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09 Dec 03 - 11:05 AM (#1068445) Subject: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot When Mayor Livingstone tried to speak from the England Rugby team's Victory bus during the London celebration, he was booed by a substantial portion of the three-quarter of a million crowd. I wonder why they did this? Is it because Livingstone in prepaired to celebrate every ethnic group in London - apart from the English, whose capital, after all, this is? Perhaps the crowd remembered too well Mayor Livingstone's enthusiasim for St Patrick's Day and his churlish dismissal of St George's Day? Maybe I have got it totally wrong? It could be they just hated his whinney nasely tone or his holier-than-thou sanctimonious comments? Does anyone have any view on this? |
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09 Dec 03 - 11:16 AM (#1068454) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,Taxpayer A good point indeed EP. We English are not very good at being English anymore are we? It's almost as if we are expected to apologise for merely existing. We need a damn good shot of American style patriotism! Stand by for a lot of lefty pinky posts. |
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09 Dec 03 - 12:49 PM (#1068526) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: John MacKenzie I think the two previous posters have got the wrong web site! Giok |
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09 Dec 03 - 02:23 PM (#1068609) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: ard mhacha I cannot understand why all of those Labourites that support the Rugger lads would boo one of their own, and if you believe that you will believe anything, the English Rugger people are all upper class twits, so they are hardly going to cheer "red" Ken. PINK PETE. |
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09 Dec 03 - 02:34 PM (#1068622) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: greg stephens ard mhacha: if you are right and there are 750,000 upper class twits in London, we have got problems. |
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09 Dec 03 - 02:49 PM (#1068633) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,Teribus Well done the lads, hope they and everyone who went along enjoyed it - and that is from a Scot. One good thing about it - with no connection to this thread or Rugby - everybody seems to be in agreement about the numbers - so next time the Peace at anyone else's expense crowd are out, we have something to compare it to when they tell us that 500,000 people were on the march. |
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09 Dec 03 - 02:55 PM (#1068634) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Wolfgang In Germany, any politician of any political leaning would be booed if speaking at a sports celebration. The feeling behind that is 'Can't they just only once shut up when we want to celebrate and not think about politics and tomorrow'. Wolfgang |
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09 Dec 03 - 02:55 PM (#1068635) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Strupag I'm with Giok on this one. |
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09 Dec 03 - 03:31 PM (#1068665) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: TheBigPinkLad Booing is a good way to show your displeasure, ask Monica Seles. |
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09 Dec 03 - 04:07 PM (#1068699) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: McGrath of Harlow While I'd always expect some boos and raspberries from a sporting crowd for any politician, I'd doubt if too much can be read into this. Here's what a trawl through Google News threw up from a regional paper serving the West Country heartland of Rugby Union (not a traditionally left-wing part of the country). As for the "English culture is under attack" bit, it's worth remembering that London's native culture has not for a very long time (if ever) had much to do with rural traditions such as Morris dancing and such. Music Hall and Cockney has been much more the thing, and in a real sense this is the tradition within which Ken Livingstone fits in his style. And the street Cockney culture was very much based on immigrants into London, both from the country, but also especially Irish and Jewish and others from further afield. |
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09 Dec 03 - 04:41 PM (#1068721) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,Ken's ok But at least, due to his ornithological foresight, he didn't get shat on by pesky pigeons........... |
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09 Dec 03 - 06:38 PM (#1068797) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: McGrath of Harlow The quote I left out from that piece I linked to in that last post was: "The only dissenting boos - and even they seemed good-natured - were reserved for the Mayor, Ken Livingstone, as he bestowed the Freedom of the City of London on the England team." Actually it wasn't "the Freedom of the City of London" - that woudl have needed the Lord Mayor of the City of London, which is a tiny area in the middle of London. Ken was talking about the Freedom of London, which is a very much larger area. |
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09 Dec 03 - 07:03 PM (#1068822) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,Ken's an arsehole Ard Mahacha. The crowd that turned up were from across a broad spectrum of English life, and not just drawn from upper class twits. I doubt if there were many upper class people there. McGrath. I fully realise that London culture is made up of disparate people; but what that has to do with anything, Christ alone knows? Try and keep focused. The parade was for England which happened to take place in London, so the emphasis is on England and the English people. Anyway, someone who is Jewish can still be English. A second generation Englishman of Irish descent is still an Englishman. |
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10 Dec 03 - 03:57 AM (#1069081) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,Boab I mostly skip letters and articles signed "Patriot" and "taxpayer". They are often written by the same 'way-out-right" individual in any case. Teribus---while I was on the lookout for the first opportunistic comment about "peace-march" numbers, I hardly expected it coming from the mudcat forum. Maybe , instead of putting any perspective on the relevance of the many thousands who marched against war, it can just as well be said to be indicative of the love of more trivial things being expressed by such large numbers of people? |
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10 Dec 03 - 04:15 AM (#1069085) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Roger the Skiffler Personally, although I have a lot of time for Ken (tho' he's not always right!) I object to him, and Tony Blair trying to cash in on sporting success of others to boost their own political popularity. I see the Queen has to have knee surgery, apparently she damaged it showing Johnny Wilkinson how to kick drop goals.... RtS |
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10 Dec 03 - 08:54 AM (#1069267) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,anti royalist However will she cope with a year long wait to get into a one star rated NHS germ palace........ I heard she hurt it kicking Charles'/Andrew's/Edward's ass. |
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10 Dec 03 - 10:07 AM (#1069344) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: John Routledge Last night a friend commented that he was delighted that England had won the Rugby World Cup but that he would go to a desert island for a year if England ever won the soccer world cup again as the English would be unbearable. Perhaps this confirms our inability to deal with success :0) |
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10 Dec 03 - 03:00 PM (#1069608) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: TheBigPinkLad Pretty safe bet. I'll go and live with her for a year if Australia wins it. |
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10 Dec 03 - 03:13 PM (#1069614) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot Taxpayer,it looks like Boab (??)usually ignores us. I dunno about you, but I can live with that. Take heart that at the end of the day, Mayor Livingstone was booed by his own people. That alone has brought a cheer to my heart which nothing can take away. It is just a shame that all the exiled pigeons of London didn't gather together and shat all over his head. Now that would have been something to celebrate. |
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10 Dec 03 - 06:13 PM (#1069721) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Jim McLean As a Scot I was pleased for the English as winning a world event is quite a superb achievement. I was just a bit surprised that 750,000 English people would flood the streets of London to celebrate a game which demands the kicking, biting and stamping on players heads when only 250,000 turned up to protest about violence in Iraq... and there was no warning from the police to keep away as such a massive turnout could be a danger to security as there was in the anti war protest. |
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10 Dec 03 - 09:19 PM (#1069847) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: McGrath of Harlow The counting of numbers in the streets of London is a pretty arbotrary procedure. Anything to do with royalty or sport and the figures tend to be inflated, anything from the left figures tend to be reduced. "Countryside marches" pro-blood sports events tend to be treated like royalty in the papers that like that sort of thing. The truth is, London's pretty well a country, and that's where the real patriotism of most Londoners is directed. As is only right and proper. My feeling is that healthy patriotism is primarily a local thing, and only secondarily directed towards the country within which that locality is situated, and that's where it differs from nationalism. |
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11 Dec 03 - 04:59 AM (#1070058) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Wolfgang The counting of numbers in the streets of London is a pretty arbotrary procedure. Arbitrary? Do you actually know how they do it in Britain so you can say with reason it is arbitrary? Here's how it is done in Germany with big demonstrations: (1) They take a picture from a helicopter. (2) They blow it up to wall size. (3) They put a regular grid on it. (4) They count the number of people in three small grid squares (5) They average the three counts to get an estimation of people within one square. (6) They multiply by number of squares covering the demonstration (with some error correction for the fringes) to get an estimate of the number of people in the demonstration. (7) They repeat the procedure twice with different grid squares to get an idea how variable their estimate is. Of course, they still could chose not to publish the best estimation for political reasons. But a likely explanation is also that the bias is in the perception of those having a strong motive for wishing some types of demonstrations smaller and some bigger than they actually are. As I said I don't know what is true in this special case. I do know, however, that the routine counting procedure in Germany is not arbitrary. Wolfgang |
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11 Dec 03 - 05:54 AM (#1070096) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Dave Bryant When Ken was chairman of the GLC, there were many events organised by County Hall which included all sorts of british folk activities. Thames Day used to be a wonderful event with plenty of morris dancers and some great shanty singing. |
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11 Dec 03 - 07:14 AM (#1070131) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: ard mhacha There would be little effort needed to count the numer of spectators at any English National League game [Union]. My reckoning would be an average of around 5,000 at the matches, if all of those hanger-ons that welcomed the England team home, gave their support to their local team, there would be fewer Clubs struggling to survive. Ard Mhacha. |
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11 Dec 03 - 09:06 AM (#1070196) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,Teribus Well said AM, absolutely right. |
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11 Dec 03 - 03:25 PM (#1070449) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: ard mhacha I did a check and I was a little bit out, the correct 9,000 figure is still very small, the record attendance is 20,000 at a game between Bristol and Bath. Ard Mhacha. |
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11 Dec 03 - 04:24 PM (#1070488) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,Ken's OK Yes, he did lay on a few good jollies in GLC days. I seem to remember a "winter festival" in Jubilee gardens........Gary Glitter appearing, amongst others that I can not recall,too many gigs under the bridge since then. Also remember him introducing Billy Bragg on a Red Wedge Tour, possibly at The Mean Fiddler? Memory failing now. Personally I do think he is more in tune with what the majority of Londoners want....he was elected.....whether he can deliver will invariably be what he is judged upon. As a Londoner I am glad he is our "representative".......he rides the tube, has the familiar face of a well worn cushion, and keeps newts. I think these should be the criteria all World leaders and Heads of state are hitherto obliged to fulfill. And I totally agree with McGrath of Harlow.......I am proud of being a Londoner wherever I may be in the world........but alas can not say the same about being English, and would rather pay homage to my parents birthplace and be know as London Irish. |
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11 Dec 03 - 04:32 PM (#1070495) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Gareth ard mhacha and Teribus agreeing ! This is taking the season of goodwill to all men too far !!!!! Gareth **BG** |
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12 Dec 03 - 02:51 AM (#1070774) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST Ken's ok: It amazes me how someone like you can be born in London, be proud being a Londoner, and yet consider themselves to be more proud of being Irish than being English. Does anyone in Dublin consider themselves to be more proud of being a Dubliner than being an Irishman? I doubt it. And anyway, what gives Londerners a superiority over the rest of England? What Ken does is to play off all the different racial groups against the English in order to seize and retain power. (A lesson learnt from the British Empire, by the way.) This is why he gets elected. As an Englishman, I shall never stop considering myself as being under enemy occupation why that opportunist is in power. Ken's ok: you may consider yourself better thansomeone from York, Bristol, Manchester, Salisbury, etc, but I doubt it somehow. Admacha: If I was showning the same pride at being Irish, I bet you would have been full of approval. By the way, how is your Engish wife whom you slagged off in Medlark some weeks ago? |
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12 Dec 03 - 02:57 AM (#1070776) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot The last posting was by me, by the way. I forgot to put my name on it. Incidentally Ken's ok, would you tell us why you are proud of being a London Irish and not being an Englishman? You are born in England afterall. This idea that people feel a stronger loyalty to their city than theier country is not something I have found. All my London friends think of themselves as Englishmen first and Londoners second. I don't suppose anyone here will be joining me in celebrating St George's Day next year, then? |
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12 Dec 03 - 03:50 AM (#1070784) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,Taxpayer I said umpteen posts ago that this thread would get all lefty, and boy was I right. No this is not EP posting again, it is another patriotic englishman who has to keep his head down because the Guardian readers have taken over! |
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12 Dec 03 - 04:59 AM (#1070822) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Jim McLean I don't how you can say Guardian readers have taken over. Yesterday's Guardian ran an article concerning the National Anthem. I'm still not clear as to whether they meant the UK or the English one as the reporter begun by asking about the UK NA but evidently meant England's NA. Can some English Patriot out there enlighten me as the Guardian is obviously confused? |
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12 Dec 03 - 05:25 AM (#1070832) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot Taxpayer, where have you been. Your voice is desperately needed here. As for the English national anthem, it must be, of course, Jerusalem. |
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12 Dec 03 - 05:58 AM (#1070851) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Nigel Parsons Unfortunately the thread title is too long for a parody, But a chorus could start: "Red Ken in Trafalgar Square...." (originally) "I live in Trafalgar Square, Four lions to guard me..." Nigel |
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12 Dec 03 - 12:31 PM (#1070995) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: ard mhacha Things are going from bad to worse, English Patriot is now accusing me of bigamy, as a devout lesbian I am only allowed one wife, and as for you being patriotic that is not a problem, have you any idea what it is like to be a minority Celt?, we are being bombarded with Wilko and "Herman Monster" Johnson, not to mention all of those hanger-ons that couldn`t tell a Rugby ball from a Turnip. Ard Mhacha. |
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12 Dec 03 - 04:40 PM (#1071155) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,Ken's OK English patriot.......Keep your barnet fair on. I never said I felt superior to anybody, surely that's your department? I said I was proud of being a Londoner. Two completely different things. Our friends obviously differ too.......the majority of mine are like myself, first generation here.Whether their parents hail from Italy, Greece,Poland, Carribean etc etc etc. They too feel connected to their parents roots,for the following reasons maybe, we were brought up celebrating St. Patrick's Day, perhaps because our parents were far from home, it was important for them to impart their history to us, which they did, maybe it helped them retain their identity. I, like many others, sat and cringed at the openly racist jokes,mainly targeting the Irish and Blacks, told with great gusto by "the English"....bigots being intellectually challenged are often unable to differentiate between being white, and being English.......aahhhh bless them, they assume they are in safe company if all the faces are the same colour.Of course they would temper their patter if anyone slightly tanned enetered the room. I think Ken embraces all cultures, and puts equal importance on them all too.....London is thankfully multi cultural and is blessed by it's rich diversity, however that can often leave the bigot feeling threatened. They fail to see why their englishness does not place them on some red, white and blue pedestal....they hanker after the good old days, when the only takeaway sold fish and chips, and the pubs were still able to put signs in the windows stating, " No Irish or Black". How very welcoming. Having worked extensively in many European countries, I can also confirm that if there is a drunken twat, either urinating in someones garden or vomiting on the pavement, he invariably has a pair of silky union jack shorts still unpacked in his suitcase. Many English travel companies have a member of staff in each resort, who's sole job is to try and interpret for the inebriated Brit, who has woken up in a foreign cell, unable to remember why they are there? No other Euroopean company had even trained their staff for this eventuality........as it was not a problem amongst their clients. These are just some of the reasons why I am not proud to be English. Note..I have not even started on the football fans, how very proud you must be to have them representing your country abroad. |
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12 Dec 03 - 10:47 PM (#1071352) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot The English hooligan is the bane of all Englishmen the world over, including the diaspora living abroad, and it is typical you and your type should label us as holligans; but think about it. This is ENGLAND. The ENGLISH in England are the indiginous people. They are not foreigners who have come here for what ever reason. This is their country, the country of their ancestors, their mother country, the country that they love for no other reason than that it is their country. I am not defending racisim, whether it is the BNP variety or jokes makes against the Irish, which I do not tolerate. But all races are not of a equal footing in England. As the Irish feel that Ireland is of particular importance to the Irish then surely England is of particular importance to the English, whose country, after all, this is. This, I feel, is not asking too much. Livingstone, in my opinion, divides people of ethnic origin against the country that many of them were born in. If you dont owe loyalty to the country you were born in, then you owe it to some where else and Livingstone plays on that to his own electoral benifit. And yes, Ken's ok, in my opinion, you are smug. I'm sorry to say it but by distancing yourself from the rest of England, you are giving yourself a moral superioty over over Englishmen. As an Englishman, I feel embarrassed by the behaviour of some of our louts, but the majority of my fellow coutrymen that I have met feel the same. Are you saying that we are all louts? The satisfaction that you tell everyone that England alone has a problem with drunken hooigans rather suggests that you yourself have a racist attitude to the people in whose coutnry you were born in. This is smugness, pure and simple. You have a sanctimonous attitude that smacks of social superiority. I have met Englishmen and women, good people, who put local differeces aside and stand shoulder to shoulder with their fellow patriots. Maybe, just maybe, this is not the coutnry for you and that you should think of relocating elsewhere. As an Englishman, I feel that I have the right to stand up for MY people. If you have a problem with that, then nothing that I will say will change your mind? That is obvious. |
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12 Dec 03 - 10:52 PM (#1071353) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot ARD MHACHA: In a thread that was about the televised drama about Boudecea ( I may have the spelling wrong) you did slag off your English wife. This I do remember. This, I am sure, you do too. |
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12 Dec 03 - 11:40 PM (#1071369) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,Ken's OK English Patriot.....glad to see I struck a nerve. |
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13 Dec 03 - 04:36 AM (#1071420) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot Foreigners who come over to my country and who fail to show respect to my fellow countrymen and women will always, without fail, piss me off. Glad it gives you satisfaction. |
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13 Dec 03 - 07:06 AM (#1071448) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Gareth Yup, dem foriegners like the Romans, Angles, Saxons.Normans etc. Garydd |
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13 Dec 03 - 07:34 AM (#1071457) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: ard mhacha Who is this English Patriot?, he keeps on about my English wife, believe me, residing somewhere in England is the luckiest lady on the Planet, and wherever she is, may she thank her God, that she missed me. Gareth, Hope you seen the Cardiff v Leinster game at the Arms Park last night, it was a cracker, played in pouring rain, these two sides defied the elements with a superb game. Ard Mhacha. |
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13 Dec 03 - 11:44 AM (#1071550) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Gareth Ard M - Unfortunately no, I had to collect the aged mother, and No 1 sister from the General Station, just by the Arms Park. But I can confirm the weather was hissing down. It took me an hour to drive the 17 miles back to Ystrad. Gareth |
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13 Dec 03 - 06:47 PM (#1071760) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot Gareth,I fail to see your point. Throughout this thread I have simply been advocating a mild nationalism of a type that is possible in Scotland, Ireland and Wales but is deemed unacceptable here. I call myself a patriot because that is what I am. |
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13 Dec 03 - 07:18 PM (#1071772) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Gareth Sorry Patriot, Lets put it another way, Define English ! Gareth |
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14 Dec 03 - 03:48 AM (#1071917) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot Gareth, I will define nationalism. Nationalism is a collective memory, culture, language, experiance, identity and geographical location. You can apply it to everyone everywhere. Ad H. I have got you mixed up with someone else. Please accept my apologies. |
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14 Dec 03 - 04:17 AM (#1071930) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Hrothgar Thread drift: From McGrath's link above: It was one of the most patriotic scenes witnessed in the capital since the victory parades of Admiral Lord Nelson who famously said "England expects" . He stared down impassively from his column in Trafalgar Square yesterday. Tell me more about Nelson's victory parade?????? He did have a fancy funeral, though. And, further to comments above: English soccer fans might have a stinking reputation, but the Barmy Army following the cricket are very well regarded in Australia and the legion of fans here for the rugby were remarkable for their good behaviour. I think it might have been the same even if they had lost ... |
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14 Dec 03 - 05:05 AM (#1071946) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Jim McLean I have no problems with English nationalism, it's their Imperialism which bothers me, for instance when The Barmy Army or whatever group of English fans wave the Union flag with England emblazoned across it. The use of St George's flag is to be encouraged. They don't seem to realise that England, along with Scotland, lost its independence almost three hundred years ago and is not a nation state. They have no individual parliament nor individual monarchy but behave as if they have. They cannot think in British or UK terms .. ask an Englishman to name a city in the N(n)orth and he'll probably answer Manchester or Newcastle. Ask a Scot to name a city in the S(s)outh and he'll probably say London ... or Manchester! The monarchy has always taken English titles rather than British. The sooner England learns the difference between Britain and England the better for all concerned. |
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14 Dec 03 - 11:05 AM (#1072007) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot Jim, I wouldn't disagree with your comments. I, too, have a problem with English imperialism. I think the first step to take with English nationalism is to keep it English and not get it confused with Britishness. The second step is to show respect to our neibours: Scotland, Wales and Ireland. However, I do feel that you are being unfair in stating that the English have little knowledge of Scotland. Talk about the NOrth and they will think you are talking about the NOrth of England; but if you talk about Scotland, they will be able to rattle off the cities and towns of Scotland and be able to pinpoint them on a map. And yes, most of us know you invented the 20th Century as well. |
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14 Dec 03 - 12:41 PM (#1072097) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Jim McLean You have made my point exactly. You always think we are talking about England. Even the BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) from the North = North of England. When the media talks about 'this country' it can mean Britain or England and is completely confusing for non English listeners. When I see any reference to the north in a 'national' newspaper (and I mean the Gusrdian and the Telegraph) I can safely assume they mean the north of England. When did London become the capital of the UK? And who decided upon this status? I would like to see England with a parliament and possibly a con-federation within the UK rather than the present Anlgo centric setup we have at the moment otherwise Scotland should break with the UK and join Europe as an independent country. I'm assuming your last sentence was a compliment to our invention achievements but don't forget your which are quite numerous. |
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14 Dec 03 - 02:47 PM (#1072198) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot You are right. It was meant as a compliment, not sarcism. Britain is Anglo-centric, mainy because of Britain's history, which I wont go in to. As much as I am fond of the union, I think it's moment has come and gone, and all the countries that make up the union should break away and set up on their own. Its going to come and so we might as well accept the inevitable. It only needs a political crises to force the hand of the Scottish Assembly to declare Scotland independent from Britain. Wales would probably soon follow. This is why I believe it is important for Englishmen and women to start thinking of themselves as being English. However, to go back to your point, I never think of people of Scotland as being North Britons, but as being Scots.I always think of Northerners as being from Northern England as against Southern England. I think we may being wandering into semantics, which, ofcourse, doesn't invalidate your point one bit. |
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14 Dec 03 - 03:08 PM (#1072217) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Jim McLean Merry Christmas, Jim |
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14 Dec 03 - 03:55 PM (#1072241) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot Ken's ok. You have gone quiet, which is a pity as I think you have raised some good points, to which I have retorted, but to which you do not reply. |
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14 Dec 03 - 06:59 PM (#1072388) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot A merry christmas to you too, Jim. |
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14 Dec 03 - 09:38 PM (#1072514) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,Ken's OK English Patriot........I have been up to neck in baubles, fairy lights and spray snow, sad but true. In the middle of which we had to purchase a Swan Lake Barbie,not easy to find, apparently swimming off the shelves. Congratulated myself by opening the first box of chocolate covered Brazil nuts of the season, and now feeling suitably stuffed, sitting down to appreciate the twinkly grotto that was yesterday my front room. I just think we hail from very different planes. I think of respect as something that humans earn AFTER they are born, it is not a birthright. I think of men and women as fellow humans, all deserving of the same level of respect,if earnt, regardless of where they were born, or find themselves living thereafter. Nobody and no country is perfect, beyond reproach etc. I would not condone/defend unsocial behaviour just because it is exercised by people bearing the same passport as myself.I do not blanketly respect my fellow countrymen, I respect the individuals who make up the population, wherever they have originated from. London has a vast transient population, which is maybe why I am not so hung up on peoples places of birth, I find the diversity refreshing and interesting.And the fact that these people are encouraged to celebrate their roots, can only enrich our lives, it is good for the soul to be reminded we are only a very small part of a very big picture. And as for relocating??????? Why on earth would I do that? I love London and feel lucky to live here.Whenever friends from abroad visit, I am always proud to show them the sights, knowing they will be accepted and welcomed regardless of ethnic origin. I have had many wonderful times myself from Cornwall to Edinburgh, but have also seen firsthand the reactions of some "locals" in farflung corners of our green and pleasant land to visitors from overseas, and I was embarrassed and ashamed. I do not expect you to understand or agree with me, these are my opinions, based on my experiences, and as such are as valid as your own. |
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15 Dec 03 - 04:54 AM (#1072661) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Beverley Barton Home rule for Cottingham!! |
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15 Dec 03 - 07:01 AM (#1072727) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Dave Bryant Hrothgar - Nelson did have a couple of victory parades. One at Yarmouth when he arrived home from the Nile and Naples excursions - the sailors and fishermen unharnessed the horses from his coach and puklled it themselves. He also had another one after Copenhagen - this time in London. |
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15 Dec 03 - 11:06 AM (#1072930) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Dave the Gnome I heard some complete nincompoop (Don't you just love that word:-) )on the radio the other day. "Winning the world cup is a wonderful achievement for Britain!" What? Did we have Irish, Scottish and Welsh men on our team? Are they suggesting that our neighbours helped us to win? I am English and proud of it. Just as much as I am Mancunian and proud of it. Or am proud of my Polish, Russian or Welsh ancestry! In answer to the original question - I don't know why he was boo'd either but it was probably a combination of his attitude towards the English and just that fact that all politicians are fair game;-) Cheers DtG |
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16 Dec 03 - 02:20 AM (#1073302) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot Ken's ok, it never ceases to amaze me that people like you just love to celebrate racial diversity and look down on racism, and yet you would deny the English the right to celebrate their racial origin and look down upon them (us!) as nothing more than a bunch of foul mouthed, lager swilling louts. I wonder how you would feel if I made a similiar dismissive remark about the Irish being thick, the Jews being mean, or blacks being muggers? Afterall, my mother is English: is she a yob? In your eyes she obviously is. I am not arguing for special treatment for the indiginious people of England. There should be equality before the law for everyone. No-one is arguing against that. However, if people are being encouraged to celebrate their racial identity, their background, and culture, why should the English not do the same. This is, afterall, their country. Why should they sit back and allow themselves to be sidelined like this. And anyway, just out of curiosity, how long does it take for someone to become a part of the country that their ancestors freely chose to move to? You say you are London Irish (whatever the hell that means!) Will your children feel that way, or your grandchildren, or your great grandchildren? In other words, when are you going to stop being snooty about the indiginious population and consider yourself to be a part of them? If I went to live in France, I would never be a frenchman; but my children would be. I would not show the utter rudeness, the complete discourtesy, of encouraging my children to think of themselves as being above the local people. That is the price of immigration. You assimilate into the local population. I would do it. I expect the same from others. This is why I think you should relocate. You don't like us. You consider yourself to be better than us. This obviously is not the country for you. Please, in the name of God, just go. |
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16 Dec 03 - 03:19 AM (#1073313) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: ard mhacha Good on you EP,would I have your permission to use your comments in a reverse sense and pass them on to the uniformed, armed to the teeth, brits in this fair land. Ard Mhacha. |
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16 Dec 03 - 04:00 AM (#1073325) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,Taxpayer Well done EP. You have argued your case for Englishness with a small e against an almost overwhelming pile of left wing posts. Much has been made of our football hooligans. Well, every country has it's rabble. Unfortunately our rabble have money in their pockets and are therefore moblie.A stronger sense of national pride and identity would help to subdue such tendencies.A stronger Police force unhindered by Touchy feely laws could certainly keep the lid on them, but the Police have no teeth. If the attitudes expressed above were prevalent in 1939 the Germans would have taken over this country in minutes! Stop biting the hand that feeds you and show some pride! |
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16 Dec 03 - 05:41 AM (#1073358) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,Ken's OK English Patriot....you just can not get your head around this one can you? Because I refuse to collectively forelock the entire English population.that means I feel superior....WRONG. I afford everyone the same respect, regardless of their origin. If you are unable to accept every country has it's share of unsocial citizens..then you are blinkered. Maybe everyone who doesnt agree with you should relocate? Ha Ha that is excellent.......1939 you mentioned? Indigenous english? Thats good, we can round you all up, put you in a quaint olde english village workshop, and send coach loads of camera touting tourists to snap you weaving wool? Thankfully your opinions seem to be dying out amongst the younger generation, they are more in tune with being part of the World, as opposed to part of their own backyard. Everyone should be encouraged to celebrate their roots, why do you think that doesn't include the English? The reason why London works so well on a cultural level is, because thankfully the majority of people living it, do not hold opinions such as your own. Please feel free to visit, and see how popular your thoughts are amongst Londoners. Would you listen to your fellow english men telling you to wise up, and get global maaaan. Slainte. |
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16 Dec 03 - 06:49 AM (#1073396) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: ard mhacha EP, we really love your ever so nice civilian tourists. Ard Mhacha. |
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16 Dec 03 - 06:14 PM (#1074055) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot Ard Mhacha. I gather you are refering to the Northrn Ireland situation (notice how I avoided refering to it as the Northern Ireland problem?) This needs another thread and I am not going to refer to it here. Sorry you feel the need to be so sarcastic about English visitors to Ireland. For what it is worth, my English freinds who have been to Ireland have spoken very warmly about the country and the people. Thank you for you comments, Taxpayer.I sometimes feel like General Gordon at the Seige of Khartoum. Next time you pop in here, you will probably see my head on a stick. I agree with you that we need a stronger sense of national pride and identity. To think of ourselves as a collection of disparate racial groups, each with its own agenda, is a passport to disaster, especially if you have someone like Livingstone who is skilled in exploiting these groups. A nation divided against itself is a nation not at ease with itself. Ken's ok, I have no trouble getting my head round this, if by 'this' you mean, as I do, English national pride and identity. I am not asking for English people to be treated differently. Ofcourse people should be treated for whom they are rather than because of their ethnicity. I have not being arguing this. What I do believe is that each country has it's own character, history, collective sense of being, if you will. If I mention Scotland, the mind automatically refers to things Scottish. The Scots realise this and take pride in it. The same can be said for the French. You say the word France and you immediately think of intellectuals sipping cafe au lait on the Left Bank, the Eiffel Tower, the french language, it's literature and music. And yet you would deny this for England. Do not the English have the right to define themselves as they see fit and to pass this on to the next generation? When I think of England, I think of our rich folk music, writers such as Hardy or the Brontes, Coleridge or Chaucer, the patchwork makeup of our fields and the bawdy humour of the Carry On films - perhaps I should make the last one the gentle humour of the Ealing films. OK, there is a lot of wishful thinking and romance in this picture. I know that there is a depressingly uniformity in the Town Centres and English weddings are boring beyond belief. But an Irishman toasting Ireland on St Patrick's Day will be toasting an Ireland of the imagination rather than the real one, and there is nothing wrong with that. It is important to have a good image of yourself, otherwise you have a negative view. This is why I think it vital for this country to embrace (not too tightly, but embrace it anyway) English nationalism. This has to be all embracing, including the ethnic minorities who live here. If they carry on celebrating thier differences, they will, generation by generation, become divorced from the country they were born in. They will give their loyalty to a foreign country that they will, slowly but surely, have nothing in common with and which would not recognise them as one of their own. By the way, I know what Londoner's think. I am a Londoner. My freinds are Londoners. A lot of them agree with me. Some agree with you, but those that do come from ethnic minorites. Livingstons's divide and rule tactics are paying off. Nationalism expresses itself in this country through sport. Look how happy and crazy we were when England won the Rugby, a game few lke or understand. It was an excuse to express national pride. There are precious few other outlets for it. Taxpayer, take heart, it is there to be tapped. I do have a sense of the outside world, but to understand that world, I need to understand my place in it, and that is, for better or worse, as an Englishman, for that is how the world sees me. So Ken's ok,what is it that I don't see? |
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16 Dec 03 - 06:52 PM (#1074070) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,Ken's OK EP...aarghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I have at no point said that the English do not have the right to celebrate their culture??? I said that I feel privileged to live in London, where EVERYONE is encouraged to celebrate their roots........if your roots do not lie in England, they won't be the ones you are celebrating? This is not showing disrespect to the English in any way, shape or form, instead it is showing respect to OUR parents and forefathers, or did they hand over the right to that when they boarded the boat? TAXPAYER.................year ending 2003 I was assessed in the higher income bracket and therefore fell into the higher tax paying threshold, does that mean my opinions are worth twice as much as yours? |
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17 Dec 03 - 04:22 AM (#1074331) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Jim McLean Your imperialism is showing again, EP. The Ealing Comedies were part of the British film industry and not exclusively English. Alastair Sim English? The Brontes had an Irish father (slainte Ken's OK). Stick to Morris dancing, warm beer and cricket and you'll be safe. Have you ever heard the song 'The Captain and the Kings'? (Brendan Behan) Cheers, Jim |
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17 Dec 03 - 04:42 AM (#1074343) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,Tax payer I say again, stop biting the hand that feeds you. The left wing element here are getting over excited as usual! EP's original point was simply that- wouldn't it be nice if we were allowed to be English and wave the flag a bit. Obviously that is not possible nowadays. Ethnic minorities are catered for more than adequately in this country. where else in the world do minorities have so many automatic rights? " When in Rome, do as The Romans do!" |
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17 Dec 03 - 05:03 PM (#1074786) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: ard mhacha Sorry EP if I came across as sarcastic about English tourists, I have met a lot of English tourists and I have nothing but praise for them. Meeting armed to the teeth English soldiers is quite a different story, and anyway we will stick to the main topic and it`s Ken for a return to the Labour party, he will be a change from the brown-noses that crawl after Tory Blair. Ard Mhacha. |
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18 Dec 03 - 02:25 PM (#1075571) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot Alistair Sim not English? I didn't know that. Next you will be telling me that Ronnie Corbett isn't English. Point taken though, Jim; however, I was thinking of the Englishness, if you will, of 'Passport to Pimlico' rather than of all the nationalities of the people who made it. 'Trainspotting' is a great Scottish film even though it was not just Scots who were involved in it; unlike 'Braveheart' which is pure Hollywood, and therefore American. As for the Brontes, well, even their name suggests that their blood might be less than pure Anglo-Saxon. This, however, just proves what I have been arguing all through this thread. You are whom you are because of where you are born. If the Brontes had been born in Ireland and had written about the landscape of Ireland with such passion, they would be considered great Irish writers, even if their father had been English. I have not been arguing for racial purity here, just loyalty to the country into which one is born. I am afraid I am woefully ignorant of Behan, although I know he was involved with the folk scene, wrote plays and the autobiography 'Borstal Boy.' So no, I do not know the song. As for warm beer and cricket.....please; although I am the only Englishman I have ever met who actually likes Morris Dancing. A M, sorry if I misunderstood you. Ken's ok, you may not have said that the English should not be able to celebrate their national identity, but you were dismissive of them as a people -drunken louts, etc. - and so were suggesting that they had nothing to celebrate, unlike the other ethnic groups in London who, according to you, make London a good place to live in. You then referred to yourself, rather ridiculously in my view, as London Irish, rather than English, even though England is the country into which you were born and which gave you all her benefits. This, I must admit, pissed me off a fair bit. I'm not asking you to get on your knees four times a day and kiss the soil of England, but a bit of gratitude would not go amiss. By the way, what makes you think that you are in a higher tax bracket then Taxpayer, and if you are, so what? |
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18 Dec 03 - 05:09 PM (#1075666) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: ard mhacha EP,This may be news to you, the Brontes father changed his surname from Prunty [a good County Down name] to Bronte, what difference this made to his standing in Englands fair land, only the good man could have told us. And sorry for butting my neb in again, but isn`t wee Ronnie Corbett Scottish?. Ard Mhacha. |
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18 Dec 03 - 05:14 PM (#1075668) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: ard mhacha Confirmation the wee man was born in Edinburgh. Ard Mhacha. |
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18 Dec 03 - 06:52 PM (#1075730) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot I know Ronnie Corbett was born in Scotland. It was a small joke.(Small-geddit? Ronnie would approve.)As for the Brontes old man, well, I think he was popular enough in his local community. His sermons shook the rafters with his proclamations of fire and brimstone. However, I didn't know about the name change, so thank you for that. Wuthering Heights by Emily Prunty, eh?...Just doesn't sound right. Next you'll be telling us Ullyses was written by James Jones. |
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18 Dec 03 - 07:58 PM (#1075786) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: Jim McLean Remember the line 'If you're born in a stable that doesn't make you a horse'. I have always believed that nationality is a state mind. Jim |
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19 Dec 03 - 07:52 AM (#1076080) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: ard mhacha A wee bit of further education for EP, Prunty, An Ulster Gaelic surname appearing in the seventeenth County Monaghan Hearth money rolls as O`Prunty, Hyde in his Literary History of Ireland expresses the opinion that the ancestor of the Bronte sisters was Patrick O`Prunty, the Ulster Gaelic poet, their father was Rev Patrick Bronte, who was the son of Hugh Prunty, a small farmer in Co Down.. All of this a long way from Rugby and Ken L. Right you are Jim McLean, I could say that about some of the horses I have backed. Ard Mhacha. |
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21 Dec 03 - 08:00 PM (#1077517) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot And what about on the mother's side - was she Irish, too? |
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22 Dec 03 - 05:34 AM (#1077697) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: ard mhacha Yes, she played mid-field for the Down Camogie team. Ard Mhacha. |
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22 Dec 03 - 05:21 PM (#1077978) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,An English Patriot Ho! Ho! Don't give up the day job, AM |
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23 Dec 03 - 11:48 AM (#1078517) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST,tom guest Just to point out that the Irish invented booing . |
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13 Jan 06 - 05:25 PM (#1648142) Subject: RE: BS: Livingstone booed at Trafalgar Square From: GUEST Sounds Right to me thats my name. EMILY PRUNTY |