she thought that she must have misunderstood what Charlotte was doing. She turned for advice to Percy Merrick (mentioned above), who in turn put her in touch with Lucy Broadwood; who explained things for her. Not all collectors had such informed advice, and even the heavyweights were not always sure, where complex variation was concerned. My suspicion is that 5/4 was more common than published examples as notated (there is a lot of material from the time which exists only in MS collections) might suggest; but I don't know that much work has been done on that. |
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30 Aug 03 - 12:10 PM (#1010790) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Murray MacLeod Jeri, I am unable to download the score from tune from your link for some reason (my problem not the site's), and my soundcard isn't working, so I can't comment. The version we sang in school is the original text from the Pilgrim's Progress, and the first line is, in Tonic Solfa : d-,r m d| m.f s l -|s-s d |t d - - Whether this is St Dunstan's I don't know, but it is definitely in 4/4 Murray |
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30 Aug 03 - 12:54 PM (#1010802) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Jeri Murray, I THINK it may be a 4/4 version of the Monk's Gate tune, but I don't know Solfa, except for what's obvious. |
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01 Sep 03 - 10:42 PM (#1010892) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: M.Ted Odd metered tunes are quite common in Balkan folkmusic--including many in 5--in addition, there are a lot of German folkdances in odd meters, including five. The odd meters seem to be a holdover from pre-classical music, In the era of Classical music they smoothed out the rhythms in much the same way that it cleaned up the modal scales, so I kind of always have assumed that a lot of traditional melodies that we think of as being 4 actually had been smoothed over from 5 when they were assimilated into the musical mainstream-- In balkan music, the pulse of a 5 rhythm has the same feel as a heart beat, which is also the iambic foot in poetry--In odd moments, it strikes me that, given that the iamb is about the most common poetic foot, even in English verse, that that wobbly five pulse was once the most common one in music, as well, given that in ages past, verse tended to be sung-- I admit that this thinking is strictly supposition--However, back in my Balkan dance band days, we regularly stretched our Bulgarian sets by taking traditional "Western" melodies and reframing them in odd meters--Not only was"God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen" was perfect for playing as a Pajdusko(the Bulgarian 5/8 dance) it made the transition so smoothly that it was generally not recognized as a non-Bulgarian tune, even by serious Balkanophies-- |
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02 Sep 03 - 04:14 AM (#1011026) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Mark Cohen It's not exactly trad, but I seem to recall hearing a song called "The Three-Legged Waltz" that was in 5/4. I think it may have been written by Mason Williams. I'm too tired to search for it now. Maybe somebody can tell me if I got any of that right. Aloha, Mark |
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02 Sep 03 - 04:39 AM (#1011036) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Dave the Gnome Living in the past by Jethro Tull must be nearly old enough to be traditional ny now;-) It probably had Dave Pegg or someone playing on it anyway... Cheers Dave the Gnome |
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02 Sep 03 - 04:45 AM (#1011040) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Steve Parkes Theship indistress ("You seamen all that plough the ocean ...") is in the Penguin BOEFS in a minor key, and the Coppers did it to a major version of the tune. Steve |
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02 Sep 03 - 04:55 AM (#1011045) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: pavane Searching for Lambs (The Crystal Spring, Sharp & Karpeles) I have also seen one in 5/8 in Sharp's books, but I can't find it at the moment |
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02 Sep 03 - 05:14 AM (#1011052) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: GUEST,Bob Lilley Check out "This is the truth sent from above" in the Oxford Book of Carols. Also, Steeleye fans will remember their setting of "The Weaver and the Factory Maid": I don't know if it was originally in this tempo but I wouldn't be suprised if it was, it fits so well. |
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02 Sep 03 - 05:29 AM (#1011061) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: treewind The tune for that version of The Handloom Weaver and The Factory Maid is based on a Welsh tune which I think (I'll check this later) is also in 5/4. Somebody mentioned 3/2 - The Lass from Hexhamshire is a fine example of that. I haven't heard any songs in the more syncopated 3/2 rhythm of some of the old Lancashire Hornpipes. Anahata |
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02 Sep 03 - 06:39 AM (#1011091) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: GUEST,MCP Steve - The Ship In Distress in Penguin is one of the songs mostly in 5/4. It has a bar of 3/2 in the middle, a bar of 4/4 in the middle and goes out with three bars of 4/4. It could however easily be sung in 5/4 throughout (dropping a 1/4 note rest in the 3/2 and converting two 1/8 notes to 1/4s in most of the 4/4 bars.) (This - and the reverse of converting 5/4 songs to 3/2 or 6/4 - is true of many of them). The Sharp collected version referred to in the Penguin notes, from James Bishop of Priddy and "in many respects the grandest air' which he had found in that county", was in 3/2 througout. Mick |
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02 Sep 03 - 09:15 AM (#1011160) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: nickp From VERY distant memory 'The Murdered Serving Man' - performed by Chris Foster (I think) - the one that goes Now a famous(?) farmer as you shall hear He had two sons and one daughter dear Her servant man she much admired None in the world she held so dear... |
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02 Sep 03 - 10:02 AM (#1011192) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: stevethesqueeze for the life of me I can't understand 5/4 time. Could anyone enlighten me as to how one would count it? I have exhausted my ability trying to work it out!! stevethesqueeze |
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02 Sep 03 - 10:04 AM (#1011194) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: nickp I've always done it 123,12 123,12 but I expect that's wrong. |
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02 Sep 03 - 10:05 AM (#1011196) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: GUEST,KB Come to that - anyone got a link to somewhere with explanations of various timings. I don't read music properly & don't have a clue of how to identify a time signature - heeellllpppp. |
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02 Sep 03 - 10:52 AM (#1011237) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: treewind It may be 123,12 or 12,123 depending on the tune. (often written as 3+2 or 2+3 respectively Take Five is 3+2 The Gas Almost Works (John Kirkpatrick) is 2+3 The Weaver and Factory Maid changes mid tune! Balkan dance tunes are a bit different - often the time sig is in quavers (half notes) so Pajdusko Horo (5/8) is 2+3 but it's really 1+1½ - short and long beats. As to identifying timing - it's how many evenly-timed pulses you can count between strong beats. The first beat of the bar tends to be the strong beat. Easier said than done - you need somebody to show you, with typical tunes, so you get the feel for it. Sometimes the things that you count come a bit fast! (anything with 8 instead of 4 on the bottom of the time signature, for example) Anahata |
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02 Sep 03 - 12:19 PM (#1011282) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: fogie As I walked out one may morning 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 One may morning betimes 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 I met a maid from home had strayed 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 Just as the sun did shine 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 |
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02 Sep 03 - 12:38 PM (#1011303) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: M.Ted In balkan music, you think, as mentioned above, in terms of long and short-- Say "QuickSlow QuickSlow quickslow quickslow--Quickslow quickslow quickslow quickslow" with the stress on the "slow" and you've got the feel--to actually play it on say, a guitar(or tamboura), you've got to strum all five counts, "down-up down-up-down"--with stress on the third beat--The stress on the third beat is so strong that you could hear it as an even beat of about 80 beats per min, with each beat broken into quintuplets(you actually play this, about 400 beats per min)-- The German dances(zweifackers, I think they are called) are just like playing a measure of 2/4 followed by a measure of 3/4-- |
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02 Sep 03 - 02:10 PM (#1011377) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: GUEST,MCP nickp - yes to The Murdered Servantman, version from Marrowbones in 5/4 as I noted above. Mick |
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03 Sep 03 - 05:17 AM (#1011865) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: The_Cott Wow I seem to have spurned some debate here. Thanks for all the contributions. It is my (very uninformed) opinion that 5/4 is actually a rather natural rhythm to sing in English, especially the 1-2 1-2-3 form of it. The songs I know in 5/4 (Bold Fisherman, Mariners All, There Was a Young Farmer) all lump along in such a natural way that I wouldn't be at all surprised if the rhythm had formed a greater part in the English tradition and some of these rhythms may have been bent into 6/8 or 4/4 to suit the prejudices/narrow music horizons of some of the collectors. Keep playing those tunes -cjc |
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29 Jun 05 - 06:54 AM (#1512320) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Torctgyd I was told at school, so it must be true, that spoken English was almost naturally in Iambic Pentameter. Now I don't really understand what Iambic Pentameter means (I only really like poetry when it's sung to a good tune) but, and I'm guessing here, it would naturally lend itself to tunes in 5/4. So perhaps un-educated (musically speaking) English singers would tend to have drifted into 5/4 time. On the face of it it does seem to make sense that the rythmns of the spoken language would influnce the rythmns of the songs. Does this show itself in the songs of other languages? T PS Searching For Lambs must be my favourite folk song, it seems to roll along so sweetly. |
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29 Jun 05 - 08:41 AM (#1512386) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: woodsie Spunk Rock (Box) by those Welsh acid heads MAN. It's in a weird pounding 5/4 time and very psychedelic!!! PS Dave Pegg had zilch to do with "living in the past" The line up was Anderson, Bunker, Cornick & Barre. |
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29 Jun 05 - 08:55 AM (#1512399) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: GUEST,Whistle Stop Several years ago I sat down to learn a solo fingerstyle guitar arrangement of the hymn A Mighty Fortress Is Our God off of an Ed Gerhard CD. In the process I was surprised to discover that the tune was in 5/4 time. I don't know if it is always played that way, but it sounded very natural, and very much like other renditions I had heard over the years (including its use as the opening music for the children's claymation religious program Davey And Goliath, which Americans of a certain age will remember). |
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29 Jun 05 - 09:09 AM (#1512414) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: The Fooles Troupe I seem to remember the version in the hymnals I used on the pipe organ was 4/4. Would be interested to see the dots for this alleged 5/4 version... |
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29 Jun 05 - 01:39 PM (#1512599) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Nigel Parsons Of course, if we wander away from folk there's alway Holst. "Mars, the bringer of war" from the Planet Suite. Which neatly answers that old question, "How many beats in a Mars Bar?" Nigel |
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29 Jun 05 - 01:52 PM (#1512613) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Tradsinger The one that springs to mind is "The Bold Fisherman", usually sung by revival singers in 3/4 a la Young Tradition but more commonly 5/4 by source singers. The way I sing Gamekeepers lie Sleeping has a lot of 5/4 bars in it. Gwilym |
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29 Jun 05 - 02:40 PM (#1512645) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: GUEST,Tinker in Chicago We do "Drowzy Maggie" in 5/4. It's fun to watch the audience trying to clap along. |
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29 Jun 05 - 09:03 PM (#1512912) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Margret RoadKnight "I'm Gonna Leave You" by Rudy Stevenson (guitar & flute with Nina Simone) |
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30 Jun 05 - 03:54 AM (#1513071) Subject: RE: Songs in 5/4 time From: Wilfried Schaum Zweifacker sounds like doublefucker for German ears, it is "Zwiefacher" = double one; after every two bars the metrum changes |:1/2 1/2 1/3 1/3:| Most famous German example of 5/4 is Prinz Eugen. The song was written after the storming of Belgrad (in the Balkans) during the Turkish wars. The stress changes depending on the flow of the text, mostly 12 123 or 123 12, sometimes 1 12 12 |