Origins: It's Hard, Hard Times

26 Sep 03 - 03:34 AM (#1025038)
Subject: Origins: It's Hard, Hard Times
From: Joe Offer

We have lots of information on Stephen Foster's Hard Times Come Again No More, but the other "Hard Times" song(s) get(s) forgotten. We have a number of songs in the Digital Tradition that use the phrase "it's hard times" or "it's hard, hard times." Well, I'm having trouble telling whether all these songs are related, or if maybe we have three or four basic songs here. I've crosslinked all the songs I question - you'll see them listed at the top of this thread. How can we sort them out?
-Joe Offer-

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The Traditional Ballad Index links the lot of them to "The Rigs of the Time(s)." I'm not sure I agree (and they're not sure, either), but here's their entry:

Rigs of the Times, The

DESCRIPTION: Chorus: "Honesty's all out of fashion; These are the rigs of the times...." Detailing all the sharp business practices of the day, e.g. the butcher who charges two shillings a pound "and thinks it no sin" -- while placing his thumb on the scale!
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1905 (Belden)
KEYWORDS: hardtimes poverty lie money landlord
FOUND IN: Britain(England(Lond,South)) US(MA,NW,SE,So) Canada Australia
REFERENCES (9 citations):
Kennedy 237, "The Rigs of the Time" (1 text, 1 tune)
Belden, pp. 433-434, "Song of the Times" (1 text)
BrownIII 332, "Hard Times" (2 texts plus a fragment and mention of 1 more)
Hudson 89, pp. 215-216, "Hard Times" (1 text)
Lomax-ABFS, pp. 332-334, "Hard Times" (1 text)
Fahey-Eureka, pp. 14-16, "The Rigs of the Times" (1 text, 1 tune)
Fowke/Mills/Blume, pp. 206-208, "Hard, Hard Times" (1 text, 1 tune -- a Canadian adaptation created by William James Emberly in 1936 to describe conditions in the Great Depression)
JHCox 183, "Hard Times" (1 text, the first six verses being "Courting the Widow's Daughter" and the last seven being a reduced version, minus the chorus, of "The Rigs of the Times")
DT, RIGSTIME*
RECORDINGS:
J. W. "Charger" Salmons & friends: "The Rigs of the Time" (on Lomax41, LomaxCD1741)
Pete Steele, "The Song of Hard Times" (on PSteele01)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Don't Come to Michigan" (lyrics)
cf. "Old David Ward" (lyrics)
cf. "How Can A Poor Man Stand Such Times and Live?" (subject)
cf. "The Steam Doctor" (lyrics)
Notes: Most scholars (e.g. Belden, Cox, Kennedy) assume that "The Rigs of the Times" (with chorus "Singing, Honesty's all out of fashion, These are the rigs of the times, times, me boys, These are the rigs of the times") is the same as "Hard Times" (with a short chorus such as "these times, these (hard/queer) times").
Personally, I'm not convinced, as the two seem to fall into very distinct groups. But because the equation is so common, I've followed it in the index. - RBW
File: K237

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26 Sep 03 - 03:52 AM (#1025047)
Subject: Lyr Add: HARD TIMES (trad. North Carolina)
From: Joe Offer

There are a couple of versions in the Frank C. Brown Collection of North Carolina Folklore. This one is #332A. It has that element of cheating you find in "Rigs of the Time."

HARD TIMES

Come listen a while, I will sing you a song
Concerning hard times, and it shall not be long,
Since everybody is trying to buy
And cheat each other and think it's right;
And it's hard times.

From brother to brother, from sister to cousin,
They all have learned to cheat each other;
Since cheating has come so much in fashion
I fear it will spread quite over this nation
And it's hard times.

The blacksmith labors by the sweat of his brow,
And so does the farmer by following his plow
They're both a man on their own conceit
And will cheat each other in measure and weight;
And it's hard times.

Here is the shoemaker; he's worse than them all
He bristles his end to follow his awl,
He'll sew a stitch an inch at a clip
And swear to the buyer the shoe will never rip.
And it's hard times.

Here is the old doctor; and, so they tell me,
He says he will cure you for a very small fee,
He says he will cure you for half you possess,
And when he don't kill you he takes the rest.
And it's hard times.

Here is the old preacher; he rides in his stage,
He'll take out his Bible and read you a page,
He'll preach a sermon for you to go by,
And if you set him to trading he'll tell you a lie.
And it's hard times.

Young ladies will rise at the dawn of the day,
They'll ruffle and shuffle, they'll try to look gay,
They'll comb np their hair so nice and so neat
To make the young men think they look sweet;
And it's hard times.

Young men will rise, to the chnrch they will go,
They'll ruffle, they'll shuffle, they'll make a fine show;
They'll stop at the tavern and there drink wine
And all such boys the gallows will find.
And it's hard times.

Here is the old merchant, I must have him in.
He's bound to extortion and thinks it's no sin,
He'll tip up his stillyards and make them weigh down,
And swear it's good weight if it likes ten pound.
And it's hard times.

Here is the old miller I'd like to have forgot.
He's always sitting a-pecking his rock,
He's always pleading his toll dish small
Sometimes he takes half and sometimes he takes all.
And it's hard times.

Here is the young men; they're worse than all.
They tell you they love you to try their own soul,
They tell you they love you when they're sitting by
And when they get away they'll swear it's a lie.
And it's hard times.

And now I will make you an end of my song,
It was very well worded and not very long,
And if everybody don't come at this call,
If the Lord don't take them the devil gets all.
And it's hard times.


'Hard Times.' From the manuscript songbook of Miss Lura Wagoner of Vox, Alleghany county, lent to Dr. Brown in 1936.
Frank C. Brown Collection of North Carolina Folklore (Volume 2, Folk Songs)

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26 Sep 03 - 03:59 AM (#1025049)
Subject: Lyr Add: HARD TIMES (trad. North Carolina)
From: Joe Offer

This is #332B from Brown.

HARD TIMES

Come all ye young people, I sing you a song
Which is not very long,
How everybody is trying to trade
And cheating each other, I cannot tell why,
From father to mother and sister and brother
And cousin and kinfolks are cheating each other.
And it's hard, hard, hard, hard times.

There is the old blacksmith I'd like to've forgot;
I believe in my soul he's the worst of the lot.
He'll shoe your horses and sharpen your plows
And at the end of the year he'll drive off your cows.
And it's hard, hard times.

There is the old shoemaker I'd like to've forgot
I believe in my soul he's the worst of the lot.
He'll go stitching along an inch at a clip
And he'll swear by Joe it never will rip.
And it's hard, hard times.

There is the old preacher I'd like to've forgot;
I believe in my soul he's the worst of the lot.
He'll go to church twelve times in the year,
And if you die and go to the devil he really don't care.
And it's hard, hard times.

There is the young lady I'd like to've forgot:
I believe in my soul she's the worst of the lot.
She'll slick up her hair and to church she will go,
And what is it for but to catch her a beau?
And it's hard, hard times.

#332B 'Hard Times.' From Miss Jewell Robbins (later Mrs. C. P. Perdue), Pekin, Montgomery county, some time between 1921 and 1924. With the tune. Basically the same text as A but reduced by omissions from twelve stanzas to five and with numerous minor alterations.

#332C 'Hard Times.' Reported by Vernon Sechrist of Thomasville, Davidson county, in 1928, "as remembered by Mrs. Augusta Fouts at the age of 77 years." The first stanza only.

#332D 'Hard Times.' From Miss Pearle Webb of Pineola, Avery county.
The tune, and a fragmentary stanza not found in A or B:
I really do believe it's for the sake of old
They starve the women and the children out of bed,
And it's hard times, hard times.

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Hard Times (Cheating) in the Digital Tradition is definitely the same song, but a very different version. I wonder where it's from. The DT's Hard, Hard Times is a maritime version from Fowke's Penguin Book of Canadian Folk Songs.

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26 Sep 03 - 05:10 PM (#1025311)
Subject: Lyr Add: HARD TIMES AND NO BEER (from Bodleian)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

"Hard times" is an old statement. Here is one from Britain.

Lyr. Add: HARD TIMES AND NO BEER

You Englishmen,and Irishmen,
Scotchmen and Welshmen too,
Old Nosey swears, and Bob declares,
That they will make us rue;
They will feed us all on paving stones,
How shocking 'tis, oh! dear,
They've rose the ale, the gin, the rum,
The brandy and the beer.

Chorus:
Oh! what a shame, and whose to blame,
For this most sad affair,
They first did rise the bread and meat,
And now they have rose the beer.

The tailor cries, the butcher weeps,
The cobler droops his head,
The goose and sleeve board goes for meat,
The lapstone goes for bread,
The washerwoman rubs away,
And heaves a sigh so queer,
And holloas what a cursed shame
It is to rise the beer.

A bonny blooming grocer's wife,
They call her lovely Jane,
Who keeps a shop in Dudley Street,
And one in Petticoat Lane.
Sung, coffee, tea and cocoa strong
Then spiteful home did steer,
And beat her husband round the room
With a pot of fivepenny beer.

The coalheaver begins to droop,
The dustman drops his whip,
The costermonger sings gee up,
And whistles Duckleg Dick.
The sailor holloas out avast!
The times are very queer,
The soldier out of thirteen pence
A day can't buy no beer.

I saw thirteen teetotalers,
Last night with joy run mad,
And sing so keen long live the Queen,
Oh! arn't we very glad.
They gave a jump to Aldgate pump,
Then to the Thames did steer,
Where they nearly drank the river dry,
And holloa'd rise the beer.

Oh; what a price they've got the bread,
In country and in town,
Sixpence for a bunch of greens,
Potatoes twopence a pound;
Tenpence for a small sheep's head,
And the coals are very dear,
How could they take it in their heads,
To rise the gin and beer.

They are going to raise the candles,
Snuff, Tobacco, and soap,
And charge us threepence halfpenny,
For a little twopenny loaf;
They are going to raise the ladies,
Boots and stockings too, oh! dear,
And the devil take the brewers clerks
And smother us in beer.

How would the lords and ladies,
And other nobles fine,
Feel if they had to suck the pump,
Instead of drinking wine.
Pity, don't you think old England,
Is getting very queer,
Would Prince Albert like to drive the plough
Without a drop of beer.

Just see the bouncing Landlord
Who could strut about so fine,
And the ladies with their bustles big
A sticking out behind,
And tears falling from their eyes,
In agony, oh! dear,
Crying cursed was the fatal day
The villains rose the beer.

Bodleian Ballads, Firth c22(64), ca. 1839-1859, Ryle and Paul, London.

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26 Sep 03 - 05:12 PM (#1025313)
Subject: RE: Origins: It's Hard, Hard Times
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Bodleian ballads

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26 Sep 03 - 05:15 PM (#1025315)
Subject: ADD: Song of the Times (from Belden)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Thread #74176   Message #1292797
Posted By: Q (Frank Staplin)
08-Oct-04 - 09:52 PM
Thread Name: Origins: The Dodger Song
Subject: ADD: Song of the Times

A related song, since in thought it has the same intent. Especially compare verse 10, concerning the doctor (mentioned in Randolph in note to the 'Dodger' song). This one from 1905.
^^
SONG OF THE TIMES

Now a song I will sing you in jingles and rhymes
About matters and things in these curious times,
And a lesson to all I hope it will be
When I sing about things that I every day see.
These queer times, these queer times.

I see the little boys, just from their mamas,
Think themselves men because they puff their cigars.
They'd better be at home playing with toys
Then parading the streets and saying 'I'm one of the boys.'
These fast times, these fast times.

And there's the modern young lady, all the time reading sonnets,
Romances, and novels, and wearing queer bonnets;
She'll screw up her waist till she cannot sneeze,
Wear a hump on her back, and a dress without sleeves.
These are queer times, these are queer times.

And I see the married ladies wear satins for dress
When their husbands are bankrupt and in great distress.
They had better be at home washing up dishes,
Darning old stockings, and mending their husband's old breeches,
These hard times, these hard times.

There's the blacksmith, who lives by the sweat of his brow,
And there's the old farmer, who follows his plow;
Each a very good man, in his own conceit,
But get em' to trading, they both will cheat.
And it's hard times, it's hard times.

And there's the Old Baptist. he'll come on the stage,
He'll open his book, and he'll read you a page,
He'll tell you a tale for you to go by,
But give him a chance, he'll get drunk on the sly.
And it's hard times, it's hard times.

And the old Methodist, too, will exhort, and he'll pray,
He'll point you to Heaven the straight, narrow way,
He'll go to camp meeting, he'll shout and he'll cry,
But in a horse trade he will tell you a lie.
And it's hard times. it's hard times.

Next, the old Presbyterian, with grave, solemn face,
Will tell you salvation is all by God's grace;
You'll come when He 'draws you', you can't come before,
But still, if you don't come, to Hell you must go,
And this seems a hard case, a very hard case.

And now comes the Campbellite, preaching reform,
'Repent and be baptized,' in sunshine or storm;
He boasts of his 'good works,' owns to some evil too,
But all the good's for himself and the evil for you.
And it's hard times, it's hard times.

And there's the old doctor, I like to forgot.
I do think in my soul he's the worst of the flock;
He'll promise to cure you, for half you possess,
And when you are dead, he will go for the rest.

Oh, it's hard times, it's hard times.

And lastly, the lawyer, as certain as fate,
Will have a fat slice in winding up your estate,
And his Honor, the Judge, of the Probate, with ease
Gobbles up the remainder, in costs and in fees.
And then it's hard times, it's very hard times.

H. M. Belden, editor, 1940, "Ballads and Songs Collected by the Missouri Folk-Lore Society, Univ. Missouri Studies vol. 15, no. 1, pp. 433-434, communicated 1905 by Mary L. Goodwin, Lafayette County, MO.

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26 Sep 03 - 05:17 PM (#1025318)
Subject: RE: Origins: It's Hard, Hard Times
From: Mrrzy

Will have to remember this soon... I have this by Oscar Brand on his I Hear America Singing album, and the final verse has something about With everyone turning to evil or worse / Perhaps we had better start cheating back first! Great song, one of the ones I sing a lot during, well, hard times. Thanks for all the extra verses!

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20 Oct 06 - 02:21 PM (#1864439)
Subject: Lyr Add: HARD TIMES (from Christl & Robb)
From: Joe Offer

Here's the version from Folk Legacy CD-064, The Barley Grain for Me, by Margaret Christl and Ian Robb, with Grit Laskin.


HARD TIMES

Come all you good people and listen to me song,
It's about the poor people, how they're getting along.
They fish in the Spring, finish up in the Fall,
And when it's all over they've nothing at all.
And it's hard, hard times.

Go out in the morning, the wind it will sing;
It's over the side you will hear the line ring
Out flow the jigger and freeze with the cold,
And as to for starting, all gone in the hole.
And it's hard, hard times.

Poor fishermen, we've been out all the day,
Come in in the evening, full sail up the bay,
And there's Kate, in the corner with a wink and a nod,
Saying, "Jimmy and Johnny, have you got any cod?"
And it's hard, hard times.

When you've got some split and hung out for to dry,
'Twill take all your time to brush off the flies.
To keep off the maggots, 'tis more than you'll do,
And the sun will come out and they're all split in two.
And it's hard, hard times.

And then comes the merchant to see your supply;
The fine side of fishing we'll see, by and by.
Seven dollars for large and six-fifty for small;
Pick up your West Indie for you've nothing at all.
And it's hard, hard times.

The baker has loaves that get smaller each week;
He's as bad as your butcher who cuts up your meat.
The scales they fly up and the weights they whack down,
And he sings out "It's weight!" when it's short an half pound.
And it's hard, hard times.

Then next comes the carpenter to build you a house;
He claims it's so snug you will scarce find a mouse.
With holes in the roof where the rain it will pour
And smoke in the chimney, and it's "Open the door!"
And it's hard, hard times.

The parson will tell you he'll save your poor soul;
If you stick to his books, you'll stay off of the dole.
He'll give you his blessing, or maybe a curse,
Put his hand in your pocket, walk off with your purse.
And it's hard, hard times.

Then next comes the doctor, the worst of them all,
Saying, "What's been the matter with you all this Fall?"
He claims he will cure you of all your disease;
When your money he's got, you can die, if you please.
And it's hard, hard times.

The best thing to do is to work with a will;
For when it's all over, you're hauled on the hill.
You're hauled on the hill and laid out in the cold,
And when it's all over, you're still in the hole.
And it's hard, hard times.

Source: Gordon Willis, St. John's, Newfoundland (melody and part of first verse); Ned Rice, Cape Broyle, Newfoundland (the rest of the text).
Collected by Kenneth Peacock.
Notes: This song maintained its popularity throughout the years of the depression, for very obvious reasons. Although similar songs have been found in the United States, the first five verses make this version, at least for me, very Canadian. It's fine melody, combined with a text of biting sarcasm, describes, all too well, the average day in the life of a Newfoundland fisherman.

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20 Oct 06 - 08:48 PM (#1864744)
Subject: RE: DTStudy: It's Hard, Hard Times
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

This version is from Duncan Emrich, "American Folk Poetry."

HARD TIMES

Come listen awhile and give ear to my song
Concerning these hard times, it won't take you long;
How the people each other they try for to bite,
And in cheating each other they think they do right,
they think they do right,
And so it is hard times wherever you go.

The baker he'll cheat you in the bread that you eat,
And so will the butcher in the weight of his meat;
He'll tip up his scales and make them go down,
And he'll swear it is weight when it lacks half a pound,
it lacks half a pound,
And so it is hard times wherever you go.

The miller he'll tell you he'll grind for your toll,
And do the work as well as he can for his soul;
But when your back's turned, and the dish in his fist,
He'll give you the toll and himself keep the grist,
himself keep the grist,
And so it is hard times wherever you go.

The landlord he'll feed your horse oats, corn and hay,
And when yor back's turned, he will take them away.
For oats he'll give chaff, and for corn he'll give bran,
And yet he will holler, "I'm too honest a man,
too honest a man."
And so it is hard times wherever you go.

The tinker he'll tell you he'll mend all your ware
For little or nothing, some ale, or some beer;
Before he begins, He'll get half drunk or more
And in mending one hole he will punch twenty more,
will punch twenty more,
And so it is hard times wherever you go.

Next is the ladies, the sweet little dears,
So fine at the balls and the parties appear,
With whalebones and corsets themselves they will squeeze
'Till you'll have to unlace them before they can sneeze,
before they can sneeze,
And so it is hard times wherever you go.

The doctor he'll tell you he'll cure all your ills
With his puffs and his powders, his syrups and squills;
He'll give you a dose that will make you grow fat,
Or he'll give you a dose that will leave you but your boots and your hat,
your boots and your hat,
And so it is hard times wherever you go.

You've listened a while and give ear to my song,
Therefore you can't say I've sung anything wrong.
If there's anyone here from my song takes offence,
They can go to the devil and seek recompense,
and seek recompense,
Ans so it is hard times wherever you go.

""Hard Times" was collected, with music, from Mrs. Maude Simpson, Detroit, MI. 1934, who had it from the singing of her grandfather, Mr. Seth Evilsizer, who, in turn, had learned it from Mr. John Gibson, Alma, MI, during Grover Cleveland's administration."
In Emelyn Elizabeth Gardner and Geraldine Jencks Chickering, "Ballads and Songs of Southern Michigan," (University of Michigan Press) Ann Arbor, 1939, p. 443.
Duncan Emrich, 1974, "American Folk Poetry, An Anthology," pp. 767-768, Little, Brown and Company, Boston-Toronto.

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20 Oct 06 - 09:20 PM (#1864772)
Subject: RE: DTStudy: It's Hard, Hard Times
From: dick greenhaus

Cotton Mill Girls
All in and Down and Out Blues (a depression-era one by Dave Macon)

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21 Oct 06 - 12:09 AM (#1864849)
Subject: Lyr Add: FLIP FLAP (Hard Times)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

I have added "Hard Times Cotton Mill Girls" to the thread on that song.
Thread 24157: Cotton Mill Girls

The following "Hard Times" from the Civil War era is interesting.

Lyr. Add: FLIP FLAP
(Sung by Frank Lum, Ethiopian comedian)

There's big fish and little fish,
Of every rank and station;
I'll sing you, now, a good old song
About this Yankee Nation.
Hard times are all the talk,
And every body is failing;
The world is all a bursting up,
And to the Devil sailing.

Chorus:
Flip flap, turn Jack,
Belzebub's a coming:
Wake snake, and toe de mark,
I'll meet you in de morn.

Dixie's Land is playing bluff,
And down on Yankee Doodle;
The South, they say, can whip the North,
And pocket all the boodle;
They want four aces, every time;
And they try their best to steal 'em,
But, while Jeff Davis stocks the cards,
McClellan knows how to deal 'em!

Cho.

Some people like to get the job,
To be Commissionary,
Or get up all the soldiers' clothes,
And make them nice and airy;
They make them fit so very nice,
They never show the creases;
But when a soldier blows his nose,
He bursts himself to pieces!

Cho.

Everybody is trying to fight,
And get a good commission;
I guess I'll put myself up
For General of Division.
Red tape, up at Albany,
Will settle all the matter;
For, he makes a General, every day,
Of a tailor or a hatter.

Cho.

Now, there's Wigfal will get a fall,
With Hemp instead of Cotton;
And Davis, too, will find the road
Is neither short nor rotten.
With Beauregard, and Ouleygard,
Secessionists we'll sever;
We'll give the Traitors all the Stripes,
But we'll keep the Stars for ever!
Cho.

H. De Masran, Publisher, 54 Chatham Street, N. Y. American Song Sheets. America Singing: Nineteenth-Century Song Sheets. [c. 1861?]
http://memory.loc.gov

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21 Oct 06 - 11:45 AM (#1865078)
Subject: RE: DTStudy: It's Hard, Hard Times
From: Bob the Postman

Way back in 2003, Q pointed the way to the Bodleian Library's on-line archive of broadsides, but no one seemed to follow up on it. So go to this place http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/ballads/ and accept their conditions, then search for "chapter of cheats".

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