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BS: Commemorating 11 September

10 Sep 03 - 11:16 AM (#1016307)
Subject: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar

1. Open a bottle of Chilean wine

2. Do a Google search on "Salvador Allende coup"

3. Read on

10 Sep 03 - 01:07 PM (#1016360)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: InOBU

I am off to the dedication of the plaques for the lads who were lost from Engine 33, and Ladder 9 (song posted on the cat) and then that evening to a silent meeting (Quakes) As to the other tragidy, if I drank, I'd offer the above toast as well.\ La lucha continua, and Remember brave folks who gave their lives selflessly as well.

PS well here it is again...

Engine 33
Words Lorcan Otway tune Bold Robert Emmitt all rights reserved

Flashing lights and no sirens, all emergencies over
The motorcade passes, with the heroes who fell
And all on the streets stop, and in silence bear witness
Such sorrow and thanks, no mere words can tell

Who ever can forget the gray ash covered engines
coming back from the alarm like no other before
Such pain for survivors, to embrace all the families
Of comrades so loved, now on that distant shore

Chief Downey, Father Mike, First Deputy Feehan
Peter Ganci and many, too many, to tell
Your memories we'll honor We n'er will forget you
You brought hope to the horror when the two towers fell.

Remember Tim Stackpole, how he prayed in the wreckage
In that terrible fire that took two of his friends
So horribly injured he fought to recover
To return to his ladder and to die with his men

So now to acknowledge, just one of the many
Engine 33 Ladder Company 9
There's 10 empty places around their table
10 fallen brothers who fell on the line

Remember Kev Pfiefer, Mike Boyle and Keith Maynard
Jeff Walz, Brian Bilcher, Robert King, Dave Arce
Gerarde Baptiste, Robert Evans, John Tierney,
10 lost out of 40 from one company

And though we mourn them, they're still on the job now
Though they have fallen, they're still standing tall
Their spirit will bolster their sisters and brothers
Their unseen presence will answer each call

So tell all your children to tell all their children
never pass a firehouse without a brief pause
And thank all the heroes who work on those engines
Each day they risk all in humanity's cause

Scales of Revenge

Words Lorcan Otway tune Bonny May all rights reserved.

Oh America's fired a cruise missile, and it's killed my brother's son
Now I must lay my hopes aside and learn the way of the gun
Oh why and how can they do such things, why bring such grief to me
Now I will go and seek revenge for my faith and my dignity

Oh some men from Saudi Arabia, have killed my old school friend
He was never a part of any war, why bring him this awful end?
Oh why and how can they do such things, why bring this grief to me,
Now I will go and seek revenge for my friend and for my country

Oh the helicopters came last night, and we fled into the dark
But American bullets flew from above, killing my wife, my love,
Oh why and how can they do these things, why bring this grief to me,
As generations of Afghans before, I'll defend this poor country

My son, my son, he will never return, in a foreign war he lies slain
He was fighting for his home and hearth, on some barren Afghani plain
Oh why and how can they do these things, why bring such grief to me
Send troops, send troops, to far Iraq, to stop this insanity

And here I sit and I watch the world, as blood is shed for blood
And I can only wonder why and how can we stem this flood
Oh why, oh how can they do such things, on justice's bloody path,
And who will be left to say in the end, we've balanced the scales at last

Don't stop, don't stop for our martyred dead,
or one inch of blood soaked soil,
But stop, oh stop for the love of your child, in fields of hope now toil
Oh how, oh why can't we begin, by putting grief behind
We can not ever pay for the dead, by paying another in kind.

10 Sep 03 - 01:32 PM (#1016373)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: GUEST,heric

Thank you for thoughts and kind words, Pluiméir. May you live in peace and prosperity.

10 Sep 03 - 01:37 PM (#1016376)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: GUEST,pdq

Will someone, not a "guest" please, restart this as a serious subject?

10 Sep 03 - 01:47 PM (#1016381)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: ard mhacha

Lest we forget, On September 11th 1649, Oliver Cromwell slaughtered 4000 men women and children in Drogheda County Louth , after the slaughter he transported thousands of Irish citizens to the West Indies.
Cromwell stated, "I am persuaded that this is a righteous judgment of God upon these barbarous people". Ard Mhacha.

10 Sep 03 - 01:47 PM (#1016383)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: GUEST,heric

I was serious. So was Larry. It can start as a flame, but needn't end that way.

10 Sep 03 - 01:52 PM (#1016385)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: Stilly River Sage

What I see here is a person with a name and he is marking a legitimate coup that happened in the nation of Chile on the same date (different year) as the World Trade Center airplane disaster. I haven't visited the site he directs us too, I was aware of the coup before this. But I'll go take a look at where he has called our attention.

10 Sep 03 - 01:56 PM (#1016387)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September

It was a good day for William Wallace for that matter. Lots of dead English. So what shall we best commemorate?

10 Sep 03 - 02:20 PM (#1016398)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: Mark Clark

I think An Pluiméir Ceolmhar was reminding us that, in addition to the terrorist attacks of 2001, Sept. 11 is the anniversary of the U.S. inspired coup in Chile as described in today's Guardian piece.

I will mourn all victims on this day whether killed by terrorists or governments or by &$8220;Capitalism's Invisible Army” and it's operatives. Two years ago I was canoing down the Kickapoo River with my daughter and her husband and children. I wish I could do that tomorrow as well, I can't think of a better tribute to peace and freedom.

      - Mark

10 Sep 03 - 02:36 PM (#1016408)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: Raedwulf

ard - Lest we forget, Cromwell didn't do the English many favours either. At least, not if you weren't of his narrow school of christer dogma...

He was without fear or favour, he persecuted most everyone that disagreed with him! Even with the rampant Irish Nationalism that often pervades your posts, you can't really blame the English for Cromwell. A large proportion of the English never wanted him either, & fought against him! For several years.

Otherwise, I largely side with heric & Larry. It's almost as good a day to commemorate the slaughter of those that did their duty & those that died as uncomprehending innocents as the Eleventh Hour of the Eleventh Day of the Eleventh Month...

I only wish everyone (but especially the 'leaders' of any community/society) might learn from their past. Alas! Most 'leaders' see only what they want to see, not what really happened...

10 Sep 03 - 03:13 PM (#1016431)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: InOBU

Well some one should post Blood on the Pitch for Victor Hara and the Chilleans killed in the counter revolution, and I don't have a good one of mine for Cromwell, but here is one almost on target for that...
There is a lot to remember tommorow... No passaran.


Lough Neagh -
Words Lorcan Otway Tune Sally Monroe

Come all ye good people, who toil on the land
and attend to these verses, that you might understand
how an ancient injustice, commenced long ago
still enslaves all the fishers who sail from Ardboe

My name's Brian Hannon, I'm a fisher b' trade
in the town of Ardboe I was born and raised
and well I remember that very first day
that I sailed with my father to fish on Lough Neagh

How bitter for Ulster was fifteen ninety-four
for the loss of our land after the nine year war
Tyrone, Tyrconnell, and McGuire swept away
While our forefathers clung on to harvest Lough Neagh

What cold hearted nation, could remember with pride
the slaughter of parents with babes by their side
When Arthur Chitchester despoiled Lough Neagh's shore
enslaving the fisherfolk, there evermore

All around Dungannon, whole families he slew
he burned all the crops and wee cottages too,
while no reparations could this injustice repay
his descendents extort rent from us to this day

Now we toil on these waters unjust rent to pay
to Anthony Cooper, who now claims Lough Neagh
We toil that he might give one million pounds
to his gold digging third wife if she pouts or frowns

Now pollution has darkened the waters we need
for no absentee landlord could e're fully heed
the loving concern that it takes every day
to preserve the sweet gifts of our treasure, Lough Neagh

For these waters we love, for they've given us life
It's the love that a man only feels for his wife
for these waters have fed us from our people's first day
we're as wed to these waters as the fish of Lough Neagh

10 Sep 03 - 03:17 PM (#1016436)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: InOBU

Election Day
Footnote to this song... Arthur, mentioned below fought in Viet Nam. I ran into him three days ago. He was in a terrible state. His 23 year old son had just returned from active duty in Bhagdad. He was in an unreachable depression, as Arthur said the boy who left never came back. He is rethinking his calls for war...

Words Lorcan Otway tune traditional...all rights reserved...

Arthur and I, we went out very early...
so early in morning, before the dawning of the day
we went out to work the polls, we were feeling light and cheerful
And feeling as hopeful as we saw the sun's first ray

As we worked the bright sidewalks,
not long after the sun rise
we saw a plane fly o're so low we all did say
that we hoped all on board, would land somewhere in safety
and as we worked, each one of us did pray

Now what can the matter be, where are those cars going,
flashing lights and now ambulances as well,
and that look in all the faces, that spread from one to another
and then the story, too horrible to tell.

What of our loved ones, who work beneath those towers,
We watched a white cloud rise up in the cloudless sky
and we soon understood, that this cloud marked a pyre
Where so many of our neighbors, for madness would die

I walked through the streets, hearing only wailing sirens,
the gritty taste of gypsum, in my mouth and in my eye
And I saw the far off look in the eyes of all the people
as we watched the day unfold, and could only wonder why

Who ever can forget, the cry of hundreds of whistles
as oxygen tanks alarms, marked where the heroes lay
Each firefighter and police, who ran into such danger
in spite of the terror, that others might get away.

Now Arthur calls for war, and I still pray for peace
I can't believe that killing, will make us safe again
We can never end by killing, what killing has created
No war has ever ended wars, can this madness ever end?

Lets fire up cold furnaces in the steel mills of Bethlehem
out in Pennsylvania, in towns once built by steel,
and we'll reforge the girders, from the ruins of the towers
And raise a World Peace Center, this ruined world to heal.

10 Sep 03 - 04:15 PM (#1016460)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: McGrath of Harlow

A good letter from community peace activist Bob Holman in today's Guardiuan, reminding us of another event that took place on a September 11th, and one that is particularly relevant:

The tragedy of the twin towers will be rightly recalled on Thursday. I doubt if the media will mention September 11 1906, when Mahatma Gandhi initiated non-violent, passive resistance as a means of social reform. The sufferings of the US were followed by calls for revenge and a hatred which contributed to the many deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq. The message of Gandhi was about forgiveness, self-sacrifice and peace. 1906 has more to teach us than 2001.
Bob Holman
Easterhouse, Glasgow

10 Sep 03 - 05:37 PM (#1016502)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: katlaughing

Thank you for that, McGrath. Wellspoken on his part.

I mourn for our country and the carte blanche 9-11 gave to Bush et alia to run it into the ground. We lost much more than we knew on that day two years ago and we are losing more of it, everyday. It is time for some kind of revolution, I wish it could be as Ghandi's.

Best thing I can think is to urge everyone to VOTE the bastards out. THAT, imo, would serve the victims of 9-11 much more than anything else we can do.

Larry, thanks for sharing your songs, again.


10 Sep 03 - 06:32 PM (#1016530)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: McGrath of Harlow

Here's an article about Bob Holman, who wrote that Guardian letter about Gandhi, who is really something. (I've never met him, but I'd love to someday.) It's from The Big Issue, which is a magazine produced for homeless people to be able to sell on the streets and get back on their feet):

Glimpse of The Future - Bob Holman's Story

In a corner of Easterhouse is a quarter-mile square of land that stands as a microcosm of the past, present and future of the sprawling Glasgow estate. Derelict and squalid council houses, scarred by neglect and graffiti, and rundown school buildings sit next to new developments that are changing the landscape and outlook for residents. In the sunshine outside one close lies a memorial to a young man who recently lost his life - football tops, scarves and flags and flowers. A truly tragic death providing fodder for those who wish to cast a shadow over the housing scheme. In the sunshine, the real story lies in a block of flats where the community works feverishly to preserve and enhance the lives of residents.

Behind a large yellow door are walls painted by children, thought-provoking art depicting broken bricks and inner thoughts. Local residents busy themselves, simply helping out; it is the heart of community activity and provides hope. And, at the centre of it all, geographically speaking, of course, is 65-year-old Bob Holman...

And the rest of the article is on the other side of that link.

10 Sep 03 - 09:01 PM (#1016610)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: Bobert

Not to be a part pooper here, but, hey, why can't we find out about how 9-11 happened? Is that too much to ask. Let a airliner fall into the ocean off the New England coast and they drag every danged nut and both back and rebuild it in a harger somewhere but let 19 Saudi's run airplanes into buildings and no one seems to want to know hao it happened???.... Duhhhh, I may be a dumb Wes Ginny hillybilly but jusy whats wrong with this picture????...

We should be commentoratin' this horror by demandin' a complete investigation on who knew what and why they let it happen...

Anyone ever wonder why the only airliners flyin' over the US the day after 9-11 were Saudi airliners picken up bin Ladin's family memebers and carryin' 'em to safety?

Anyone ever wonder why there's so much bin Ladin money in Bush I's bank account?

Sorry to mess up the gatherin'...


10 Sep 03 - 11:57 PM (#1016667)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: Janice in NJ

Larry, thank you for reminding us of Victor Jara (not Hara), the Chlean folk singer and song writer who was tortured, mutilated, and murdered during the coup in Chile on September 11, 1973. I had the pleasure of hearing Victor in person on his one visit to the USA. Pete Seeger brought him out as a guest to do one song. It was Me Gustan los Estudiantes. I recall how much Victor reminded me of Phil Ochs.

11 Sep 03 - 01:00 AM (#1016697)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: Barry Finn

Hi Bobert, one reason we can't get to the bottom of what happened is that the Bush machine refuses (actually fought tooth & nail) to give any of the investigation committees any info.

Bastard, what's he thinking anyway or what's he hiding?

11 Sep 03 - 01:05 AM (#1016698)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: Amergin

Well....September 11 has been commemorated in my family for 29 years now.... ;)

11 Sep 03 - 01:22 AM (#1016703)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: katlaughing

Happy Birthday, Amergin!

11 Sep 03 - 09:23 AM (#1016888)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: GUEST,denise:^), not at home...

My family and I have celebrated Sept. 11 annually, for the past 42 years, as well...

11 Sep 03 - 10:09 AM (#1016928)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: Beardy

Thanks to An Pluiméir Ceolmhar for starting this as it was a topic I was going to broach.

If anyone wants an alternative song for an session you may be at tonight this might fit the bill.

(Don Lange)

The night hawk flies and the owl cries as we're driving down the road
Listening to the music on the all night radio show
The announcer comes on says, "if you've got ideas I'll file a patent for you.
What good's an idea that's not in the store, makin' a buck or two?"

We drive to the town but the shutters are down and the all night restaurant closed
It's the land of the free we've got booze and TV and tramps in the telephone booths
The stars and the trees and the early spring breeze say forget what assassins have
Take the good soil in the palm of your hand and wait for tomorrow's sun

It's a long way from the heartland to Santiago Bay
Where the good doctor lies with blood in his eyes and the bullets read USA

A truck driver's life is a very strange life driving down the road
Carrying the goods, all the copper and wood. That's what makes American great
The dollars like swallows fly to the south where they know they've something to gain--
Allende is killed--the trucks are rolling again

The night hawk flies and the owl cries as we're driving down the road
The full moon reveals the houses and fields where good people do what they're told
A poet lies with coins in his eyes, there's no one around him to mourn
Who needs a poet who won't take commands, who'd rather make love than war?



12 Sep 03 - 12:28 AM (#1017334)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: Amergin

Thanks, katdarling! it's been a nice one....

happy birthday to you too Denise!

12 Sep 03 - 07:51 AM (#1017487)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar

Not a troll or an incitement to flame, but a gentle hint that people in the US who genuinely wonder "How could they do this to us?", "Why do they hate us?" etc. should learn more about what has been done on their behalf in Latin America, the Middle East etc.

The concentration of deaths in time and place in 2001 was spectacular, but many more lives have been destroyed through the subversion of democratically-elected governments around the world where these governments were perceived to be hostile to US interests. Apart from what the CIA was was up to in Chile under Kissinger's direction, several US coporations (Pepsi-Cola and IBM were mentioned) reportedly offered the CIA substantial amounts of money for covert operations to bring down the Allende government. Then there's the "School of the Americas" (which I gather has recently been rebranded), where "intelligence-gathering techniques" are taught.

Belgian public TV handled the commemoration well last night. On their main French-speaking channel they had a programme about 11 Sept 2001, while on the minor channel they devoted the whole evening to the 30th anniversary of 11 Sept. 1973, with a few documentaries and studio discussions featuring historians and Chilean refugees. They didn't play up the US role, focusing rather on the nature of the Pinochet régime and attempts to bring him to justice, and how Chile has largely failed to come to terms with its past.

One particularly rich moment was a film of a meeting between Pinochet and Thatcher while he was waiting for his extradition case to be heard. She had incidentally hired the crew to film the meeting, so she wasn't exactly ambushed by hostile media. She had the gall to say to Pinochet "I am very much aware that you brought democracy to Chile". That was too much even for Pinochet's interpreter, who after a moment's embarrassed silence rendered her words as "You brought in a new era for Chile".

Several other stations available here also ran programmes on both anniversaries.

12 Sep 03 - 01:52 PM (#1017632)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: McGrath of Harlow

It's spelt Victor Jara - but if course it's pronounced Hara, since it's Spanish. Perhaps InOBU has had too much experience of the way people tend to mispronounce names like that.

BBC4 TV ran an excellent documentary last night about "the other September 11th" - focussing on what actually happened on the day, with contributions from people who were involved on both sides. (But not including any contributions from the CIA. Hamlet without the prince...)

12 Sep 03 - 02:27 PM (#1017662)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: GUEST,heric

It amazes me that people can confuse Osama bin Laden's intentions and actions with things like Chile, as much as it amazes me that people can confuse Osama bin Laden's intentions and actions with things like Iraq.

12 Sep 03 - 03:15 PM (#1017708)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: InOBU

HHmmmmm Heric.... I am not sure what you mean, though perhaps that nations are things, though I think of nations as ideas, is there really an Iraq, a Chile, a USA? Not sure, Larry

12 Sep 03 - 03:53 PM (#1017737)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: McGrath of Harlow

I don't think anyone has "confused" the events of the September 11th 1973 and September 11th 2001. Both involved evil and callous conspiracies and have caused enormous death and suffering.

But it is as well to remember that there are other victims of atrocity as well as those who died on that day in 2001, and that the authors of that are not the only terrorists around.

12 Sep 03 - 11:21 PM (#1017970)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: LadyJean

One might mention that Richard Nixon, who was president of the United States on September 11 1973, was a disgraced ex president on September 11, 1974.
One might also mention that the young men who crashed those planes were the sons of middle class and even wealthy Arab families, not Chileans.
Last year, the East Liberty Presbyterian Church commemorated September 11 with a memorial service including a woman cantor, from one of the local temples, and a Muslim immam. It was very moving. I understsand Bush wants to call 9/11 Patriot's Day. I hope to gracious it doesn't catch on!

When mother and I were in England, I found myself standing on the place where Oliver Cromwell was interred in Westminster Abbey. I did a couple of jig steps.

13 Sep 03 - 05:51 PM (#1018315)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: McGrath of Harlow

That'd be the place in Westminster Abbey where he was interred when he died - the body was later dug up and, after a symbolic execution, probably buried under the gallows at Tyburn, near Marble Arch station.

So that'd be the place to go to dance on Cromwell's grave.

14 Sep 03 - 07:12 AM (#1018542)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: ard mhacha

A little reminder for Raedwulf, see further up this Thread.

A delegation from Oliver Cromwell`s home town of Huntingdon in England visited Drogheda last Thursday, on the anniversary of the massacre to apoligise for the action`s of their town`s most famous son.

Yesterday the group visited Wexford, the other site of a massacre by Comwell`s troops.

Drogheda counciller Frank Godfrey said yesterday that councillers were talking about twinning the two towns.
Godfrey said that a group from Huntingdon came to Drogheda a year ago on the anniversary of the maccacre to ask fogiveness for what had happened in 1649, "The whole thing has been wonderful and has brought people together in a surprising way". Ard Mhacha.

14 Sep 03 - 12:24 PM (#1018649)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: McGrath of Harlow

Thanks for posting that ard macha. Reconciliation takes a longtime sometimes, but it's worth waiting for.

14 Sep 03 - 01:14 PM (#1018671)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: Amos

I'm waiting to hear about the delegation from the mountains of Afghanistan coming to apologize for the destruction on the 11th of September 2001.



Hmmm. Maybe they aren't coming?


14 Sep 03 - 02:56 PM (#1018722)
Subject: RE: BS: Commemorating 11 September
From: ard mhacha

Patience Amos, look how long Drogheda and Wexford had to wait. Ard Mhacha.