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15 Nov 03 - 08:26 PM (#1054436) Subject: RE: Mudcat FAQ - Newcomer's Guide From: Snowwhitie I show great interest in the origin and development of the 2 words " OZ and Aussie ". where these two words derived from and exact how, who used it first , when and where ? I show great interest in the etymoligical study of some Aussie words . Could you please help me . Thanking you in anticipation. Regards Snowwhitie |
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16 Nov 03 - 02:26 AM (#1054558) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Joe Offer Hi, Snowwhitie - I thought it was mostly because Oz and "Aussie" seem to sound like the beginning of the word "Australia," but I htink I heard there was an additional reason why they used the term "Oz." Our Australians will be waking up and getting online soon, and I'm sure they'll come up with a better answer. Where do you live? -Joe Offer, in California, USA- |
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16 Nov 03 - 03:53 AM (#1054569) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Bob Bolton G'day Snowwhitie, So who said we were energetic spellers ... ? The longer, and more reasonable abbreviation, "Aussie" seems to have been around since the early years of the 1st World War ... our first involvement in overseas battle as a nation, not a colony of Britain ... and, probably, the first time we were seeing Australia abbreviated to "AUS" on insignia, documents and orders. (After all, we and our near neighbours New Zealand enthusiastically adopted ANZAC - from the Australia and New Zealand Army Corps!) Ossie seems to have been an occasional variant ... but Oz(zie) does seem to owe a lot to young Judy Garland's early film career! Hey Joe! - at the time you made your statement above ... we were eating our Sunday evening meal ... and a lot would have been at the keyboard 10 or 12 hours earlier. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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16 Nov 03 - 04:37 AM (#1054577) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Bob Bolton G'day again, I took the chance, while off-line, to look up my copy of the Oxford Australian National Dictionary. This hefty volume (I suffered a "tennis Elbow" injury carelessly lifting it, left-handed, from the shelf a year or two back!) has a full OED (the Oxford English Dictionary) treatment of 'Australian' words and usage. I had overlooked a sole 1919 instance of "Ozzie" - significantly in an account of Australian troops' kinship with the Americans in WW 1. The next instance ("Oz" ... in 'the tribes of Oz ...') occurs in 1944 ... another time at which we were thrown into close contact with Americans on various battlefields. I tend to think the "Oz" spelling comes out of American simplification (late-Websterism ...?) ... an American difficulty with 'double s' pronounced as a 'hard s' .. and some influence of the Wizard of Oz - book or film. Regards, Bob |
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16 Nov 03 - 05:59 AM (#1054594) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: John MacKenzie Then there's Okker [sp] a word which seems to only occur in Oz itself these days.My Concise OED refuses to even recognise the word. Giok [Who's just back from 3 all too short weeks in Oz.] |
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16 Nov 03 - 06:28 AM (#1054610) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Hrothgar That's Ocker. Giok. Get these spellings correct! Macquarie Dictionary: Ocker, n. 1. The archetypical uncultivated Australian working man; 2. a boorish, uncouth chauvinistic Australian; 3. an Australian male displaying qualities considered to be typically Australian, esp. good humour, helpfulness, and resourcefulness; adj. 4. of or pertaining to an ocker; 5. Distinctively Australian. Now, does it mean I'm an Ocker if I laugh while kneecapping jonny Wilkinson? That's helpful (to us) and resourceful. |
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16 Nov 03 - 06:37 AM (#1054612) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Bob Bolton G'day Giok and Hrithgar, "Ocker" is a sort of side-line to this. It's a longstanding (local ...?) contraction of the name 'Oscar', but it became established as much what Hrothgar's quote says from the character of that name, played by Ron Frazer in the mid-1960s satyrical TV revue The Mavis Bramston Show. Regards, Bob |
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16 Nov 03 - 07:43 AM (#1054639) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Helen As I understand it, the use of the name "Oz" for Australia was popularised by Richard Neville's controversial 1970's newspaper/magazine of the same name. I don't know when the song "Is he an Ozzie/Ossie/Aussie (sp?) is he, Lizzy?" came out. I have a feeling it was about the time of World War I or maybe WWII. It is proving very hard to search for on Google because of the spelling possibilities and also because the other words are so common: "is" "he" "an" and then there is the spelling of "Lizzy" or "Lizzie". It has a very catchy tune, by the way. Okay, here are some search results: 1939 in music 1939 in music Published popular songs # "Is 'E An Aussie, Lizzie, Is 'E?" w.m. B. C. Hilliam & Malcolm McEachern IS 'E AN AUSSIE, LIZZIE, IS 'E? by Flotsam and Jetsam Learn how Lizzie met an Aussie Told her girlfriend, Maryann "Maryann, I've met a man... Who says he is Australian." "Fallen for 'im 'ave you Lizzie?" Lizzie blushing, shook her head. Said Maryann, "Don't think you can Fool me." and then she said... "Is 'e an Aussie, Lizzie, is 'e? Is 'e an Aussie, Lizzie, aye? Is it because 'e is an Aussie... That 'e keeps you busy, Lizzie? Has 'e jazzy ways and does 'e Make you go all fuzzy wuzzy? Got you dizzy, 'as 'e Lizzie? Is 'e an Aussie, Lizzie, aye?" "Seems this digger likes my figure." Lizzie then told Maryann "Likes my ways and claims to think 'em What these Aussies call 'Fair Dinkum' Throws a fond eye talks of Bondai And he's tried to kiss me twice When I've said, 'No!' he's said 'Good oh!'" Said Maryann, "How nice!" "Is 'e an Aussie, Lizzie, is 'e? Is 'e an Aussie, Lizzie, aye? Is it because 'e is an Aussie... That 'e keeps you busy, Lizzie? Has 'e jazzy ways and does 'e Make you go all fuzzy wuzzy? Got you dizzy, 'as 'e Lizzie? Is 'e an Aussie, Lizzie, aye?" Soon this wonder from down under Got himself right down to biz., Lost no time in coaxing Liz To promise that she would be his. He being well worn, lived in Melbourne So they sailed at once for there And Maryann without a man Repeats this maidens prayer... "Is 'e an Aussie, Lizzie, is 'e? Is 'e an Aussie, Lizzie, aye? Is it because 'e is an Aussie... That 'e keeps you busy, Lizzie? Has 'e jazzy ways and does 'e Make you go all fuzzy wuzzy? Got you dizzy, 'as 'e Lizzie? Is 'e an Aussie, Lizzie, aye? Just an aside about the word "Ocker". A clever variation I have heard is to refer to a female equivalent of an Ocker as an Ockerina. Helen |
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16 Nov 03 - 08:06 AM (#1054652) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: McGrath of Harlow An ocker = A knocker. A grumbler. Someone a bit bloody-minded. I believe it was originally more likely to refer to Pommy immigrants who might disparage things Australian. |
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16 Nov 03 - 12:28 PM (#1054739) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Joe Offer ...but in the United States, knockers come in pairs... |
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16 Nov 03 - 02:02 PM (#1054793) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Q (Frank Staplin) Ocker is in the OED (The complete edition), with references to the television sketches, the name Oscar, and the definition as a rough, uncultivated Australian. Recent editions of the OED have added definitions from the Australian language. My latest is 1987; they hadn't caught up with Oz at that time. Aussie showed up in print in 1917 as Ausie, and in 1918, as Aussie in "The Australian Soldiers' Magazine." Looks like it originated with the soldiers (quotations given in the OED). Ran across an old word, "australize," to point southward. 17th century, but no one had a real need for it, so it quickly became obsolete (if it ever had common currency). Perhaps it could be resurrected to point to attempts to integrate immigrants (but already the term ockerize is available). |
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16 Nov 03 - 03:39 PM (#1054878) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Helen McGrath, I'd be interested to know your source of info on ocker=knocker because I have never heard it explained that way. Also, although ockers are the equivalent (I think) of "rednecks" and therefore they do tend to "knock" or excessively criticise things, people, the government, etc I am not sure that there is a really strong connection between the two concepts. Ockers, in my experience, tend to be working class, the "unreconstructed man" whose prime motivations in life are his car, his booze, his mates, and as much sex as he can manage to score, bearing in mind that his ockerness could be a disadvantage at times in that area. Although for ockerinas it is probably seen as an advantage. :-) A couple of decades or more ago I saw an interview on tv of an Oz bikie, and when he was asked what were the most important things in his life he replied, in a "rough as guts" voice: "Me bike, me booze, an' me bird....in that order!" That about sums up ockerdom, if you replace the word "bike" with the word "car". And I'm sure that we had a thread a couple of years ago on the word "hoon". "Hooning around" is driving around in a swaggering way, showing off your car, and having races on the street or at the traffic lights. It's a testosterone thing. Like the peacock's feathers and the noisy, flashy show he puts on for the ladies. Helen |
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16 Nov 03 - 03:39 PM (#1054879) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Helen So that means that a "hoon" is someone who "hoons around". |
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16 Nov 03 - 04:26 PM (#1054916) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Q (Frank Staplin) Hoon also has entered the OED, defined as "a lout, a rough, a crazy person, a clot, a ponce." The word seems to be adding meanings. 1938- Herbert, in Capricornia: 'You flash hoon,' he went on. 'Kiddin' you're white, eh?' 1953- Baker, Australia Speaks, "Women whose activities are not organized by hoons ... are called 'battlers'." 1965- Brisbane Telegraph: "hoon, a crackpot. 1969- Brisbane Courier-Mail: (About traffic enforcement-radar, etc.) Giving locations "advertises the locations where they are not being used, thus giving the hot-rod hoons an open go." Somewhere I read of conkers being called ockers. Don't remember the source. |
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16 Nov 03 - 07:33 PM (#1055053) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Q (Frank Staplin) I would appreciate a definition of battler, as used in the quotation about women whose activities are not organized by hoons. Who are they? Independent hookers? Female panhandler? The OED quotations don't give a good explanation of the current Aussie meaning. Lawson used it in 1900 for people living off the leavings; a swagman (still used or obsolete?). The other quotes suggest a person struggling against odds, but the quote about hoons suggests something else. |
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16 Nov 03 - 07:55 PM (#1055066) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: McGrath of Harlow Can't remember where I heard that explanation of "ocker" - I know I didn't make it up. I think it was more likely on the radio than anywhere, years and years ago. The suggestion was that it started out as a way of putting down immigrants from England with a trades union background who were seen as stirring trouble - as I said, a bit bloody-minded. But then presumably it got taken up by Australians for some of their own, since being bloody-minded when need be is as Australian as it comes. Of course it could be fake folk etymology - but it sounds quite plausible to me. I found this definition on this site - Living in Australia: ocker - an uncultivated or boorish Australian; a knocker or derider. |
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16 Nov 03 - 08:16 PM (#1055087) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Hrothgar Macquarie dictionary again: hoon, n, colloquial 1. a loutish, aggressive, or surly youth; 2. a foolish or silly person; 3. one who lives off the proceeds of prostitution. My own understanding of it has always been based on regarding it as an abbreviation of the word "hooligan." It has also become used as a verb in recent years, "hooning" usually referring to youths or young men showing off their motor vehicles - sometimes to the extent of blocking off public roads for drag races, etc. "battler" has different connotations. I have never heard it used to describe a prostitute, which seems to be the implication in Q's post, although that meaning is also given in the Macquarie, along with: n, 1. one who struggles continually and persistently against heavy odds; 2. a conscientious worker, esp. one living at subsistence level; 3. an itinerant worker reduced to living as a swagman; 4. (colloq) a prostitute. |
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16 Nov 03 - 08:21 PM (#1055092) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: McGrath of Harlow Could "hoon" be from "hun"? |
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16 Nov 03 - 09:43 PM (#1055129) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Bob Bolton G'day, McGrath: Of course it could be fake folk etymology - but it sounds quite plausible to me. That's the first hallmark of 'folk etymology'! There are no citations from written/published sources of this meaning in The Australian National Dictionary, 1988, (which is probably the source of the Australian citations in the latest OED mentioned by Q, as it was a local Oxford project - giving full OED treatment to local Australian words.) The popularity of the later meaning of typical working-class Australian definitely is linked with the Mavis Bramston Show - whch was something of a succès de scandale ... until the Catholic church's threat to sell offr their huge shareholding in Ampol (petrol company - sponsor of MB Show) if they didn't censor the show! As regards "Hun" as source for "Hoon" I think that unlikely since the 'flash'/'pimp' usages were common here long before the revival of "Hun" for Germans (post-Bismarck - WW 1 ... ?). Regards, |
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16 Nov 03 - 10:15 PM (#1055137) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: GUEST,An Púca Whatever about deriving hoon < hooligan, the word hooligan is itself derived from an Irish surname, O hUallacháin, more commonly anglicised now as Houlihan. The slur on the Irish character (undeserved of course) apparently happened in London. A similar process seems to be behind a particularly Australian coinage where larrikan would seem to derive from the surname Larkin or in gaelic Ó Lorcáin. Is that what those Aussie dictionaries say over there in Oz? And go the Wallabies! |
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17 Nov 03 - 12:01 AM (#1055163) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Q (Frank Staplin) Hooligan appeared in the 1890s in New York, and also in London. There are three postulated sources. Take your pick. 1. From Hooley, or Hooley's gang. A misunderstanding of that name led to hooligan. Reports of "hooligan" gangs in the London papers. 2. Hooligan gangs in London; the name from a "Patrick Hooligan", a bouncer at the Lamb and Flag pub, who had a gang and who died in jail after murdering a policeman. 3. Hooligan figured in a music hall song of the 1890s about a rowdy Irish family. Information mostly from the OED. 1902- Character song, "Happy Hooligan," pub. in the music supplement of the New York American and Journal (Can be seen on line in the Levy Collection). Hooley, a not uncommon surname. The Hooley Minstrels performed in the Civil War period. Larrikin- 1882, in Jago, Ancient Language and Dialect of Cornwall: "Mischievous young fellows, or larkers." 1868, Harper, in Letters from New Zealand: "We are beset with larrikins, who lurk about in the darkness..." The earliest in print so far found. |
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17 Nov 03 - 12:02 AM (#1055165) Subject: RE: Folklore: Etymology - Oz & Aussie From: Q (Frank Staplin) Hrothgar, thanks for the additional information on "battler." |