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06 Sep 98 - 06:32 PM (#37244) Subject: O'Carolan's Air From: Suibhan Now this is a long shot, but I have faith in the Mudcatters. I have an old tutorial entitled "First Harp Book" by Betty Paret. I have no idea when it was published. It contains a tune titled "O'Carolans Air." Now, in checking the Carolan website that have complete listings of his works, I don't find any with this title. I am only familiar with 5 of his songs (I know, as a harper I should know all of them). I wonder if anyone is familiar with this book or which tune this might be? I think the author just gave it a generic name. I know this is sketchy and a bit off the track - thanks in advance. Suibhan |
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06 Sep 98 - 07:16 PM (#37250) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Helen Hi Suibhan, How is the harping going? I think you must be a better player than me already - ah, the joys of having a harp teacher *and* the motivation to practise (sigh!). Do you have a copy of Noteworthy or any other music notation software? (You can download a demo copy of Noteworthy from the internet at http://www.ntworthy.com/composer/dloadnwc.htm - make sure you choose the right version for your computer - then type in the tune, play it like a midi file, print it out, save it etc. If you typed in even the first few bars onto Noteworthy and sent me the file I could probably(?) identify the tune. I don't have the book you are referring to, but you could also try asking the harplist because someone is sure to have it. Also, have you looked up this O'Carolan page? http://www.contemplator.com/carolan.html She has some of the best known O'Carolan tunes there. Talk to you later Helen |
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06 Sep 98 - 08:13 PM (#37259) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Jack Hickman Would it be Carolan's Concerto by any chance? |
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06 Sep 98 - 11:31 PM (#37272) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Suibhan Thanks Helen, the harping is going very well. I will try what you suggested (unfortunately what you see in front of you is the extent of my computer skill). And no, I'm afraid it's not Carolan's Concerto. That's one I know. |
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07 Sep 98 - 11:12 AM (#37306) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: harpgirl Suibhan, In "Forty Three Arrangements of O"Carolan Tunes for Diatonic Autoharp" by Stephen J. Young some listed airs are George Brabazon (First Air), George Brabazon (Second Air), Bridget Cruise (Third Air), John Drury (First Air), Mrs. Maxwell (First Air), John O"Reilly (First Air). Could any of these be the mystery Air? (I know you and Helen are real harpists, but I love O'Carolan, as well. harpgirl |
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07 Sep 98 - 12:52 PM (#37326) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Bruce O. Donal O'Sullivan gives 213 tunes in his 'Carolan: The Life Times and Music of an Irish Harper', but casts doubt that about a dozen are really by Carolan. How about giving an ABC of the tune, or a theme code? Theme codes were devised for this purpose, identifying a tune whatever its cited title. There are as many as three titles for some Carolan tunes, and the same title is sometimes used for different tunes. |
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07 Sep 98 - 01:13 PM (#37328) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Bruce O. "Air by Carolan" in P. O'Farrell's Pocket Companion, Part 4 (Vol. 2, part 2, 1810) is "Princess Royal". There are also tunes by Carolan of unknown title that someone may have applied a descriptive title to. |
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08 Sep 98 - 03:46 PM (#37456) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Ian HP You could try the MIDI tunes on the excellent O'Carolan website - http://www.epix.net/~lesley/carolan.html#top |
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08 Sep 98 - 09:56 PM (#37516) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Helen Ian, I forgot to say that the site address I gave is the updated site address for your www.epix.net site. It's the best O'Carolan site that I know of. Helen |
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04 Apr 19 - 01:10 AM (#3985763) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: GUEST,marilyn Twenty -one years later!!! I too am looking for a source for this. Can't find it in O'Sullivan. But it appears in a French harp book a little newer. Still a mystery. |
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04 Apr 19 - 02:01 AM (#3985764) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Bonnie Shaljean What's the name of the French harp book, and who is it by? Also, remember that a number of tunes have been credited to Carolan over the years which are not actually composed by him. The O'Neill collection from the early 20th century is one such source of confusion (music's still good, though). Are you sure that the air in Paret (which is not a historical source) referred to in the first post is the same as the one in the French book? "Carolan's Air" is only a generic title, and he wrote a lot of airs! If you have a way of giving us the melody - either to read or hear - it would enable us to be of more help. |
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04 Apr 19 - 02:25 AM (#3985766) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Helen From: Bruce O. - PM Date: 07 Sep 98 - 01:13 PM "Air by Carolan" in P. O'Farrell's Pocket Companion, Part 4 (Vol. 2, part 2, 1810) is "Princess Royal". There are also tunes by Carolan of unknown title that someone may have applied a descriptive title to. If we could see/hear the tune it would be a lot easier, but if Bruce O checked the book and said it was Princess Royal, then I would be prepared to bet that he knew what he was talking about. Lovely tune, by the way: Miss McDermott Roe aka Princess Royal Please show us the music somehow. It's impossible to name a tune without any idea of what the tune is. |
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04 Apr 19 - 03:41 AM (#3985772) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Jack Campin If Bruce was right and it's really "Princess Royal", that's easy to find. Betty Paret's book will only be known to harpists. If anybody reading this has got it, just upload a photo of the start of the tune to the Mudcat FB group. |
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04 Apr 19 - 03:58 AM (#3985777) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Bonnie Shaljean No gots the Paret, but I may have the French book Marilyn refers to, if she can give its name and who compiled it. Or else reproduce the score, as you say. And is the tune she wants the same actual music as that referred to by Suibhan all those years ago in Paret? It's not clear to me whether Marilyn has both books or is just going by the name. "Air" could be anything - I've seen that title appended to loads of his works, even when they have perfectly identifiable other names. |
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04 Apr 19 - 06:45 AM (#3985817) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Helen I remember someone sent me a scanned copy about 20 years ago of a tune which was supposedly by O'Carolan, and which had no identifying info in the title. It may even have been Suibhan because of this thread. I saw it in one of my music folders a few weeks ago. I hope I didn't throw it out. I found it very difficult to make any sense of the tune. It seemed to be very generic in melody and I didn't think it resembled the other O'Carolan tunes I had heard. Look what I just found: O’Carolan’s Air, Betty Paret's First Harp Book O’Carolan’s Air, played by Josh Layne Bingo! Look at the Josh Layne video at 1 minute 10 seconds. He briefly holds up the music, which is on the lower part of the right hand page. Depending on how good your eyesight is, you might be able to get a look at the music notation. It doesn't sound like O'Carolan's Princess Royal tune at all to me, but Josh Layne's version rings a vague bell with me. Alternatively, I'm wondering whether the book's author composed the tune, "inspired" by O'Carolan and named it for him. |
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04 Apr 19 - 06:49 AM (#3985818) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Mick Pearce (MCP) The Betty Paret tune can be found on youtube: Betty Paret - O'Carolan's Air. I've put a transcription below. I had a quick scan through O'Sullivan (though I have both versions, I used the newer singe volume version with contributions by a harper on this thread!) and couldn't see it. JC Tunefinder also failed to give me anything for the tune. (For the title Carolan's Air it does return 2 copies of an unrelated tune). I did wonder if Betty Paret wrote the tune as a Carolan's First Tune type, but without the book I couldn't say. Mick X:1 T:O'Carolan's Air C:Betty Paret? N: Source is youtube recording of Betty Paret F: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNnUpAaQY_w B: Betty Paret - First Harp Book M:3/4 L:1/4 Q:1/4=100 K:Daeo D|A A B/A/| G G A/G/| F/E/ D/E/ F/G/| A2 D| A A B/A/| G G A/G/| F/E/ D/E/ F/G/| A2 A|| d d A| B G G| c c G| A F F| d > e f| c A G| F D D| D2 |] |
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04 Apr 19 - 07:05 AM (#3985824) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Helen Mick Pearce, thank you. You and I posted at almost the same time, but you did a lot more work than me because you transcribed the music. |
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04 Apr 19 - 07:11 AM (#3985826) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Jack Campin It's basically "As Susie was walking" from the Penguin Book of English Folk Songs. Can't see how Carolan could have had anything to do with it. |
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04 Apr 19 - 07:19 AM (#3985827) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Helen Here is a forum discussion of the tune: harpcolumn forum topic - Origin of "O'Carolan's Air" The post by Biagio on March 11, 2019 at 1:07 pm says he/she? "asked a few Irish music scholars. Here’s the consensus: “We don’t know, but it is not consistent in style with his other compositions, nor is it any known tune by him. It could be a later ‘imitation’ for copyright or similar reasons, written as a tribute, or a modern composition intended to suggest his style. If Betty Paret cannot be reached it may be the latter (by her).” It's funny, well it is to me anyway, that near the beginning of the thread someone states that it is Carolan's Welcome, even though it sounds nothing like that lovely, distinctive tune. Curiouser and curiouser, but I'm tending towards the idea that it was written as a tribute to Turlough O'Carolan. |
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04 Apr 19 - 07:27 AM (#3985844) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Jack Campin ...and my apologies to Sylvie for getting her name wrong. |
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04 Apr 19 - 07:39 AM (#3985833) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Bonnie Shaljean [Tried posting this a minute ago without luck] Yes, it's a traditional song air, which both Michael and I know of as being English, As Sylvie Was Walking (which is not to say there couldn't be an Irish version floating around). The tune in the singing penguins book is slightly different, but the Paret one is clearly a version of it. Now, the question is - is the melody Marilyn refers to in the French book the same as this one? If not, what is the one she wants, I wonder? Lots of stuff gets attributed to Carolan that isn't. But it's always lovely to have them brought to attention anyway. Thanks for the mention, Mick! Cheers... |
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04 Apr 19 - 07:41 AM (#3985834) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Bonnie Shaljean BTW, "Carolan's Welcome" is a modern title given to one of Carolan's unnamed airs by The Chieftains, when the Pope came to visit Ireland back in the 70s. |
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04 Apr 19 - 07:43 AM (#3985835) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Bonnie Shaljean ...and my "yes" was in answer to Jack (cross-posted with Helen). It's a trad song air. |
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04 Apr 19 - 08:00 AM (#3985837) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Hi Helen - yes we clearly cross-posted earlier. Reading the harpcolumn thread, there seems to have been some mix up with the links at one time and it's possible that a version of Carolan's Welcome was incorrectly linked, causing the mix-up with that tune (which, as you say, the Paret tune clearly isn't). The preview at sheetmusicplus.com linked in that thread is however a version: O'Carolan's Air for harp and flute (preview) (again the tune credited to Carolan). Mick |
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04 Apr 19 - 08:04 AM (#3985838) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Bonnie Shaljean Oh dear. That misinformation is going to run and run and run... I guess it's the new folk process, fuelled by the internet. |
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04 Apr 19 - 10:17 AM (#3985888) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Nicely identified Jack and Bonnie -no wonder it sounded so familiar! The only Irish version listed in the Roud index is by Paddy Tunney - Once I Had A True Love. The words are in The Stone Fiddle (without music) and he recorded it on A Wild Bees' Nest, but that seems more like a version of She Moves Through The Fair/ Out Of The Window. Hopefully Marilyn will return to tell us what her French book was, though I do note that Panorama de la harpe celtique - Dominig Bouchaud, 1986 does contain Air (O'Carolan), but no way to tell which air!. Mick |
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04 Apr 19 - 10:36 AM (#3985893) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Bonnie Shaljean OK, checked my copy of Panorama, and the "Air" attributed to Carolan is the same as the Paret tune: in other words, it's another (simpler) version of As Sylvie Was Walking - and the melody line is pretty much note for note the same as Paret's (though I haven't compared them bar by bar). Incidentally, Women of Ireland in that book is erroneously noted as being traditional Irish, but in fact it was composed by Seán Ó Riada (Mná na hÉireann). |
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04 Apr 19 - 02:23 PM (#3985928) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Helen Well spotted, Jack. I have never heard the Sylvie song. Either Sylvie is long dead, or she was fictional anyway, so she won't care. LOL And Bonnie, thanks for the info on how Carolan's Welcome transitioned from an unnamed tune in the O'Sullivan collection to having a title. I never knew that. On the harpcolumn forum, Josh Layne comments: "..the tune is in Samuel Milligan’s “Fun From the First volume II” (harmonized differently). Milligan titles it as “Air” and lists O’Carolan as the composer" which is, I suspect the type of misinformation which Bonnie referred to above. Based on my assumption that Betty Paret's book was published first, then another person sees the Air attributed to O'Carolan and prints it in their book and before too long it is an "established fact". One of the reasons that I could never reconcile the O'Carolan Air with any of the other pieces attributed to him is that his melodies are what I describe as deceptively simple. They appear to be simple and uncomplicated but they have all sorts of interesting bits in the melody which make them unlike any other melody I have ever heard. There are probably proper musical descriptions of what I am saying so please forgive my untrained ramblings. Even his relatively uncomplicated melodies have an interesting lilt and to me most of his tunes are rivetting. The more complex tunes like Mrs Judge - The Chieftains , or Miss MacDermott (Princes Royal) or The Fairy Queen or Carolan's Welcome are even more rivetting. (Note: The midi files are arranged by Barry Taylor. I love his arrangements.) I could go on and on. I can understand why some harpers specialise in Carolan's music. It's probably like scuba diving at the Great Barrier Reef (Queensland, Oz) - which I haven't done. The more you see, the more there is to see. I suspect that I might have chucked out the paper copy of O'Carolan's Air when I saw it a few weeks ago. "What will I ever need that for?" says my rational brain, but Murphy's Law says, "chuck it out and then you will need it!" It looks like the page that Josh Layne held up in the video so I am fairly confident that it is from the Paret book. I also suspect that the original post on this thread was by a woman who was also on the email harplist way back then. If it is the same woman, she was an American and a flight attendant. She came to Sydney on a flight, took a two hour train trip to Newcastle and visited me. She spent most of the visit practising the harp. She was way, way better than me, because I have been bumbling along with no teacher except for a short period a few years later. That probably explains my comment about her harp playing in my first post. |
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04 Apr 19 - 11:45 PM (#3985970) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Helen Ok. After much searching through my music sheets and folders I found the O'Carolan's Air music sheet hiding in plain sight - well almost. I had placed it in my copy of Bunting's excellent and informative book. I've checked Mick Pearce's ABC notation by loading it into the ABC Converter at mandolintab.net and yes, it is exactly the same, note for note. It is also exactly the same page as the one which Josh Layne held up in his video because I can see the four staves of the previous tune on the top of the page and they are the same as those on my page. So, if you feel so inclined Mick, you could remove the question mark after Betty Paret's name in the third line of the ABC notation. I don't know about you, but I am inclined to think that the mystery is solved. Here is some detailed info about As Sylvie Was Walking and variations of the song. In the dim distant, pre-technological communication era (i.e. the 1960's)it could be an easily understandable error to hear an old tune from at least the previous century and jump to the conclusion that it could possibly be a tune composed by Turlough O'Carolan. At that time, harp music method books were as scarce as hens' teeth, so any folk-sounding tune with no pesky accidentals would be right at home in a beginner's harp book. There may be other explanations about Betty Paret's reasoning in giving it that title, but in my opinion it does not appear to be a tune by O'Carolan. If you have read the harpcolumn forum you would realise that Mudcat has scored a major victory here, thanks to Jack and Bonnie's musical knowledge, because they haven't found the answer yet on the other forum. All praise the Mudcat! Yeah, I know. It's not a competition. We musicians and music lovers should all collaborate and work together to find solutions to musical mysteries, but I'm impressed!! :-D |
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05 Apr 19 - 04:33 AM (#3985983) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Bonnie Shaljean Thanks, Helen! I love Harpcolumn but haven't been there in ages (not its fault, only mine). It was also nice to be reminded of the Harplist email listserv, from back in the days when the internet and I were young (well... in my case... younger) and I probably "saw" you there. Any idea if it's still going? I thought I would post the words to Sylvie while I'm here, and rather than type them out from the Penguin book, I took a peek in Muscat's invaluable Digitrad archive. And lo & behold, there she is, complete with musical notation! Still, finding it sooner would have short-circuited some great chat on this thread. Here's yon (since I'm in folk mode) link - but the blue clickifier resolutely Will Not Work this morning, even though the info is correct, so it's a copy-paste job: AS SYLVIE WAS WALKING - MUDCAT DIGITRAD https://mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=354 |
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05 Apr 19 - 05:24 AM (#3985989) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Helen AS SYLVIE WAS WALKING - MUDCAT DIGITRAD Hi Bonnie, sometimes the linkmaker works, sometimes it doesn't. Yes we probably did "meet" on the email harplist, way back when. I stopped using it because I was very busy with a demanding job. That job has a lot to answer for, because I stopped going to the regular music sessions too until 10 years later but I never did get back to the harplist. I don't know if it is still in existence. It might have been superseded by a newer technology. |
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05 Apr 19 - 06:33 AM (#3985995) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Bonnie Shaljean Waaahhhh... I just get 404 Not Found when I click on that link. Anyway, the copy-paste one works. I'm so glad this thread was resuscitated, and to get reacquainted with Sylvie. The overall movement and tonality of the air remind me a bit of Once I Had A Sweetheart, which I first heard Baez do back in my coffeehouse days, and Pentangle picked it up too (along with about a zillion others). I must revisit that song as well. I love how these discussions rekindle interest in things you haven't thought about for yonks. Cheers for all the helpful input! |
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05 Apr 19 - 07:18 AM (#3985999) Subject: RE: O'Carolan's Air From: Jack Campin Doing that link manually: to Digitrad |