Origins: The Rosabella

15 Sep 03 - 09:58 AM (#1019151)
Subject: Origins: The Rosabella
From: wudzi

Can anyone tell me who authored The Rosabella? On the Warp Four website:

http://www.iol.ie/~didly-didly/warp5.html

it says:

"We know virtually nothing about this song, it must be in a collection somewhere, but we haven't found it yet. It might be modern? Perhaps it's a prime example of the folk process at work? From it's structure it certainly sounds like a capstan song. Sean first heard it on the radio in the 1970s, with a tuba belting out an oom pah pah".

I can't find the words in the Digital Tradition database, funnily enough, and the only version I found on the web seemed incomplete and inaccurately traanscribed. Can someeone please point me towards a more authoritative text?

Cheers,

wudzi

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15 Sep 03 - 10:09 AM (#1019161)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: George Seto - [e-mail]

Do you mean this song?

Roseabella

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15 Sep 03 - 10:19 AM (#1019172)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: George Seto - [e-mail]

On the web, all the various versions I have found seem to be copies of the one here at the DT.

I haven't tried a search with your spelling yet.

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15 Sep 03 - 10:50 AM (#1019203)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: masato sakurai

Thanks, George. "Rosabella" on Wickford Express's Away, You Santy!: Traditional Sea Songs And Chanteys is that one.

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15 Sep 03 - 10:57 AM (#1019208)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Snuffy

Watchet still has problems with silt. I remember about 10 years ago watching at low tide as a JCB on the harbour bed loaded trailer after trailer with mud, which was then carted beyond the breakwater and dumped. The tidal range is one of the largest in the world, and it must have been about 25/30 feet down, but the sea was even further down.

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15 Sep 03 - 11:46 AM (#1019253)
Subject: Lyr.Add.: Old Gazela
From: Charley Noble

Nice to get some notes on this old song. We were wondering whether it was really old or composed to sound traditional.

Several years ago Roll & Go did several gigs aboard the barkentine Gazela when she'd slip into Maine for special events; she's headquartered in Philadephia. She's a fine old ship and we adapted "Rosabella" to "Old Gazela" and added a few new verses:


OLD GAZELA

(Adapted by Charlie Ipcar of Roll & Go, © 1996;
from traditional halyard shanty "Rosabella")


We are going on board the old Gazela,
We are going on board the old Gazela,
We are going on board, right down to board,
The saucy old Gazela.

Chorus:

We are going on board the old Gazela,
We are going on board the old Gazela,
We are going on board, right down to board,
The saucy old Gazela.

One Monday morning in the month of May,
One Monday morning in the month of May,
I thought I heard the Captain say,
"The old Gazela sails today." (CHO)

Them pretty girls do make me grieve,
Them pretty girls do make me grieve,
They spent my money, they caused me to leave,
On board the old Gazela. (CHO)

We sailors are so sick and sore,
We sailors are so sick and sore,
Our whiskey's gone, we can't get no more,
On board the old Gazela. (CHO)

Now up aloft this yard must go,
Now up aloft this yard must go,
For Mr. Mate has told us so,
On board the old Gazela. (CHO)

The Captain dearly loves our crew,
The Captain dearly loves our crew,
She always finds us work to do,
On board the old Gazela. (CHO)

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

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15 Sep 03 - 12:54 PM (#1019319)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: MartinRyan

Warp Four are/were an Irish shanty group with a website HERE . They have since, I think, almost merged with some of the old Press Gang group - singing in various combinations, depending on availability.

Notice that one of the Press Gang guys ( a great friend of mine) rejoices in the particularly appropriate name of - Tom Crean!

Regards

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15 Sep 03 - 03:09 PM (#1019390)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: GUEST,Lighter

The only traditional version I've encountered was collected by James M. Carpenter from a retired seaman in London in 1928 or 1929. There are two or three stanzas, but not all the words are audible on the wax cylinder. Tune and chorus are similar to those of Wickford Express.

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16 Sep 03 - 08:57 AM (#1019816)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Skipper Jack

Warp Four are alive and kicking!

They performed at the Cardiff Harbour Festival, which took place on the August Bank Holiday weekend.

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16 Sep 03 - 09:09 AM (#1019826)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Snuffy

From Folktrax

SAUCY ROSABELLA, THE - Shanty - ROUD#8343 - SHARP Ms John Short, Watchet, Somerset - HUGILL 1961 p178 "A-rolling down the river" or "The Saucy Arabella" - KINSEY SOS 1989 pp142-3 -- J S SCOTT rec by James M Carpenter, London c1928: 142 - Museum Trust, Appledore CA-5 "Over the bar" - Johnny MAGEE & Johnny COLLINS rec Sidmouth Radio 2: 24/5/82: CASS-0414 - JENKIN'S EAR, Guernsey F/Group rec 1994: CASS-1301

WassaiL! V

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16 Sep 03 - 04:53 PM (#1020155)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Charley Noble

So is it "salt-sea Rosabella" or "saucy Rosabella"? We did get our version from the singing of Johnny Collins and I believe he sings "saucy Rosabella."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

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17 Sep 03 - 05:00 AM (#1020558)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Skipper Jack

I have always sung "Saucy Rosabella"

We (Baggyrinkle) have always included various places depending on where we are performing, as an example:

"Them Swansea Girls are good and true,
But they're not for the likes of me and you!"

It's a great shanty to get the audience going (or I should say singing!)

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17 Sep 03 - 09:08 AM (#1020691)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Charley Noble

Skipper Jack-

Nice verse!

Charley Noble

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19 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM (#2292923)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: GUEST,doc.tom

Well, well. I've just found this thread!

Yes, I admit it, Barbara & I found the shanty in a C# mss collected from John Short of Watchet in 1914. Sharp published 47 of Short's shanties - but not this one. (Nor did he publish some other very interesting shanties/versions from Short).

We recorded Rosabella on the North Devon Maritime Museum's cassette "Over The Bar" in 1979 - whence we gave it to Collins & Mageean, whence all other version sung in the revival ultimately stem.

We're currently working on the entire Short repertoire, in a project called The Short, Sharp, Shanties (obvious really) including all the ones Sharp didn't publish and the versions that everyone sings without realising they came originally from John Short - the only shantyman ever to get an obituary in The Times (London.)

We always thought the Rosabella from Short was unique, but there'a a Saucy Rosabella in the Carpenter collection(ref: 03153)which looks structurally the same, but we haven't heard the tune yet - and there is allegedly a Rosabella in Beck, Folklore and the Sea (1973) pp.155-156 (collected in the West Indies)which we haven't found a copy of yet (anyone got it and care to post the words?)

Keep singing

Tom Brown

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19 Mar 08 - 05:19 PM (#2292999)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: radriano

What kind of work would be done to this shanty? The pattern of lyrics seems somewhat unusual.

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20 Mar 08 - 05:28 AM (#2293363)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: GUEST,doc.tom

John Short told Sharp it was a capstan shanty - which kinda fits with the pace and structure (trudge, trudge, etc). However, Charlie's earlier post of an 'adaptation' gives word which go to halliard work - which would work if the pulls were in the right place, however, there were no hauling words in the original. If fact there were only three veses as collected - I added the other 'floating' veses which were slightly varied by Collins & Mageean (and then by every other 'creative' re-writer in the recording world) - so interpretations based on the words are speculation without basis.

Tom

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20 Mar 08 - 06:49 AM (#2293391)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: stormalong

Tom

I think you said at Deal that the original only had two verses, and that two others were added by Johnny Collins? Could you say which please?

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20 Mar 08 - 07:44 AM (#2293415)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: GUEST

Hi stormalong - yes, I will post both the originals, our recording and the Collins variation when I get a moment or two!

Incidentally, re "collected by James M. Carpenter from a retired seaman in London" - actually it was John McPherson of South Shields.

Tom

Hi Tom. Please remember to use a consistent ID when signed in as a GUEST. This post was almost deleted but I saw you signed it. Thank You.

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21 Apr 08 - 04:31 AM (#2321275)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: GUEST,doc.tom

Haven't got round to doing the full sets, but:-

^^
COLECTED BY SHARP from John Short, Watchet.

I'm going on board the Rosabella
I'm going on board the Rosabella
I'm going on board, right down to board
The saucy Rosabella

O one Monday moring in the month of May
One Monday morning in the month of May
I thought I heard our captain say
The Rosabella will sail today

^^
COLLECTED BY CARPENTER from John McPherson, South Shields.

I shipped on board the Rosabella
I shipped on board the Rosabella
I've shipped on board, and I've signed on board
Of the Saucy Rosabella

O the Rosabella's a packet ship
A ship of great reknown
And if you've heard the old refrain
The song sung round the town

I've signed on board the Rosabella
The Saucy Rosabella
I've signed on board, and I've shipped on board
Of the saucty Rosabella.

The more astute will realise that McPherson's 'verse' does not have exactly the same scan as Short's (although it could be made to fit) - we're still trying to get to hear McPherson's tune (it was collected, but it's in Aberdeen!).

If there's any comitted shanty-catter's within striking distance, Barbara & I are actually doing the Short Sharp Shanties presentation actually IN THE BOAT MUSEUM IN WATCHET on the 17th August 2008 - looking forward to 'bringing it home'.

Tom

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21 Apr 08 - 08:03 AM (#2321389)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler

And I believe that John Short's concertina is owned by or on loan to the museum. Johnny Collins once told me that over 1/3 of all shanties recorded by Cecil Sharpe came from this one singer. My mother remembered hearing him sing and he was also town crier for a long ime.

Robin Madge

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21 Apr 08 - 12:30 PM (#2321594)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: BB

And could be heard two miles away in Doniford! As Town Crier of course!

We're not seen the concertina at either of the museums - we'll make further inquiries.

Barbara

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14 Jul 09 - 09:28 AM (#2679893)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: GUEST,Rosabella on warp Four site

Answer to the question who authored the Rosabella words.

'Twas me, Sean Laffey.

This is the version I sang with Jerry Cobb of Jenkins' Ear in the early 1990s and gave to Jack Harrison for the Warp Four Recording in 1996.


I also used it in a stage show, George and Stan the Last Windjammer Boys , the story of the Garthpool's last voyage*, it had a jaunty twenties dance band feel to it.

*(80th anniversary of that voyage this year and Hull are doing nothing about it)



I've lost the password to that web site, once I get it reactivated I'll add some links to this discussion here.

Cheers

Sean L.

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14 Jul 09 - 10:46 AM (#2679951)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Bill D

Sean Laffey...
You authored WHICH set of words? Earlier posts give sources back to 1914, and suggestions that it dates back to the 1800s.

Clarification always welcome.

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14 Jul 09 - 12:59 PM (#2680057)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: GUEST,Lighter

Doc.tom, I don't know about MacPherson of South Shields, but the "Rosabella" recording that Carpenter made in London of J.S. Scott are different. At least according to what's credited to him on the Folktrax CD. And Scott's stanzas all conform to the usual "Rosabella" pattern.

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14 Jul 09 - 02:29 PM (#2680155)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: doc.tom

Lighter, I posted the Short (Watchet) and the MacPherson (South Shields) texts above - any chance you could post the Scott (London) set?

What is the credit on the Folktrax CD?

Tom

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14 Jul 09 - 08:09 PM (#2680401)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Charley Noble

Very interesting work!

And it certainly appears to me, strictly from the lyrics, that the Carpenter recording of MacPherson and Short's version are different tunes.

I am curious what verses Sean was referring to above.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

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14 Jul 09 - 09:00 PM (#2680432)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: GUEST,Lighter

Scott is among the most difficult of Carpenter's shantymen to understand. He went to sea in 1863, so must have been close to 80 when Carpenter recorded him.

The liner notes say only, "The Saucy Rosabella: J.S. Scott, London...Recorded by James M. Carpenter 1928."

After listening for an hour, I can't do any better than this:

I'm goin' right aboard the Rosabella.
I'm goin' right aboard the Rosabella.
I've shipped on board, I must go board of
The saucy Rosabella.

For the Rosabella [?she can] ????????
????????? seas [?conduct] her
But the [?fastest time that] she beat them all
?????? from the old North River.

I must go board the Rosabella.
I must go board the Rosabella.
I've shipped on board, and I must go board of
The saucy Rosabella.

The "North River" is an old New York City name for the Hudson River, FWIW.

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15 Jul 09 - 07:16 AM (#2680604)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: doc.tom

Thanks, Lighter

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15 Jul 09 - 07:59 AM (#2680622)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: sleepyjon

I was liking "salt sea" instead of "saucy" earlier in the thread - but it seems to have sunk without trace. "Saucy" has always seemed an inappropriate epithet to apply to the stereotypical hairy-***ed son of the sea - or for that matter to the various vessels in which he sailed. I like the idea that it is just a mis-hearing of "salt-sea". Anything more known?

SJ

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15 Jul 09 - 08:59 AM (#2680666)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: GUEST,Lighter

For example, W. C. Bennett's "Sea Songs" (1878), p. 78:

Tight and saucy--tight and saucy,
Trim's the ship we hail from.

Remember that ships are traditionally female.

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15 Jul 09 - 11:15 AM (#2680771)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: GUEST,Lighter

Not uncommon: you listen and listen to these old recordings and can make out very little. Then suddenly the most unintelligible parts begin to make sense.

The second stanza of Scott's "Rosabella" now sound like this:

For the Rosabella beat the [?Kinoda]
The [?Kinoda] beat Conductor
But the Boston Times says she beat them all
Sailin' out from the old North River.

The Boston Times was a real paper, founded in 1836. The North River in Massachusetts, not far fromn Boston, was an important 18th and 19th century shipbuilding center. A bark "Rosabella" is mentioned frequently in newspapers between about 1837 and 1846. If the song is really that old it might help to explain why it was not collected more frequently.

I can't guess (yet) at what "Kinoda" might be, especially if, as it seems, it's the name of a ship. (Unless it really is "Kinoda" or "Kynoda" or something.)

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15 Jul 09 - 02:20 PM (#2680899)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: doc.tom

FANTASTIC bit of research, Lighter.
Well done.
Thank you!
Tom

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15 Jul 09 - 03:25 PM (#2680942)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: GUEST,Lighter

Thanks, Tom.

And not only that, according to the American "Sailor's Magazine, and Navy Journal" for March, 1847, the "Barque Rosabella, [Captain] Upton, from Montevideo, of and for Salem, was totally wrecked on the back side of Cape Cod" in 1846.

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24 Apr 10 - 12:01 PM (#2893451)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: shipcmo

refresh

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24 Apr 10 - 08:10 PM (#2893712)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Lighter

In "Folklore and the Sea" (1973, pp. 155-56), Horace P. Beck prints a version of "Rosabella" that he collected in the West Indies (he doesn't say where or when). The melody resembles the familiar one.

There are essentially only two stanzas, but they are repeated somewhat randomly to make the performance seven stanzas long. The spoken bits seem to be an occasional feature of West Indian singing:

Come let me join Rosabella. "Heave away" - (spoken)
Come let me join Rosabella. "Heave away" - (spoken)
Come let us join, Come let us join,
The saucy Rosabella. "Heave away." (spoken)

Contractor beat the Orinaca, "Heave away" (spoken)
The Orinaca beat the Contractor, "Heave away." (spoken)
He beat her once, he beat her twice
He beat her right down the Orinoco. "Heave away" (spoken)

These are basically the stanzas that J.S. Scott sang for Carpenter in the '20s, though the names are apparently different and the "Boston Times" is gone (if it was there to begin with). I say "apparently" and "if" because of the poor audibility of the dictaphone recording.

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25 Apr 10 - 04:43 AM (#2893870)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: doc.tom

Interesting-er and interesting-er. We'd looked at the Beck Rosabella and concluded it wasn't related - but that was before we'd had the debate on the Scott words. So - perhaps all four versions are related.

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25 Apr 10 - 10:06 PM (#2894329)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Charley Noble

Progress, indeed!

Charley Noble

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27 Sep 11 - 12:12 PM (#3229975)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: GUEST,Sean Laffey

Hi Folks , been a long time away.

On the words 2wot I wrote to the Rosablla" (as Eric Wise might have written).

I wrote the "Old Garthpool" to the tune and basic format of the Rosabella for the Stan Hugill show for Jenkins Ear.

The lyrics are on an old word2 document, which my modern version of office wont open. Soona s I can do it I'll post them here (it mightv take a while)

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27 Sep 11 - 02:24 PM (#3230062)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: doc.tom

The 'new' set of words, combining Short, Scott, McPherson (and sort of Beck) with the floaters I originally borrowed in 1979, and following information from Lighter, will be on the Short Sharp Shanties CD vol.3 which is due for release in the Spring of 2012.

In the meantime, vol.2 gets delivered this week (fear not, I'll get all those advance orders out straight away). Vol.1 still availalble - althought the reprint is running out fast!

We're being let out of Devon next month - see some of you at Harwich Shanty Festival.

Tom

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27 Sep 11 - 04:41 PM (#3230146)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Gibb Sahib

Tangential question:
Is there any fascination with the name "Rosabella" for vessels? I recently learned the Swedish sailor song (claimed as a shanty) "Rosabella Fredolin". I would not have thunk anything of it, but after poking into the origins, I found it was a revamp of the Italian song "O pescator dell'onda" (O fisherman of the waves). The latter has a nonsense (??) refrain of "fidolin". I'm no expert on the song, but it looks to me that when the song was adapted (either through translation or with entirely new lyrical theme) into German and Swedish, the refrain became "Rosabella Fridolin." I was struck by the addition of "Rosabella."

Any thoughts on why "Rosabella"? Again, this is just a little thread drift, sorry.
***
Also, incidentally, any ideas on the origin of Hugill's "Arabella"? Would it just be "folk processed" form of Rosabella, or is "Arabella" a legit name? I wonder too, if this might have been a song where it was pretty common to use the name of any vessel (as in Charlie and Roll & Go's instance, above). Just rambling...

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28 Sep 11 - 07:17 AM (#3230470)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler

Just to point out that John Short sailed in American waters quite a bit, including being on board the Hugh Block, so his version probably refers to the same vessel.

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28 Sep 11 - 09:21 AM (#3230526)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Snuffy

Hence Short's nickname of "Yankee Jack".

Arabella is indeed a legit name, although Arabella Fonteyn is definitely related to Lady Mondegreen

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15 Sep 13 - 07:23 AM (#3559043)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Phil Edwards

Question for doc.tom, if he's passing...

You said upthread (a few years ago!) that

there were only three veses as collected - I added the other 'floating' veses which were slightly varied by Collins & Mageean

In fact the Short version you posted only has two verses, what we now think of as the first verse ("One Monday morning") & the refrain ("I'm going on board"). Did you add all three of the other verses that are in current use - "She's a deepwater ship", "Them Bowery girls" and "All around Cape Horn"? I'm interested that you refer to them as floaters - the second and third are fairly familiar from other places, I've never heard a "deepwater ship" verse in a shanty. Was this a borrowing too, and if so do you remember where from?

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15 Sep 13 - 10:13 AM (#3559076)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: GUEST,doc.tom

Hi Phil. Back to source - Sharp/Short only had one verse and chorus, so yes, 'deep-water ship' does appear to be another I borrowed way back in '79. I did nick it as a floater and not make it up, but the source now eludes me. Sorry. (Now we've done it, I much prefer the reconstructed set that came from an amalgam of Short, Scott and McPherson as recorded on vol.3 of Short Sharp Shanties - thanks to Lighter's work, it also firmly locates the ship and her times).

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15 Sep 13 - 02:22 PM (#3559115)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Phil Edwards

as recorded on vol.3 of Short Sharp Shanties

Why had I never heard of this? Looks amazing!

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15 Sep 13 - 09:37 PM (#3559158)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Charley Noble

Doc Tom-

Thanks again for working this up for the nautical singing community. We have been enjoying it for years.

I have a spin-off that we worked up while singing aboard the barkentine Gazela, the "Old Gazela" which at that time had a female captain:

Adapted by Charlie Ipcar of Roll & Go, 1996
From traditional halyard shanty Rosabella

Old Gazela

We are going on board the old Gazela,
We are going on board the old Gazela,
We are going on board, right down to board,
The saucy old Gazela.

Chorus:

We are going on board the old Gazela,
We are going on board the old Gazela,
We are going on board, right down to board,
The saucy old Gazela.

One Monday morning in the month of May,
One Monday morning in the month of May,
I thought I heard the Captain say,
"The old Gazela sails today." (CHO)

Them pretty girls do make me grieve,
Them pretty girls do make me grieve,
They spent my money, they caused me to leave,
On board the old Gazela. (CHO)

We sailors are so sick and sore,
We sailors are so sick and sore,
Our whiskey's gone, we can't get no more,
On board the old Gazela. (CHO)

Now up aloft this yard must go,
Now up aloft this yard must go,
For Mr. Mate has told us so,
On board the old Gazela. (CHO)

The Captain dearly loves our crew,
The Captain dearly loves our crew,
She always finds us work to do,
On board the old Gazela. (CHO)

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16 Sep 13 - 08:14 AM (#3559283)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Tootler

Phil,

In Stan Hugill's "Shanties of the Seven Seas", there's a "deepwater ship" verse in "Rio Grande".

It goes

"We're a deep water ship with a deep water crew
You can stick to the coast but we're damned if we do"

I can check the exact page but my copy's upstairs.

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18 Sep 13 - 01:58 AM (#3559478)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: GUEST,doc.tom

Tootler - Yep, that's the one. That was the 1979 source. Well done.

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26 Jan 14 - 11:00 AM (#3595667)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: GUEST,cgmfifer

Anyone know where I could find the sheet music to this?

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26 Jan 14 - 11:43 AM (#3595672)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Rosabella
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

15 Sept 03, Seto post gives a link to Rosabella- click on 'music' and sheet music is there.

That is an old link but it still works; suggest you copy it because it could disappear.

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Since 2014 this thread has received nothing but spam. If you wish to post on this topic as a moderator or mudelf to reopen it. Thanks. ---mudelf

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