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02 Nov 03 - 12:53 PM (#1046270) Subject: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: RichM quoted from a news article in my local paper(The Ottawa Citizen, ottawa ON Canada) "Two American soldiers in Baghdad face charges of dereliction of duty after they converted to Islam and married two Iraqi women in defiance of orders. In the capital's summer heat, Sgt. Sean Blackwell and Cpl. Brett Dagen fell for two Iraqi translators. But few have empathized with the romances that began when the Americans met the women in the hotel they were guarding. The women are now in hiding after receiving death threats from those who consider them to be, quite literally, sleeping with the enemy. The men got married while on foot patrol in August, conducting a hasty ceremony in full combat gear, M116 rifles in hand. Sgt.Blackwell, 27, and Cpl. Dagen, 37, have been confined to the base while the incident is under investigation. A spokesman for the 1st Armoured division said:" They disobeyed a direct order from their commanders not to get married. They also neglected their duty while on patrol. They're in serious trouble." The plight of the women is no less grave. Joanne, 26 and her best friend Ahda 25, have been in hiding since the weddings, fearful that they will be targeted as collaborators. The women have not seen their husbands since the day they tied the knot and it is unlikely they will meet again before the soldiers' deployment ends in eight months. All the women have to console them are photographs of their wedding day and an Iraqi marriage certificate which, in accordance with Islamic practice, shows a payment of $1000 US by the grooms and a compensation pledge of $10,000 in case of divorce. Yes, I know I should simply reference a web address to the above quoted news article, but the newspaper's website has a very poor search engine, so I quoted the whole article. My reason for starting a thread is this: Why is the military punishing these men? Such marriages can present a positive strategic advantage to the US's campaign to influence Iraqis' thinking. ---Because: marriage has always been an important way to reconcile enemies! Examples are weddings between allied soldiers and "enemy" women in world war two, the Korean UN action 1950-54 and Vietnam." So what do YOU think: Should the american military be "throwing the book" at these soldiers? |
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02 Nov 03 - 01:34 PM (#1046287) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: Bobert Why does the US have General that is wearing his uniform to churches an speaking of Islam as Satanic? Hmmmmm? Not in my name and not on my tax dollars, thank you... Yeah, Bush talks a good game but that's where it ends: talk! These two guys should get accomodations (as in medals, not cells...) for what they have done... and the General? Busted down to buck private and given latrene duty fir a couple of years... Bobert |
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02 Nov 03 - 01:47 PM (#1046292) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: McGrath of Harlow Is the offence supposed to be converting to Islam? Or getting married without permisssion? Or both? |
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02 Nov 03 - 02:22 PM (#1046315) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: Amos Getting married while under direct orders not to do so; and secondly, dereliction of duty by taking the time out for the ceremony. "Perfectly sensible" from a tight-ass military standpoint, and very rough on the young folks. A |
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02 Nov 03 - 02:31 PM (#1046318) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: McGrath of Harlow But whether there was a military offence involved, that doesn't stop these being valid marriages. Here's a link to a bunch of stories about this Here is one bizarre quote from one of them: "It is just bad timing. It's not because they are Americans. Nobody gets married to a soldier from an occupying army," said the neighbour, before admitting: "I love America because they make great horror movies." |
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02 Nov 03 - 07:41 PM (#1046453) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: mg I have never heard you could command someone not to get married..perhaps if they were the enemy of course..not that the military has ever made it easy for anyone to get married, least of all in a war zone..mg |
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02 Nov 03 - 07:52 PM (#1046458) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: McGrath of Harlow Well, these young ladies were evidently actually employed by the Americans at the time, and presumably would have been security checked in order for that to be possible. (Moreover, one of them had been living and working in Paris, according to one report, and went home to Iraq after Saddam fell. Maybe the commandeing offic overheard her talking French, and flipped...) |
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02 Nov 03 - 07:56 PM (#1046459) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: Murray MacLeod call me an incurably romantic old fool if you will, but I would give these "marriages" six months max, even with the blessing of the authorities .... Murray |
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02 Nov 03 - 08:19 PM (#1046468) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull sounds like a load of made up crap to sell newspapers to me, never heard of any muslim women called "Joanne"! |
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02 Nov 03 - 08:37 PM (#1046472) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: Amos Well it looks like genuine love and war or no, it should be given its way. In my romantically humble opinion! A |
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02 Nov 03 - 08:39 PM (#1046474) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: mack/misophist Note to j0hn from Hull: I have. The military has always been death on soldiers marrying while in a war zone. Even in an occupied country it requires the commanding officer's consent. The rationale that's been used in the past is that the guys are usually young, unsophisticated, and horney and the women are often just looking for support checks and/or American citizenship. Fair or not, that's the way is. |
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03 Nov 03 - 04:49 AM (#1046619) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: Hrothgar In the grand old days of the British Army, when there were a limited number of "wives" carried on the rations, it was definitely against the King's Regs to marry without permission. Kipling refers to it in one of his poems about the Boer War: "There are girls he's married secret, asking no permission to, "Cause he knew he wouldn't get it if he did." The quote is from memory, by the way. Please don't start a war if i don't have it exact. |
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03 Nov 03 - 01:50 PM (#1046959) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: McGrath of Harlow It might be a military offence for a soldier to marry without permisssion - but that can in no way affect the validity of the marriage. No doubt there'll be films drawing on this situation, the way there were about warbrides in the Second World War. (For example "I Was a Male Warbride" with Cary Grant. |
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03 Nov 03 - 08:52 PM (#1047251) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: Peace Yeah. When soldiers are in combat zones, they are held to a tighter and stricter security. If they were away from their post(s), they are in deep poo-poo. If they disobeyed a direct order from a superior, they are in deep poo-poo. Poo-poo doesn't begin to describe what the Iraqi women are in. |
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03 Nov 03 - 08:56 PM (#1047257) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull mack/miso fist-you missed my point! Joanne is not a muslim name, ie there are no muslim women called joanne, Moira,Fatima etc, yes, but not Joanne, or Wendy or Tracy, its not a muslim name. |
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03 Nov 03 - 09:44 PM (#1047302) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: Peg 'Muslim" refers to religion; not nationality. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Muslims can be Turkish, Italian, Japanese, Ethiopian, Dutch, or Canadian. People who convert to Islam do not need to change their names, either. there is no logic to t he statement that :"Joanne is not a Muslim name." That is like saying "Malika is not a Catholic name." |
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03 Nov 03 - 09:59 PM (#1047312) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: mack/misophist Note to j0hn from Hull: What I said was 'I have'. That seems simple enough to me. |
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04 Nov 03 - 04:23 AM (#1047467) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: Wolfgang A link for John: Joanne Richards (Muslim). So you'll never more have to say that you have never heard of any muslim women called "Joanne" Wolfgang |
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04 Nov 03 - 05:55 AM (#1047514) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: Dave Bryant Did either of these women have a mustache, seem a bit masculine and rather older than "her" years ? |
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04 Nov 03 - 04:01 PM (#1047914) Subject: RE: BS: US soldiers wed Iraqis? From: Peace We're really splitting hairs here. |